Ibram Kendi: "...We need evidence that progressives hurt down ballot democrats..." on MJ

[uponit7771]

Last edited Wed Dec 16, 2020, 05:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Ibram Kendi: "...We need evidence that progressives hurt down ballot democrats..." on MJ

Here's the article -https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/12/democrats-are-blaming-wrong-people/617281/

They blamed the party’s down-ballot losses (or narrow wins) on progressive policies like Medicare for All and slogans like “Defund the police,” which they believe alienated voters. Moderate Democrats generalized anecdotes from constituents and failed to provide any measurable proof to substantiate their claims (outside of perhaps South Florida).

I agree we DO need evidence of at least how MUCH these slogans/terms/ideas hurt down ballot dems and not anecdotes even from people we love.

We need to know if progressive slogans/positions etc were a deciding factor.

We especially need evidence that slogans etc are the reasons down ballot dems who were polling ahead of MOE days before the election lost to the degrees we did.

He's also saying Trump has to give evidence of voter fraud and our party leadership should do the same when it comes to their claims of progressive ideas or slogans or terms made down ballots dems underperform polling to such degree.

I do so much agree with his sentiment ... evidence over anecdotes; our polling should be better and no other developed country puts up with polling this bad for this long tilted towards one party.

[empedocles]

1. Some folk here act like the many battlefront pols who testified as to their 'Defund', etc.'

injuries/wounds/ lost votes, in the November races, don't count. Some Progressives seem relentless in their denial - election after election.

[My interest is pragmatic, to do anything, we need to win. We can't count on a colossus like LBJ to get great achievements done, despite the relentless flak damage from the various factions in his own party].

[uponit7771]

3. I saw polls that claimed some things weren't popular but not that the unpopularity of an idea was...

... hurting the candidate especially ones that weren't pushing said idea as part of their campaigns.

Racism isn't popular for instance but the republican party cleaves to it and it doesn't hurt them enough.

Also, the unpopularity of an idea doesn't explain the losses of down ballot dems polling ahead outside of MOE.

Up 2 outside of MOE one day and loss by one is a failure of all kinds of sorts

[bigtree]

7. thing is, what progressives fight for, they believe in

...their cause is not about political positioning, like it is for self-described 'moderates' and 'centrists.'

Progressiveness is an affirmative value which seeks to increase opportunities and positive outcomes for individuals.

Moderation or centrism is a limiting ideology which seeks to parcel or deny progress on several key initiatives, as a political bid to gain favor from republicans and conservatives, or dilute their appeal.

[Walleye]

20. I respect progressive's beliefs and what they're fighting for. They just have to learn to win

[bigtree]

22. they do win

...in the places where the vast majority of Americans live.

[Walleye]

28. Unfortunately, it seems we need more than that.

[Demsrule86]

32. It is not enough given our system to give us majorities in Congress or the Senate...or on

the state level. We must win elections. Consider what might have happened if we had not held the house which we came close to losing. The House and Senate could have made Trump president for four more years. Consider what might have happened if we did not have Democratic governors in the blue wall states. The Democratic votes might have been tossed or another group of electors sent to Congress. I wish we had popular vote and Congress was different but you have to play the hand you are dealt.

[BGBD]

55. Its also not correct

Democrats win those places, being progressive is meaningless to that. Otherwise there would be a wave of progressive mayors, along with governors, and senators in states where the urban areas rule the statewide votes.

Progressives occasionally win primaries and are then shoe ins to win the ultra blue district they are running in.

Beyond that, we need to face the reality that being an urban based party hurts us in a system when geography has a role. We need to find a way to reduce the margins we lose by in the rural areas, and we can't do that if the only message they get is that we want to take their money, guns, and cops.

[Demsrule86]

34. I am a progressive. The difference between me and some of my fellow progressives is I want to win.

There is nothing more important to me than winning every election. And if I have to move to the center to do so...that is fine with me. Losing is not pure. It means you get nothing, and the GOP gets to decide policy.

[Walleye]

40. That's it exactly. The one thing we don't want is to divide this party.

I’m a progressive person, but I think of myself as an old style liberal Democrat. Social programs progressive taxes, equality for all. But winning the election comes first.

[R B Garr]

69. +1, exactly. Progressive means "Bernie supporter" in

a lot of these recent instances, and we know how that ended.

[msfiddlestix]

82. Exactly, you describe my view perfectly.

Furthermore I believe the 'evidence' of how voters respond to messaging is tabulated on the ballot.


I live in California, north of San Francisco. As it happens the majority of voters in Sonoma County voted for Biden/Harris. iirc the percent was roughly just under 80%. Before this election, I never worried how my community voted, fairly blue.

But after 2016, the presence of white supremacists and other right wing nutters were quite public, and it sowed some seeds of doubt on just how strong our Blue status was holding. I was relieved to see the election results in our county had reaffirmed what had been true for quite a number of years.

I'm worried right now about Newsom's ability to avoid a recall that's being given some public traction.

If we don't hold a Democratic Governor, we're going to see Republican Senators appointments to the Senate. I'm worried Feinstein won't resign in time for her seat to be appointed by this Governor in time to demonstrate effective leadership in order to be elected in the next election.

California is Blue in most of the populated areas, but we have our deep red areas. Not just rural, but places like Orange County isn't solid Blue yet. and then there's San Diego.

Messaging is an issue here. and we have good strong progressives, but they're mostly in the East Bay like Oakland and Berkeley, which is not like the rest of the state. There are pockets of everything.

I feel like progressives need to move to these rural areas, get acquainted on a real level with people who don't think like us.

Reaching out in person takes a lot more work, than tweeting slogans.

[treestar]

56. They have to convince people

or they are just bloviating. Enough people to win. It's about living with other people you don't agree with. Moderates are not denying progress, they are trying to make some. We live with right wingers who have a lot of power. No matter how "right" you feel you are, someone else in the country feels the opposite. There has to be a compromise to live in peace.

[liskddksil]

16. Republicans are the ones defunding the police by not supporting state/local. Why weren't we shouting

this from the rooftops. nt

[empedocles]

21. Because it doesn't sound authentic - or work effectively.

[liskddksil]

23. Does anything they tag us with sound authentic? Not to us because we are rational. But the American

people in general are not on the same plane (years of not emphasizing critical thinking in public education has that effect). But Republicans just hammer it anyway, and guess what it works. Maybe we should try that?

[Demsrule86]

35. Because we would lose. If you have explain than, you have already lost.

[liskddksil]

38. That's not explaining that's going on offense. We spend too much time on their terms -

that's why we keep losing cycle after cycle. Simply blaming "defund the police" when we should have been able to turn it back on to them as the actual police defunders, is glossing over the fundamental reasons our messaging has been unsuccessful over the last 2 decades.

[uponit7771]

68. +1, ... and if we were defining the opponent first they couldn't hit back hard enough for that

... to matter.

[underpants]

2. It was visuals and messaging

I knew it as I watched it - the nightly riot for sport and hobby in Portland was going to scare the hell out of white people even if it was white people doing it. We white people can do some stupid shit when we are scared. Simply saying “Defund” while any image of people on he street even in peaceful protest was bad for us.

Look Republicans were built on being dicks - tight with our money and tough in crime. It’s like two truism collided - Republicans are dicks and Republicans pray for rain on Election Day. Well it didn’t rain on Election MONTH and the turnout was massive, the very last thing the right has an entire propaganda and suppression operations to prevent happening.

[uponit7771]

4. Looks like the main point of the article is what we "think" might not meet up with reality no matter

... how much we respect someone or love them or trust our own experiences.

Also, none of what has been proffered explains the underperforming of so many down ballot dems that were polling ahead of MOE and lost.

No other country puts up with polling that bad and it should've reflected the DTP sentiment; it didn't and we sit again with a post mortem guessing vs facts (or more polling)

[gratuitous]

5. NO! The experts have decreed

And the culprits are those gosh-darn ultra-liberals and their cuh-razy ideas, like maybe it would be good if the police didn't regularly execute people in the street for minor crimes or imaginary infractions. Because that's just cuh-razy!

[uponit7771]

9. +1, I would accept it if there were a multitude of polling showing these ideas hurt down ballot dems

... who were polling ahead of MOE days before the election.

But there are none, just what people think ... I agree with your sentiment (cause we know that's what DTP mostly was) I don't think that's speculation is enough either.

[Demsrule86]

31. There are exit polls as well as earlier polls showing this would hurt us...and I have posted some

before and was informed polls were junk and not to be believed. Next I got the ...no one ran on defunding the police...well I posted from a prominent progressive's website...her word for word defense of 'defund the police' which I know about because it was used in an ad against us in Ohio. Now you are very smart...tell me do you really believe a progressive will win in red or purple states? They won't. Let's build a winning coalition and get some things done...and as we make people's lives better, I believe we will have more success in electing progressives in moderate districts and states and turn some red states purple at the same time. We must have a big tent in order to succeed so let's respect everyone's opinions and do what we must to win elections.

[uponit7771]

53. There are no exit polls showing down ballot dems who were up outside of MOE losing because of DTP

..., sociailsm or any other term.

That's false, everyone in this thread who keeps claiming there are polls have yet to show one stating what is being requested.

[malaise]

6. Get thee to the greatest page

Analysis must be fact based - I agree with him 100%. On the other hand I'm so tired of Eddie the post-modernist.

[randr]

8. The crazy Qanonsense Rep from Colorado

Ran her whole campaign with the 'De-fund the Police' back lash.

[Hortensis]

10. The Biden campaign has solid evidence from party polling.

Biden talks honestly and builds alliances. But irresponsible and hostile use of language hurt us very badly, and people need to know that.

He didn't ask for it, but a natural extension of awareness is to wonder about the motives of the organized groups who pushed this corrosive language. NOT, btw, smart BLM leaders who tried to move away from it only to have anti-Democrats carry it around after them the same way they did HRC's fake baggage.

[uponit7771]

11. We need to see it, I agree with the article. Dems being told something without seeing the evidence

... on something like this doesn't make it so.

We need to see it, if they have internals that the down ballot dems polling ahead of MOE days before the election were hurt by a slogan then I'll take it.

[Hortensis]

17. You say you need to "see," so mean it. "Seeing" means informing yourself.

Not the toxic and extremely dishonest trick of refusing to know and implying that if elected officials don't spoon feed any and all information demanded it probably means they're lying.

So, Uponit, you want to know, go research this topic among political experts, both from inside the party and independents. Believe me, everything about those elections is being studied and discussed six ways from Sunday by honorable scholars.

And then, please, report back what you find. As a good deed.

[uponit7771]

43. Like the article said, there's no proof of it out there posted for the public showing that DTP was

... the reason so many down ballot dems that were ahead of MOE polling days before the election lost.

There was post that DTP wasn't popular but that doesn't mean voter associated dems with it, there's no proof of that.

[Hortensis]

25. Here's a quick kick start from the WaPo, Uponit, with names

of analysts and researchers to kick off your googling. It's not your end. Btw, don't get suckered by Edsall's confusing use of the word "liberal" for the farther left and moderate for all other Democrats. Democrats are America's liberal progressive party, Repubs are America's conservative anti-progressive party. Basic stuff.

[uponit7771]

44. That's still no polling evidence, I think the article is clear

[Hortensis]

46. Yes, there is and it's wrong to claim without evidence

that President-Elect Biden spoke without knowing what he was talking about.

Both parties study and poll everything (BILLION-DOLLAR CAMPAIGNS, remember?), as do MANY honorable private organizations.

You got yourself into the position of casting doubt on what we all actually know is the case. Ball's in your court to establish that your statement was incorrect.

Or retract it.

The piss-poor option would be to take a powder off to some other thread and let stand an accusation that we all know amounts to a smear against Biden and his incoming administration. This is DU. The insinuation isn't the crime here.

“That’s how they beat the living hell out of us across the country, saying that we’re talking about defunding the police. We’re not. We’re talking about holding them accountable. We’re talking about giving them money to do the right things. We’re talking about putting more psychologists and psychiatrists on the telephones when the 911 calls through. We’re talking about spending money to enable them to do their jobs better, not with more force, with less force and more understanding.” President-Elect Biden

“If you believe, as I do, that we should be able to reform the criminal justice system so that it's not biased and treats everybody fairly, I guess you can use a snappy slogan, like ‘defund the police.’ But you know, you lost a big audience the minute you say it, which makes it a lot less likely that you're actually going to get the changes you want done.” President Obama

"'Defund the police' is killing our party, and we've got to stop it. John Lewis and I were very concerned when these slogans came out about 'defund the police.' We sat together on the House floor and talked about how that slogan... could undermine the BLM movement, just as 'burn, baby, burn' destroyed our movement back in the '60s." James Clyburn speaking for himself and John Lewis

“A lot of people in the progressive movement now are calling for defunding or abolishing the police. Do you —” to which Sanders responded, “Do I think we should not have police departments in America? No, I don’t. There’s no city in the world that does not have police departments.”
Bernie Sanders

"That orientation toward reforms is precisely why he should publicly embrace the demand to defund the police." Nina Turner criticizing Bernie Sanders for refusing to use the term "defund the police."

.

[uponit7771]

52. You've not sited one poll of what's being requested, I disagree with Biden's assessment without

... polling to back it up.

[Hortensis]

76. You "disagree with Biden's assessment."

With no evidence to support your "disagreement" and very good reason to believe the entire Democratic Party leadership, including the AA caucus, were speaking truth to you.

But then, we knew that from the beginning. It's just clearly stated now.

[uponit7771]

77. You're asking to prove a negative from the person that didn't make the assertion

[bigtree]

18. polling 'evidence' may well show republican's exploiting something someone said

...but none of what republicans claimed in the last campaign was true.

There wasn't any Democratic initiative to 'defund police,' nor was it part of any candidate's appeal, but man, did some folks take the bait and run with it.

Republicans used the same Rovian strategy they've employed for decades, like the 'soft on Defense' canard after 911 which spawed a generation of hawks and militarists arguing that 'war is peace.'

It's dog-and-pony, and now the hue-and-cry is that we should genuflect in the face of republican propaganda. In order to buy into this defeatist theory of the election, you need to cluck your tongues along with republicans at BLM, who originated the phrase. But, that's the point of it all, isn't it?

[Hortensis]

19. It's not just Republicans. Hostile LW dissident activists double teamed

on this topic WITH the Republicans against Democrats. They do this every election and every day between elections, magnifying their toxic messaging many times over and hitting Democrats from every direction.

There's a big schism right now over on the socialist/farther left side:

* Those leaders who responsibly believe that for now they must stand with Democrats against the huge authoritarian threat on the right. THESE leaders were not ordering the use of scary words like "defund."

* Those intractably hostile leaders who prefer to believe collapse of our democracy would open the door to their own takeover and ruthlessly count no costs.

[bigtree]

26. so, still private citizens speaking out

...and the proposal is to try and limit that public expression of belief?

Remember that this distortion originated with BLM defending black lives in their communities.

[Hortensis]

27. We're not talking about private citizens. We're talking about

extremist leaders who deliberately risk handing the power to decide both social justice and healthcare issues over to the Republicans. Again.

And please, don't smear BLM leaders with this. They knew the danger as well as anyone could and who was magnifying it against them. Does anyone imagine losing all those house and state legislature seats to Republicans HELPED BLM's cause?!

Or forget the intransigent hostility of extremists to all who are not with them, and those include the vast majority of America's black voters.

[bigtree]

42. the 'smear' isn't pointing to the origin of the term

...especially since there are literally no legislators or candidates pushing the phrase or legislating it. Blaming 'progressives' (or crediting them for it) for the phrase is blatenly false.

Just who is expected to moderate their language to serve this meme? Certainly not private citizens who originated and defined the term.

Just who are these people that are being complained about, and why aren't these complaints directed at anything actually said?

I'll tell you why. It's because this argument is primarily a tool to bash progressives and define their politics outside of the mainstream based on the politics of vastly less-populated 'red states.' It's all the more absurd when you consider that the vast majority of Democrats vote regulary for progressive candidates.

[Demsrule86]

36. Yeah! a little help would be appreciated. You don't have to say every damn thing.

If you are hurting Democratic chances of winning elections...than stop. If we ever did succeed in burning it down and I use that word loosely, we would end up with fascist country-not a socialist paradise. Look around you at other countries that have burned it down, how are they doing?

[uponit7771]

59. THANK YOU !!! Claiming a slogan that kGOP associated with dems was a gating factor in losses of

... of dems that were up in polling is EXACTLY why the author says down ballot democrats need to campaign better.

or

The polling sucks

[Bettie]

12. I tend to believe that the bigger problem was that

every right winger crawled out from under their rocks to vote for Agent Orange.

In places that generally trend red, but we won in 2018, there were too many who worship him to overcome in an election where he was running.

[Demsrule86]

24. Biden who said from the beginning in the primary he did not want to defund the police won by

higher margins...we lost in New York and California too...we lost statehouses too...looked like we might pick up seats in TX but it was a blow out and not for us...must face facts...some aspects of the progressive message don't work.

[Bettie]

30. So, were those seats in NY and CA

generally those that had been Red before 2018?

That's what I'm talking about. We got out Democrats in a year when Republican turnout wasn't as it was this year. This election saw every right-leaning Trump lover getting their butts to the polls. People in my shitty little red town who have never voted before got out there for their Orange Messiah.

But of course, it is 100% due to progressives that we lost any seats at all. If we were all more like Republicans we'd win it ALL!

[Demsrule86]

37. We had a good chance to win those seats...we have won every year since Trump was elected...so you

can say what you want. But I have looked into the matter. I believe we were painted with 'defund' the police and portrayed as socialists. I saw the ads the ads in Ohio; they were devastating We were expected to pick up seats and lost seats. We make fun of the pugs after they lose they don't look into the reasons for the loss. But we need an autopsy too in this situation. I thank God Biden was the candidate and could not be portrayed as a socialist and had made it clear that he did hot support ' defund the police.

[Bettie]

41. Well then, you moderates should

just work harder at jettisoning progressives to serve your desire for a center-right party without anyone advocating for anything else.

If the only message we're going to have as a party going forward is "NO SOCIALISM! COPS ARE THE BEST!", well, I guess it will be really clear who is and isn't welcome in that "big" tent.

[Demsrule86]

13. Denial, denial and denial...just stop. It is clear that we need moderates with moderate views

to run in red and purple states or even in GOP leaning districts in blue states. While I believe in the progressive message. I know this message can hurt us during elections in certain states and districts...this year some of our House and Legislature candidates were hurt by defund the police messages which were on some prominent progressives websites with a good explanation, but if you have to explain you have already lost the argument.

Our candidates were painted as far left. This cost us seats in the House and, the state level and possibly the Senate. I would love to see progressives win in every state. I am working a project in Ohio at the grassroots level to share the progressive message and make it more palatable in a states like Ohio. I believe the policies we want for this country will benefit everyone and can be used to win hearts and minds, but we are not there yet. We are at best a center left country.

I want to win elections period. If you don't win, you get nothing. Thus I am all about a 50 state big tent strategy. While I subscribe to the progressive message and values, I am willing to elect moderate if need be and get something done. I believe at this point in order to hold majorities nationally and at the state level there is no choice. Let's work to change hearts and minds so we can elect progressive red or purple states or districts. But in the meantime field candidate who can win and don't put obstacles in our path like the phrase 'defund the police'. Yes I understand the meaning and agree but many don't. I would point out that the only reason we have a chance to take back the Senate is moderate candidates like Sinema and Kelly. We will have a chance in 22 in PA and in WI to elect two more senators.

[uponit7771]

14. All of that is still not evidence but anecdote. For instance republicans openly enable racism and

... racism is less popular than DTP but their embrace of racism doesn't hurt them enough in swing areas to kill their chances.

I agree with the article that we need evidence, a poll that DTP hurt the candidate (not that a slogan or idea was unpopular) .. something other than trust me

[Demsrule86]

29. There is polling evidence...but you all don't want it to be true so you won't accept it which is

fine. But please don't use the phrase 'defund the police again'. I googled 'defund the police', there were hundreds of articles, ads about this and about socialism and also single payer...Biden was immune to being called a socialist and had made it very clear, he did not favor defunding the police or single payer. Thus he did substantially better than down ballot who were hurt by 'defund the police' and socialism rhetoric. We need to take seats in red and purple districts in order to have majorities...that is the bottom line. But look at the ACA. It is more popular than ever. Once we get some stuff done like a $15.00 minimum which we all agree on and other proposals which can be deemed moderate we will move the country left and more policies will become acceptable. But you have to win majorities in order to do this. Below are two examples of what I am talking about there are many more as well as polling...we have to use our political instincts in order to win and I suggest a 50 state strategy and a big tent is the only way. When the big tent existed we held Congress for decades.

"House Majority Whip James Clyburn criticized calls to "defund the police" during several media appearances on Sunday, saying that the phrase hurt Democratic congressional candidates and could potentially derail the Black Lives Matter movement.

Clyburn said on CNN's "State of the Union" that he'd spoken with the late Rep. John Lewis about the phrase this summer, the two concluding "that it had the possibilities of doing to the Black Lives Matter movement and current movements across the country what 'Burn, baby, burn' did to us back in 1960."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/11/08/james-clyburn-defund-police-cost-democrats-seats-hurt-black-lives-matter/6216371002/

"The ad had all the trappings of a left-wing boogeyman fever dream: “He’d defund the police, end Medicare, force you into socialized medicine, double your gas prices with a Green New Deal. Cameron Webb: way too radical.”

The rhetoric, deployed against a Virginia Democratic candidate for a U.S. House seat, is exactly what Rep. Abigail Spanberger (D-Va.) was talking about last week when she told her colleagues they needed to avoid using language that became fodder for Republican attacks."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/webb-spanberger-defund-attacks/2020/11/11/9afd6408-2426-11eb-952e-0c475972cfc0_story.html

[uponit7771]

45. That's not polling evidence of DTP being the reason down ballot dems lost when they were ahead

... of MOE days before the election.

This is a very specific request in the article and what I'm asking too.

The rest is anecdote, show us the polls that say DTP was the reason down ballot dems winning in the polls lost their elections.

[Demsrule86]

48. You can google all the polls before and after the election...many saying that defund the police,

single payer and socialism hurt us down ballot... I am not going to have you pick apart every piece of evidence because you want to believe otherwise. It is my opinion that it hurt us and there is evidence to back it up...as well prominent Democrats like Clyburn saying it. But ask yourself this, can you get elected in a red or purple state with such a message? It is so clear that the answer is no.

[uponit7771]

51. There's not one poll of what I'm requesting IE the reason why the article was written. You can't

... just make things up, I see people have points but reality matters.

[MineralMan]

15. Well, Minnesota lost a Democratic House seat because of it.

Colin Peterson, the incumbent Democrat in his district, got slammed with anti-Pelosi and "Defund the Police" ads by his Republican opponent and Republican PACs. A multi-term Democrat in a swing district, he lost in November because of that. He knows it. Everyone in the Twin Cities Metro Area knows it. One lost House seat.

Now, he was never a very progressive Democrat, but he voted with the Democratic caucus in the house. His replacement will never vote with Democrats. It was a big loss in our state, which has only eight House seats.

[wellst0nev0ter]

60. Or it could be this

While they have different political affiliations, Fischbach and Peterson align on many issues central to voters in western Minnesota. They both support the right to bear arms, have sought to limit abortion access and think COVID-19 mitigation strategies should be better tailored to regions of the state.

Their slight variations come around health care and tax policy. Fischbach has said she wants to repeal the Affordable Care Act while Peterson has said it should remain in place unless a viable alternative is presented. And Fischbach said she would push to make permanent changes under the 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act while Peterson said the plan came without a plan to fund it and worried about its impact to the federal deficit.

Even Peterson acknowledged that the moderate Democrat and Republican candidate didn't offer a profound contrast for voters on their policy platforms.

https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/government-and-politics/6724871-Minnesota-7th-Collin-Peterson-faces-his-hardest-test-yet-in-Michelle-Fischbach

[Sneederbunk]

33. It was about messaging and "Defund the Police" was the wrong message.

[liskddksil]

39. That's just arguing about window dressing instead of fixing the foundation, which is our structural

campaign problems we continue to have cycle after cycle that lets Republicans define the arguments on their terms. If it wasn't defund the police it would have been something else like in 2010, 2014 or 2016 when we also got clobbered down-ballot.

[uponit7771]

50. +1, a lot of responses here are just repeating what the article is sounding off about; anecdotal ...

... evidence vs some polling data showing DTP or other slogans beat the down ballot candidates who were expected to win.

There is none, if there was some it was negligent for dems not to react to it.

Your right, the structure of our campaigns don't allow them to flood the message quick enough to the msm

[boston bean]

47. He could try using common sense.

[uponit7771]

54. Or evidence? There's not one poll anywhere showing DTP etc is reason why down ballot dems who were

... up outside of MOE days before the election lost.

That and

no polls showing DTP hurting dems nationally to the point they were losing while up on polling overall.

If there were, to the articles point ... why didn't dems react before voting?

That's bad campaigning that's not a slogan.

I'm posting this here because I can't believe how many people are dismissing the logic overall and not reading the article.

The author of the article is correct, noticing a slogan etc is beating you after the election is over is bad campaigning ... period.

[Gothmog]

49. It is clear that this slogan hurt down ballot candidates

Link to tweet

[uponit7771]

57. I agree with the author, we need empirical proof that it was a deciding factor on losses not guesses

If it was a deciding factor in votes (there's not one piece of empirical evidence showing it was) then democrats need to change their campaigning infrastructure seeing they can't respond with accurate counter message like Biden did.

Reacting to a gating factors after the fact is poor infrastructure .

Also,

Down ballot dems who were up outside of MOE never showed DTP was a deciding factor in votes

[Gothmog]

61. The GOP ran ads attacking this slogan constantly and they won

I saw a ton of these ads in my region

Link to tweet

This slogan helped defeat the democrat in the Maine Senate seat

Link to tweet

The GOP knew that these ads would work, used these ads and they were right

[uponit7771]

65. Then dem infrastructure would've picked up on it and responded right? NO !!! That's what the author

... is claiming, there's no way any slogan messaging would've defeated a clear flooding response from dems.

Cause it wasn't a factor, again if it was then why didn't dems respond ?

[Gothmog]

72. This was a really stupid slogan that cost democrats races they could had won

This slogan was a factor in the real world. Why do you want Democrats to lose races with a stupid slogan?

[uponit7771]

73. Obvious falacous question aside we agree dtp wasn't the best slogan for winning

... a political race is right on par with operation warp speed when it comes to convincing people something with little testing, new and never tried wide scale should be injected into thier bodies.

Point being it wasn't progressives fault down ballot Dems couldn't respond to kGOP framing of a slogan they for the most part didn't ascribe to.

[Gothmog]

79. You are wrong-tell the candidates who lost that they deserved to lose

Link to tweet

[Bettie]

58. Seems like there are a lot of "scary" phrases there

I don't think that makes your argument that "Defund the Police" was the sole reason any Democrat lost anywhere.

So, on that list of 7 things, how many votes were lost by each of the "bad things"? Or was it ONLY Defund the Police that was the problem? Was the image of Kamala Harris part of what "lost votes"?

Perhaps better framing on the part of Democrats would help. For example, putting out ads about what Republicans really stand for and who they really are or ads about what Democrats actually stand for rather than allowing the other side to define everything.

Saying that ONLY ONE factor caused losses will lead to more losses. It's a variety of things including the fact that every idiot in the nation seems to have come out to support their Dear Orange Leader.

[uponit7771]

62. "...Perhaps better framing on the part of Democrats would help..." 👈🏾👈🏾👈🏾 THIS !!! Either dems

... have the worst as is polling infrastructure on planet earth or they're horrible at framing their opponents first or the polling was the worst of any developed country in the US or ...

None of those are good but to intimate a slogan was a gating reason why down ballot dems lost is crazy,

If that was the case why didn't down ballot dems respond to messaging that wasn't theirs ?!

I'm thinking people didn't read the article, the author has a good point.

[Gothmog]

64. These attempts did not work in the real world

In the real world, Democrats lost a ton of downballot races that they should have won. In the real world, a down ballot candidate does not have the money or media attention to counter a GOP lie like Joe was able to. Again, read the material posted. From the NBC artile cited in the prior post

"When you're Joe Biden and you have 47 years in public life and you have a billion dollars behind you, you can build your own brand," said Matt Bennett, executive vice president of the centrist think tank Third Way. "But when you're down-ballot, it's hard to outrun that brand in red and purple districts."

This ignorant slogan hurt down ballot candidates. I work on the campaigns for several candidates this cycle. I have three friends who ran who lost this cycle. The party/DCCC put a ton of money into these races and these candidate were unable to overcome the effectos of GOP attackins using Defund the Police, MFA and socialism

The real world is a nice place. You would have a different prespective if you actually worked on a campaign

[uponit7771]

66. Then that's infrastructure not progressives !! You're citing is agreeing with the author, its not ..

... progressives fault that down ballot dems didn't have the resources to respond to a slogan they never ran on that's infrastructure!!!

We need to get polling and response resources to down ballot dems so they can respond to the stupid

or

make sure they FRAME FIRST !!!

Your post validates the author's point to a T

[Gothmog]

70. You are wrong

This was due to a stupid slogan that was used to defeat Democratic candidates who should have won their races

[uponit7771]

74. No empirical evidence of it was a slogan that was a gating factor in any of the losses and are you..

.... saying is a slogan from some random people is all that's needed to defeat down ballot Dems?

That still makes the authors point doesn't it?

[Gothmog]

80. These candidates lost due to this ignrant slogan

This was NOT an infrastructure problem but a really stupid slogan that was easy to use to defeat good candidates

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

63. Why 'Defund The Police' Attacks Were So Potent Against Democrats

Link to tweet

As of June, just 27% of Americans supported “defunding the police,” compared with 57% who opposed it, according to a HuffPost/YouGov poll. At the same time, more moderate reforms ― such as banning chokeholds by law officers, creating a federal registry for complaints about police misconduct and developing a national use of force standard ― all had the support of large, bipartisan majorities of Americans.

“What other movement would take a set of policies that an overwhelming number of Americans support and slap an unpopular label on it?” asked Danny Barefoot, a Democratic consultant who worked on some Senate and state legislative races.

Sure enough, Republicans saw an opportunity. Painting Democrats as supporters of “defunding” the police became the focus of campaign literature, TV and digital ads, and live televised debates. That forced Democratic candidates to divert resources that might otherwise be used discussing COVID-19 relief, health care or education to be used disavowing themselves from the slogan and otherwise defending themselves.

Out of 31 broadcast TV ads that Trump and other allied campaign groups used to attack Biden and other Democrats for being soft on law and order, 11 spots ― that aired a total of 77,647 times ― explicitly mentioned “defund the police,” according to an analysis Kantar Media/CMAG conducted for HuffPost. And out of 216 Republican broadcast TV ads in congressional races blasting Democrats, 157 spots that aired 103,000 times used the phrase.

[uponit7771]

67. This is polling of the popularity of sentiment not whether or not said sentiment was attached to ...

... down ballot dems.

Like I said upthread, racism is very unpopular ... AND ... republicans hug it at every chance but that's not a gating factor of why they win or lose.

[Gothmog]

71. Votes are what counts

Good Democratic candidates lost due to this slogan. Voters voted based on what they were told about this stupid slogan Voters spoke with their votes in the real world

[uponit7771]

75. You mean what democrats told them about the slogan right? If no then democrats should have responded

... and not sat on thier hands and if they couldn't respond then that goes to the authors point; Dems need better infrastructure for down ballot Dems.

There's no empirical proof dtp was a gating factor in down ballot losses

[Gothmog]

78. In the real world, the GOP is using the idiotic defund the police in the Georgia senate races

I hope that we do not lose these seats due to this idiotic slogan

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

81. In Texas, this dumb slogan cost us seats

I saw the ads being runned against two friends who lost state house seats

Link to tweet