How did the U.S. reform cult-like, Fascist nations Japan and Germany after WWII?

[Yavin4]

The answer to that question provides us with some of the answers for dealing with the Trump cult.

[cilla4progress]

1. Please reframe your q -

Not quite following?

[jpak]

2. ...

[Yavin4]

3. I changed it.

Is it better now?

[cilla4progress]

16. Yes - got it.

Commented on your post on other thread, as well.

This will be a productive convo! Thanks!

[NCDem47]

4. Novice answer...

We helped rebuild their countries and economies and provided opportunity. We didn't treat the citizens-at-large as prisoners or beat them into submission. Promoted democracy. Maybe there was something we did overtly and covertly to heavily influence their politics to steer them to Western thinking and assimilation.

[Klaralven]

5. By imposing military dictatorships

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. We gave them constitutions that are a lot better than ours.

[zonemaster]

7. More specifically, through a deliberate program of Denazification

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification

[hunter]

8. Both nations emerged with constitutions lacking some of the flaws ours has.

Furthermore people were exhausted by war, grieving their losses, and willing to accept new approaches to government.

If I was repairing our own constitution I'd eliminate the electoral college and significantly reduce the power of the senate.

Culturally, I'd discourage the romanticizing of rural and semi-rural lifestyles. There is NOTHING romantic about factory farm pork, poultry, or dairy products, there is nothing romantic about fracking or coal mining, but these industries have far too much political power because of unequal representation arising in the electoral college and senate. Rural votes have more weight than urban votes.

Traditional U.S.A. anti-intellectualism, much of it arising from anti-intellectual religions, is another problem. For any progress to occur government must be aggressively secular. Anti-intellectual religious beliefs cause a great deal of pain, suffering, and death in this nation, and it's not just the Evangelical Christian religions of the radical right. The left has its own versions of destructive anti-intellectualism, often dressed up as some kind of spirituality.

[theaocp]

34. +1 n/t

[RazzleCat]

9. not a historian

So grain of salt. Different places, different plans.

Germany
1. Removal of Nazi's from power, and all public life. Trials of the worst, penalties for continuing to espouse the beliefs. If I remember correctly this included media, so newspapers who were posting pro Nazi oped's were also closed, fined etc.
2. Economic assistance, lots of economic assistance.

Japan
1. Removal of the belief that the Emperor was like the pope. This was a huge issue, to remove the "god" status while keeping the "royal" status.
2. Again economic support.

In both cases there was a concentrated effort to remove and stigmatize persons who were in charge, as well as removal of the philosophy that they taught to the public. While working on the "ego" of each country there was also massive economic assistance to avoid the WWI situation in Germany.

[Dem4Life1102]

11. Plus in Germany

They marched everyone through the concentration camps to show them how evil the Nazis were.

[Mariana]

15. Hardly anyone was marched through the concentration camps.

That was done in only a few of the camps, and even then it wasn't "everyone" in the area, but a few dozen or maybe a few hundred of the locals.

[apnu]

24. Essentially, bribes.

And some cultural platitudes/strong arming.

Its an effective tactic. Money to get people to move away from it.

In a way, this is what fascist crotch sniffers in America want also. They're stated motivations for supporting Trump and his racism is rooted in a feeling of being left behind, or held back, as others advance.

If we invested in our people, black, white, green, or red, we'd solve this problem.

The Republican party will oppose us, their stated goal is to leave everyone twisting in the wind while those of means continue to loot everything they can because they've already made it. But if we could divert money to help poverty, we'd see fascist support in America disappear over night.

Though I am no longer a fan of Bernie Sanders after 2016, he has a point then and now: Investment in the under serviced is a key component to fixing social problems.

[greenjar_01]

10. Unconditional surrender, money, and executions

Seriously, that's it.

They were also so badly beaten that we essentially beat the fight out of them.

[Hortensis]

12. Unconditional surrender followed by occupation and imposition

of new systems of laws on broken populations facing imminent starvation without the food we supplied.

Done to impose rudimentary structures of what WE already had before then and have had since. Well meaning, but not exactly the principles of democracy in action.

[Nitram]

13. The US didn't reform Germany. Germany reformed Germany. Japan is a completely different culture.

Last edited Tue Dec 1, 2020, 12:17 AM - Edit history (2)

After suffering a humiliating defeat, they put their heads down, their shoulders to the wheel, and started rebuilding. They have never accepted any blame for WWI and the atrocities they committed in other Asian countries. The Japanese still claim they were the victims of the war, and point to the atomic bombing as proof. China and South Korea regularly complain about Japanese school textbooks that downplay the country's role in the war. Multiple nations still criticize Japan for never taking full blame for forcing women in the countries they invaded into prostitution to service their troops. Germany, on the other hand, has taken full blame for the Holocaust, integrated a full account of their crimes in textbooks at every grade level in their schools, and the legal system forbids Holocaust denial and Nazi glorification.

[LeftInTX]

23. Agree

[displacedtexan]

29. Germany rewrote their constitution

It's a lot like ours, but they included specific civic duty requirements. We could use some of those civic duty requirements, ourselves.

[betsuni]

39. Yes.

According to my Japanese in-laws, the U.S. started the war with economic embargoes and Japan was an innocent victim.

[Chainfire]

14. The first step was smacking down the former leadership.

They hung a boatload of former Germans and Japanese leaders. That option may not be open to us today.

It was somewhat easier with the Germans and the Japanese because they realized that they had been soundly defeated and were at the mercy of the victors. Our Fascists still don't know that they have been defeated so they will be a continuous thorn in the side of civilization. I do not know how you deal with people for whom reality is a conspiracy and propaganda is news.

I mean, good God folks, Fox news is no longer crazy enough for most of the Trump folks. How do you counteract that?

[LeftInTX]

26. The Nazis rose because a group of disgruntled Germans

thought they won WWI.
Can't remember the details, but they were freaking out over the Treaty of Versailles.

[dware]

27. The ONLY good thimg I will say about Hitler is that,

unlike Pissolini, he had the guts to join the German Army and actually fight in WWI, and that's the only good thing I have to say about him.

[Nitram]

30. Bad history, Left inTX. France punished Germany so severely for WWI that they suffered severe

deprivations due to inflation and economic collapse. It is accepted by most historians that this led directly to WWII because the Germans were so badly treated. WWI occurred largely because of complex alliances and a failure by all sides to appreciate the danger of an all out war. there was no "group" of disgruntled Germans. The entire country was justifiably angry at their treatment at the hands of the victors in the war. that does not justify the rise of the Nazi Party and their atrocities against humanity, but its certainly helps explain it.

[ProfessorGAC]

35. Roughly 3% Of GDP!

After a war, with the cost of rebuilding, they had a burden of 3¢ out of every dollar!
Would be like the US having to pay over $60 billion a year for 10 years, and getting nothing back.
J.M. Keynes was vehemently opposed to the Versailles proposals, but not enough listened to him.
He predicted the economic outcomes accurately and he also predicted political chaos.
He didn't predict Nazism specifically, but he predicted the conditions that lead to it!

[Chainfire]

38. That is a good point

However, it is my theory that WWII actually began on Nov. 11, 1918. The First war was never completed, the Germans never believed that they were defeated, but both sides were exhausted and they needed a few years to breed a new set of cannon fodder.

The economic disaster brought about intentionally, by the First war peace, was a formula for bringing Fascists to power. Nothing breeds Fascism like hunger and hopelessness. Perhaps that is why Moscow Mitch has drug his feet with providing emergency funding for people affected by Covid. Desperate people are more susceptible to false promises.

[Voltaire2]

17. step one: hang a bunch of vile m'fers.

[cilla4progress]

18. Would it be helpful to also look at

other cults?

What successfully breaks them?

As to converting trumpers on the ground, so to speak: I think we work with those who still have one foot in reality, assuming they are motivated, and shun, shame, marginalize the rest. Investigate and prosecute crimes committed by those holding power in this admin.

I have no time, interest or patience for the true cultists. I had a horrifying experience with one just a month or 2 in and learned to steer clear for my mental health. I do not, however, think they should be ignored. That's part of how we got into this mess. They need to be actively shunned and shamed.

[David__77]

19. Through the powers of dictatorship.

Including imprisonments, deprivation of civil rights, as well as through persuasion through education and opportunity.

[MichMan]

20. Bombed their cities into smithereens and seized power with the military

It could work here

[Yavin4]

21. In my fevor dreams, I want Biden to send an occupying force to Florida. n/t

[sarisataka]

22. First step will be to

Bomb the infrastructure and industry of the areas you want to change. Make the goal total destruction and don't let concerns about civilian casualties be a hindrance.

Once your target population is beaten into submission, occupy the area with military forces and impose a dictatorship under a military governor.

Hold trials/executions as needed/ desired

Write a new set of laws.

Hold elections with pre-selected candidates who will support the new laws

Invest money to rebuild destroyed infrastructure and industry, contingent on continued cooperation.

Slowly return to self rule and open elections. Maintain ongoing 75 year military occupation to ensure reforms hold.

[Yavin4]

28. This could work in South Carolina.

I'm willing to give it a try.

[Nitram]

31. That's been tried (and failed) on numerous occasions over many centuries. I'm assuming your

suggestion is tongue in cheek.

[LeftInTX]

25. Our main purpose in those countries was to stabilize the region

Last edited Mon Nov 30, 2020, 03:43 PM - Edit history (4)

And prevent further war.

We benefited economically from Japan's surrender. We now had a new ally and trade partner powerhouse in East Asia. Japan had always been out of reach culturally for the US. I lived in Japan and everything we bought was super cheap, yet remarkably well made.

"To the victors go the spoils" as they say.

We had treaties and agreements
We weren't there to "rehabilitate" Nazis.
We punished people for war crimes, not for racism or fascist ideas. It wasn't humanitarian as much as stability and preventing future wars.

Keep in mind, the US knew about the concentration camps and didn't do enough for the civilians' plight during the war. As a matter of fact, Jews were not allowed to escape the Third Reich via the US. We closed our doors to asylum. Jews were not welcome here. We knew it was fascist, we knew they would die, but they were not welcome

[Nitram]

32. Good points. Our motive was primarily self interest, but it did help the beneficiaries rise above

their defeat, rebuild, and build strong economies. Which, ironically, helped them modernize while some US industries became obsolete. Steel manufacture is one example of that.

[Volaris]

33. We shot a good number of the cultists before the rebuilding began...

[doubleplusgood]

36. First, we stopped their propaganda broadcasts and publishing

One of the first rules of deprogramming someone who's been in a cult is to remove them from exposure to the cult propaganda. When we took over Germany and Japan, the fascist propaganda immediately ceased to be broadcast, published or displayed in cinemas. And, of course, it was replaced with our own "good" propaganda to promote democratic institutions. How we can do something like "de-nazification" in our own country will be a challenge since we will still have the likes of Fox News, R/W talk radio, Alex Jones, OAN, etc. spewing propaganda 24/7.

[moondust]

37. Banning symbols helped.

Illegally displaying Nazi symbols in Germany can be punished by three years in jail. The ban broadly exempts art, but which works are allowed to show swastikas, SS sig runes and such is often more a matter of the medium.
~
Germany's confusing rules on swastikas and Nazi symbols

Banning Confederate symbols in the U.S. after the Civil War might have prevented some of the ongoing divisions leading to current radicalization, but I don't know who would have enforced a ban across the large land area that was the Confederate South. Allied troops occupied Germany for decades after WWII and could have quelled any rekindling of Nazism.