So, the virus isn't even from China? C'mon, Man!!

[PubliusEnigma]

Last edited Thu Dec 3, 2020, 12:38 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9009297/How-did-Covid-REALLY-spread-world-Coronavirus-blood-samples-December.html

The CDC study is the latest in a string of global papers that smash through claims that the virus didn't emerge until December:

September 3, 2019 – Veneto, Italy: A study carried out in Italy, by the National Cancer Institute in Milan, finds coronavirus antibodies in 111 people out of 959 blood samples taken before March 2020. The first sample that tested positive was dated September 3 and collected in the Veneto region of the country. Italy announced its first official case on February 20.
September 4 and 5, 2019 – Emilia Romagna and Liguria, Italy: The National Cancer Institute study finds antibodies in blood samples taken from the two regions, which are to the south-west of Veneto.
September 9, 2019 – Lombardy, Italy: The first two antibody-positive samples from Lombardy, the Alpine region that contains Milan and was one of the worst hit places in the world during the first wave, date back to September 9. By the time all of September's samples had been analysed, 13 out of 23 that were antibody positive had been taken in Lombardy.
September 11, 2019 – Lazio, Italy: The first antibody-positive specimen found from the Lazio region was dated September 11.
November 2019 – Brazil: Analysis of past human sewage samples from the southern Brazilian region of Santa Catalina found traces of the SARS-Cov-2 coronavirus as early as November 27. In the city of Florianopolis, samples from between October 30 and March were analysed, will all samples from November 27 onwards testing positive. Brazil announced its first official case on February 26.
November 2019 – China: Leaked government documents show cases of coronavirus were being recorded in Wuhan as early as November 17, the South China Morning Post reported in March. China announced its first official cases on December 31.
...

[WhiteTara]

1. In mid December of 2019

a man who had been in Malaysia having holiday time with family and one was from China, Shanghai. On the 10th day back in the US, started getting sick and he arrived at our house in the beginning stages of illness. My partner spent about an hour with him ina closed room while I was only in and out once. 10 days later, my partner was so sick, HE called the doctor. He was swabbed for flu (negative) and given antibiotics for pneumonia. He was sick for 3 months and is still easily tired.

The couple stayed in our resort town and ate in restaurants, stayed in hotels, visited shops, and about the time my partner got sick, the virus spread around town and we had our first wave.

[Arne]

2. The ancient Chinese said it came from space.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326160954_Comets_and_Contagion_Evolution_Plague_and_Diseases_From_Space

[orwell]

3. Does this mean...

...we can start calling it the Trump Virus?

My sister and I called it Covid-45 from the beginning...

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

44. I've used Trump Virus, but I'm going to start

alternating that with COVID-45, now.

[SoCalNative]

4. Just as the "Spanish Influenza"

likely didn't originate there. They were just the only country who didn't stifle their press from reporting about it. More than likely it started in Kansas in the good ol' USA.

[leftyladyfrommo]

6. I was in the hospital in mid December in Kansas City, Mo

And they told me the hospital was full. I asked if it was the flu and they told me "no. It's some weird respitory thing:

It might have started on a farm in Kansas.

[uponit7771]

11. WHOA !! Me and my buddy were just talking about the crap that went around during KC Super Bowl

... and I was knocked on my ass for the first time by a virus.

My 9 yr old son too !!

I was whooping and hollering one second and the next minute I was sleep with the deepest fever I've ever had.

Then hacking and coughing for months afterwards

[GumboYaYa]

13. I am in St Louis. In late November everyone in my office had an illness that swept through over

about two weeks. Some people were sick for multiple weeks with a dry hacking cough, fever and body aches. No one tested positive for flu. I think I had it. I felt bad for a day and slept for the better part of that day. When I woke up the next day I was feeling fine, but some of my co-workers really suffered from it. I never thought this could have been Covid-19, but you guys' posts are making me wonder whether I should consider it a possibility.

[Auggie]

17. You didn't get tested yet?

I was ill in mid-March with what I thought was an usual cold. Got tested in May at the request of my doctor and local authorities. Turned out it was a just a cold as I suspected. But it was good to know for sure.

[GumboYaYa]

45. I never thought that it could have been Covid until I saw this post.

It did not fit the time frame.

[Auggie]

46. You can get tested now and find out of you had it then

[dmkinsey]

35. Thanksgiving weekend 2019

Kalamazoo, MI
I got sick on the Saturday after Thanksgiving last year.
I first noticed a sore throat that got worse that day until I started coughing. I thought "OK. now I'm definitely sick"
Then I had terrible fatigue. I slept most of two days and didn't feel like myself for a couple weeks.
I thought these symptoms were a lot like the virus but the time frame was wrong for it to be Covid.

[uponit7771]

10. Yep, it was people burning feces in 1918 that started the "Spanish" flu and people aren't acting too

... much different now to the current one

[Phoenix61]

5. It's the dailymail.

The Lombardy data was based on one anti-body test and has yet to be confirmed by other testing. The odds of it being there that early and not spreading is slim. Hospital records for that time frame don’t show an increase in flu like disease. I don’t check the other date but I would expect pretty much the same.

[PubliusEnigma]

9. and the CDC and the equivalent in other Nations

[Phoenix61]

12. The Italy data is from one study that checked for

one anti-body that can have false positives. Further studies have not been reported. The Brazil data is from a non-peer reviewed study that was done through special funding and does not appear to be part of any official organization.

[Klaralven]

7. Covid may have been detected in China because China has very good capabilities for detecting viruses

During the SARS-CoV-1 outbreak of 2002-2004, China experienced 8,422 cases with a case fatality rate (CFR) of 11%.

China has experienced several outbreaks of Avian Flu virus which have led to massive culling of poultry flocks. It has also experienced H7N9 Avian Flu which can jump from birds to humans. Although human-to-human transmission seems rare, the mortality rate is pretty high.

In 2018-2019 there was a major outbreak of African Swine Fever, a hemorrhagic viral disease, that killed or forced the culling of tens of millions of hogs, impacting heavily that source of protein in the Chinese diet.

As a result, China has a keen interest in viral disease detection and control. China also has a first-rate capability in biological sciences, with many scientists having been trained in the US and Europe. It now produces graduates at a high rate. Much of the lab equipment and supplies used in Western institutions comes from China.

Wuhan is one of their centers for biological research. Therefore, once the "anomalous pneumonia" became rampant in Wuhan they had all the people, equipment, and resources to investigate and identify the SARS-CoV-2 virus as the cause.

[TheRickles]

18. Are the tests specific to Covid-19, or to any coronavirus?

The common cold is a coronavirus, and it certainly existed before 2020 in places outside of China.

[Klaralven]

20. By Jan 10, Chinese researchers had determined RNA sequence of the complete genome for SARS-Cov-2

By doing a complete sequencing of the virus, they were able to determine that they had a new type of virus and not SARS-Cov-1 or one of the other coronavirus family.

The Chinese genome was posted to GenBank, where it could be accessed by other researchers.
https://virological.org/t/novel-2019-coronavirus-genome/319

By Jan 20, researchers in Germany had developed the first Real Time - Polymerase Chain Reaction test for the virus which could be used to diagnose patients. https://www.dzif.de/en/researchers-develop-first-diagnostic-test-novel-coronavirus-china

[TheRickles]

26. Thanks, KI. I was referring more specifically

to the viruses described in the OP as preceding the Wuhan outbreak (ie, before 2020) and from other countries, like Italy. Have their genomes also been characterized, and are they truly Covid-19?

[LymphocyteLover]

30. looks like it's all based on antibody data and pathology and not on any virus isolate

so no verification these are COVID19 (SARS-CoV-2). Note, there are other coronaviruses that can cause antibody responses that cross-react with SARS-CoV-2.

[TheRickles]

32. Thanks, that's good to know.

It also touches on another can of worms - how specific (or non-specific) is the PCR test? Apparently even viral fragments can trigger a positive result, so the thousands of "cases" being reported might not even be clinically significant. Very muddy waters....

[LymphocyteLover]

34. The PCR test is very specific for the COVID19 virus, but yes, the problem is that

a positive result doesn't necessarily indicate an active infection. We still need better tests but the PCR test is still the gold standard for diagnosis.

[lark]

8. We think my friend had it at the beginning of last Dec.

She got a virus that her dr. didn't recognize, was in bed for a month with severe breathing issues and took over 2 months to get well. She said this was significantly different than any virus or flu she's ever had before. It took her a month to be able to walk around the house. Thankfully her son brought her food every day and they were careful enough that he didn't get it too.

[Meadowoak]

16. My older brother passed away in January 2020 after suffering for about 2 months

From severe breathing issues and a persistent dry cough. The doctors didn't know what it was any treated him with antibiotics. In retrospect, I believe he died from covid-19, but of course no one had ever heard it yet. I believe it started several months earlier than we were told.

[lark]

39. So sorry for the untimely loss of your brother. My heart goes out to you and his family.

Sure fits with what happened to my friend and what her doctor told her he was seeing late last year.

[ancianita]

14. Your OP is from the Daily Mail, one THE most RIGHT WING sources on the nets.

[My Pet Orangutan]

15. The Daily Mail is not Batshit-Crazy RW

It is a right-orientated mainstream UK newspaper.

Here are their recent reports on Trump
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/donald_trump/index.html

For example

Donald Trump has raised $170 million since Election Day by targeting supporters with appeal for his 'defense fund' - which can actually be used to pay his personal expenses when he leaves White House

Three-quarters of every contribution goes to his new 'Save America' fund
Also used to retire campaign debt
Funds can be used for future election run or to help other candidates
Few spending limitations on such leadership PACs
Trump's legal team has racked up a series of defeats in court
Lawyer Rudy Giuliani held another hearing-style event Monday claiming fraud

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9005765/Trump-raised-170-million-Election-Day-appeal-defense-fund.html

[ancianita]

21. Arguable, by an open source site. Two quoted examples don't disprove the Mail's history.

These examples reflect its turn to report truthfully against their man who's now a loser, even by UK conservative media standards. Both the US and UK have very different conservatives, and I as a liberal, will go with Wikipedia's sources. And who said "Batshit crazy RW" anyway.

As a right-wing tabloid,[1][2][3] the Mail has traditionally been a supporter of the Conservatives and has endorsed this party in all recent general elections. While the paper retained its support for the Conservative Party at the 2015 general election, the paper urged conservatively inclined voters to support UKIP in the constituencies of Heywood and Middleton, Dudley North and Great Grimsby where UKIP was the main challenger to the Labour Party.[citation needed]

The paper is generally critical of the BBC, which it says is biased to the left.[87]

[My Pet Orangutan]

22. The Daily Mail on Climate Change

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/climate_change_global_warming/index.html

It's a mix. But nothing like RW Batshit-crazy.

[ancianita]

25. Again. No source has to be "RW Batshit-crazy" to be RW.

[My Pet Orangutan]

29. The point is 'the Daily Mail', [is not] one THE most RIGHT WING sources on the nets'

All Sides got it wrong. It is comparable to the Washington Examiner, not Breitbart.

[ancianita]

36. Who said "THE most RIGHT WING." I SAID it's too right wing to post here because of its tabloid

pro-neoliberal, illiberal history. I'll err on the side of both Wikipedia and All Sides over those here who support a right wing source.

Just because it's out of the UK doesn't mean it's not Breitbart adjacent. It is.

[My Pet Orangutan]

38. #14 You said "THE most RIGHT WING"

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14650073

And that is what I have been contesting. I personally don't quote the Washington Examiner, nor Daily Mail for anything.

[ancianita]

40. Sorry, forgot. I hear you.

That neither you nor I quote the Examiner or the Mail means that we do generally agree with those who place them on the RW side of centrist sources.

[Denzil_DC]

43. The Daily Mail is not considered a reliable source for DU's Latest Breaking News.

In 2017, Wikipedia deprecated it as a source, and this was reaffirmed in 2019, and it's classed there as "generally unreliable".

Propaganda sources generally mix in bona fide information with falsity. That's how they hook people.

And as somebody who lives in the UK, I can tell you it's regarded here as very much right-wing/populist. It's not always as blatant as the Express, which I believe is our most out-there right-wing/populist daily, but it's just as heinous (or even more so because it's not so blatant) and has a far wider online reach because it spends a lot on photography.

[soryang]

19. "We still don't know how it began"

Opinion: To stop the next pandemic, we need to unravel the origins of COVID-19
View ORCID ProfileDavid A. Relman
PNAS November 24, 2020 117 (47) 29246-29248; first published November 3, 2020; https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2021133117
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/47/29246

We find ourselves ten months into one of the most catastrophic global health events of our lifetime and, disturbingly, we still do not know how it began. What’s even more troubling is that despite the critical importance of this question, efforts to investigate the origins of the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) virus and of the associated disease, coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), have become mired in politics, poorly supported assumptions and assertions, and incomplete information.

Serologic testing of U.S. blood donations to identify SARS-CoV-2-reactive antibodies: December 2019-January 2020
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa1785/6012472

"Conclusions
These findings suggest that SARS-CoV-2 may have been introduced into the United States prior to January 19, 2020."

"suggest" "may have"

Link to tweet

[Klaralven]

23. Knowing the origin won't really help stop the next outbreak.

What is needed is better public health surveillance systems that collect morbidity and diagnostic information from all hospitals, do big data analysis to rapidly identify anomalous patterns indicating a new disease, rapid isolation of the patients, contact tracing, testing and isolation of contacts.

We've dodged bullets on Ebola, MERS, Avian flu and two kinds of SARS in recent decades. We can't depend on good luck in the future.

All it would take is a pathogen with a long latent period, high transmission rate before serious symptoms, and a high fatality rate. You could get another pandemic with 30 to 70% population reduction easily.

[LymphocyteLover]

31. A better understanding of how it originated would absolutely help prevent future outbreaks

Not prevent, but would help.

" All it would take is a pathogen with a long latent period, high transmission rate before serious symptoms, and a high fatality rate."

That is COVID19/SARS-CoV-2. I think it would be extremely hard if not impossible to have a bacteria or virus that can persist asymptomatically in most people people before suddenly becoming very deadly without provoking a good immune response.

There's a trade-off between lethality and transmissibility and SARS-CoV-2 found a sweet spot.

The original SARS was too lethal and so people got too sick too quickly.

Other viruses are much less lethal and are more transmissible.

[roamer65]

24. The flu pandemic from 1918-1920 was misnamed the "Spanish flu".

Not because it started there, but because Spain did honest reporting on the pandemic. It gave the world the illusion it started in Spain. It started somewhere else, possibly the United States.

I think SARS-CoV-2 was around much earlier than December 2019. It was just an issue of when we would meet up with it.

[Warpy]

27. It's been known fpr MONTHS that it didn't originate in Wuhan at that market

That was just the first victim, the first cluster of identical cases that brought in the virologists. It's a good thing it was in China, they've been on the alert for a SARS virus for over 10 years. They were ready.

I remember reading medical articles last November about how doctors were puzzled because last year's flu was a mild one, but deaths from it had increased.

This virus has been circulating slowly for a very long time, in other words.

No one really knows where the 1918 flu originated, although many have settled on the Kansas pig farm theory. It is more of an avian virus than a swine virus and seems to have some of the 1872 equine flu genome, as well. Most likely it had been circulating for a while and we still don't know why it suddenly turned deadly. There has been an explosion of knowledge in this field since the 1980s, but we're still in the infancy of it.

We live in a sea of viruses. Most of them are harmless, most infections are knocked down before we know we have them, some are beneficial, and a few mutate into killers. Coronavirus isn't the first and it won't be the last. A convergence of arrogance, stupidity, and magical thinking bungled this one badly and we have no one to blame but the bunglers. We are going to have to do better, the next one might have much higher death and injury rates.

[niyad]

28. A Canadian company called BlueDot used its AI algorithm data to warn its clients of a strange

flu that seemed to originate in Wuhan on Dec. 31. It had basically tracked the outbreak to the suspected market. I remember hearing about this company in March. One of the things I remember is them pointing out that over 800,000 people traveled in and out of Wuhan in December. The travel bans were a bit late.

[Roc2020]

33. Big news. So the novel corona virus

did not originate in China? just what is really going on here

[ancianita]

37. Exactly. Just what IS going on with a UK right wing source claiming to know about coronavirus.

[ansible]

41. China is threatening Australia over their investigation over the coronavirus's origins

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-02/australian-who-investigator-says-china-tensions-wont-stop-probe/12942802

Tells you everything you need to know. Of course it came from China, how the hell can you believe it didn't? Those assholes are STILL lying out of their asses and claiming they only have around 4634 dead!

[Rstrstx]

42. Oh for heaven's sake, this came from China

Its closest relative found to date was a bat coronavirus collected from a cave in Yunnan in 2013.

The Daily Mail for some time now has been covering stories that suggest it was in several places in Europe in 2019, and the Chinese have picked up on this for political reasons. Since when have tests for SARS-CoV-2 been 100% accurate?

This guy makes a good case for why Covid-19 hasn’t been circulating the globe since the middle of 2019 or earlier. Simply put, we would have known about it.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet