General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJill Biden tweet: 79 years ago today, our nation met tragedy with courage and resilience. My father
was a WWII veteran, so I saw firsthand the selflessness that defined the Greatest Generation. May we never stop striving to live up to their example, and never forget the lives lost at Pearl Harbor.
Link to tweet
Blues Heron
(5,931 posts)AkFemDem
(1,823 posts)Its Pearl Harbor day. And shes exactly right as to how our sailors, airmen, and many local Hawaiians reacted- with great courage and valor on that dark day.
Blues Heron
(5,931 posts)Maybe it's time to let it go and stop wallowing in grievances.
Dem4Life1102
(3,974 posts)It was a strategic decision to end the war quicker which saved many lives, both American and Japanese.
Blues Heron
(5,931 posts)Here's the thing about nukes - they end lives - they don't save them.
Dem4Life1102
(3,974 posts)It was about ending the war as fast as possible without a full invasion of Japan. Such an invasion would have incurred huge casualties on both sides. In the end the use of the atomic bombs saved lives.
marybourg
(12,627 posts)who years later became my spouse. He was a newly-drafted sailor, waiting on a small island in the Pacific for the invasion. It would have been a blood-bath. The Japanese of the era were programmed to, well look at tRump loyalists. Now imagine their country was being invaded.
Dem4Life1102
(3,974 posts)calimary
(81,222 posts)And about the Jill Biden tweet - its thoughtful and elegant with a genuine, very human touch. A mighty nice change from the current issue and the whole I Write Book thing.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)and Imperial Japan...truly evil. And I suggest you read about the rape of Nanking and Bataan death march.
dware
(12,369 posts)way.
Hekate
(90,667 posts)If all you know about WWII is how it ended, you are sadly undereducated. Try looking up the Rape of Nanking. The Bataan Death March. The treatment of civilian prisoners.
Dresden was bombed to smithereens too. History is about remembering ALL of what happened. When you can do that, come back and talk to us about how that ghastly war ended.
Coda: the war ended and America led the world in rebuilding the ruins in Europe and Japan ruins of those who had attacked the rest of the world and tried to take it over.
AkFemDem
(1,823 posts)You just seem completely unaware of what Biden is referring to- youre stuck on nukes and revenge. That is not what Pearl Harbor day is about.
Those of us who hail from the island or have called it home at some point know its not just forgotten history or just some random day in history. We are not talking about ancient history either. There are still living survivors.
I was going to ask if they thought the Allied forces were too hard on the other two Axis powers as well, but Im not sure I want to know the answer. I have a pretty good guess, though.
still_one
(92,187 posts)This had nothing to do with revenge, it had to do with saving American lives
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)on our carriers too. Choices and all that.
Dem4Life1102
(3,974 posts)If we invaded, the casualties among the civilian population of Japan would have been horrific.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)He intended to kill himself rather than participate...he told me this as an old man on his deathbed.
progressoid
(49,988 posts)Seven of the United States eight five-star Army and Navy officers in 1945 agreed with the Navys vitriolic assessment. Generals Dwight Eisenhower, Douglas MacArthur and Henry Hap Arnold and Admirals William Leahy, Chester Nimitz, Ernest King, and William Halsey are on record stating that the atomic bombs were either militarily unnecessary, morally reprehensible, or both.
No one was more impassioned in his condemnation than Leahy, Trumans chief of staff. He wrote in his memoir that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender . In being the first to use it we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-08-05/hiroshima-anniversary-japan-atomic-bombs
marybourg
(12,627 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,370 posts)Theres always some bullshit revisionism around these events. Whether its Pearl, Dresden or Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
progressoid
(49,988 posts)These critiques can seem shocking today, because they upset our understanding of how Hiroshima and Nagasaki map onto modern politics. We assume that Republicans, especially those in the military, are retrospectively pro-bomb, and that liberals see the attacks as something between a mistake and a war crime. But this interpretation removes the critiques from their historical context. Many commanders in both the European and Pacific theatres resented that the bomb got credit for ending the war. They saw their own strategic efforts, including the ruinous firebombing of at least sixty-seven Japanese cities, led by General Curtis LeMay, as being overshadowed by a scientific gadget. They feared that nuclear weapons would become an excuse to cut funding for conventional armed forces: if the bomb maintained the peace, who needed generals? (Their fears proved not entirely unfoundedTrumans second Secretary of Defense, Louis A. Johnson, did try to slash military budgetsbut they eventually learned to love the bomb.) When these leaders proposed that the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unnecessary, they meant that they were unnecessary because Japan had already been bombed to dust. It was not a peacenik argument.
As President, Eisenhower remained mute on Hiroshima. He oversaw a rapid expansion of the U.S. nuclear arsenal, which grew from around twelve hundred warheads when he took office, in 1953, to more than twenty-two thousand when he left, in 1961from the equivalent of five thousand Hiroshima bombs to the equivalent of more than a million at its height. Eisenhower, in other words, is an unlikely hero for opponents of nuclear weapons. After he left the Presidency, however, he made more critical statements on the bombings. In Mandate for Change, published in 1963, he wrote that, during the alleged meeting with Stimson, he had been conscious of a feeling of depression, and claimed that he had told the Secretary of War that the dropping of the bomb was completely unnecessary. In an interview with Newsweek from later that year, Eisenhower stated bluntly that the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasnt necessary to hit them with that awful thing.
Whether or not Eisenhowers views jibe with the documentary evidence from the time, what is most curious is how inexpressible these same views would be for American politiciansmuch less Presidentstoday. The politics of the present are defined far more by the events of the late Cold War and its aftermath than by the arguments of the nineteen-forties. In 1995, a group of veterans of the Second World War objected sharply, and effectively, to a planned exhibit at the Smithsonian Institution centered around the restored fuselage of the plane that dropped the Hiroshima bomb, the Enola Gay. Much of the original text of the exhibit dealt with the suffering of the Japanese, and on historical arguments that the exhibits detractors termed revisionist. (Eisenhowers quotes about the bombing were among those they objected to.) The exhibit went forward, but in a considerably neutered state, focussing on the mechanics of the plane and carefully avoiding discussions of the human consequences. The controversy was less a debate about actual history than an extension of the mid-nineteen-nineties culture war into the nostalgic memories of the Greatest Generation. And the consequence was a polarization of opinion. Either you were for the bombings, or you were a revisionist: there was no middle ground. Not surprisingly, politicians have tended to play it safe.
Today, the polarization, at least among historians, seems to have abated considerably. There are still those who take strong views on whether the bombs should have been dropped, but the narratives themselves diverge less. Veterans no longer play as much of a role in the discussion: they are too few in number, and very elderly. It remains to be seen whether distance from the living past will open up a path to public consensus, or cause us to veer even further between the extremes of support and condemnation.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-presidents-talk-about-when-they-talk-about-hiroshima
progressoid
(49,988 posts)HUAJIAO
(2,383 posts)still_one
(92,187 posts)dware
(12,369 posts)It's easy for these Command Officers to say this, after all, they weren't going to be in those landing craft that were going ashore, they weren't the ones on board the ships that had to counter the Kamakazi's, they weren't the ones that would have to face the horrors of having to kill untold millions of Japanese, etc.
I don't give a fuck what these officer's said, my dad survived because Pres. Truman had the courage to use these weapons to shorten the war and save untold millions of lives, American and Japanese.
Hermit-The-Prog
(33,332 posts)They were headed for the Panama Canal when word reached the ship that the war was over. New course: NYC.
Here's the ship: General_M._B._Stewart_(AP-140)
And here are a couple of pages from the ship's newspaper:
R B Garr
(16,950 posts)terrible resolve. I think the Japanese admiral Yamamoto said that. He understood the consequences of unprovoked war.
Hekate
(90,667 posts)...Too turned in on ourselves yes, Admiral Yamamoto was right.
highplainsdem
(48,974 posts)lost does not in ANY way take away from the courage of the individual Americans who joined the war effort for all the right reasons, many losing their lives.
My own dad lied about his age to enlist during WWII.
If you want to debate the use of those weapons, please start another topic. This OP is about Pearl Harbor Day and Jill Biden's tweet.
BarbD
(1,192 posts)My uncle also lied about his age and ended up in Patton's army.
Point being when this country pulls together, we can overcome adversity. It's also the ONLY way we will get through this pandemic.
catbyte
(34,376 posts)invade mainland Japan with the Marines. They anticipated millions of civilians dead and my dad didn't plan on coming home alive when The Bomb was dropped. He was 21. Yes, it was a tragedy but so would've been a long, bloody brutal war. The Japanese were not going to surrender, ever. They didn't surrender even after Hiroshima. Read a history book.
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)DFW
(54,369 posts)History often turns on a dime, and sometimes we don't recognize it until decades later. If Hitler hadn't had his obsession with eradicating the Jews, he might have gotten the atomic bomb first, in which case the first city to get nuked might have been London, Paris or Moscow--or even New York.
no matrix
(17 posts)sadly, there are so few WWII veterans and families left to tell their history. I know my father suffered from many jungle diseases from being "left" by Gen.MacArthur on those horrible islands, starving,
sickly, trying to survive, for the invasion of Japan. He never mentioned the horror, until the day my brother's number came up to be drafted to Viet Nam.
"This country has taken enough from this family. I will not let my son be left to die in another jungle."
I asked my Mom, because Dad never talked about the war. She told me after he died at 63, that he never really came back. The didn't know about PTSD then.
He was a sharp shooter, spent most of 4 years in the Pacific Theater. He came home weighing a skeletal 80 pounds. My Mom flew out to CA. where the wounded arrived. They felt he would not survive. They stuffed my Dad's sunken cheeks, added makeup & uniform for their "wedding picture" at the hospital, then IMMEDIATELY off to a year long recovery. He had relapses throughout his life from Malaria, and reliving in inhumanity of gorilla warfare. I often saw my Dad, staring off into the distance, unaware of my presence, even though I was talking to him. We often took walks in the woods, and he always carried his rifle. Like movie the "Deer Hunter", he never shot it again.
They wrote every day. These beautiful love letters, of longing. They had a love for each that inspired my own marriage of 45 years next month.
The best place to get a real feel of the U.S.
A documentary film by Ken Burns, called "The War" will explain exactly where the US stood after the events of Pearl Harbor.
https://kenburns.com/films/war/
vlyons
(10,252 posts)I wonder if he even knows what it is?
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Lonestarblue
(9,981 posts)The contrast with the one currently holding the title could not be more drastic. She has been perhaps the most useless First Lady in history. I dont believe weve had a First Lady who did absolutely nothing for four years.
cstanleytech
(26,289 posts)BobTheSubgenius
(11,563 posts)You have to look hard to find things "good" about that day, but this quick thinking and leadership was certainly one of them.
Without the captain on board - in fact, only 3 other junior officers on hand - a junior officer quickly realized the catastrophe, and took it upon himself to try to save the battleship Nevada. He managed to get it underway (not single-handedly, obviously) and made a run for open ocean where the ship would have a chance.
He did, in fact, save a capital ship and received the Navy Cross for his efforts, and later retired as a vice-admiral.
panfluteman
(2,065 posts)He negotiated many truces and cease fires with Japanese troops on Pacific islands. After the war, back in the 70s, he was even featured in a Japanese TV program featuring a reunion with his old Japanese counterpart on one of those islands - Akashima, the red island. The TV show took both of them back to the island where it happened to remember and retell the events. Growing up as a kid in Japan, I was always struck by the profound "mea culpa" purging of collective guilt for the Pearl Harbor attack, but at least the Japanese are capable of humbly admitting their error and totally reforming themselves in a radical about face as a result.
keithbvadu2
(36,786 posts)Trump: "Happy Memorial Day" to Japanese military.
Trump thought of Pearl Harbor when Obama was in Japan.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212134070
Donald recognizes the ultimate sacrifice made by the military in WWll by saying 'Happy Memorial Day' to Japanese troops.
The Japanese military killed many, many thousands of American troops.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017542438
https://www.mediaite.com/trump/awkward-trump-wishes-happy-memorial-day-to-members-of-japanese-military/
FailureToCommunicate
(14,013 posts)Botany
(70,501 posts)"Biden plans to forgo the traditional inaugural balls and parades ..."
Just like FDR did during WW II. Damn it is good to see grown ups again.
"Sources involved in the planning tell Axios that Biden plans to forgo the traditional inaugural balls and parades because of the coronavirus, choosing instead to celebrate with close family and advisers."