Joyce White Vance: If you're tempted to write off red states,

[mcar]

Link to tweet

?s=20


If you're tempted to write off red states, remember they're populated by people of color, lgbtq folks, immigrants, women & good democrats, just not enough for a 51% majority, often in deeply gerrymandered states. Breaking up the country into red & blue states isn't a solution.
4:47 PM · Dec 10, 2020

[Karadeniz]

1. Thanks! She knows nutso psychos...I believe it was her father-in-law who was murdered by a mail

Bomb...it was on Forensic Files.

[Crunchy Frog]

2. I'm in favor of breaking up the country. People can migrate.

It's either separate from them or be devoured by them.

[niyad]

4. Really?? You think everyone has the resources to just pick up and move? Our economy is

trashed, jobs and businesses gone forever. A. Raging pandemic. How do you see this migration and separation happening?

[CTyankee]

33. It has been done. Do some research on the Great Migration, Incredible what black folks did.

They were escaping Jim Crow laws, lynching, legal segregation, no voting rights. segregated buses, and of course the daily threats to "know their place" and outright murder.

The Okies leaving the Dust Bowl and going to the Western states is another such move. They had nothing.

[Big Blue Marble]

36. Please see my post below on the Partitioning Of India.

This type of migration would be on the same scale as what happened in India
in 1947 when chaos and death ensued. These would not be people with nothing.
Many are in Blue urban areas in southern and central states. They have jobs, businesses, and
connections in their communities. They would become refugees in their own
country. This would create incredible dislocations of property values and economic
chaos. The examples you offer were people attempting to improve their lives.
What you propose would in effect destroy income, net worth, and even lives.

[CTyankee]

41. I'm afraid I don't understand your argument.

In my example people were fleeing injustice and fearing for their very lives. The outcome of the Great Migration was the reason for the Harlem Renaissance and was no mean feat for folks who had nothing to lose. Maybe I misunderstood what you mean. I will look at your example of India because there are some similarities.

[dawg day]

5. I live in a blue city in a red state

Wish they could just pick the city up and plant in a swing state!

[bdamomma]

6. Putin

would say "mission accomplished".

[HUAJIAO]

32. Right,, just a little more to go.

Saw this coming in 2016 before the election. in the spring sometime. Even earlier

[handmade34]

7. "People can migrate"?

no. many/most people cannot merely migrate

[Big Blue Marble]

9. Do you study history?

Do you know what happened in India when it was partitioned?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

This would be an unmitigated disaster and mostly likely loss of life.

[TomSlick]

25. You beat me to it. The lessons of history can be inconvenient when proposing "simple" answers.

[Crunchy Frog]

59. See my reply here.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14690408

[LanternWaste]

10. I suggest you read (or reread) the relevant consequences of the Partition of India in 1947

Those immediate consequences being multiple refugee crises, large-scale violence, vast numbers of missing people, and famine, as well as post-partition migrations resulting violence too. What precise mechanisms would be used to avoid these issues? And would those mechanisms be legal, military, or extra-judicial law-enforcement in their nature?



"It's either separate from them or be devoured by them..."
What then specifically leads you to believe there are two and only two valid options to choose from when so many additional possibilities exist?



It seems to me (not *is*, but *seems* ) that you're taking a rather simplistic, or at least shallow view, of an inherently complex problem, ignoring the inherent consequential issues. If you can objectively address the aforementioned issues and the legal/social/financial/military mechanisms used to achieve them peacefully, I'd certainly like to hear them.

[mcar]

12. Really?

What about Rs in blue states? Guess what, there are many. What about Independents/NPAs?

Who gives the order for the re-ordering? Will I be compensated and provided a job and home when I'm forcibly removed from my Florida home?

[Crunchy Frog]

53. Wow. I wasn't expecting this kind of response.

I'll just say that I'm not in any position to actually formulate or enact policy. If I express an opinion, it doesn't have an impact on anything that actually happens.

Yes, I am familiar with the India partition. No, I'm not saying that an American breakup wouldn't be catastrophic.

It's my belief at this point is that catastrophic violence, dislocation, and death is already baked into America's future. My preference is for salvaging something over salvaging nothing.

Anyway, it's an opinion, not a policy. If things aren't really as bad in this country as I think they are, then my bad.

This reply is intended as a response to all of the replies to my post. I won't have anything else to say, but people are free to continue to rant away at me.

[fescuerescue]

26. The death toll from that would be far far larger than Covid

[TomSlick]

27. Really?

I live in a ruby red state. This is home. My family is here. My professional license is here.

I served this country in uniform for 28 years.

I cannot leave my home. Neither should my country abandon me.

[mcar]

43. This +1000!

[Sucha NastyWoman]

42. It would be like having Russia as Nextdoor neighbors

[csziggy]

62. Since you're planning to leave the country, why do you care?

Hoping that Biden and Harris get sworn in, and there will be a four year respite my family can move out of the country.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14685527

I will not let these crazies drive me out of my country and the country my ancestors have lived in since 1620. I love the place I have lived for over forty years and will not leave it.

I do not understand being willing to desert our country or the majority of the citizens who have voted for Democratic candidates in the last two presidential elections because of a nebulous pessimism about the future.

I live in a very blue area surrounded by a sea of red. The best I can do is to work to keep this place blue and to help the blue spread.

[Crunchy Frog]

63. And why do you care what I think? I'll express opinions as long as I'm still allowed to.

I'm leaving because I can't see a future that doesn't involve violence, repression, authoritarian rule, and maybe all out civil war. I don't want to live in that, and I especially don't want my young sons living in it.

I don't *want* this country to break up. I just genuinely don't see how it is viable in the long term.

History is going to do whatever it's going to do. I would prefer to watch it from a distance.

If you want to call me a coward, I won't argue with you.

[oldsoftie]

64. Thats hilarious. Just GIVE the world to Russia & China.

[Hortensis]

3. This message is for the left, of course. A shame she feels it necessary.

Someone here the other day cast an intensely malicious curse on the entire state of Florida. That those she wished evil on were PEOPLE, or even that almost half, many millions, voted Democratic, were irrelevant.

[mcar]

11. That OP is why I posted this one,Hortensis

I was told it was all in good fun.

[appalachiablue]

8. Florida has been getting beaten up for a number

of years by the left, it's about the entire state, not just politics and it's messed up.

[rickyhall]

13. I hate living in a red state. My vote don't count for president.

But the cost of living in a blue state keeps me here.

[Turin_C3PO]

15. Come to New Mexico.

Except for a select few locales, cost of living is as low as any red state.

[keopeli]

31. Absolutely correct! And thank God we elected a Dem Governor last year before Covid. Can you imagine

Susanna Martinez reacting to Covid? Our state would be like South Dakota with dead bodies everywhere you look.

We are indeed fortunate to live here among the beauty, with a cosmopolitan population and a progressive mindset.

Side note: If you consider moving here, avoid the counties that abut the Texas border. They have been seeping into our state like the parasites they are. They take advantage of our hospitality, our Democratic government, our low cost of living, and our natural beauty, but being the ungrateful hypocrites they are, they do nothing but complain, whine, and stir dissention and trouble. They do not assimilate, but overwhelm local districts with fascist, populist, and authoritarian rhetoric, pointing their weapons at the innocent and sparing the covering for the racist Nazis that hide out in the foothills that Billy the Kid once frequented.

[electric_blue68]

40. NM is a beautiful state...

I took a bus northwards from Alberquerque to South Dakota back in '80 so I saw the more mountainous area.

In '79 on my cross country vacation I stayed with friends of my dad who besides driving me to visit the Native-American crafts market, also drove me close by the Sandia Mountains. As I headed westward towards Arz I got to see the more high desert terrain as well.

[BobTheSubgenius]

18. Exactly what I was thinking.

It only takes a few moments of cursory analysis to demonstrate what an unworkable "solution" dividing the country into Red and Blue spheres. The disparity in property value would only be exacerbated by an influx of Ds moving from red to blue.

[rickyhall]

20. Yup. And in blue states legalizing recreational pot, it's already happening.

My old friends in Colorado tell me rent has been steadily increasing.

[drray23]

30. cost of living is low in most rural areas.

for example in Virginia. Unless you are in and around DC , cost is low in any small town.

[BobTheSubgenius]

14. She is 100% right. Damn it.

That would be the best solution possible on a ream of other issues addressed by Rexit.

[Turin_C3PO]

16. Correct.

[trof]

17. Thank you Joyce. I'm proud to be a fellow Alabamian.

Sher is SUCH a smart lady.

[BobTheSubgenius]

19. People such as you are the reason I don't end up going off on Alabama and similar states.

There are good-hearted, well-meaning people in all 50. It's just that some states seem to have people being born with bullhorns.

[trof]

24. I was born and raised here.

Left for several years to pursue my career.
Chicago, Boston, NYC.
I never realized just how corrupt the politics were in this state until I made a pre-retirement move back in '93.
Now I wish I had stayed in NH.

[mcar]

45. Thank you for standing tall in Alabama!

[AleksS]

21. True. And it's a rural/urban division more

than a state v state division.

Blue states have huge red swathes, and red states have intense blue concentrations. (Note Nebraska where we even won an elector!)

And here in WI, for a converse example, I guarantee you there are some deplorables far more deplorable than you’ll find even in some red states.

Rather than dumping specific states, I wish we could dispose of the state concept and state borders entirely. In 1700, sure, it took days (weeks?) to travel from Georgia to Maine, and states were much more isolated and distinct. But today you can get from New York to California in hours, and you’ll find Olive Garden, McDonalds, and Walmart at both ends of your journey. Communication is instantaneous, and while there are some cultural differences, the basic human needs are the same—food, shelter, education, etc.

It’s time to just be America, and not the United States of America. It’s ridiculously undemocratic for a candidate to win the popular vote by 7Million votes this year, and there to be any controversy over seating them. It’s even more ridiculously undemocratic for a candidate to have won 3Million more votes in 2016 and NOT become President.

[trof]

29. I tend to agree.

"states' rights" is archaic.
Local government but under a federal system.
Of course it will never happen.

[electric_blue68]

46. Off the top of my head this might sound dumb...

What large country doesn't have some internal created divisions?! Canada has ?Provencies, can't remember what China has, India has States, hmmmm - maybe Russia does not (post Soviet break up).

And ?all, ?most of the smaller countries do. The Swiss have Cantons for instance.

[AleksS]

57. True.

But are they a relic of the past, are they needed now?

The answer might be yes. You could take the amount of thought I've actually put into this, and hold it in a thimble! I'm certainly no expert.

And in terms of being a viable representative democracy, you're right, it probably will always have to subdivide into smaller and smaller units, to actually distinguish representation: Nation->States/Provinces->Counties/Parishes->Municipalities->Wards/Districts, etc. but the level of autonomy within those units could certainly be balanced differently than it is now?

Probably a fun discussion to be had there. I'll have to dust off my copy of the Federalist Papers!

[mcar]

47. Soon after the election, SO talked about how sick he was of the

blue state/red state nonsense. Getting rid of it would lead to much less divisiveness, IMO.

[hurl]

22. Agreed

I live in a red state due to family happenstance 100 years+ in the past. I'm not in a position to easily move, so I'd much rather plug away for unlikely change here than to simply give up. Yeah, I'm definitely a minority for now, but I'm not alone. Sure, it's depressing most of the time, but the hope to not be written off is a motivating factor to keep going.

[Cha]

23. Rt.. TY mcar!

[misanthrope]

28. Another word for those red state denizens named in the Tweet

Hostages

[mcar]

49. Oh piffle

I am not a hostage. I am a proud Democrat who moved from the NE to FL 30 years ago and have watched it change - for the worse.

I'm not a damn hostage. Neither are the hundreds of thousands of Democrats here. What a ridiculous thing to say.

[oldsoftie]

65. I do believe thats the first time i've seen "piffle" used!! Perfect choice of word.

[mcar]

66. ...

[Caliman73]

34. We shouldn't write anyone or any region off.

What we need to do is figure out a way to move the ideology of conservatism to the dustbin of history. It is a bankrupt and failed ideology. The only reason it continues to have any pull is that the wealthiest people prop it up by buying the media and pushing out emotional propaganda.

[albacore]

38. Any suggestions?

"Conservatism".... especially the non-thinking Populist brand...has been growing, not shrinking.
As you say, the media and the oligarchs prop up the present, non-sustainable system.
I've had the same thought you have... somehow get more inclusive and try to bring people and regions back to the land of reality.

But...(there's always a "but"...)

Where do we find accommodation with people who think the world is 6,000 years old.. who think that global warming is a hoax...who think that any abortion is murder...who support trump?

Should we accommodate their views... compromise and say that the earth is only 2 billion years old?... that global warming is something we just don't mention?... that abortion is not a Constitutionally guaranteed right?

Those people aren't interested in accommodation, compromise, or even discussion. God... or trump...or something told them they are right, and any compromise goes against the laws of God...or trump...or something.

Think of it this way. How much accommodation do we get from Chinless Mitch?

[Caliman73]

52. Randi Rhodes was talking about it on her show today.

Start with doing something about right wing media. There is a monopoly by right wingers there. It should be broken up. If they want 10,000 right wing owners, so be it. But right now, there are a handful of big companies who own most of the outlets.

[albacore]

54. NOT being argumentative, but how do we do that?

Fairness doctrine? The RWNJs will never allow it. Republican stonewalling at its finest.

I've suggested that it would be cheaper and more effective for Dems/Progressives/sane people to simply buy up those RW radio stations - and their licenses - and quietly put them to sleep.

But...

The problem left then is the Web, which is a huge pool of RW shit. Uncontrollable.

[Caliman73]

58. I do not have that answer.

I know you aren't being argumentative. It is a question I ask myself. I think that part of it has to be legislative. We have anti-monopoly laws still on books. The buy back thing is a concept. Education: teaching people about critical thinking, identifying good and bad sources, and the concept of evidence.

[Joinfortmill]

35. Exactly

[bringthePaine]

37. love some level-headed discourse

[albacore]

39. Where will we find that?

90% of Republicans (Gallup) approve of trump. Only 27 of the 220 Repubs in Congress agree that Biden won.

I'd love some level-headed discourse, too. But there have to be at least 2 parties willing to discourse in a level-headed fashion.

Level-headed discourse... with Mitch McConnell...?

Riiiiiiight.

[ooky]

44. Yeah, I agree with her. I'm just writing off the red people.

Fuck 'em.

[JoeOtterbein]

48. Getting rid of the Electoral College would be...

...a big help!

[mcar]

50. That's true

But it's not gonna happen.

[JoeOtterbein]

55. We will one day because...

...yes we can!

[ecstatic]

71. if nothing else, I think this fiasco provides a compelling argument

for why the electoral college needs to end. tRump's actions have exposed many of the flaws of our system, and the idea that electors had the option of overturning the will of the people in their states is unacceptable.

What happens the next time, when the GOP candidate is charming, articulate and good looking (but still a cruel, heartless thug beneath the surface)?

State electors may not have been willing to overturn this election for the most vile and incompetent president in recent history, but now they know they can do it next time. That precedent appears to have been set.

[SpankMe]

51. I disagree with Ms. Alene

Red states are a lost cause. Their US Reps are trying to overturn the election. (Never happened before.) Their attorneys general are all suing toss-up states that went for Biden in the highest federal court. (Never happened before.) Their state reps and Republican-voting citizens are almost universally refusing to recognize the results of the election and are implying that armed revolution is justified (never happened to this extent before). The Republican controlled US senate has doubled down on its prior promises to deny their opposition even one line of their agenda.

It's a new era where no election will be settled the day after with consensus calls of the winner, followed by a concession by the loser any more. Rather, the loser will endlessly challenge, spread misinformation and fight for weeks and months after the election thus killing any faith in democracy. Then, they'll scorch the Earth until the next election.

America is over and it's Republicans' fault.

Fuck every one of them 'til they die.

[mcar]

67. Red state Reps are?

Really? (Bold mine)


Rep. Ralph Abraham, La. 5

Rep. Rick Allen, Ga. 12

Rep. Jim Baird, Ind. 4

Rep. Jim Banks, Ind. 3

Rep. Jack Bergman, Mich. 1

Rep. Andy Biggs, Ariz. 5

Rep. Gus M. Bilirakis, Fla. 12

Rep. Dan Bishop, N.C. 9

Rep. Mike Bost, Ill. 12

Rep. Kevin Brady, Tex. 8

Rep. Mo Brooks, Ala. 5

Rep. Ken Buck, Colo. 4

Rep. Ted Budd, N.C. 13

Rep. Tim Burchett, Tenn. 2

Rep. Michael C. Burgess, Tex. 26

Rep. Bradley Byrne, Ala. 1

Rep. Ken Calvert, Calif. 42

Rep. Earl L. “Buddy” Carter, Ga. 1

Rep. Ben Cline, Va. 6

Rep. Michael Cloud, Tex. 27

Rep. K. Michael Conaway, Tex 11

Rep. Eric A. “Rick” Crawford, Ark. 1

Rep. Dan Crenshaw, Tex. 2

Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart, Fla. 25

Rep. Jeff Duncan, S.C. 3

Rep. Neal Dunn, Fla. 2

Rep. Tom Emmer, Minn. 6

Rep. Ron Estes, Kan. 4

Rep. Drew Ferguson, Ga. 3

Rep. Charles J. “Chuck” Fleischmann, Tenn. 3

Rep. Bill Flores, Tex. 17

Rep. Jeff Fortenberry, Neb. 1

Rep. Virginia Foxx, N.C. 5

Rep. Russ Fulcher, Idaho 1

Rep. Matt Gaetz, Fla. 1

Rep. Greg Gianforte, Mont. At Large

Rep. Bob Gibbs, Ohio 7

Rep. Louie Gohmert, Tex. 1

Rep. Lance Gooden, Tex. 5

Rep. Sam Graves, Mo. 6

Rep. Mark Green, Tenn. 7

Rep. Michael Guest, Miss. 3

Rep. Andy Harris, Md. 1

Rep. Vicky Hartzler, Mo. 4

Rep. Kevin Hern, Okla. 1

Rep. Clay Higgins, La. 3

Rep. Trey Hollingsworth, Ind. 9

Rep. Richard Hudson, N.C. 8

Rep. Bill Huizenga, Mich. 2

Rep. Bill Johnson, Ohio 6

Rep. Mike Johnson, La. 4

Rep. Jim Jordan, Ohio 4

Rep. John Joyce, Pa. 13

Rep. Frederick B. Keller, Pa. 12

Rep. Mike Kelly, Pa. 16

Rep. Trent Kelly, Miss. 1

Rep. Steve King, Iowa 4

Rep. David Kustoff, Tenn. 8

Rep. Darin LaHood, Ill. 18

Rep. Doug LaMalfa, Calif. 1

Rep. Doug Lamborn, Colo. 5

Rep. Robert E. Latta, Ohio 5

Rep. Debbie Lesko, Ariz. 8

Rep. Blaine Luetkemeyer, Mo. 3

Rep. Kenny Marchant, Tex. 24

Rep. Roger Marshall, Kan. 1

Rep. Tom McClintock, Calif. 4

Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, Wash. 5

Rep. Dan Meuser, Pa. 9

Rep. Carol Miller, W.Va. 3

Rep. John Moolenaar, Mich. 4

Rep. Alex Mooney, W.Va. 2

Rep. Markwayne Mullin, Okla. 2

Rep. Gregory F. Murphy, N.C. 3

Rep. Dan Newhouse, Wash. 4

Rep. Ralph Norman, S.C. 5

Rep. Gary Palmer, Ala. 6

Rep. Scott Perry, Pa. 10

Rep. Guy Reschenthaler, Pa. 14

Rep. Tom Rice, S.C. 7

Rep. John Rose, Tenn. 6

Rep. David Rouzer, N.C. 7

Rep. John Rutherford, Fla. 4

Rep. Steve Scalise, La. 1

Rep. Austin Scott, Ga. 8

Rep. Mike Simpson, Idaho 2

Rep. Adrian Smith, Neb. 3

Rep. Jason T. Smith, Mo. 8

Rep. Ross Spano, Fla. 15

Rep. Elise Stefanik, N.Y. 21

Rep. Glenn Thompson, Pa. 15

Rep. Tom Tiffany, Wis. 7

Rep. William Timmons, S.C. 4

Rep. Ann Wagner, Mo. 2

Rep. Tim Walberg, Mich. 7

Rep. Michael Waltz, Fla. 6

Rep. Randy Weber, Tex. 14

Rep. Daniel Webster, Fla. 11

Rep. Brad Wenstrup, Ohio 2

Rep. Bruce Westerman, Ark. 4

Rep. Roger Williams, Tex. 25

Rep. Joe Wilson, S.C. 2

Rep. Rob Wittman, Va. 1

Rep. Ron Wright, Tex. 6

Rep. Ted Yoho, Fla. 3

Rep. Lee Zeldin, N.Y. 1

[Blaukraut]

56. If the red states would stop trying to dominate the rest of us, sure.

I don't want what is happening to blue areas in red states to happen on a national scale. And that is where we're headed. Red state laws and rules and opinions imposed on all of us. Fuck that.

[LeftInTX]

61. If Texas secedes were outta here...Hubby has a pension, I have Social Security

No real need to work.

[pwb]

68. I think red states all need to take a closer look at election results?

People in those states are nice. It doesn't make sense. All states have country folk.

[ecstatic]

69. I just don't see how this can continue

We've been at a stalemate for decades now--unable to address important problems related to healthcare, new technologies, etc, because republicans are OBSESSED with women's vaginas, discriminating against minorities, and increasing their personal portfolios at the expense of Americans and our country.

They don't give two shits about this country nor the people in it.

They are just takers at this point--benefiting from the huge accomplishments that were a direct result of diversity and immigration, while publicly asserting to their followers that diversity and immigration are bad.

They don't understand cause and effect. They don't understand history. They are too stupid to lead. Yet, here we are. At the mercy of crooked and compromised individuals, like Moscow Mitch and Lindsey Graham.

WE DESERVE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THIS!

[dalton99a]

70. Kick