Paul Krugman- Romney's Sick Joke

[n2doc]

OK, so Obama did a terrible job in the debate, and Romney did well. But in the end, this isn’t or shouldn’t be about theater criticism, it should be about substance. And the fact is that everything Obama said was basically true, while much of what Romney said was either outright false or so misleading as to be the moral equivalent of a lie.

Above all, there’s this:

MR. ROMNEY: Let — well, actually — actually it’s — it’s — it’s a lengthy description, but number one, pre-existing conditions are covered under my plan.

No, they aren’t. Romney’s advisers have conceded as much in the past; last night they did it again.

I guess you could say that Romney’s claim wasn’t exactly a lie, since some people with preexisting conditions would retain coverage. But as I said, it’s the moral equivalent of a lie; if you think he promised something real, you’re the butt of a sick joke.

more

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/romneys-sick-joke/

About as angry as I've seen Dr. Krugman on his blog.

[liberal N proud]

1. Romney's plan according to his 60 minute interview would include Emergency Rooms

Mitt Romney, On 60 Minutes, Cites Emergency Room As Health Care Option For Uninsured

Video here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/23/mitt-romney-60-minutes-health-care_n_1908129.html

[CBHagman]

2. Romney has also derided the idea that people are entitled to health care.

That was part of the 47 percent video.

But in my book, people are entitled to health care. It's a right, not a privilege. Interestingly, the Catholic Church holds that health care is a right, though you'll never hear the Catholic Paul Ryan invoke that.

Getting back to Romney, from the way he talks, it's clear he doesn't understand that some people go without, are bankrupted, and/or die.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

30. He derided the idea that people are entitled to food

He's nasty piece of work, this Romney guy.

What the hell else do they want? A fucking roof over their head?

[madaboutharry]

3. The reviews of the debate

spotlight how shallow our culture is in America.

Romney wins because he was rude and aggressive.

Pres. Obama loses because he was polite and dignified.

[WinkyDink]

8. What gave you the first clue? Kardashians? Snooki? Freedom Fries?

[PA Democrat]

9. Sadly, I agree. Debates shouldn't be scored like a WWE wrestling match

where the goal is to wow the audience with a bunch of phony stunts.

[PATRICK]

56. The media is a special interest

It should not be allowed in any shape or form to participate in the "debates". However, politicians gave them this power regardless and broke the initial barrier by changing the rules and format itself for purely partisan interest. The 'deals" were meant to be broken and don't recognize the special interest("contest" means TV media profit) that horns in with some sort of God given monopoly that in truth does not even exist anymore.

We are just starting not to surrender to these false "traditions" and miserably staged events, but they still rule somehow.

[George II]

20. That's precisely how I've been describing it - "R" = RUDE, "D" = DIGNIFIED, bush taught us that!

[grantcart]

23. and manic is somehow energized and thoughtful is somehow to be avoided.

[iemitsu]

55. what if howard dean had acted excited?

[garthranzz]

37. Yes, this: a framing meme: Romney did a Gish Gallop

I felt I had been bullied, harrassed and lied to by Romney.

[wtmusic]

41. Not exactly

If you turned on the television never having seen these two before, not having paid attention to the news and not knowing their histories, you would have seen two people:

1) A confident, slightly overamped man who believed in himself and had you saying to yourself, "I didn't know things were this bad!"

2) An intelligent, analytical, yet self-conscious man whose halting speech belied a disconcerting lack of salesmanship

We know the facts, we know Romney is full of shit. But since many if not most Americans pay little attention to news (or worse, watch FOX), those who watched the debate will be hard-pressed not to vote Romney in a few weeks.

A big part of the job,in debate and politics, is salesmanship. Romney gets an A-, Obama gets a C-.

[warrior1]

4. How is lying winning?

IMO the President won on facts and his tone.

[WinkyDink]

6. It depends on one's opinion of how OTHERS perceived it.

[obxhead]

12. 90% of people are not politically savvy in the US.

In fact, I think that's an extreme low ball number. For the most part people only know what they've heard on the cable news for 5 minutes in the morning while getting ready for work.

Yes, Obama used facts, but as far as the average undecided voter at this point is concerned, so did Romney.

I know he didn't, you know he didn't, but we follow politics. If you're undecided at this point, you DON"T follow politics in any way. Those voters don't have any idea where the truth is.

Remember, Obama is a Kenyan Muslim. <---- That's how smart many people are in the US.

[George II]

21. Americans are shallow and don't recognize that he was lying

[Indpndnt]

28. Oh, course not. That's why we haven't figured out Lyin' is lying, too.

With his grand entrance at the RNC, Lyin' was riding high. Then the facts started to come out AFTER the RNC and he's been seen as a ludicrous liar ever since. Because people paid attention AFTER the event. That and Lyin' kept talking. So will Willard. And the 47% remark has a whole helluva lot more legs than one debate.

[Javaman]

26. It's not, but the debate last night was ridiculously moderated...

so facts meant nothing.

mittens was allows, as always, to wholesale lie and get away with it.

If you grade the debate on substance, then Obama won. If you grade the debate on hyperbole (which seems to be the only thing the media wants to promote) then mittens won.

In this day of reality tv, it's not the facts that count, it's the insane accusations that people at home believe to be "facts".

If there was a real moderator that adhered to actual debating rules, mittens would have lost in spectacular fashion.

[wtmusic]

43. When the liar gets people to do what he wants them to

i.e., vote for him.

Romney won.

[PA Democrat]

5. Can anyone explain how people with preexisting conditions will be covered under Romney's plan

as he claimed last night, when his plan is to repeal the ACA and wait for the states to do something on their own? How many YEARS before that would happen?

How exactly does that work Mittens? And how about the young adults who would immediately lose their insurance when they are no longer covered on their parents' plans? I sure hope none of them have preexisting conditions because they are f***ed.

Mitt seemed to be saying that insurance companies would still offer coverage because they just WANT to do the right thing and don't need that pesky little thing called regulation to put people before profits.

[WinkyDink]

7. Well, the President had the opportunity..........

[PA Democrat]

10. That was what was so damn frustrating. Mitt got away with his blatant lies.

Not just on health care, but on his tax plan , on Medicare, on Social Security, etc.

[SemperEadem]

16. Mittiot fashioned his own noose last night

that's what Obama was letting him do.

Mittiot tacked so far to the middle that he basically said "I'm keeping Obamacare". His surrogates are now going to be tied up unravelling that and dragging mittiot's message back to the right.

Don't fool yourself or be all caught up on the shiny, bright, sparkly stuff here: Obama allowed mittiot to dig the hole he's going to fall into in the next debate. The guy is on the record now with his centrist policies--do you honestly think that once all the sparkle of this night is gone and in the cold, sober morning light he's not going to have to do a huge amount of damage control to keep his lunatic fringe base and their votes in line?

Also, we got a glimpse of the demeanor of the scissor wielding fiend who held down that gay student and cut off his hair in the way in which he disrespected Jim Lehrer--and Lehrer's allowing him to get away with it is a totally other rant. We got to see how he will negotiate with foreign leaders--and he came across as an overly boorish, entitled, selfish, wealthy asshole.

With regard to Obama's demeanor: he flew into Denver at 2p yesterday. Denver has very thin air--it takes some time for the body to acclimate to it. Mittiot had been there the day before, so he had well over 24 hours to acclimate to it. Football teams don't fly in the day of the game and play there. Also, if Obama had come out swinging like everyone wanted him to, all of the talk today would have been about the scary black man beating up on the poor old white guy and no amount of substance in what Obama said would have gotten through that veil of stupidity.

I believe that Obama let mittiot fashion the noose he will put around his own neck with the next two presidential debates.

[George II]

22. I sure hope you're right. I could just not figure out why Obama let him get away with so much.

[genna]

31. Agreed.

Scary black man...for most of America...bad.

Privileged teen manic and jumping about acting as if he DESERVED his entitlement...winning for the press.

Weird foreign policy exchange where Mittens changing his mind constantly and pretend he agrees with everyone...scary thought in the midst of a crisis.

I doubt MSM are going to break apart the lies told.

[cmelo]

38. To SemperEadem

I think that the president wanted to allow the American public to get a good look at Mitt Romney. And what they saw was a over zealous man blindly driven by ambition, so much so that he ran roughshod over the aged moderator. Between Jim Lehrer and President Obama, both displaying the cordiality and graciousness--which befits a presidential debate--however that gave the field to Romney to be fast and loose with his fact-free verbal assault. Many pundits seemed to like that aggression and awarded the win to Romney, but will the American people? That remains to be seen. Personally, I think that it reinforced the opinion that Romney is a loose canon who will easily lead this country into a war.

[happyslug]

45. Some Football teams do fly in the day before the game

It is an open debate on how to handle the changes due to the attitude. One theory is to go in a few days before, and adjust. The other is just fly in, play and leave. The difference is based on the fact it takes DAYS not hours to adjust, and sometime the worse thing to do is to leave the body adjust. The Adjustment just takes to long. The Steelers had this attitude in the 1970s and 1980s, I do not know today for I have NOT read what is their attitude, but that was reported when Chuck Noll was the Steeler Coach in the 1970s and 1980s (Prior to 1969, he had been a San Diego Charger's Assistant Coach and had to go to Denver quite often and from that experience developed his policy as to trips to Denver).

Just a Comment, that being in the "adjustment" phase may be worse then just hitting the reduced level of Oxygen and accepting it. This is the same attitude to cold weather, it is often better to face if day one, then wait for the body to adjust, for it may take weeks and months to adjust.

[SemperEadem]

54. I said : "With regard to Obama's demeanor:

he flew into Denver at 2p yesterday. "

Yesterday was the day of the debate. I did not say he flew in the day before.

[ProSense]

13. Romney: I’ll Cover Pre-Existing Conditions, Obama: No, You Won’t

Romney: I’ll Cover Pre-Existing Conditions, Obama: No, You Won’t

Benjy Sarlin

Challenged by President Obama during Wednesday’s debate in Denver over how he would find insurance for the sick after repealing the Affordable Care Act, Mitt Romney asserted that he had a plan for those with pre-existing conditions.

“Pre-existing conditions are covered under my plan,” he said. “Young people are able to stay on their family plan. That is already offered in the private marketplace. You do not need the government to mandate that.”

He charged Obama with turning to “an unelected board who will decide what kind of treatment you ought to have,” a reference to an independent panel of experts created by the ACA tasked with controlling overall Medicare costs, but not individual patients’ treatments.

The only problem: Romney has made that guaranteed issue claim before, only to repeatedly have his campaign clarify that his unnamed plan for health care reform would not allow people with pre-existing condition to obtain insurance. It would only allow them to maintain continuous insurance, for example if they lose their job, something that is already in the law but often prohibitively expensive with employer subsidies. As recently as last month Romney’s campaign confirmed his policy stance.

“That is already the law,” Obama said. “That does not help millions of people out there with pre-existing conditions.

Obama went on to charge Romney with deliberately hiding his plans to repeal and replace not just the ACA but other major laws in order to keep unpalatable consequences from voters.

- more -

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/10/romney-ill-cover-pre-existing-conditions-obama-no-you-wont.php

[oldbanjo]

19. A few weeks ago Ryan explained

that the people that now have Ins would be covered for pre existing conditions the ones that have no Ins would not be covered. They took a gamble and lost. Ryan said that if you had not had Ins in the last 45 years why should you be covered now.

[Grins]

25. Been there. Failed.

The noted dog-abuser wants to give it to the states to handle, but the states have tried that and it failed.

"A new law that allows Georgians to buy health insurance plans approved by other states ...has failed to produce results: Not a single insurer is offering a policy under the new law.

"...(Insurance Commissioner Ralph) Hudgens, a conservative Republican ...said he expected policies sold in states such as Alabama, which have fewer requirements for health plans <Bwahahahahahaha! No? Really?> , to be offered in Georgia (that) would allow a Georgia-registered insurer to scour the nation and find a bare-bones plan to offer private market customers in Georgia — presumably at a cheaper price. Because the law still requires Georgia licensing and oversight, it does not create a completely free-market scenario. It essentially just allows insurers licensed in Georgia to get around the state’s benefit mandates.

"... under such a free market scenario Georgia elected officials would cede their responsibility to protect Georgia consumers to regulators in another states. ...bypassing state regulations could lead to a race to the bottom and leave many consumers without needed benefits — and leave taxpayers and better-insured residents ultimately picking up the tab for some treatments.

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/no-out-of-state-insurers-offer-plans-in-georgia/nQTQg/

"In reality, interstate sales of insurance will allow insurers to choose their regulator, the very dynamic that led to the financial collapse that has left millions of Americans without jobs. It would also make insurance less available, make insurers less accountable, and prevent regulators from assisting consumers in their states."

- Source: National Association of Insurance Commissioners. [link:http://www.naic.org/documents/topics_interstate_sales_myths.pdf|

[iemitsu]

27. for mittens "covered" means an emergency room visit

where basic procedures will be done to save one's life.
he does not take into account that the bill for the procedures will kill the patient as assuredly as the lack of care.
i suppose those with pre-existing conditions can just borrow the money to pay the bill from their parents.

[JoePhilly]

11. Mitt's lies have energized my wife. She is pissed. And she's not very political.

The fact that he could lie so easily and with a straight face incensed her.

[jsr]

14. Yep. Romney is a shameless soulless liar.

[greymattermom]

15. Mitt does cover preexisting conditions

If you live in Massachusetts. Or Vermont. He's thinking of Romneycare, isn't he? He can't seem to remember that his handlers want a different plan. A memory issue?

[cbdo2007]

18. Romney's answer is whatever you want it to be.

You want preexisting conditions? Sure, he'll do it, no questions asked (or answered) - it's covered!!! *sarcasm*

[RobinA]

17. Krugman is Dead Wrong

and has been around long enough and is smart enough to know better. The debates are theater. That's all they've ever been. Theater criticism is entirely appropriate and all that matters (barring any major blunders about Poland or some such). It's the theater that determines who "won." Rarely does either side say much of anything we have not heard before, rarely are there many specifics from either side. It's always been about who looked at his watch, who voters would rather have a beer with, who was too attack dogish, who had the most wonkery at his command, who walked around the stage in a folksy manner, who knew about supper market scanners, who was wearing the best make-up, what physical position each candidate assumed behind his dias, who sweated, etc., etc., etc.

[Indpndnt]

36. So are the big nominations at the conventions. And Lyin' came off looking great.

Until AFTER the event when he was revealed as a liar. People pay attention more than they are being credited with, especially in an election like this that matters. Anybody paying for medical insurance today knows their kids are NOT covered until they are 26 and that they will NOT get healthcare if they have preexisting conditions. Insurance trumps theater.

[porphyrian]

24. I don't agree with him that the President did a terrible job, though. n/t

[Marthe48]

29. A repub posted a 'poll'

on Facebook--who do you think did better? Click Like for Obama, Comment for Romney. As of this morning, there are 9711 LIKES, and 1769 Comments. If you check the comments, a bunch of those are pro-Obama. Doesn't look like President Obama lost anything.

[n2doc]

33. Facebook is a small subset of America

Especially Facebook personal polls.

[Marthe48]

42. Not scientific

but nice to know so many people in the subset believe President Obama did better than Romney.

[byoung6]

32. Calling last nites tv program a debate

is totally misunderstanding what a debate is. For Mitt Romney is was a truth free zone where he could run over people, ignore the format and agreed upon rules. Where he could basically throw our every promise, and policy he had been touting for months and just make stuff up as he went along I guess. Even Yahoo news had to call him out for being factually dishonest on many points. I was with Chris Mathews on the frustration with Obama. WHY didn't he look up? What was with the note taking?

[Mary in S. Carolina]

34. Obama purposely "threw" the Debate

Theory - President Obama is a world class debater that has the ability to throw a debate against marginal debater Mitt Romney. I believe that the Sands Casino owner, all of Romney's hedge fund friends, etc bet on a President Obama debate victory, therefore, making them millions with an Obama win. They could then turn around and use these winnings against Obama. Because Obama, purposely, "threw" the debate, they will be less likely to gamble in the next debates because Obama is now a "wild card". President Obama weighed the risk and rewards of doing this - remember Obama is all about the long game.

[magical thyme]

47. Sorry, but I seriously doubt that

Obama is not a world class debater, and never has been. It has always been a weak suit for him. And last night he appeared truly weary when he struggled to respond to dished out lies. He has been running the country while Romney has been practicing well-planned lies that, after months of repetition, rolled off his tongue like vomit.

Any "winnings" would be paltry compared to the money these people have and are willing to spend to take complete control of the country.

All they learned from this debate is that Romney will spew lies. Which frankly they should already have known. The next debate will be a new set of topics. I hope President Obama is more rested and better prepared for the next go round. But it is extremely difficult to come back against piles of blatant lies in a succinct way....

[Jackpine Radical]

49. But how do you decide who won the debate?

If I were gambling big bux, I'd want that pretty clearly defined. It's not as if there were a scoring system. And do you measure short-term results (the next day) or longer-term, after the fact-checkers have done their job?

[toby jo]

35. Lehrer was worthless, let em go head to head

Obama won hands down. Mitty was rude and a bully. I kept thinking how's this guy gonna handle foreign affairs? Can't see him handling people with different backgrounds, needs, desires, religions, goals....

It'd be a total 'It's my way or the highway, people' power trip.

Yeah, I'd like to see a debate with a group of people, no moderator, and no prescreening of the questions.

I loved the "Oh, well, if we give the rich ownership of even more money, they will create more jobs, and then people will be paying taxes instead of leaching". And when the rich get that money it goes just where? China, maybe, offshore maybe, sitting on their damn ledger sheets waiting for an even better get richer quicker scheme. fuck me while I'm not looking why don't ya?

[CrispyQ]

50. Holy shit, Mitts will be worse than W on the global stage!

I didn't think that was possible a few years ago, but after his international visit this past summer - no doubt, worse than Bush.

on edit: Duh! I was so overcome with horror thinking of Mitts on the global stage, I forgot to welcome you to DU!

[hifiguy]

39. Never in my life have I seen anyone lie as much and as rapidly

as Rmoney did last night. It was truly a breathtaking performance. Willard made Tricky Dick Nixon look like a veritable pillar of truthfulness and integrity.

[donqpublic]

40. Health Care Zinger Obama should have used

MR. Romney, if you think using emergency rooms for basic care is cost-effective, then you are not the business man you claim to be.

[cosmichristian]

44. ROMNEY'S LITTLE "WHITE" LIES.....

I am a white, 53 year old male who was born and raised in Iowa...I have watched the political process for over 40 years,
beginning with Richard Nixon's landslide election in 1968 (I was only 10 years old but stayed up until 200 am on a school night
to watch the returns)....the Republi-can'ts/G-No-P would like to make this issue about race and appeal to the very worst in
people...They want people to assume that Obama is a lazy, shiftless, lying Black Man who wants everyone to be dependent
on Government handouts.
Obama stood his ground in last night's debate and, in doing so, demonstrated for everyone to see that it is the Republicant candidate that is the lying shiftless I'll say or do anything to regain the POWER to impose the self-centered, greedy agenda
of the one percent upon the rest of us.
In the face of Mitt's arrogant, over-the-top, hyperactive onslaught of "white lies", Obama maintained his quiet, yet strong presence and remained focused upon how he was trying to help create a country in which EVERYONE--not just the top 1 percent
can benefit from the God-given abundance of this nation. Yes, Obama is a black man, but he represents my ideals far more than
any of the self-annointed white men in the Republicant Party....If the Republicant Party and Mitt Romney are representative
of what the "White Race" is supposed to be...then I, as a white person, want no part in the ugliness that they have injected
into the body politic.
I would rather have an honest, hard-working, black man with integrity as President of the United States, than an greedy,
entitled, unscrupulous, unprincipled, lying frat boy who has made his fortune profiting from the destruction of other people's
hopes and dreams....a man who has, as the Bible, says 'gained the world, but has lost his soul." (i.e. "what profiteth a man,
if he gains the world, but has lost his soul).
President Obama is fighting to redeem the heart and soul of this great nation and he, as in 2008, has my vote

[magical thyme]

46. It doesn't matter whether or not you think people have a "right" to healthcare

Healthcare ultimately is a matter of Public Safety and National Security.

Antibiotic resistant disease, such as multi-drug resistant Tb, staph, etc., doesn't know class boundaries. All the healthcare in the world won't protect the 1% from epidemics or pandemics if their servants aren't also protected. And all the healthcare in the world won't protect their servants, if their servants' families are not also protected. And so on down the line.

Baseline healthcare, vaccination, early detection and treatment of illness, the ability to take time off from illness without loss of income or job, all play into this as well.

Typhoid Mary mostly killed wealthy family members that she worked for. Is that really what these people demand a return to?!?

[Brigid]

51. You win.

This is exactly right. But you are thinking like Obama, not like Romney and his pals.

[6502]

48. OMG!!! I tried to watch the debate... it's too painful!!!...

Romney is a lying fucker!!!

His opening line was to package himself in all of the words that represent Obama's ideas.

Romney has been saying all along that he wants lower taxes for the wealthy.

Now, in front of everyone he said that that is not what he wanted.

I am physically sick now.

[flamingdem]

52. K&R

[Blue Owl]

53. It's an insult to debate a lying sack of shit

especially when they allowed to spew their lies as facts.

What an insult to President Obama to have to "compete" with this clueless turdsack.