I've never seen guff heaped on AOC directed against moderates who tried to replace Speaker Pelosi

[bigtree]

...and I've never seen AOC advocate or vote against Speaker Pelosi.

...but these House moderates in 2011:

Nineteen Democrats, including two members of the California delegation, registered public protest votes against her leadership Wednesday by supporting another Member for Speaker. Overall, 173 Democrats supported Pelosi as House leader, while all 241 Republicans in the new majority backed Rep. John Boehner (Ohio).

The Pelosi defections highlight the work the California Democrat still must do to bring her diverse Caucus together in the wake of the Nov. 2 elections that cost her party House control. Many moderates remain unhappy with her decision to run for Minority Leader in the 112th Congress, thinking it was time for a shake-up at the top. In November, Pelosi beat back what was largely a symbolic challenge from Rep. Heath Shuler for the top Democratic job. Shuler, a leading Blue Dog Democrat from North Carolina, challenged Pelosi again Wednesday, securing 11 votes including his own. He got the backing of Reps. Jason Altmire (Pa.), Dan Boren (Okla.), Jim Cooper (Tenn.), Joe Donnelly (Ind.), Tim Holden (Pa.), Larry Kissell (N.C.), Jim Matheson (Utah), Mike McIntyre (N.C.), Mike Michaud (Maine) and Mike Ross (Ark.).

https://www.rollcall.com/2011/01/05/pelosis-splintered-support-goes-on-display/

...and here comes Democratic moderate Elizabeth Slotkin, refusing to vote for Speaker Pelosi THIS YEAR without a peep from these heroes saving our party from AOC:

Democratic congresswoman takes aim at Nancy Pelosi: 'We need new leadership'

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi continues to take fire from members of her own caucus, as Michigan Rep. Elissa Slotkin is now stating she will not vote for the San Francisco Democrat in Pelosi's bid for another team as Speaker of the House.

“I will not be voting for Nancy Pelosi,” Slotkin told Politico. “I have no idea if people are gonna run against her, or who might run against her. And I will of course have this conversation directly with her. But I believe we need new leadership. I would love to see more Midwesterners, because if you look across the leadership. … I respect these people, but it’s New York and California.”

Slotkin, who flipped the red district that encompasses Lansing in 2018 and won re-election in 2020, sharply criticized her party's messaging ahead of the 2020 election. She stated that the party's lack of a central message left House incumbents vulnerable to Republican attacks on "defund the police" and "socialism."

“The brand of the national Democratic Party is mushy," she said. "People don’t know what we stand for, what we’re about. So, every two years when the new flavor of attack comes out, it’s easy to convince a portion of the population that those attacks are true, because they still don’t know our brand."

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Elissa-Slotkin-Nancy-Pelosi-House-Speaker-vote-Dem-15730978.php

...these are people who insist they know what our party should represent, but they struggle to win their own races, blaming Democrats who regulary win theirs.

Link to tweet

[hlthe2b]

1. My memory is quite different. Those "moderates" who tried to see Pelosi replaced were excoriated...

here and elsewhere as I recall.

[bigtree]

2. where are these posts

...we've had 3 years of anti-AOC posts because she's supposedly trying to upend the party.

I've yet to see anywhere near the same amount of scorn for any of these people for their disloyalty and divisiveness.

It's clear why. The tenor here is decidedly moderate. We're lectured all the time about the virtues of moderation, but it's manifested itself in the very divisiveness that AOC is blamed for supposedly fomenting.

[Demsrule86]

3. I struggle with this post. And then I realized. I can't name the moderates. I know they exist but

they are part of the vast entity known as Congress.

[bigtree]

34. I really did think someone would say SOMETHING

...about Elizabeth Slotkin who called the party 'mushy.'

The lost soul right in front of us.

But no, AOC said...

[George II]

78. Elissa Slotkin was criticized here on DU for that comment. For some reason every time I try an....

..."advanced search" on a single word it times out on me. Try searching for "mushy".

[intheflow]

127. I searched under "mushy" and got a bunch of recipes

on DU, as well as posts about feeling mushy over *insert movie/actor/cute animal videos*. The only thing that comes up with both "mushy" and "Slotkin" is this OP.

[boston bean]

4. Wonder why moderates would want Pelosi replaced?. Could it be because she is progressive?

And your memory is serving you wrong. Those moderates were criticized intensely by me and many others.

[hlthe2b]

5. You'd have to do an archive search for 2018. I encourage you to do so to reassure yourself.

[bigtree]

7. it's not the same level of opposition, not at all

...and you must know this.

Just directing me to 2018 should clue you in. These SAME forces working against the Democratic leadership are being touted today as figures to emulate, while steadfast allies of our Democratic leadership are being excoriated for disunity.

[hlthe2b]

15. I do know the ringleaders were absolutely excoriated. Search, including Tim Ryan, Seth Moulton

A total of 16 Democrats are on a letter signaling their opposition to Pelosi, the intent of which is to
and the three who ran against her in 2018: Stephen Jaffe, Ryan Khojasteh, Shahid Buttar.

The discussions were fierce with quite a bit of ugly ageism. I remember intensely.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/11/15/18095869/nancy-pelosi-speaker-votes-democrats-letter
A total of 16 Democrats are on a letter signaling their opposition to Pelosi, the intent of which is to demonstrate she doesn’t have the 218 votes to be speaker and encourage another person to challenge her.
Tim Ryan (D-OH)
Seth Moulton (D-MA)
Kathleen Rice (D-NY)
Ed Perlmutter (D-CO)
Kurt Schrader (D-OR)
Filemon Vela Jr. (D-TX)
Stephen Lynch (D-MA)
Bill Foster (D-IL)
Linda Sanchez (D-CA)
Jim Cooper (D-TN)
Rep.-elect Jeff Van Drew (D-NJ)
Rep.-elect Joe Cunningham (D-SC)
Rep.-elect Max Rose (D-NY)
Rep.-elect Anthony Brindisi (D-NY)
Rep.-elect Gil Cisneros (D-CA)
Rep.-elect Ben McAdams (D-UT)

[hlthe2b]

16. I direct you to 2018 because that was when she faced opposiition to reelection and won

decisively after committing to a four-year maximum term.

Why would I NOT have directed you to 2018? I think, bigtree you've forgotten some of what transpired.

[ProfessorGAC]

8. Four Years?

She just won her second term. She's yet to be there 2 years.
There were posts about her 2 years before she went to Congress?
And, the posts castigating those moderates were intense & voluminous.
They just didn't last as long, because once that hamhanded effort to unseat Pelosi failed, those people were no longer news.
AOC continues to make news so, naturally, there is more upon which to comment.
The conspiracy you seek appears to be a phantom.

[bigtree]

11. 2 years then

...doesn't really mean much, so ha.

These same moderates are being touted as the best thing since sliced bread, but it's a 'conspiracy' to mention the dearth of opposition to them?

Please.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Excuse Me?

You admit to not remembering posts others have, and your evidence of correctness is that 2 or 4 years is the same thing? You remembered posts that didn't exist, but forgot posts that did?
Seems like a textbook example of selective memory.

[bigtree]

24. so you think personalizing my mistake makes your case?

...it's just hostility directed toward me, not worthy of serious debate between us.

[sheshe2]

108. +1

[Demsrule86]

17. You do know that 40 moderates gave us the House in 18. Any many lost this year endangering

our majority in 2022. Some of those moderates blame this on 'defund the police' and ' the Socialism' rhetoric espoused by some during the November election.

[bigtree]

21. you do realize that's less than the majority

...mostly concentrated in a handful of red states, trying to dictate their anti-progressivism to the rest of the party.

And the ones who LOST are a sorry example for the rest of us on how to win.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

22. "Some" blame, huh. Well that seals it.

And Biden is neither a Socialist nor wants to defund the police, so, as was said while progressives were involved in the primary, we all knew the Republicans were going to put those labels on Biden regardless of whether they were talked about or not.

But, yeah, keep blaming progressives and punching left while welcoming Steve Schmidt into the party with open, hugging arms. Makes sense.

[Fiendish Thingy]

36. And yet the progressives who support M4A won re-election and the moderates didn't. Nt

[Jamaal510]

118. Yeah--in mostly deep-blue districts. nt

[George II]

132. You should see some of the literature and door hangers circulation Georgia these days....

Those two issues could lose us one or both Senate runoff elections.

I'd post one of them I saw but would be bashed for posting RW talking points.

[sheshe2]

112. Why do you trash Democratic Moderates.

They help us win red states. I thought we were a big tent.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

20. You're exactly right!

A+

[Sympthsical]

48. It's the same victimhood script every time as well

AOC makes some mild, constructive criticism.

"Why is she bashing Democrats?!!!!!!!!!!11!!!1"

*proceeds to then ream AOC up and down at an 11 when her initial criticism might've been a 4*

The party is aging and will have to change. Our system isn't working anymore. Merely saying the obvious truth openly - which is what AOC specializes in - is enough to cause mass apoplexy.

When truth is the enemy of your political well-being, your political well-being probably needs to be upended.

[George II]

77. I remember seeing that here, even at Kathleen Rice (I was upset with her then, too) and....

....that Congressman from I believe Massachusetts, but can't remember his name.

That was two years, and obviously those who did have quieted and returned to doing their jobs. Plus, they and the others were already IN the House, they weren't Representatives-Elect who hadn't served one day in the House yet.

[ehrnst]

6. "and I've never seen AOC advocate or vote against Speaker Pelosi." From Wednesday of this week:

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez insisted that top Democrats House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer should no longer head the party during a new podcast with The Intercept.

https://www.businessinsider.com/we-need-new-leadership-aoc-criticizes-pelosi-and-schumer-2020-12

[bigtree]

9. that report was false

...no direct quotes saying anything of the sort.

I can't find where she challenged the leadership the way Politico describes, not in any quote produced. Wonder why?

“If you create that vacuum, there are so many nefarious forces at play to fill that vacuum with something even worse,” she told Jeremy Scahill during an interview aired Wednesday on Intercepted this week.

Ocasio-Cortez argued that there are no viable alternatives for House or Senate leadership at the moment because the caucus’s current leaders spent a number of years concentrating power without any “real grooming of a next generation of leadership.”

“A lot of this is not just about these two personalities, but also about the structural shifts that these two personalities have led in their time in leadership,” Ocasio-Cortez said. “The structural shifts of power in the House, both in process and rule, to concentrate power in party leadership of both parties, frankly, but in Democratic Party leadership to such a degree that an individual member has far less power than they did 30, 40, 50 years ago.”

This dynamic is what pushes the “really talented members of Congress that do come along” to leave or run for statewide office instead. But Pelosi has also indicated that this upcoming term could be her last, “and the left isn’t really making a plan for that either,” Ocasio-Cortez added. “So I do think that it’s something that we really need to think about.”

If progressives do threaten to withhold their support from Pelosi, Ocasio-Cortez said, their demand shouldn’t be merely for a floor vote on Medicare for All, which is sure to fail. Instead, she believes, progressives should fight some of the bigger structural obstacles in the way of Medicare for All, like pay-go, an austerity provision that makes it difficult for Democrats to pass more ambitious policies, or replacing conservative Democratic Rep. Richie Neal as head of the Ways and Means Committee. “We are currently negotiating to get and work towards real material concessions for the left that can move things into place, to help build power for the next two years,” she said.

The New York congresswoman shot down the possibility of running for the position any time soon. “The House is extraordinarily complex and I’m not ready,” she said. “It can’t be me. I know that I couldn’t do that job.”

https://theintercept.com/2020/12/16/aoc-nancy-pelosi-needs-to-go-but-theres-nobody-to-replace-her-yet/

[Dem4Life1102]

38. Interesting

Politico loves the Dems in disarray spin.

AOC voted for Pelosi for speaker two years ago. Max Rose didn’t and ran campaign ads attacking Schumer and Pelosi. But she’s the bad one.

[ehrnst]

40. "I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party," Ocasio-Cortez said.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/12/10231085/aoc-says-its-time-for-change-in-the-democratic-party

She said this in the podcast and the Intercept summarized it for the headline. Other articles such as the one above, quoted her directly.

You need to click on the podcast in the link you shared.

So, yes, she has said that about Pelosi, so you may want to correct that in your OP now that you've been informed.

Is that clearer?

[bigtree]

49. taking a quote out of context is a curious way of making something said 'clear'

...it's a standard discussion about the future of the party, from this relatively new Rep's pov. Something not at all controversial or damning in any way. The remark was about when Pelosi and other aging leaders retire, not about forcing her out.

I wonder how many others who've offered their view of the party in the future have attracted such mistaken scorn?

[sheshe2]

110. You mention Politco and link to the Intercept?

[Hekate]

121. This is a very strange thread

[bigtree]

123. ymmv

...people who jump into the middle of conversations are bound to be confused.

Politico cites the Intercept article for EVERY BIT OF THEIR FALSE LEAD. Nowhere do they provide ANY direct quote (or otherwise) to support their clickbait lede that AOC attacked someone.

That is easily gleaned from reading more of the thread than the part where you want to slam the op.

BTW, that poster you responded to hasn't deserved a reply from me for many years now after disrespecting me several times. I personally don't know why they bother to come on my thread and talk to me. It's very rare I know they even exist here at all.

[George II]

113. That report was 100% true, not false at all.

[Progressive dog]

12. Most Democrats have and do support Speaker Pelosi

The Democrats who oppose her know this and rather than work with her, try to replace her. That never goes over well. IMO It seems like a hostile takeover and an attempted makeover of the Democratic party.

[ehrnst]

52. The speaker of the House is chosen by the Democrats in the House, because they know

who has the stuff, and Pelosi clearly does from the number of times that she's been chosen by her peers.

I'm sure it's irritating to some that she does her job in the way that she feels is best without worrying that not every single one of the Democratic reps agree with her.

The vast majority of her Democratic peers trust her, and they know the job better than all of us do.

[ananda]

13. It's hard to be a liberal these days!

Has been since Reagan.

[zebrapa]

18. SAT WHAT ?!

RE: " ...and I've never seen AOC advocate or vote against Speaker Pelosi."

Where have you been the last couple of days? This was reported all over the news.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/12/16/ocasio-cortez-new-leaders-pelosi-schumer-446247

AOC and the squad pushed the "Defund the Police" meme. the Republicans trashed our house candidates with it which resulted in the Dems losing house seats.

[AmericanCanuck]

26. This

[bigtree]

27. find me ONE quote that's a 'direct shot' at the Speaker

...they quote the Intercept.

But I can't find where she challenged the leadership the way Politico describes, not in any quote produced by them or Intercept. Wonder why?

“If you create that vacuum, there are so many nefarious forces at play to fill that vacuum with something even worse,” she told Jeremy Scahill during an interview aired Wednesday on Intercepted this week.

Ocasio-Cortez argued that there are no viable alternatives for House or Senate leadership at the moment because the caucus’s current leaders spent a number of years concentrating power without any “real grooming of a next generation of leadership.”

“A lot of this is not just about these two personalities, but also about the structural shifts that these two personalities have led in their time in leadership,” Ocasio-Cortez said. “The structural shifts of power in the House, both in process and rule, to concentrate power in party leadership of both parties, frankly, but in Democratic Party leadership to such a degree that an individual member has far less power than they did 30, 40, 50 years ago.”

This dynamic is what pushes the “really talented members of Congress that do come along” to leave or run for statewide office instead. But Pelosi has also indicated that this upcoming term could be her last, “and the left isn’t really making a plan for that either,” Ocasio-Cortez added. “So I do think that it’s something that we really need to think about.”

If progressives do threaten to withhold their support from Pelosi, Ocasio-Cortez said, their demand shouldn’t be merely for a floor vote on Medicare for All, which is sure to fail. Instead, she believes, progressives should fight some of the bigger structural obstacles in the way of Medicare for All, like pay-go, an austerity provision that makes it difficult for Democrats to pass more ambitious policies, or replacing conservative Democratic Rep. Richie Neal as head of the Ways and Means Committee. “We are currently negotiating to get and work towards real material concessions for the left that can move things into place, to help build power for the next two years,” she said.

The New York congresswoman shot down the possibility of running for the position any time soon. “The House is extraordinarily complex and I’m not ready,” she said. “It can’t be me. I know that I couldn’t do that job.”

https://theintercept.com/2020/12/16/aoc-nancy-pelosi-needs-to-go-but-theres-nobody-to-replace-her-yet/

[ehrnst]

54. "I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party" - AOC, 12/16

Again, it's in the *podcast* at that link. The Intercept headline paraphrased in the article about the Podcast (which you can listen to in that link you keep posting.)

Other articles quoted her. Here's one:

After she expressed her confusion and frustration about the “lack of urgency” within Congress, Scahill asked if this might be grounds for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer to step down from their positions and make way for new, younger leaders. “I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party,” [link:"https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/12/10231085/aoc-says-its-time-for-change-in-the-democratic-party,"|Ocasio-Cortez said].

Here's another:

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/aoc-says-leadership-democratic-party-190709190.html

So, yes, she said that. Wishing it wasn't true, and continuing to link to an article that didn't include that quote doesn't change that.

[bigtree]

59. an obvious distortion of her discussion

...and what she said.

Why post distortions like this? Why so eager to make it appear AOC is threatening the party?

[ehrnst]

60. "I do think we need new leadership in the Democratic Party" - AOC, 12/16

All these articles quote her. It's not a distortion. Saying that it's a distortion is what's untrue.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/aoc-says-leadership-democratic-party-190709190.html

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/aoc-says-leadership-democratic-party-190709190.html

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/530464-ocasio-cortez-im-not-ready-to-be-speaker-but-pelosi-and-schumer-need-to-go

Also in the podcast that you keep linking to, but haven't listened to.

You can keep saying it, and wishing it but that doesn't make it so.

I know that it's embarassing to be corrected, but more so to double down and go on the offensive.

[bigtree]

71. you're dead wrong

...and everyone can read the context, so give it a rest.

[ehrnst]

73. "I do think we need new leadership in the Democratic Party" - AOC, 12/16

Fact. You are the one who is wrong.

Still having issues with admitting that you made a mistake, and someone you don't like pointed it out?

Doubling down is not a way to lend credibility to one's statements.

[PTWB]

83. I agree with bigtree.

The context of the quote makes it quite clear that AOC is talking about improving the quality and depth our bench, improving the way we groom future leaders, and preparing the next generation of leaders to take the reins when necessary.

Those are inarguably good things for our party.

[tonedevil]

84. Is there anyone who doesn't think...

we need new leadership in the Democratic party? Not necessarily the immediate removal of everyone at the top, but those in Democratic leadership currently skew older and the need to make sure there is a new generation ready to fill the inevitable void has been a concern of many. Is there a quote where Representative Ocasio-Cortez calls for the immediate replacement of Speaker Pelosi?

[ehrnst]

86. No one stated that she did call for the immediate replacement of Speaker Pelosi.

If one needs to attack a strawman to make one's point, then perhaps one's point needs to to be reexamined.

But tell me this: If Speaker Pelosi had stated that Democrats needed "new leadership in NY district 14," you'd TOTALLY think that it was in no way criticizing or diminishing AOC's performance of that job, right?

[tonedevil]

92. Speaker Pelosi...

is one of the most senior members of the Democratic leadership so by virtue of that she is included in the statement "I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party". I guess if that is your point then it is true, even if it is tediously trivial.
It isn't a particularly stinging rebuke and since the rest of her talk she indicates she sees no current alternative to voting Pelosi Speaker at this time and mentions Speaker Pelosi herself bringing up the idea of this being her last session it is hard to say she is straying from the party. She even mentioned that the left, in which she seems to include herself, isn't ready to step up.

[PTWB]

82. You're absolutely right, bigtree.

We’ve got a case of folks hearing what they want to hear and imagining context that supports a preconceived notion.

I really appreciate your diligence and dedication to fact instead of feeling. I, too, am still waiting for a quote that supports the claim.

AOC campaigned hard for Biden this year. She voted for Pelosi in 2018 for speaker. AOC rejected calls to ‘force’ Pelosi to hold an M4A vote.

Those are the facts.

Here is the full quote where it is clear she’s calling for changes to the way we groom future leaders so that we always have a deep bench of leaders to choose from. That’s smart strategy and is absolutely something we ought to be doing.

For the record I think Pelosi has been the most effective speaker in many years. We are lucky to have her. 🤷🏻‍♂️

"I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party ... the internal dynamics of the House has made it such that there's very little option for succession," said Ocasio-Cortez, who is 31. "It's easy for someone to say, 'Oh well, you know, why don't you run?' but the House is extraordinarily complex, and I'm not ready. It can't be me. I know that I couldn't do that job."

"Even conservative members of the party who think Nancy Pelosi is far too liberal for them don't necessarily have any viable alternatives, which is why whenever there's a challenge, it kind of collapses," she continued. "And that is, I think, the result of just many years of power being concentrated in leadership with lack of ... real grooming of a next generation of leadership."

[ehrnst]

87. Bigtree said that she never said that... because the quote wasn't include in the Intercept article.

Also.. quoting her as saying ""I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party" was an "obvious distortion" of what she said.

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=14731023

Just an FYI.

[PTWB]

88. Curious, why do you only cut out one sentence of the quote?

The context makes it quite clear what she’s talking about—she isn’t attacking our party, she is trying to make sure that our party stays strong for generations.

[George II]

91. Right in your own post:

"...the caucus’s current leaders spent a number of years concentrating power without any “real grooming of a next generation of leadership.”

“A lot of this is not just about these two personalities, but also about the structural shifts that these two personalities have led in their time in leadership,”

Who is she talking about, Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell? No - Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer.

And then we have this, admitting that "the left" is doing exactly what she accused Pelosi of doing:

Pelosi has also indicated that this upcoming term could be her last, “and the left isn’t really making a plan for that either"

So there you have it.

[tonedevil]

99. Is that what you call a direct shot? /nt

[George II]

103. Yes. As direct as one can be. Bashing the Democratic House leader. There's only one....

....Democratic House Leader - Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

[tonedevil]

107. You are being specific...

where she is being general. She did not say House leader she said the Democratic Party leadership. Given in that same interview she makes it clear there is no choice for Speaker at this time except Pelosi she isn't really trying to foment revolution on the House floor.

[George II]

109. I am being specific. She never mentioned Democratic "Party" leadership, she was talking about....

....Democratic leadership in the House and Senate.

[tonedevil]

114. It isn't calling for immediate replacement...

simply pointing out that Democratic leadership is mostly older and a new generation needs to be ready. In answer to a question about Speaker Pelosi and Senate Minority Leader Schumer stepping down she said the Democratic party needs new leadership. It is a general answer to a specific and loaded question.
Speaker Pelosi is the best choice for Speaker this term and the Democratic party needs new leadership. Both things are true.

[George II]

115. It is not so subtly pointing out that Democratic House and Senate leadership failed.

[tonedevil]

116. If you say so. /nt

[mcar]

32. Who are you talking about?

She makes white suburban fake liberals nervous.

Those of us on DU who offer constructive criticism to the congressperson? Nancy Pelosi - is she a white suburban fake liberal?

I'm curious as to whom you are addressing this to.

[Cha]

70. Wow.. Such name calling..

that Never ends well.

Liberal here who has NO FEAR!

[mcar]

85. It's gone

I'd still like to know who it was talking about.

[sheshe2]

111. Sorry I missed that.

Would love to know who the were referring to.

[George II]

95. Wow, if that's a sample of it, I'm shocked. Almost sounds like trump with his "white suburban" crap.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

23. I especially appreciate the dissonance

of heaping finger wagging at AOC while also welcoming Steve Schmidt into the party with open arms. Seems like some that say the party is a big tent don't quite have the real estate available on the left side of the tent.

[KG]

35. seems AOC isn't the 'right kind' of democrat but a former republican is.

I've had a good chuckle over this.

[Sympthsical]

50. It's not dissonance if your disposition is already conservative

You have to realize, we're mainly dealing with a cohort of "I got mine" types when observing who viciously goes after AOC whenever she says anything at all.

[burrowowl]

90. Good replique

[George II]

96. And yet the one you speak of thinks the "big tent" of the Democratic Party is too big, so I guess...

....the "lack" of real estate shouldn't be a problem, eh?

[AmericanCanuck]

25. False equivalence and whataboutism

Those Democrats did not threaten to primary anyone or sic radical candidates against other members.

Voting within the caucus is how it is done. Also, the gracious Nancy Pelosi got over it and didn't attack those people on twitter.

[bigtree]

28. you mean to say that a Democrat challenged another Democrat in our primary??

...the horrors!

I'm going to need some time to process this.

[AmericanCanuck]

30. It is not the actual running that bothers me

It is the immediate threats to primary any Democrat in good standing only because they are not as radical as one would be in a deep blue area.

Also, it is sort of like the latest hire in a corporation as a junior officer wanting to replace the entire management team. One has to create a coalition of actual Democrats in the house. Twitter following doesn't help with the hard work of legislating progress.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

41. You know that, definitionally, a primary is two people of the same party

and exist so that the actual people represented can pick who they want on the ticket. AOC won the primary because more people voting wanted her to run and then she won the general election. It's no going against the party to primary someone.

[ehrnst]

44. No, saying that leadership should be replaces is not like running against a member of your

party in a primary.

Not even close.

Imagine the response from many here on this thread if Pelosi was to even suggest that AOC be primaried, and support another candidate against her. You think that would be brushed off as just "Democrats disagreeing?"

Madame Speaker simply made a remark about numbers of twitter followers not giving anyone extra say on the House floor, and there were cries that Madame Speaker was "singling out women of color," in a disrespectful way.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

47. Good thing AOC didn't say that.

She said, recently, that she didn't think leadership was being groomed to replace current leadership.

But, hey, whatever makes one feel better about punching left, I guess.

[ehrnst]

51. Re read my post.

I added to it.



And apparently you didn't listen to the podcast, where she said this:

"I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party," Ocasio-Cortez said.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/12/10231085/aoc-says-its-time-for-change-in-the-democratic-party

You can listen to the podcast at this link:

https://theintercept.com/2020/12/16/aoc-nancy-pelosi-needs-to-go-but-theres-nobody-to-replace-her-yet/

You're welcome.

[bigtree]

53. that is false

...the discussion was not about forcing the Speaker out. The comment was directed to a not so distant future when the Speaker may well not be in Congress anymore.

It's not so hard to read the remarks in context, apparently more difficult for some to relate them correctly.

from the Intercept article:

"Pelosi has also indicated that this upcoming term could be her last, “and the left isn’t really making a plan for that either,” Ocasio-Cortez added. “So I do think that it’s something that we really need to think about.”

"

[boston bean]

55. Some how, some way there is speaker a elected. Right now it is Pelosi.

[bigtree]

57. and AOC has supported her twice now for leadership

...

[boston bean]

58. And????

[ehrnst]

62. But as of Wednesday, she seems to have changed her mind.

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/530464-ocasio-cortez-im-not-ready-to-be-speaker-but-pelosi-and-schumer-need-to-go

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/aoc-says-leadership-democratic-party-190709190.html

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/12/10231085/aoc-says-its-time-for-change-in-the-democratic-party

[bigtree]

72. blocking you for spamming me

...talking to yourself in 3,2,1...

[ehrnst]

74. It's hard being corrected, I understand. And being corrected every time one doubles down

can be embarassing.

[ehrnst]

64. "I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party," Ocasio-Cortez said.

No one stated that she wants to "force" anything. That's a distortion of what people are saying,

She's voicing her opinion that Pelosi should be replaced.

You want to keep on saying that she supports Pelosi.

Saying someone should be replaced is not support.

First you claim that she didn't say what she said, now you are moving the goalposts by saying that she "has supported her in the past."

[Cuthbert Allgood]

56. Interesting that you didn't quote this paragraph from the article

Ocasio-Cortez clarified on the podcast that she doesn't want to replace Pelosi as Speaker, saying she isn’t ready and “couldn’t do that job.” But, she also emphasized that the left needs to start looking ahead. “The Speaker has indicated that she may be looking at transitioning and leaving at some point and the left isn’t really making a plan for that, either,” she said. “So I do think that it’s something that we really need to think about.”

Which seems to accurately represent what AOC has been saying all along and not the shock headlines people want to post.

[ehrnst]

63. She said that she didn't want to be the new Speaker, but still said leadership needed

to change.

“I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party,” Ocasio-Cortez said.

Those headlines are accurate when they state that she believes Pelosi should be replaced.

You're welcome

[Cuthbert Allgood]

66. She didn't say that she SHOULD be replaced

but that eventually she would not be Speaker any longer. Do you think Nancy is immortal?

You're welcome.

[ehrnst]

69. That's a stretch...

“I do think that we need new leadership in the Democratic Party,” Ocasio-Cortez said.

That isn't an advocacy of current leadership, much as you want people to believe that it is. Advocacy would have been "Nancy is a great Speaker, and I am not sure who will replace her when she leaves."

Clearer?

Do you think Nancy is immortal?

That's both a strawman and a false dillema.

You seem to have missed that this started when I rebutted the OP's claim that they had never seen AOC not support or advocate for Speaker Pelosi. I pointed out her exact words stated on Wednesday of this very week. Many goalposts have been moved in an attempt to avoid admitting that mistake, including denying that she said those words and accusing others of "distorting" her words, which is likely where you got off track in following what I have been consistently providing evidence of.

If Pelosi said "I think that NY 14th district needs new representation," and someone else said, "Pelosi doesn't want AOC gone - AOC will have to leave at some time in the future. Do you think AOC is immortal?" I presume you'd agree?



I hope that clears up your confusion.

[panader0]

29. AOC makes the Republicans nervous,

and quite a few Democrats, including some on this site.

[Fiendish Thingy]

37. AOC, and those who think like her, are the future of the party and of America

It may take 20+ years, and lots of struggle, but the demographic shift is unstoppable.

In 30 years, AOC could be considered a centrist.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

42. AOC is solidly a progressive

but thanks for your concern.

[LiberalFighter]

31. I get tired of people complaining about how the DNC or House/Senate Democrats run campaigns.

Last edited Fri Dec 18, 2020, 05:42 PM - Edit history (1)

And campaigns complaining about the messaging from House/Senate leaderships.

Grow up! It is your campaign to run. You decide what message works best in your district. Any mistakes are yours. Not the House/Senate leaderships or DNC. They provide the tools and you decide how to use them.

[bigtree]

33. 'grow up?' lol

...I'm 60 years old, and have been fighting the same campaign against moderation since I was a young man looking for my government to truly represent me.

One important thing I've learned along the way is if we tailor our demands to only what politicians think will get them elected, that's all they'll provide us.

Good luck with your advanced age.

[StarfishSaver]

61. Thank you!

When candidates win, it's because they ran great campaigns, connected with the voters, had a solid message, etc.

When candidates lose, it's all Nancy Pelosi's and the DNC's fault.

[bigtree]

75. the meme today is about defund and socialism

...losing elections for redstaters.

Kind of the opposite of what you're going on about.

Where are these progressive candidates blaming moderates for their loss? How ridiculous, when all of the reports are about moderates blaming something someone said somewhere.

[Hortensis]

43. You missed my posts. They had no one fit to replace Pelosi as speaker,

which puts checks on them all as underprincipled opportunists who need special scrutiny. Always. That includes Kathleen Rice.

Some of them we know were repaying debt to one or more of the #FiveWhiteMen who gave them money and/or other support to help get them elected. So those people came in at least somewhat bought, just as those McConnell helps get elected. But they claimed they had no choice but to fulfill promises made to clueless voters who'd been frothed up by lies about Pelosi and Democrats.

Did I say there WAS no replacement for Pelosi at that time, but they didn't care?

[Sympthsical]

45. AOC is walking across an awful lot of lawns

It's just how that's going to go for another 5-10 years. At this point, I figure let people have their last shindig. Millennials started turning 40 this year. That change check is in the mail.

[AmericanCanuck]

67. It has been shown that people become more moderate as they age

A lot of the flower children from the 60's even became republicans.

[Sympthsical]

80. Because they "got theirs"

And they do not understand how today's economy truly works against the younger generations.

There's a very, very anti-AOC person around who once told this charming story of how they worked part time at a gas station to get through college, and why couldn't kids today do the same? No inkling of how the student loan crisis has/is crushing my generation.

And the environment? Who cares. They'll be gone.

Sometimes, moderation is not a virtue. Sometimes, moderation is an opponent to change. If we think we're going to elect a Democrat and then be happy with the same old moderate incrementalism, people need to open their eyes. We do not have time for this anymore. The environment is literally on life support. Inequality is approaching Robber Baron status. Covid should be showing us how broken our healthcare system is.

I find the people always promoting "baby steps, baby steps" are the ones who can afford it.

Because they got theirs.

[AmericanCanuck]

100. This is true not just in politics

Even in crime, hardened criminals become calm and less violent as they age. Recidivism after age 35 is very rare. Also, as people age, they are able to see both sides of the issue which many young people in their passion are either unaware of or don't want to learn about.

[Bettie]

97. As people gain wealth they become more conservative

Millenials, by and large, are not gaining wealth as they age. The boomers are the last ones to actually do that as a rule.

GenX, not anywhere close to where their parents were at their age.

Millenials, even farther behind.

So, Millenials and Z may end up staying more liberal, because the 'wealth' of our society is concentrated in a ever shrinking number of bank accounts.

[treestar]

46. AOC gets more attention

She has somehow gotten herself to a position of prominence.

I have not heard of Slotkin. Nobody makes a big deal about her, says she should be POTUS, that she is the future, that she is brilliant, and Slotkin has not distinguished herself.

Now having heard of her, she is just as blind, with the view that Midwesterners need to get the seat - well they have to win the vote for it. And why would they be any better than NY and California people?

[Demsrule86]

65. Remember a guy named Tim Ryan? There was still 'guff' when he ran for president.

He is my former and soon to my current rep.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tim+ryan+challenges+nancy+pelosi&rlz=1C1UEAD_enUS932US932&oq=tim+ryan+challenges+nancy+pelosi&aqs=chrome..69i57.10148j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Why Seth Moulton is backing Nancy Pelosi as House speaker ...www.boston.com › news › politics › 2020/11/09 › seth...
Nov 9, 2020 — Seth Moulton tried to oust Nancy Pelosi as House speaker. ... That reality spells a challenging path for the Biden administration's hopes of ...

The Pathetic Pelosi Putsch - POLITICO Magazinewww.politico.com › magazine › story › 2018/11/26 › s...
Nov 26, 2018 — Seth Moulton and friends said they would take down the first female speaker of the House. ... Nancy Pelosi stands at a podium with her hands in the air ... for a “new generation of leadership” who would put “people over politics. ... Meanwhile, the nine Democratic centrists in the Problems Solvers Caucus ...

Rep. Seth Moulton faces town-hall pushback for opposing Pelosiwww.politico.com › story › 2018/11/19 › seth-moulton...
Nov 19, 2018 — Seth Moulton against House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi's bid to ... Moulton said the inaction in Congress on issues like gun reform and ...


'Her skills are real': How Pelosi put down a Democratic ...www.washingtonpost.com › powerpost


2018/12/13
Dec 13, 2018 — Nancy Pelosi's opponents knew they had an opportunity. ... Moulton had drawn up list of 58 Democrats who he knew wanted a new leader. ... “It's incredibly challenging to put together the votes for anything in Congress, and ...

Why 63 House Democrats voted to oust Nancy Pelosi - The ...www.washingtonpost.com › news › the-fix › 2016/11/30
Nov 30, 2016 — Tim Ryan says he lost an 'uphill battle' to Nancy Pelosi ... just survived her most serious leadership challenge in more than a decade. ... (Though Pelosi did meet her self-set expectation of winning two-thirds of ... Seth Moulton of Massachusetts explaining Wednesday why he wouldn't be voting for Pelosi:.

Here are the House Democrats who oppose Nancy Pelosi for ...www.vox.com › policy-and-politics › 2018/11/15 › na...
Nov 28, 2018 — The number of House Democrats opposing Nancy Pelosi's bid for House speaker ... the 218 votes to be speaker and encourage another person to challenge her. Tim Ryan (D-OH); Seth Moulton (D-MA); Kathleen Rice (D-NY) ...
Missing: set ‎| Must include: set

Please note I did have too google but there was definitely push back.

[lapucelle]

68. Not only did Slotkin flip a red district blue, but she is also a hard core liberal.

What made you characterize her as a "moderate" when her voting record says otherwise?


Elissa Slotkin is a Hard-Core Liberal

https://www.ontheissues.org/MI/Elissa_Slotkin.htm
https://bit.ly/37wYf7t

[ehrnst]

76. Facts...

Underrated at times, yes?

[Demsrule86]

81. She ran as a moderate...

Slotkin, who was part of Democrats blue wave that rolled over several House Congressional races in 2018, was among the few representatives to flip a battleground district when she first ran for office.

Competing in the politically-mixed district that stretches from liberal Ingham County to conservative Macomb County, Slotkin’s win cemented her identity as one of the Democrat’s more moderate representatives that could prove a force in future Michigan politics.


She also said that Donald Trump owed his success to the fact he doesn't talk down to people...something she feels some in our party do.

"7. Democrats talk down to people, rather than just talk to people. With passion for your cause comes conviction. And moderate Democratic Rep. Elissa Slotkin in Michigan is worried that Democrats can be too forceful about their opinions in a way that closes the door to anyone who doesn’t agree. She told Politico Magazine she thinks the party could take a page from Trump: “We sometimes make people feel like they aren’t conscientious enough. They aren’t thoughtful enough. They aren’t ‘woke’ enough. They aren’t smart enough or educated enough to just understand what’s good for them. … It’s talking down to people. It’s alienating them.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/11/14/all-reasons-democrats-say-they-did-poorly-down-ballot/

[lapucelle]

89. Slotkin's voting record shows her to be a liberal. Opinion writers may assume

that because she sounds measured, she must be a "moderate", but Slotkin's actual voting record shows otherwise.

Opinion writers may have pigeonholed her as a "moderate" to help them advance a facile narrative about Democrats.

Here she is compared to fellow Michigander Rashida Tlaib:


Rashida Tlaib is a Hard-Core Liberal

*************************************************************************************************


Elissa Slotkin is a Hard-Core Liberal

https://www.ontheissues.org

[bigtree]

93. she's a proud member of the centrist, Blue Dog 'Problem Solver's Caucus'

...pretending she's a liberal by showing that discredited ideology chart at 'ontheissues.com' is cute, but false.

Problem Solvers Caucus is a 50-member group made up of moderate House Democrats and Republicans, who regularly work to undercut the House leadership.

[lapucelle]

98. She's a problem solver with a liberal voting record, and I'm "cute" when I "pretend".

Oh dear.

[George II]

101. So when and where did she "undercut the House leadership"? You claiming she's a FAKE liberal....

....here? Seriously?

The fact is, she's a DEMOCRAT from the important swing state of Michigan. Why do you have to be so insulting to a DEMOCRATIC member of the House of Representatives? When are DEMOCRATS a problem for people on DEMOCRATIC Underground?

Seriously?

[George II]

122. Debbie Dingell is a "proud" member of the Problem Solvers Caucus too - is she a "moderate"?

Certainly not. As a matter of fact, she and her late husband AND her late father in law have been advocates of a form of "Medicare for All", going back decades. Her husband chaired the House session when Medicare was passed in 1965.

Progressive Punch rates her "progressive" score higher than every member of the "squad" (she's #48, while the others are 115, 129, 156, and 169) She doesn't just talk about it, she does it.

And yes, she's a member of the Problem Solvers Caucus!

[George II]

131. Representative Darren Soto of Florida is also a member of both the Congressional....

....Progressive Caucus and the Problem Solver Caucus.

[Demsrule86]

105. She ran as a moderate. I sent you the article. That is why she is still in office.

It it is a tough seat.

[Demsrule86]

106. My reply double posted...happened a couple of times today.

[Yavin4]

79. If congressional Dems could somehow channel that same anti-AOC energy against McConnell

man, our representatives would be unstoppable.

[JI7]

94. Pelosi IS a liberal. So it makes sense why those from conservative distrcts might not support her

But what sense does it make to support old men like Sanders and Ed Markey but think Pelosi needs to go.

Weird that do many are unaware about the basics of politics.

Pelosi knows she isn't popular in conservative areas AMD is ok with them not supporting her because them winning the seat helps her be speaker.

[grantcart]

102. Well I am sure that I unloaded all the guff I had stored up on those guys

and although I am ideologically to the right of AOC I liked her and think that she is a lot.l deeper than Sanders and has the capacity to grow.

I don't think that it is a secret that we are approaching a generational change in the House but we have big time talent coming up like Schiff and Jeffries.

[Hekate]

117. For Pete's sake. Are you really asking us for our bona fides? I do not recall being silent --ever--...

...to super-minority Democratic efforts to shit-can Nancy Pelosi. Search the DU files on all of us who disagree with you. Please proceed.

GMAB

[bigtree]

119. nowhere near the AOC hysteria

...not even close.

But thanks for stopping by.

[Hekate]

120. Not hysteria, but YMMV

[Progressive dog]

124. I'll bet AOC is quoted on here and in the media

much more than other critics of Pelosi. That might be why she is herself criticized by the majority of Democrats who support Pelosi.

[Dem4Life1102]

125. What is interesting is

I’ve seen very few people denounce this guy for not supporting Pelosi.

And voted against Pelosi for speaker while AOC voted for her.

[Bettie]

126. White men can say what they want to

AOC is a woman, young, and not white, HOW DARE SHE!

That seems to be the main point.

[George II]

128. He was.

[Dem4Life1102]

130. Good to hear

[bigtree]

129. If you do a DU google search with Max and mushy peas

...still nothing.