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ripcord

(5,553 posts)
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 04:56 PM Dec 2020

If I don't support losing pristine desert to solar farms am I anti environment?

I forgot that I was in line at a store in L.A. and mentioned that it was sad that we are losing miles of untouched, pristine desert environment to ugly solar farms and a lady went off on me. She seemed to think that by being opposed to solar farms on public lands meant I support fossil fuels and I informed her that there were plenty of roofs in the area where the people could produce their own power and not have to disturb the desert and the animals who live there. The she really went off saying that it cost individuals and business more upfront and that solar should be out of the way in the desert where people don't have to see it. So I finally told her I was sorry and had forgotten that the people of Los Angeles were greedy fully expected other parts of the state to give up their natural resources to support them and walked out. The desert is worth protecting and we should not be giving up public lands to to support energy companies, I am so glad BLM has slowed granting permits to these companies solar should be regulated to rooftops and private lands.

41 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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If I don't support losing pristine desert to solar farms am I anti environment? (Original Post) ripcord Dec 2020 OP
There is no free lunch. Voltaire2 Dec 2020 #1
The areas benefitting from solar in the desert have proper conditions to produce their own solar ripcord Dec 2020 #3
Right. Various sets of costs and benefits to all possible actions. Hortensis Dec 2020 #11
Negawatts are always best Blues Heron Dec 2020 #2
Yes, tell people in Southern Cal to turn off their air conditioning. former9thward Dec 2020 #36
Ok! Socal - turn it down! Blues Heron Dec 2020 #37
Work that wedge, baby greenjar_01 Dec 2020 #4
Federal land in the South West is vast. Edwards AFB alone is 470 square miles in size Kaleva Dec 2020 #5
Rooftop solar should be required in Los Angeles ripcord Dec 2020 #8
the new rooftop solar law for new housing went into effect Jan 1 Blues Heron Dec 2020 #38
Or you could build one tiny nuclear plant there... hunter Dec 2020 #10
Relatively speaking, solar farms, even the biggest, are not large. Kaleva Dec 2020 #14
Oh, so that makes it all right to clear with bulldozers for solar panels. hunter Dec 2020 #28
I hate those. I hate wind turbines as well. These are fronts for the filthy gas fracking industry. hunter Dec 2020 #6
Okay,try this. Wellstone ruled Dec 2020 #7
So why aren't solar farms going up around Las Vegas? ripcord Dec 2020 #9
Two new ones are Wellstone ruled Dec 2020 #21
If we were serious, we'd be building more nuclear plants Sympthsical Dec 2020 #12
No, it is dangerous and then there is the waste issue...I would rather use gas then nuclear. Demsrule86 Dec 2020 #18
I agree with you Yeehah Dec 2020 #31
Tell me what you do support, not what you don't. Iggo Dec 2020 #13
I'm not a fan of Hydro Dams on the Skagit or the Columbia, either. maxsolomon Dec 2020 #15
Why aren't the areas using the power makng the sacrifices? ripcord Dec 2020 #17
Rooftops ARE getting PV installs all over urban America. maxsolomon Dec 2020 #19
You couldn't produce enough IMHO. Demsrule86 Dec 2020 #20
Cool story, bro. RandiFan1290 Dec 2020 #16
The problem we have here in NM is the solar produced by wind farms is going out of state womanofthehills Dec 2020 #22
Seems (not *is*, but *seems) simply self-absorbed and short-sighted rather than anti-environment. LanternWaste Dec 2020 #23
Rooftop Sgent Dec 2020 #24
"...am I anti environment?" myohmy2 Dec 2020 #25
Desert solar isn't ideal, but perhaps more practical. tinrobot Dec 2020 #26
No. Leave the desert and public lands alone. Rooftop solar. jeffreyi Dec 2020 #27
Putting them in the desert works fine for me. NurseJackie Dec 2020 #29
I'm a big fan of individual production. Arthur_Frain Dec 2020 #30
Point source generation is better and localized... 2naSalit Dec 2020 #32
Well, fortunately for desert-lovers, we'll be seeing a lot coti Dec 2020 #33
I think solar farms are a bad idea. I think they should be on roofs. That way demigoddess Dec 2020 #34
as far as cost, it could be part of your mortgage. demigoddess Dec 2020 #35
Eventually there will be a number of cities around the world running off of fusion reactors Klaralven Dec 2020 #39
Those then being the only two end-results you can envision? LanternWaste Dec 2020 #40
Rooftop solar is not magic caraher Dec 2020 #41

Voltaire2

(15,377 posts)
1. There is no free lunch.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:09 PM
Dec 2020

Large scale solar and wind have negative environmental impacts. That is offset by the fact that they replace fossil fuel power generation.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
3. The areas benefitting from solar in the desert have proper conditions to produce their own solar
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:15 PM
Dec 2020

If Los Angeles needs power they should work towards producing their own not expecting other areas to produce it for them, the sun shines just fine in L.A.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
11. Right. Various sets of costs and benefits to all possible actions.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:51 PM
Dec 2020

One of the huge costs those who didn't vote Democratic in 2016 chose for us all is that we don't now have nearly half a billion solar panels on our nation's roofs or in the works.

We're also not much safer and more resilient, not just in terms of that form of cheaper, sustainable energy itself, but militarily against attacks on our energy grids.

That choice seems to be all costs environmentally, the "benefits" all to the Republican donor classes.

Kaleva

(40,365 posts)
5. Federal land in the South West is vast. Edwards AFB alone is 470 square miles in size
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:20 PM
Dec 2020

The largest solar farm in the world is just over 16 square miles in size.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
8. Rooftop solar should be required in Los Angeles
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:44 PM
Dec 2020

But that wouldn't benefit the energy companies would it? And of course no one ever expects Los Angeles to be responsible when it comes to energy or water.

Blues Heron

(8,837 posts)
38. the new rooftop solar law for new housing went into effect Jan 1
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 08:00 PM
Dec 2020

That doesn't cover existing though

hunter

(40,689 posts)
10. Or you could build one tiny nuclear plant there...
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:48 PM
Dec 2020

... the size of a Wal-Mart and its parking lot, using stuff that's already been mined as fuel.

Large scale solar and wind projects built on previously undisturbed lands or waters are utterly vile.

You don't save nature by destroying it.

Kaleva

(40,365 posts)
14. Relatively speaking, solar farms, even the biggest, are not large.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:04 PM
Dec 2020

A 20 square mile farm, which would be the world's largest, wouldn't take up much space in Edwards AFB. Less then 5%.

The amount of federally owned land in California is just over 74,000 square miles. Close to 50% of Arizona is federal land.

hunter

(40,689 posts)
28. Oh, so that makes it all right to clear with bulldozers for solar panels.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 07:07 PM
Dec 2020


I'd rather start with parking lots.

hunter

(40,689 posts)
6. I hate those. I hate wind turbines as well. These are fronts for the filthy gas fracking industry.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:37 PM
Dec 2020

They do not make the world a better place.

An economy powered entirely by "renewable" energy would look nothing like the economy many affluent people now enjoy.

I'm a radical environmentalist. I think we should ban fossil fuels and let the cards fall as they may. I suspect people who most enjoy the many comforts of a high energy industrial consumer economy would quickly decide 21st century nuclear power plant designs are acceptable.





 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
7. Okay,try this.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:44 PM
Dec 2020

If you have ever been to the Grand Canyon,using it as a example,on our first visit back in the early 70's,there were days you could not see the opposite side because of the Power Plant Smoke obscuring the view. Fast forward to last Summer. What a difference,the air is clean and the same 1970's view and photo point was such a treat to see all the colors on the far side of the Canyon.

Fully understand ones position on the Desert. BTW,those same deserts are sinks for CO2 and absorb most of the Regions CO2 . But,our Solar operations are now regrowing vegetation and wildlife seems to be on a major come back. One needs to know,Canada is promoting dual usage of their Solar operations. Sheep and Goats are being pastured on their Solar operations as a Weed Control method.

Here in the Vegas Valley by Noon each day,the Pollution cloud used to be massive and was taken a health toll on our residents. Now with all but one Coal fired Power plant left in the state. As well as the Page Arizona power plants shut down. Out local pollution cloud hangs mostly of the Airport and that is Airplane exhaust from both Nelis Air Base and McCarron.

What a difference. Well worth the Medical Health savings as well as clean air.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
9. So why aren't solar farms going up around Las Vegas?
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:46 PM
Dec 2020

Why locate the solar farms out in the desert wilderness rather in all that area around the city?

 

Wellstone ruled

(34,661 posts)
21. Two new ones are
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:34 PM
Dec 2020

set to or are breaking ground. Both south of Town towards the California Arizona borders. Another one along highway 95 between Tonapah and Fallon. Another Solar Plant similiar to the Tonapah plant is in the permit stage. We have on of the Largest by size Solar Farms North of Vegas and that one is about to see expansion.

We do have several Counties that are Tea Bagger Controlled and they are not about to allow any type of Solar in the near future. Ignorance and Bliss seem to be the twins in control of those Counties.

Sympthsical

(10,969 posts)
12. If we were serious, we'd be building more nuclear plants
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 05:56 PM
Dec 2020

But we're not very serious yet. Ideology gets in the way of practicality. Just about every major energy scientist says nuclear is the way to go. However, because it's completely politically impossible, we do the solar/wind thing.

If you're going to do that, the panels and turbines have to go somewhere.

There are trade-offs in all things.

Demsrule86

(71,542 posts)
18. No, it is dangerous and then there is the waste issue...I would rather use gas then nuclear.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:19 PM
Dec 2020

maxsolomon

(38,718 posts)
15. I'm not a fan of Hydro Dams on the Skagit or the Columbia, either.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:14 PM
Dec 2020

Or Wind Turbines all over.

Power requires sacrifices.

 

ripcord

(5,553 posts)
17. Why aren't the areas using the power makng the sacrifices?
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:17 PM
Dec 2020

Does anyone really believe you can't produce solar power in Los Angeles?

maxsolomon

(38,718 posts)
19. Rooftops ARE getting PV installs all over urban America.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:23 PM
Dec 2020

Last edited Mon Dec 7, 2020, 08:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Cities all over are are requiring PV installs for new construction, or at least "solar ready" construction. They're subsidizing home retrofits. Were you under the impression that wasn't happening?

Wind Turbines can only go where there is wind.

womanofthehills

(10,988 posts)
22. The problem we have here in NM is the solar produced by wind farms is going out of state
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:38 PM
Dec 2020

Therefore, huge transmission lines are needed which are really ugly. I have solar panels on my roof. I used to be totally off grid but have connected to grid and on sunny days my meter runs backwards. So, here I am out in the country being energy conscious, while 90’ transmission line towers are now going across my land to take wind energy from NM to Arizona. Some of the latest transmission lines are 140 ft tall. However, nuclear is definitely not the answer as NM is becoming a dumping ground for nuclear waste.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
23. Seems (not *is*, but *seems) simply self-absorbed and short-sighted rather than anti-environment.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:41 PM
Dec 2020

But I'm sure you have the collective environmental good of the planet at heart.

Not that I know one way or the other, but do the solar and wind farms affect the environment in any meaningful negative way that outweighs their positive impacts as a whole...?

Sgent

(5,858 posts)
24. Rooftop
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:50 PM
Dec 2020

solar might be enough for single family homes if everything lines up perfectly. It doesn't come close for apartment buildings and similar.

tinrobot

(12,062 posts)
26. Desert solar isn't ideal, but perhaps more practical.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 06:56 PM
Dec 2020

Locally-produced solar on rooftops, parking lots, etc could provide a good potion of the power we need. In a perfect world, we'd already have that in place.

But rooftop solar is more complex to install and harder to distribute. Each house/business is different, so you can't mass-install. Getting power from a random roof to another house or business is also not trivial. We'd have to significantly rework the grid for that to happen. Our grid is designed to have large sources of power going downstream to everyone, not small sources of power going everywhere.

Solar panels in the desert (or elsewhere) are far easier to install. The power is also in one location, so you can distribute easily using the current grid.

So, it's more practical and can be brought online more quickly. Also, utility companies still get their cut, so the political side of it does play a role.


NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
29. Putting them in the desert works fine for me.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 07:13 PM
Dec 2020

People say kooky thing about wind turbines (they're ugly, they kill birds, they cause cancer, they'll change weather patterns, they'll stop the earth from spinning, they'll change the earth's magnetic field) but none of that happened, and the world didn't come to an end.

Everything will be fine.

The ones that freak me out are the huge mirror arrays that focus the sun's heat energy at a boiler.

Arthur_Frain

(2,355 posts)
30. I'm a big fan of individual production.
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 07:13 PM
Dec 2020

Not everyone can do that.

While I’m not a fan of huge solar farms on public land either, we still need that power. In the transition to whatever comes next, it’s a trade I’m willing to make. There’s a ton of nothing but empty space for miles along I-80, as well as a few other main highways out west. Pretty sure you could power half the nation from existing infrastructure with a few well located solar farms.

Do it responsibly, and the impact could me minimal, with new populations moving into vacated solar farm property that can be reclaimed when we have hydrogen power online, or whatever it is that comes next.

2naSalit

(102,789 posts)
32. Point source generation is better and localized...
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 07:31 PM
Dec 2020

such that widespread power failure is less likely. There are many ways that can be accomplished, not just for individual homes but for clusters of them. It's more realistic than solar farms trashing pristine environment, especially in a sensitive location like a desert, there are many wind/solar generation options.

coti

(4,625 posts)
33. Well, fortunately for desert-lovers, we'll be seeing a lot
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 07:33 PM
Dec 2020

more desert as our climate continues to change and our forests continue to burn up.

Personally, I prefer forested areas.

demigoddess

(6,675 posts)
34. I think solar farms are a bad idea. I think they should be on roofs. That way
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 07:45 PM
Dec 2020

your power does not get cut off by lines going down. And it may stop fires from lines going down. I agree with you on the land usage. Not a good idea. Put it on roofs. They have in Europe. Wind power also.

 

Klaralven

(7,510 posts)
39. Eventually there will be a number of cities around the world running off of fusion reactors
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 08:02 PM
Dec 2020

The rest of the population will be sitting around campfires roasting whatever they have managed to kill.

caraher

(6,359 posts)
41. Rooftop solar is not magic
Mon Dec 7, 2020, 08:30 PM
Dec 2020

Yes, single-family homes in sunny areas can likely cover their own electricity consumption, with a bit left over. But you generally can't power a year 2020 American city with solar using just the footprint of that city (including suburbs).

Without a radical decrease in consumption, it takes country-scale renewable (wind/solar) to power a country. It's just arithmetic.

The book is old but the basic message is well-explained and still valid - read MacKay's free book "Sustainable Energy- Without the Hot Air" to get a good sense of what's behind the tradeoffs.

Those who comment that even large solar installations aren't that big should also realize that their net production is similarly not all that significant compared to energy consumption. Solar has a small footprint today - and a small contribution, around 1% of US energy production.



To approach 100% wind & solar with consumption similar to today's requires a big land footprint. The abstract of one academic study states (emphasis mine):

The transition to renewable energies will intensify the global competition for land. Nevertheless, most analyses to date have concluded that land will not pose significant constraints on this transition. Here, we estimate the land-use requirements to supply all currently consumed electricity and final energy with domestic solar energy for 40 countries considering two key issues that are usually not taken into account: (1) the need to cope with the variability of the solar resource, and (2) the real land occupation of solar technologies. We focus on solar since it has the highest power density and biophysical potential among renewables. The exercise performed shows that for many advanced capitalist economies the land requirements to cover their current electricity consumption would be substantial, the situation being especially challenging for those located in northern latitudes with high population densities and high electricity consumption per capita. Assessing the implications in terms of land availability (i.e., land not already used for human activities), the list of vulnerable countries enlarges substantially (the EU-27 requiring around 50% of its available land), few advanced capitalist economies requiring low shares of the estimated available land. Replication of the exercise to explore the land-use requirements associated with a transition to a 100% solar powered economy indicates this transition may be physically unfeasible for countries such as Japan and most of the EU-27 member states. Their vulnerability is aggravated when accounting for the electricity and final energy footprint, i.e., the net embodied energy in international trade. If current dynamics continue, emerging countries such as India might reach a similar situation in the future. Overall, our results indicate that the transition to renewable energies maintaining the current levels of energy consumption has the potential to create new vulnerabilities and/or reinforce existing ones in terms of energy and food security and biodiversity conservation.


Many countries would need to devote 50% or more of the land not currently used by people to reach 100% solar electricity.

MacKay gives a graphic sense of this by showing North America might need something like a Texas-sized amount of solar - which would have to be deployed in sunny areas (otherwise the land required grows further still). Now of course, 100% solar is a ridiculous energy future; but it's simply not true that we can just slap solar panels on our roofs, call it good, and continue to consume at present per-capita levels.
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