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Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:48 PM

Other than Katie Porter & a couple others, the Democratic Party STILL doesn't know how to fight back

All they're doing is talking when they should be screaming bloody murder. All they're doing is nothing when they should be taking action, doing something about it, anything. If our Party knew how to fight back, Trump, McConnell, Graham, McCarthy and their ilk would be up shit's creek by now, treasonous pukes that they all are. Good god, if the shoe was on the other foot and we were acting like them, they would have run us out of town a long time ago. Just imagine what the GOP would have done in a heartbeat if Barack Obama and Harry Reid had acted like Trump and Mitch McConnell for even 10 minutes, let alone for 4 years and counting.

I like Chuck Schumer alright, but come on, Chuck as the minority voice of the Senate? Really? Find someone similar to James Carville to lead the Senate, someone who knows how to fight and doesn't mince their words. Or even better yet, have Katie Porter give all our people a lesson in How to Fight 101. It's way beyond frustrating to see our Party get kicked in the teeth all the time just because they don't fight back hard enough.

It's no small wonder that Trump continues with his fucking nonsense when he knows we're not going to do anything about it. Will we ever learn how to play the game? We we ever learn how to fight fire with fire?

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Reply Other than Katie Porter & a couple others, the Democratic Party STILL doesn't know how to fight back (Original post)
mtnsnake Dec 2020 OP
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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:50 PM

1. Yeah! Blame the Democrats!

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Response to sweetloukillbot (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:55 PM

4. I don't want to sit back and watch them do nothing like you obviously prefer to do.

I want actions taken, not just empty words for. JHC

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:54 PM

124. What specific actions do you want

"them" to take? As a Dem, what specific actions are YOU taking? Besides posting complaints on DU?

I see a lot of action going on. I see people donating to the Georgia runoff in order to gain control of the Senate. I see people doing phone banking for Georgia Dem candidates, and giving public support in social media.

I see Pelosi and Schumer negotiating the best deal they were able to get under the present circumstances and determined to work for more when President Biden takes office.

I see Trump and his allies being called out by Dem leaders, in social media and TV interviews.

I see how the steady, determined work of getting through the obstacles to impeachment undercut the Trump smear against Biden so that Biden became our very successful candidate.

I think the kind of flashy fighting that you are calling for would look good and accomplish little besides increasing the vitriol and pushing people to dig in even deeper in opposition to each other.

Sometimes steady, hard work is not immediately gratifying, but pays off much more in the long run than flashy battles of the moment. Why feed the R's with battles for a position that we have already won, like the presidency and preservation of democracy - this time around.

For those who like battles, there will be plenty to engage in when we have the upper hand and the fascists try to undercut us. For now, let's focus on the Georgia battle to gain the upper hand and then use it wisely and strategically when we do have it.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:09 PM

143. THIS

Are we supposed to act like Proud Boys? That would certainly be "fighting" but I can't recommend it.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:18 PM

153. Beautiful!

Thank you!

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:24 PM

160. ⭐⭐ PERFECT! ⭐⭐

Thank you!

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:25 PM

162. Thank you!

These constant "Why didn't/don't Democrats stop ______ ?" complaints are annoying.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #162)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 03:35 AM

280. 10-4 that.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:01 PM

181. why do so many DUers assume the only action we take is beefing here?

seriously

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Response to Skittles (Reply #181)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:12 PM

199. So tell us more about the actions.

Maybe more of the actions and less complaints about the perceived inactions.

I know it is disheartening to hear Trumpists spouting lies and to see them trying to undo the election. It causes me anxiety at times and pure, outraged anger.

But I also see teams of expert Dem lawyers handling it and it makes me proud. I see Biden taking a calm, very confident role in leadership, pushing forward with his and our agenda, which will benefit all of us (even the trumpist fools), letting nothing stop him or sidetrack him.

During the Obama years, especially in the beginning of 2009, we did not see all that he was doing to salvage the economy and stave off a full blown depression. But, he did it. Calmly (at least on the surface), with no big fanfare, just the steady, hard work of gathering experts and making decisions. It worked. No depression. The economy turned around, slowly, partly due to the magnitude of the problem and partly due to R obstructionism. The great economy that Trump took credit for was the long term result of what Obama did.

I think Obama could have done more to keep the public informed on his economic accomplishments, and I have read that Michelle told him the same thing. But he got it done and all of us benefited, although it's harder to appreciate what didn't happen.

Same with Biden. He did not let Trump's BS sidetrack him. He steered a steady course. It paid off.

We will get the fascist lawbreakers. I am confident of that. But to do it, we need to see clearly what we have accomplished so far, what our long term goals are, and do the work of getting there, without being sidetracked by the trashy things Trump and his fascist thugs are trying to draw attention to.

I think we could benefit from remembering the Civil Rights slogan of the 1960s and 1970s: EYES ON THE PRISE.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #199)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:24 PM

224. the bar is set very low for repukes

honestly it reminds me of the old adage that women have to be twice as good as men to be seen as half as good - that's the way it is with Democrats - they have to be twice as good as repukes to be seen as half as good. I just wish Democrats could be SEEN being more being outraged while those expert lawyers are "handling it"......remember how repukes treated Benghazi? Hillary's emails? Yeah it was all bullshit but IT WORKED. Now, repukes are trying to OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF AN ELECTION. THEY ARE SILENT ABOUT RUSSIA'S HACKING. They've completely FUCKED up on the Covid response and the stimulus bill. WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #224)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 10:47 PM

242. Where is the outrage?

It's being channeled into energy to call voters in Georgia and make sure we have the power to shut down Moscow Mitch. It's all over social media, from political leaders to ordinary citizens. It's in the donations to the Georgia campaigns. It's in interviews with citizens and politicians.

Benghazi bullshit - Is that the kind of thing you think we should be doing? Seriously? We should become like the people we detest? When we do that, we will have lost both the battles and the war because then we will be helping magas create the kind of country and politics they want.

Remember what a sore winner Trump was in 2016 when he complained about the popular vote? We won the presidential election. Trump does not have a snowball's chance in hell of overturning it. We have a decent chance of winning the Senate. Should we become sore winners, too?

If we gain the Senate, we will still have battles ahead of us to prevent the fascist BS from growing and spreading. We will need to push for investigations and accountability. There is a lot of corruption to clean up.

If we do not win the Senate, we will still have to push for accountability and clean up of corruption. We will have to work hard to hold our own against the 2022 midterms. We should work to increase our numbers in 2022.

What we want and need is the power positions to carry out the accountability, clean up, and new direction that the country needs.

I would not underestimate the value of the contrast that Biden and his chosen cabinet make to Trump's incompetence. Their leadership and professionalism expose the Trump phoniness and set the tone and direction that we need. 81 million people chose them to do that.

Pelosi, Schiff, Nadler, and many others exposed the attempted Trump smear campaign. Despite how it looked, with subpoenas being ignored and the Senate refusing to hold a trial, we won because the scam was exposed, allowing Biden to run successfully and unseat Trump and his whole gang. Appearances are not everything. Results are what matter. The result of the election is that Biden keeps going, full steam ahead, despite Trump's attention-seeking sideshow.

Trump's multiple losses and constant whining look weak and childish in comparison. Substance wins over appearances, and actually changes appearances.



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Response to wnylib (Reply #242)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:48 PM

252. ok, done here

it went completely over your head

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Response to Skittles (Reply #252)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:54 PM

255. Interesting that I was thinking it

went over your head. So we can't agree.

Have a good night.

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Response to Skittles (Reply #252)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:11 AM

258. Not sure how you can read wnylib's post and assume anything went over their head

It's one of clearest and most cogent responses in this thread.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #258)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 06:46 AM

288. Agreed. Why win elections when you could scream on tv? nt

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Response to wnylib (Reply #199)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 10:19 AM

302. Excellent perspective

I too at times become filled with angst and concern when I perceive meek responses to something said or done which is clearly outrageous, and while it might feel good to me to see the occasional smack down against the daily atrocities, I do understand the better path is one that is measured, mature and sometimes understated. But there needs to be a balance I think.

Saying that is easier said than done.

ETA: Yes, we need to keep our eyes on the prize. Winning Georgia with be a miracle but one hell of a prize too.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:35 PM

190. Thank you.

Nailed it!

wnylib

124. What specific actions do you want

"them" to take? As a Dem, what specific actions are YOU taking? Besides posting complaints on DU?

I see a lot of action going on. I see people donating to the Georgia runoff in order to gain control of the Senate. I see people doing phone banking for Georgia Dem candidates, and giving public support in social media.


I see Pelosi and Schumer negotiating the best deal they were able to get under the present circumstances and determined to work for more when President Biden takes office.


Fact is it is not just up to the politicians, it is up to We The People as well. We vote with massive turnout we win. We white people should not leave the the heavy lifting to the true base of Democrats...that would be black women. And no one ever should leave that voting booth and say, 'my job is done here'. Sorry, you leave that voting booth and your job has just begun.

Thank you for your post, wnylib!



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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #190)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:42 PM

207. Yes, we the people have as much

responsibility to act as our leaders do.

And you are spot on that Black women have been shouldering a large part of getting out the vote, and working for change.

Several years ago, when I was going through a rough time, a friend and her husband listened to my rants and offered support. Then one day, her husband told me it was time to drop the complaints and focus on a plan of action to actually DO something about my situation. He was right, and I did. Complaints are just the beginning of recognizing that something is wrong. If the complaints are valid, they should motivate us to specific corrective actions. If they don't, then we waste away our lives and opportunities by doing nothing.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #190)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:14 PM

219. People are going to have to get more involved and invested in society if change is happening.

Glad to see more people realizing that they can make a difference and not give in to hopeless cynicism.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #219)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:01 PM

243. In order to evolve...

In order to evolve we must involve ourselves every day, 365 days of the year. It is not our elected officials alone that will make that change. You just can't say, we elected you, you're on your own. You can't just say Democrats are spinless unless we have the spine to support them every dayum day.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #243)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:10 PM

244. The solution given here is for more protests in the streets, strong language,

and to "turn the tables" and do to them what they do to us.

This does not seem like a good plan.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #244)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:16 PM

245. It's a thousand times better than your plan

which is to do absolutely nothing about their shenanigans and sit back and take whatever they dish out.

FYI, Democrats should certainly be able to govern AND fight back at the same time. As someone already mentioned, Democrats should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I think our Party is capable of doing that.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #245)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:25 PM

248. When did I have a plan to do nothing and sit back?

Democrats do fight back, they've gotten a lot of progressive legislature (including a higher minimum wage and decriminalizing marijuana) passed in the House, there have been more protests in last few years than before, strong language is used (including the f-word). More people are voting, not giving up that their vote doesn't matter. Democrats do govern and fight back -- without enough votes they are incapable of getting legislature passed. That's a fact. No matter how anybody yells and uses strong language. Most Americans don't know which party is to blame, they blame both when there's conflict.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #248)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:08 AM

291. It's easier to attack a strawman than to admit that one doesn't have a

 

logical rather than emotional response, however more embarassing to keep flailing away at that strawman in response after response after response to anyone who disagrees.

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #291)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 11:12 AM

306. I really wanted to know how I had a terrible plan to sit back and do nothing!

Guess I'll never know my personal complacent status quo plan now.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #306)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 11:38 AM

310. Apparently if you don't demand that Dems "scream bloody murder on TV every day"

 

which is purported to be a sure fire method by which they can totally get Mitch McConnell and the Trump humpers to turn on Trump and give Democrats everything that we want, that means you "want to do nothing," and endorse Democratic leaders "sitting on their thumbs," whatever that means.

There are no other options, from what I can gather from one poster here.

Who could possibly argue with that?



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Response to betsuni (Reply #244)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:25 PM

247. Hm.

"turn the tables" and do to them what they do to us.


I for one do not want our party to become liars and cheaters or to use the Constitution as toilet paper. Enough said.

I plead the fifth for the rest I want to say.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #247)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:40 PM

250. I agree. It just doesn't work that way. Democratic voters aren't like Republican voters who don't

vote on policy, they vote despite policies they don't even like. Also, people don't want angry populist anti-establishment rhetoric these days.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #247)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:14 AM

259. I've never understood why some Democrats think the only way to beat Republicans

is to behave like the worst of them.

Not being like them is the primary reason we're Democrats. Otherwise, what's the point?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #259)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:22 AM

263. All the complaints that Democrats are Republican Lite and so on and now this.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #263)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:28 AM

266. I find the "Democrats need to scream louder" to be the most immature form of political engagenent

It's the politics of grievance - expecting leaders to throw them red meat to satisfy their anger and frustration, not caring if it actually results in any progress or positive outcomes. They just want their emotions fed.

We wonder why Trump's base is so devoted to him. But he provides the same emotional satisfaction to his angry crowds that some Democrats seem to want from our leaders.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #266)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:38 AM

268. Yes. Emotion, anger and loud screaming as "fighting" is immature.

Results matter. Republicans have no goal besides power.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #268)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:58 AM

271. Betsuni, every Republican out there will surely agree with you

that we should just roll over and play dead. Might as well tell them to hit us again because it feels so good, right?

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #271)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:01 AM

273. I don't know where you're getting the "roll over and play dead" thing.

What do you mean?

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #271)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 08:47 AM

289. False dilemma AND a strawman fallacy

 

A false dilemma (sometimes called false dichotomy) is a type of informal, correlative-based fallacy in which a statement falsely claims or assumes an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional logically valid option.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma


A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.


https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #266)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:56 AM

270. There is nothing more immature than posting the same exact thing a dozen times in 1 thread

with the hopes of getting anyone to actually believe it, but post away to your heart's content.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #259)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:50 AM

269. Point taken and I agree.

I don't want OUR Party to act like Republicans. I don't want them to lie, bad mouth, cheat and trash the Constitution. I am at a loss trying to understand this thread.

As for 'taking action" that was never answered here as many times as it was asked to be clarified. IMHO they are doing their jobs and it is WE THE PEOPLE that need to be taking action to get that done. Here are a few of my ideas:

.Vote
.Georgia. We need the Senate or nothing gets done.
.Phone banking
.Contribute if you can
.Call your Reps
.Support our PE
.Support food banks
.Wear a mask
.Wash your hands
.Socially distance
.Vote. Vote. Vote

Fact is until we have a healthy nation, virus controlled and fed...we will go no where fast. The lines for food are heartbreaking.

We do this together or not at all. The Democrats are not the enemy.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #269)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:15 AM

275. Beautifully said, as usual

The question hasn't been answered because they have no answer. As I said, this is about grievance, not solutions.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #275)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:29 AM

278. Thank you.

And yes....no solutions and only grievances.

Georgia is the only thing on my mind right now. It is all I want for Christmas.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #244)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 11:23 AM

309. It's certainly working well for MAGA crowd - Maybe we need to get flags and trucks?

Their truck parades and strong language have gotten the election overturned.... Oh wait.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:06 PM

196. Thank you, wnylib

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:13 PM

217. Sorry, wnylib, with umpteen posts in the trhead I didnt see your post until just a while ago

First of all, I didn't do my post for the sake of "posting complaints on DU" so let's get that straight.

For starters, I think some of our people behind the scenes should have been organizing protests the instant Trump started his bullshit with overturning the election. The more we do nothing about it, the more he'll continue with his attempts to overthrow the election in his favor. Organizing protests and getting people in the streets is one way we could have been fighting back. If the shoe was on the other foot we'd be seeing caravans of fucking Trumpsters waving their flags and banging on the WH door.

If there are any legal procedural tools that we can use to stop Trump from his antics, we need to employ them.

We should also replace the completely ineffective "He is undermining democracy" meme with "He is a traitor and needs to be served justice for his to this country." Our words should be much tougher than they have been.

Our talking heads also should be doing much more to educate the public on just how treacherous the GOP is. Instead of only saying how McConnell keeps obstructing Democrats, we should be clearly labeling McConnell as one of the most evil people in the history of this country. Yes, they should say he is evil because he IS evil. He is a crook and an evil crook at that, so it needs to said. If our people need to get on air and write it on a blackboard so everyone sees it, then so be it. We are way too nice to that scumbag. Now I certainly don't mean for Joe Biden to be doing any of that, but it should be said by some of our people.

And about screaming bloody murder? Okay, maybe those words are too harsh for some people here to take, but the truth is that we DO need to yell it and yell it out loud just how horrific the GOP is. We absolutely NEED to let them know that two can play their game, that we can get down in the trenches and give it right back to them. If we don't, we will never get the respect we need to make them stop with thieir freaking nonsense. We've got to stop with this fantasy that the GOP will ever come to their senses on their own. We need to call them traitors to their face because that is what they are, PERIOD.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #217)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:16 PM

220. +1000

Calling things what they are (like a coup) is IMPORTANT. Identifying malevolent actors like McConnell for what they are is IMPORTANT. 'Comity' is NOT IMPORTANT when you have a treacherous entity like the GOP trying to establish one-party rule.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #217)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:44 PM

251. Your point about messaging is

a good one that I agree with. We can do better. I never advocate for euphemisms in such serious problems as Trump presents.

But, I disagree with your other points.

Regarding organization of protests to immediately counter Trump's coup attempts. It would play right into Trump's hands to create chaos, street violence, and sell his claims about a "violent left," or "antifa anarchy" and a "socialist coup." Trump would do this with counter protests by Proud Boys, QAnon nutters, neo Nazis, etc. It would give him an excuse to justify paramilitary "agents" in the streets and call a national emergency.

By pushing forward with his win and refusing to get sidetracked by Trump's BS, Biden provides a contrast that exposes Trump as weak, whiny, and a loser to all but his crazy cult members who are a minority. Biden, in effect, becomes the leader that people look to before he's even sworn in.

Regarding legal moves to stopTrump, we did it and it worked. His cases were thrown out of court and he and his lawyers became public laughing stocks.

Regarding Trump as traitor and the need for justice - All in good time, when our own people are in office. Unfortunately, our system has no means for his removal other than conviction after impeachment or Article 25. Corrupt R's will never allow it. But we can get him when he's out of the WH.

So we are pursuing a good course for the country and our own leadership. Trump is pushing for mob rule and an uprising. Staying calm and leading by example, as Biden and Harris are doing, undercuts the Trump attempts at mob chaos.

I have been in situations at work and in my personal life where de-escalation was essential to avoid violence. De-escalation is not capitulation. It is taking control by not getting sucked into the violence game moves. I see Biden and Harris doing the right moves to advance their agenda while preventing escalation.

I agree that Trump and his entire circle are traitors. I agree that they need to be held accountable. I agree that it is frustrating to see and hear the crap they try to pull. I believe that the way through this is to keep moving in the right direction and not get drawn into the sidetracking battle escalation that Trump is trying hard to create.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #251)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:54 PM

256. +1

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Response to wnylib (Reply #251)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:58 PM

257. Well said

All your points are well thought out. I can't argue with the emphasis you place on civility. That's a good thing. I don't agree, though, that peaceful protests by Democrats denouncing what Trump is doing would not help our cause. I think protests would be constructive in that it would help to get the word out from the good guys that we don't approve of any of the shenanigans Trump is pulling. It would also let them know that they don't own the streets, that the streets belong to everyone.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading all the solid points you made. You make a lot of sense. Thank you for your post.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #251)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:19 AM

260. +1 to all three of you!

Seriously, euphemisms and "polite" wording just mute the message that this man is a liar and a traitor.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #124)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:14 PM

218. Okay, I'll play

McConnell's buy-in should not have been sought before alerting the public about Russian interference to help Trump in 2015

There should have been a rules change in the House so that people who failed to show up when subpoenaed could be threatened with arrest for inherent contempt

It should not have taken as long as it did to bring impeachment charges against Trump, and the charges should have been broader

We should have fought like hell when Amy Coney Barrett was nominated, using every procedural maneuver to grind the process to a halt, instead of giving hugs to Lindsey Graham

There should not have been virtual silence from Dem Leadership when Trump refused to accept the election results

There should be more Democrats who are willing to call out the Republican Party for abetting an attempted coup, and to call it a coup, instead of laughing it off or pretending it isn't happening

We should refuse to seat the 126 Republicans in the House who signed onto sedition, instead of just releasing wordy statements about their "dishonor"

We should have sought at least $2K/month in payments for EVERYONE, even if that wouldn't pass in the Senate, to show who is on the side of the people, instead of a one-time $1200 payment subject to means testing

We should not be 'applauding' a measly $600 payment and $300/week in UI as a triumph of bipartisanship

In general, Democrats should have a unified message and should be out in front of cameras and on social media EVERY DAY making the case to the people instead of having closed-door meetings and tweeting out long statements that no one reads

They should start calling Republicans out for their sedition and treachery instead of expressing "concern" about their "colleagues across the aisle".

They should stop promoting the myth that we are the greatest democracy in the world and start making it clear that minority rule is unacceptable and that our electoral system must change

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Response to Maven (Reply #218)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:22 PM

222. Awesome post, Maven

All very well thought out quality points you made!

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #222)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:32 PM

226. Thank you!

And thank you for putting yourself out there and making the excellent points in your OP. We need a serious shift in approach in order for our country -- not just our party -- to survive. Throwing up our hands and saying "blame the Republicans, we're helpless!" is not acceptable anymore.

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Response to Maven (Reply #226)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:42 AM

297. Yep, our party...yes, OUR party

needs to do exactly that.

And we need to stop couching everything in soft language for the sake of "civility" that is literally only observed by one side.

They are lawless, they are working against our nation, they should be called out for that.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:03 PM

136. Thank YOU!

I have to admit, I am really getting tired of the passivity in the face of the ongoing and egregious republican tendency to arrogantly flaut the rules of congress and the laws of this country. I want to see a stronger and BROADER response from those in our party. Not just a few notable standouts.

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:13 PM

148. No problem

and thank YOU, too!

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Response to smirkymonkey (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:40 PM

191. Passivity?

Seriously?

Where have you been for the last year? You seem to have missed an awful lot.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #191)

Wed Dec 23, 2020, 01:15 AM

329. I was amused by this claim also

This claim is totally wrong and evidence a lack of understanding as to how Congress works in the real world

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #329)

Wed Dec 23, 2020, 01:46 AM

330. You can tell the people who aren't really interested in progress but just want to complain

or worse ...

They're the ones who behave like the dog who caught the car and doesn't have a clue what to do with it so he runs back to the sidewalk looking for another car to chase. ...

2018: They claimed the Democrats lacked a message and are in disarray and when they're proven wrong by a blue tsunami they act like it never happened.

2019: They demanded impeachment but when impeachment happened, they never said another word about it.

2020: They claimed the Democrats nominated the weakest, worst possible candidate and warned that the polls were wrong and Trump would walk to a second term ... and when Biden beat him like a drum in record numbers, they now insist that the Democrats are too "passive" and need to get tougher.

It's actually quite amusing watching them dragging the goalposts all around the field while the rest of us go right on about the business of moving the ball down the field.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #330)

Wed Dec 23, 2020, 01:49 AM

331. +10000000000000000

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:15 PM

149. Agreed. Asking our folks to fight harder is NOT blaming them but coaching them

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:51 PM

193. So what are you looking for? Have you ever been involved in legislation or negotiations....

....involving hundreds of billions of dollars and affecting the lives of tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of people? You think it's easy and just happens, and our Democrats in the House and Senate aren't trying their hardest to get the best deals and legislation?

C'mon.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 23, 2020, 01:14 AM

328. You are wrong in your analysis

Schumer and Pelosi are very effective leaders in the real world. Schumer is using senate rules to the best extent possible but without a majority there is a limit to what he can do in the real world

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Response to sweetloukillbot (Reply #1)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:56 PM

6. Yeah, a few more stern letters will work any day now. nt

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Response to Doremus (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:16 PM

39. The Dems being seen as weak allows people to think that both parties don't represent the people

There is a notion floating around that both parties don’t represent the people, that both are corrupt, etc... The Dems not being fierce effective fighters of the people just reinforces that and itself suppresses voter turnout.

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Response to DSandra (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:59 PM

132. The Democrat That Said Trump Should Be Arrested On Jan 20 As He Leaves The White House?

(crickets)

Thanks for the op.

I am tired of surrendering before the fight begins all too often.

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Response to DanieRains (Reply #132)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:30 PM

166. If anyone surrendered before a fight began in any other setting, it's be seen as betrayal

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Response to DSandra (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:04 PM

138. Weak Dem image suppresses voter turnout???

You mean like the 81 million who turned out for Biden?

Or are you referring to the millions already voting in Georgia to take back the Senate?

What message are your complaints about weakness sending out as the image of the Democratic party?

What are you contributing to our strength? This party is for ALL of us. We are not like R's who take orders from top down and rely on leaders to tell us what to do. We do things ourselves, on local and national levels, to bolsyer party unity and accomplishments.

We've got some damned good leaders, and I am proud of them and grateful for them.

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Response to DSandra (Reply #39)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:19 PM

154. Actions must be bold. Language must be bold. When bullies bluster and threaten, get in their face.

Bold actions often require some risk, but they show strength. Always make moves that directly benefit working class people, then lobby them for their help. Boycott, general strike, and slowdowns led by elected representatives and joined by their constituents. Use the first amendment for good for goodness sake. Creative direct action and civil disobedience are powerful tools when used against inequality and injustice. Our history proves this truth.

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Response to Doremus (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:07 PM

141. Like the stern letter about the coronavirus stimulus plan signed by Bernie Sanders and five other

senators? What's wrong with that?

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Response to betsuni (Reply #141)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:30 AM

295. +10000.

 

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:52 PM

2. I hate to say it, but you have a good point. They do need to be taking

this to the American people and get the Repugs on the back foot.

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:56 PM

7. Tend to agree somewhat.

Frustrates the hell out of me.

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Response to triron (Reply #7)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:32 PM

60. Yes, there's no reason why Democrats can't be strident in taking

the GOP and Trump enablers to task, especially as they have truth and facts on their side.

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Response to OnDoutside (Reply #60)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:50 AM

298. Maybe you missed these?

 




Maxine Waters: Trump should be in 'solitary confinement'


Pelosi calls Trump’s wall plan ‘an immorality’

“Whether you like the president, or dislike the president, is immaterial. It's all about the Constitution and his misconduct,” Schiff said Friday on the Senate floor. “What matters is whether he is a danger to the country, because he will do it again. And none of us can have confidence, based on his record, that he will not do it again because he is telling us every day that he will."


https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/479877-schiff-closes-dems-impeachment-arguments-with-emotional-appeal-to-remove

Democrats Excoriate Trump After Death Toll Revelations in Puerto Rico

John Lewis on Trump in emotional speech: ‘I know racism when I feel it’


“Testing, tracing, treatment and social distancing are the only tools we have to stop the spread of the coronavirus, but President Trump orders his Administration to slow down the testing that saves lives,” Pelosi said in a statement.



'Xenophobe. In. Chief.': Democrats blast Trump's plan to suspend immigration to U.S.

‘Zero-tolerance policy means zero humanity:’ Democrats decry Trump immigration policy after tour of detention center



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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:54 PM

3. I agree. We need better communicators. Porter puts the message in "kitchen table" terms

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Response to Raven123 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:56 PM

8. Exactly. Our people are great people & super intelligent but

they all could use a little of whatever it is that makes Katie tick.

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Response to Raven123 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:12 PM

31. Yes, MUCH better communicators needed.

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Response to elleng (Reply #31)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:15 PM

36. Why do you think communication is the problem?

Do you really think that the vast majority of Americans - including those who support Trump - have not already heard that message?

So, Democrats go on TV screaming and yelling about what a liar and traitor Trump is. How will that change any minds or alter behavior?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:30 PM

57. I have never said that 'screaming and yelling' would change any minds.

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Response to Raven123 (Reply #3)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:58 PM

131. So does AOC. And Swalwell. And Brian Schatz. And many others.

If only they were allowed to take the leadership positions they deserve.

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Response to Maven (Reply #131)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:21 PM

158. They're our hope for the future.

I think they'll take a tougher approach when their turn to lead comes, and I think that time is soon. Like, next election cycle soon. Our Democratic leaders today came up in a little more genteel time, when negotiation was possible. McConnell blew that up when he took control of the Senate, so the young guns in our party have cut their teeth on this shit. Their first words were probably, "Why don't the dems DO something?"

I would have loved to have seen someone from the next generation on the top of the ticket, but we needed a strong, experienced, moral person to lead us forward and to retain our standing in the world. We got that in Joe. And Kamala will be ready to take the reins in 2024, because I think Joe will be ready to pass that torch. We've also got Pete in the wings, along with the folks you mentioned. and talent we haven't even discovered yet.

With any other Republican in office, I would have fully supported one of the next generation...this just wasn't the year.

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Response to Maven (Reply #131)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:20 AM

261. Committee Assignments

AOC: 2018

Committee assignments
Committee on Financial Services[169]
Subcommittee on Investor Protection, Entrepreneurship and Capital Markets
Subcommittee on Consumer Protection and Financial Institutions
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform[170]
Subcommittee on Civil Rights and Civil Liberties
Subcommittee on Environment

Swawell:2012

Committee assignments
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Subcommittee on Intelligence Modernization and Readiness (Chair)
Subcommittee on Strategic Technologies and Advanced Research
Committee on the Judiciary
Subcommittee on Courts, the Internet, and Intellectual Property
Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law

Caucus memberships
American Sikh Congressional Caucus
Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus[55]
Congressional LGBT Equality Caucus

Schatz:2012

Committee assignments (116th Congress)
Committee on Appropriations
Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies
Subcommittee on Defense
Subcommittee on Labor, Health and Human Services, and Education, and Related Agencies
Subcommittee on Military Construction and Veterans Affairs, and Related Agencies (Ranking Member)
Subcommittee on Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies
Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs
Subcommittee on Financial Institutions and Consumer Protection
Subcommittee on National Security and International Trade and Finance
Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation
Subcommittee on Aviation Operations, Safety, and Security
Subcommittee on Communications, Technology, Innovation, and the Internet (Ranking Member)
Subcommittee on Manufacturing, Trade, and Consumer Protection
Subcommittee on Science, Oceans, Fisheries, and Weather
Subcommittee on Security
Committee on Indian Affairs
Joint Select Committee on Budget and Appropriations Process Reform
Select Committee on Ethics
Leadership positions
Chief Deputy Whip[41][42]
Co-chair, Senate Climate Change Task Force[43]
Chair, Senate Democratic Special Committee on the Climate Crisis[44]
Member, Board of Trustees for the Harry S. Truman Scholarship foundation
Caucus memberships
Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus[45]
Congressional NextGen 9-1-1 Caucus[46]

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #261)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 04:00 AM

281. Apart from all that, what have the Romans ever done for us? nt

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #281)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 04:02 AM

282. ...

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Response to fleabiscuit (Reply #281)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 05:07 PM

320. ...

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #320)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:16 PM

325. ...

Love you back!

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:56 PM

5. Screaming bloody murder is still just talking.

What are you suggesting we do besides that?

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Response to Walleye (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:59 PM

12. Well, for starters, since you asked

Instead of sitting back and twirling their thumbs as Trump delivers blow after blow to this country, our people should be going on the air and calling Trump exactly what he is: a traitor to this country who deserves to be in prison, in those exact words. They should be calling him a Benedict Arnold or worse. Stop mincing words for chrise sake.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:03 PM

14. No I agree. But, it's still just talking and no one is listening.

It needs to be some serious national security and law enforcement. We can’t just welcome these traitors back into the fold. Hefty fines possibly jail time. Crimes are being committed

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:07 PM

19. I'm sure that Mitch McConnell will vote to impeach him if we yell louder

I'm sure yelling louder will convince the 74 million idiots with flags on their trucks that they're wrong.

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Response to sweetloukillbot (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 10:56 AM

304. Yes, Mitch and the Trump humpers TOTALLY respond to yelling on the part of Democratic leaders.

 

Their memes concerning AOC, Nancy Pelosi and Maxine Waters clearly show that they have been made aware of the error of their ways, and aren't energized and foaming at the mouth whatsoever.



But seriously, as I recall, Pelosi was considered by many on DU's far left to be a liability for Speaker in 2017 because she was such as "lightning rod" for the GOP and the deplorables, and whenever she spoke up, they mocked and vilified her.


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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:07 PM

20. And what will the result of that be?

Trump will apologize, shut up and change his tactics? McConnell will get scared and straighten up. All those Trump voters will suddenly the light and turn on him?

And then what?

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #12)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:09 PM

23. Who are you even talking about?

"Instead of sitting back and twirling their thumbs"

The only ones I see doing that are the same ones that ratfked the country back in 2016...

Plenty of thumb twirlers out there shouting demands at a glass screen.
Jus sayin.



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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:53 AM

299. Sitting on their thumbs? Like this?

 

Last edited Tue Dec 22, 2020, 10:49 AM - Edit history (3)

I guess one sees what one wants and disregards that which they don't. But here you go:

‘It’s Treason.’ House Democrats Seize On ‘Transcript’ of Trump’s Ukraine Call

Maxine Waters calls Trump ‘ the Most Deplorable Human Being that I've Ever Encountered'.’

Democrats propose sweeping bill to curb presidential abuses


When asked why Trump is so averse to listening to experts, Pelosi suggested he was “in denial,” and added, “If you’re not evidence-based, if you’re not science-based, you have the luxury of just saying whatever you feel like. And that luxury is one our country can no longer afford because it is, again, dangerous. I can’t psych out the president and why he does certain things, but I just do wonder how others can stand with him while he says the things he does, in a way they’re accepting as truth.”





Maxine Waters: Trump should be in 'solitary confinement'

Dems decry Trump’s statements on housing as racist

Pelosi calls Trump’s wall plan ‘an immorality’

Schiff closes Dems' impeachment arguments with emotional appeal to remove Trump

A sham,” said Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-Minn. “Power grab,” protested Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn. “Not normal," said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill.

“You don't convene a Supreme Court confirmation hearing, in the middle of a pandemic, when the Senate's on recess, when voting has already started in the presidential election in a majority of states,” declared Sen. Chris Coons, D-Del.


Democrats Excoriate Trump After Death Toll Revelations in Puerto Rico




John Lewis on Trump in emotional speech: ‘I know racism when I feel it’


“Testing, tracing, treatment and social distancing are the only tools we have to stop the spread of the coronavirus, but President Trump orders his Administration to slow down the testing that saves lives,” Pelosi said in a statement.


“Dismissing politically appointed national security leaders during a transition is a destabilizing move that will only embolden our adversaries and put our country at greater risk,” Smith said in a statement. "President Trump’s decision to fire Secretary Esper out of spite is not just childish, it’s also reckless.

It has long been clear that President Trump cares about loyalty above all else, often at the expense of competence, and during a period of presidential transition competence in government is of the utmost importance.


Two leading U.S. Democrats on Sunday condemned President Donald Trump’s clemency for his long-time friend Roger Stone, wiping out his 40-month prison sentence for political wrongdoing, saying it was a perversion of American legal standards.

It's staggering corruption,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said of Trump’s commutation of Stone’s sentence during an interview on CNN.

“People should know this isn't just about lying to Congress, that means lying to the American people, and witness tampering and the rest,” Pelosi said of the seven convictions a jury handed down against Stone. “It's about our national security.”



'Xenophobe. In. Chief.': Democrats blast Trump's plan to suspend immigration to U.S.

‘Zero-tolerance policy means zero humanity:’ Democrats decry Trump immigration policy after tour of detention center

Democrats blast Trump after report reveals he avoided income taxes for 10 years: 'Disgusting'

“We are just now starting to see a flattening of the curve of the area,” Schweyer said. "Now is not the time to be pulling our first responders off the street, to follow and tail the President’s motorcade around this area, just simply so he gets a photo op that he thinks is going to help him, I don’t know, either with his ego or re-election. Regardless, this is just an absolute shame, it’s a waste of resources, and he’s putting more people in danger.


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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 10:50 AM

303. 'It's Treason.' House Democrats Seize On 'Transcript' of Trump's Ukraine Call

 

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Response to Walleye (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:01 PM

13. Yell it louder, slower and sound really really mad when we do it

Yeah, that will do the trick...

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #13)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:08 PM

22. Do you honestly think the "Trump is undermining democracy" meme hasn't gotten us anywhere?

It hasn't come close to stopping them from enabling Trump to continue with his ways.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #22)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:10 PM

24. How exactly do you think Democrats going on tv and screaming bloody murder is going to change their

behavior?

Please be specific.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #24)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:14 PM

34. If you don't know what screaming bloody murder is, then that explains

why you didn't answer my question. Screaming bloody murder is specific enough that it doesn't need any further explaining.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #34)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:24 PM

47. Nice dodge. But since you seem to be an expert on screaming bloody murder

why can't you explain how doing so will achieve the results you want (or even articulate what those results are)?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #47)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:30 PM

56. Nice try

at attempting to make my entire post about screaming bloody murder, when that was only a small part of it, but continue all you want. It's a free world.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #56)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 04:04 AM

283. And an effective try. nt

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:23 AM

293. +1000. When one can't articulate what is demanding, then the likelihood of getting that demand

 

met is nil.

And certainly doesn't get one much support from others who want change.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:57 PM

9. This is a valid and constructive critique of the party's strategy that in no way violates DU rules.

 


However, I offer no comment on whether I agree with it.

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Response to Towlie (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:11 PM

27. Appreciate this.

This is how we make it better.

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Response to Towlie (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:16 PM

38. Thank you.

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Response to Towlie (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:22 PM

93. Agree!

Many of us feel our message isn't strong enough. After all, Democrats really are the only ones who have made America better for average working Americans. In fact so many of them have done so well they've become republicans. Time for Democrats to take charge of the narrative.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #10)


Response to Post removed (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:25 PM

50. Maybe not.

 


It'll depend upon the random selection of "jurists".

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089530/quotes/qt1402616

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Response to Post removed (Reply #109)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:45 PM

116. Yeah. Who cares about the Senate

That's not important. Just like retaining/gaining SCOTUS seats weren't in 2016.

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Response to kcr (Reply #116)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:15 PM

151. Thanks for making my point

Leadership convinced Obama to shut up about Russian interference. In fear of Mitch having a snit. How'd that work out?

Obama turned right after elected, appointing people like Rahm Emanuel who hated "fucking retarded" liberals in his own party to set his direction. How'd that work out in 2010 midterms?

You may disagree, but I think Americans respect more a fighter, than an appeaser. Even if they don't agree completely with the fighter. And that voters are more suspicious of those who look to be avoiding confrontation. People respect those who seem passionate about their beliefs more than those that are always the target of that passion, and when the lie-abused party finally have the chance, and to then simply say they hope they will get along better with their abuser in the future, and lets all just shhhhh about holding anyone accountable, just will not work anymore. That if they just keep turning the other cheek, in some magical future Rs and Ds will hold hands and dance in the meadow together.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #151)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:38 PM

169. Oh, right. 2010? How did that turnout?

I remember 2010. Speaking of proving points. I remember an instant and relentless attack on Obama the second he stepped his pinky toe into office. The explanation was this was necessary pressure to move him to the left. And look where it got us. This idea that constantly painting Dems as weak is the way to move Dems to the left and turn out voters mystifies me. But yeah. Let's repeat that mistake.

You know what? I can't fucking stand Rham Emanuel. I just don't agree with the style of politics that actually help keep assholes like him in power. Do you know why we can't have nice things? In large part because of a segment of the left that thinks the only way to get anywhere is to do anything but actually attack the enemy. Biden was not my choice. Not even close. But I predicted way back in the beginning that if a certain candidate ran again, that's exactly who we'd get. And look where we are. And when he takes office it will be the 2008/10 cycle all over again. Because no one learns a fucking thing.

A whole thread about how weak Dems are for not being tough enough on Republicans. With not one bad word about Republicans in it. Classic.

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Response to kcr (Reply #169)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:22 PM

201. Amen

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Response to kcr (Reply #169)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:45 PM

208. Correct.

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Response to kcr (Reply #169)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:20 AM

277. Well, J try and stay on topic. There are plenty of other Republican bashing threads.

"A whole thread about how weak Dems are for not being tough enough on Republicans. With not one bad word about Republicans in it. Classic."

Why would it be necessary for my post to somehow be complete, if only I'd added a few cuss words at Republicans? The topic of the OP is elected Democrats, from top to bottom, left and right, being hard enough, publicly critical enough, on their peers on the other side.

Just to refresh both our memories of 2010, here's how the Guardian saw it,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/03/us-midterm-election-results-tea-party

Barack Obama was today facing a harsh new US political reality in the wake of one of the worst Democratic defeats for 70 years.

In midterm election races across America, Republicans pummelled their opponents, capturing the House of Representatives and a fistful of Senate seats.

With some seats still to be counted, the Republicans picked up at least 60 House seats, eclipsing their 54 gains in 1994 and the party's best result since 1938. They also gained at least six Senate seats, falling short of the 10 they needed to gain control of the upper house.

It was a remarkable comeback from two years ago, when many experts expected the party to endure a long time in the political wilderness in the wake of Obama's emphatic 2008 presidential election victory.



And one of the main reasons was the letdown on the enthusiasm by the left wing of the party, and by younger voters, new voters, who thought they heard a more progressive direction from Obama during the primaries. whether you are pissed at those folks or not. Whether you think they expected too much from Obama, makes no difference. It happened.

It wasn't any leftward swing by Obama that caused the 2010 voter meltdown, he went right. Let Wall Street mostly off the hook, and later went on to extend the Bush tax cuts.
It was that he didn't stick hard enough in the left lane, at least that was the perception, to keep the same level of inspiration for real change in the more activist base who had worked like hell to help get him elected. And the same will happen with a Biden administration if he follows Obama's lead and tries appeasement towards an unrelenting enemy that is growing more violent, and radical by the day.

You know why we can 't have nice things? Because we don't fight as one voice for them. Establishment Democrats alliow their left flank to speak up, and nave their say in small bursts. But that's as far as it usually goes. As far as appointing them to key positions. Directing policy and backing them. I believe that a big majority of Americans are liberal at heart. But we concentrate on hiding as much of that as we can. Which instead we should promote, like a new New Deal.,

Stop being afraid to promote policies that a majority of Americans support like M4A. No you don't have to go there 100% now. That would be impossible anyways. But say that you as a party, speak as one voice that M4A, some such variation, will be coming to Americans one day, because Democrats are working hard every day to get there. Where Americans pay half as much for universal coverage no matter their situation or place of residence. Who cares if someone on Fox News might shout out the word "socialist" Its just not sustainable to always play like a sports team that plays not to lose, instead of win.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #277)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:34 AM

279. Democrats had a 60 vote filibuster-proof majority in the senate for all of four months and ten days

during Obama's first two years. And the left wing of the party was letdown because he couldn't get a lot done in four months and ten days? Why? Don't they know how Congress works?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #277)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 10:05 AM

301. About the topic of public support for M4A, since you brought it into the discussion...

 

You are mistaken that a "majority" supports it, because the majority supports restoring and incremental expansion of the ACA. In fact, a substantial number of those who support M4A don't understand that it will affect one's access to private health insurance, nor the impact it would have on taxes and other personal health care costs. The majority of Democrats voted for Biden in the primary, and Biden ran on restoring the ACA. You're welcome.

As Medicare-for-all becomes a staple in national conversations around health care and people become aware of the details of any plan or hear arguments on either side, it is unclear how attitudes towards such a proposal may shift. KFF polling finds public support for Medicare-for-all shifts significantly when people hear arguments about potential tax increases or delays in medical tests and treatment (Figure 9). KFF polling found that when such a plan is described in terms of the trade-offs (higher taxes but lower out-of-pocket costs), the public is almost equally split in their support (Figure 10). KFF polling also shows many people falsely assume they would be able to keep their current health insurance under a single-payer plan, suggesting another potential area for decreased support especially since most supporters (67 percent) of such a proposal think they would be able to keep their current health insurance coverage (Figure 11).

KFF polling finds more Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents would prefer voting for a candidate who wants to build on the ACA in order to expand coverage and reduce costs rather than replace the ACA with a national Medicare-for-all plan (Figure 12). Additionally, KFF polling has found broader public support for more incremental changes to expand the public health insurance program in this country including proposals that expand the role of public programs like Medicare and Medicaid (Figure 13). And while partisans are divided on a Medicare-for-all national health plan, there is robust support among Democrats, and even support among four in ten Republicans, for a government-run health plan, sometimes called a public option (Figure 14). Notably, the public does not perceive major differences in how a public option or a Medicare-for-all plan would impact taxes and personal health care costs. However, there are some differences in perceptions of how the proposals would impact those with private health insurance coverage (Figure 15). KFF polling in October 2020 finds about half of Americans support both a Medicare-for-all plan and a public option (Figure 16). So while the general idea of a national health plan (whether accomplished through an expansion of Medicare or some other way) may enjoy fairly broad support in the abstract, it remains unclear how this issue will play out in the 2020 election and beyond.

https://www.kff.org/slideshow/public-opinion-on-single-payer-national-health-plans-and-expanding-access-to-medicare-coverage/

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Response to ehrnst (Reply #301)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:11 PM

311. What many advocates of the as-yet incomplete "M4A" (there still are huge funding gaps!) do is...

....look at that early in the year poll that said around 70% of Americans are in favor of "Universal Health Care". So, they lumped Amy Klobuchar's proposal, Pete Buttigieg's proposal, Kamala Harris' proposal, Joe Biden's proposal, etc. all into one number that comprised that "70%". Then they renamed all of those proposals together and called it "Medicare for All".

The fact is less than 30% of Americans want that pure "Medicare for All", probably much less! Sanders' keystone proposal was "M4A", and he got less than 27% of the votes, even after the field was narrowed down to only two.

As far as Medicare is concerned, yesterday we got our notice of what the 2021 monthly premium would be: $148 per month deducted from our Social Security payment.

I did a quick calculation - $148 X 12 X 61 million (number of people on Medicare) and that equals $108 BILLION. The "M4A" proposal calls for $0 premiums, expanded to 200 - 300 million people. So where is that hundreds of billions of dollars going to come from?

All we hear is "we're going to tax the rich", "we're going to tax corporations", etc. What constitutes "rich", and by how much, and how much revenue would that generate? All we hear is vague claims, or more slogans. Never anything specific.

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Response to George II (Reply #311)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:14 PM

312. Yes, specificity seems to be in short supply in some quarters.

 

Being very angry about the way things are is one thing.

Doubling down that there's an easy solution that someone just isn't doing RIGHT NOW to fix it is another.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #277)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 11:19 AM

307. Well, LLL, Staying on topic...and using your sports analogy:

 

"Speaking as one voice" doesn't = lockstep to a single manifesto, a single piece of legislation from a specific politician, with any dissent being harrangued as "corporatist" or "a shill for big pharma." I find that many who say "we need UNITY" are unhappy that their particular preferences aren't being issued from the top down, and have someone else in mind who will issue marching orders until everyone else "gets in line."

The Democratic Party is a big tent, despite the statements of some who are frustrated by that, that we should be "a smaller tent" to ensure lockstep. Our very foundation involves a loose coalition of groups, and this can get messy - but that's the nature of democracy and indeed politics. That is what makes the Democratic party - flawed as any organization of human beings is - the most successful party for social justics and progressive ideals. Authoritarian, "my way or the highway" doesn't really fit, even if it makes for a very dynamic protest or campaign.

Democratic leadership is speaking with one voice for universal health care, and nearly all nations that acheive that don't use M4A or single payer, but a hybrid of public / private mechanisms.

It's just not sustainable for one of the players on the team to say, "If you don't use my play, I'm going to take the ball and show you just how much I can hurt the team's chances of winning anything until you defer to me."

I think people need to stop being afraid of actual teamwork and getting to an actual, real, exitsing solution that might not promote a particular political brand, but gets healthcare and social justice to more people NOW.

Making "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE SOLUTION" the enemy of winning the game is a sure way for the team to lose.



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Response to ehrnst (Reply #307)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:20 PM

314. +1000!

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #277)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:17 PM

313. A majority of Americans do NOT support "M4A". Not even close to a majority.

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Response to kcr (Reply #169)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:59 AM

300. Those attacks began even before Obama was sworn in. He was being bashed for some of his...

....appointments, bashed for some people he DIDN'T appoint, and within hours of taking office people started criticizing him because he hadn't accomplished all his campaign promises.

It was relentless, both in the media and right here. It got so bad that I had to step away from this Forum for almost two years, it was so intolerable.

"He didn't do this", "he didn't do that", "he smiled at a republican". They trashed him for "drinking beer with Louis Gates and Sgt. James Crowley" etc. A steady stream of venom directed toward Obama and his administration, from EVERY direction - 99% of which was unwarranted.

How many here would welcome times like Obama's first year or two in the White House?

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Response to George II (Reply #300)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 11:02 AM

305. +1

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Response to kcr (Reply #169)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 11:20 AM

308. +1000.

 

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #151)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 03:49 PM

315. Oh yeah? What "Point" was that?

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Response to Post removed (Reply #15)


Response to Post removed (Reply #212)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:18 PM

221. Thank you for letting me know

Much appreciated.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:25 PM

97. This is hardly the first discussion like this

it's been discussed hundreds of times.

Democrats blame Democrats. Republicans blame Democrats. That's why we lose.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:40 PM

111. I don't feel like a piece of software.I feel like a DU member who said I'd be willing to be on Jury

At any given time, when a DU member alerts on a questionable post, 7 volunteers from the pool are asked if they’d be willing to serve at that moment. Yes or No. If the volunteer says no, not now, then a different person is asked. But the Jury remains 7 people. If an alerted post is removed, that’s the opinion of 7 people who are members here. If you want to dispute it, write a note in Ask the Administrators.

Incidentally, the TOS are clear: the word is “bashing,” not “criticism.” There’s a difference.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #111)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:03 PM

135. I've had posts hidden for questioning the importance of dry powder

"Bashing" and "criticism" are in the eye of the beholder, alas.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:00 PM

179. But constructive criticism IS allowed. But that not welcome often.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 02:58 PM

11. Perhaps blaming Democrats causes more damage

Than you imagine. Everyone has an opinion but what should democrats have done... allow starvation and homelessness. The GOP cares noting about Americans... just once I would like see posts blaming Republicans for what they do. If you listened last night and this
morning, there was plenty off pushback from our side.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:10 PM

26. Groupthink is not good as well, it doesn't allow for justified critiques and is ultimately harmful

I think Dems messed up in 2016 thinking that it was in the bag for Hillary, dissenting voices were ignored and Trump won...

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Response to DSandra (Reply #26)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:23 PM

95. Once more, with feeling: Hillary lost the Electoral College in a game of peeling off fringes...

It took the interference of an enemy nation, sabotage from within, and the deliberate use of Third Party candidates to peel off just enough Democratic votes in swing states to ensure that the woman who won by a 3 million vote margin lost the EC and therefore the presidency.

Groupthink? Uh, no.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:23 PM

159. +1

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Response to Hekate (Reply #95)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:59 PM

176. There was still significant room for improvement in Hillary's Campaign

That, given the narrow margins, still could have gone the other way. One well known one was her not visiting Wisconsin.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/hillary-clinton-trump-mistake-fans-book-tour-what-happened-a7943846.html%3famp

Asking Hillary voters what they think was her biggest mistake, one woman said:

“ “She took too much for granted; I think that was her big mistake. You have to go to every state and speak to the people. I looked at a programme on CNN with Van Jones Called “The Messy Truth,” and he interviewed people in Kentucky to find out why they voted for Trump. And they said: ‘Look, I voted for Obama the last two elections. Even if he couldn't get here, he sent his people here. And she just blew us off.’ A lot of people may have felt that way.” “

I bet groupthink allowed that to happen, especially when people believe that the top people in the group are infallible.

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Response to DSandra (Reply #176)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 10:32 PM

241. The fact is, Clinton lost.......in 2016. Now in 2020 Biden won. But people are still complaining....

....that Clinton lost and ignoring the fact that Biden won.

Acting as though we didn't learn anything from 2016 and ignoring that Biden won in 2020.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:05 PM

16. Republicans don't attack their right flank. We attack our left nonstop

Republicans utilize and motivate their right flank. Those people vote. When the Tea Party rose, there was some grousing from the higher up Establishment Republicans, but they got over it and quickly. They co-opted them.

Compare that to our party. Someone like AOC cannot open her mouth before the moderate and conservative portions of the party go after her. Our Left is where our energy is. You can't hate the Left as much as you hate Republicans and still have a party that is successful at unified and effective political messaging.

AOC is incredibly popular with voters 40 and under. She understands the issues facing my generation and the Zoomers. She knows the future we're facing. If she acts and speaks with urgency, it is because these issues are urgent.

Instead of unleashing that power unapologetically, the center piles on as soon as there's a murmur.

We cannot have a functioning Big Tent when the Right door is being left wide open while the Left one is being feverishly sewn shut. We've had nearly 40 years of this. It hasn't worked. Look at the state we're in. Yes, Republicans pushed for this disrepair, but we elect and trust Democrats to defeat it. If they cannot defeat it, at least keep it in check. That just hasn't happened. Inequality, health care, the environment. You name it. Republicans have had their way with us.

If people can honestly look at the country we live in and figure our approach to messaging should remain just as it is, I don't know what to say to them. Definition of insanity and all that.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:10 PM

25. +10,000

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:17 PM

40. Wrong, Symph. The GOP did not attack their wingnuts & were themselves absorbed by wingnuts...

How the hell do you think we got here? The GOP of my youth is gone. Eisenhower would not recognize its rotting corpse. There are no conservative intellectuals the rest of us can thoughtfully refute, there are Proud Boys ranting.

Nixon’s Southern Strategy was to embrace the racist Dixiecrats like long-lost brothers.

Instead of kicking Newt Gingrich out they embraced him. Instead of telling the Tea Partiers to pipe down, the said “Wow, we can use this energy to destroy John Kerry and smear him as a coward instead of the war hero he really is.”

At every step of the way the GOP embraced the Far Right, and now look where they are. Look where the country is.

Beware extremists.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #40)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:10 PM

80. correct

we have moderate Republicans leaving the party and even becoming Democrats. We do not have moderate Democrats leaving the party and even becoming Republicans.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:18 PM

41. Many of us object to AOC going after Democrats instead of Republicans

It's not a one-way street. She attacks Democrats on a regular basis, threatens to primary elected Dems from the left instead of working to get Republicans defeated.

Where is it written that she is not to be subjected to constructive criticism?

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Response to mcar (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:18 PM

91. Did you object when Pelosi endorsed Joe Kennedy over incumbent Markey?

The same ones I see attacking AOC for endorsing primary challenges were strangely silent when Pelosi endorsed a challenger to a sitting Democratic incumbent.

And since you are in favor of constructive criticism of AOC, then surely you must be in favor of the same for other Democrats you favor and you have never alerted on same. Right?

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Response to Bradshaw3 (Reply #91)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:50 PM

210. Does Pelosi regularly slam Democrats

and rarely slam Republicans?

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Response to mcar (Reply #210)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 04:14 AM

284. +1

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Response to mcar (Reply #210)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 04:54 AM

285. +1

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Response to mcar (Reply #210)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:20 AM

292. +1000.

 

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Response to mcar (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:21 PM

92. That's funny because when she goes after, say, Marco Rubio

there are complaints as well.

So, no, she gets attacked no matter what she does.

There are Democrats here on DU dislike her far more than they do Moscow Mitch or Trump.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #92)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:48 PM

117. I didn't complain about that

He's my useless senator. Credit where it's due.

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Response to mcar (Reply #41)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:42 PM

229. Huh? She goes after Republicans and their policies CONSTANTLY

If you follow her on Twitter, you know this. The vast majority of her posts are about supporting Democratic initiatives and attacking Repubs. She does not "attack Democrats on a regular basis". That is a total misrepresentation of reality.

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Response to Maven (Reply #229)

Wed Dec 23, 2020, 12:45 AM

327. True. I keep an eye on her. She's slammin' Republicans, Rubio the 2024 contender especially.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:20 PM

43. The left is Nancy Pelosi

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Response to JI7 (Reply #43)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:51 PM

211. Yep.

Amazing how some act like she's on the right politically.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #43)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 10:18 PM

326. AOC on Pelosi: "her personal politics are very progressive."

"One thing that is notable about the speaker is that she does believe that the Democratic Party should be a progressive party She is in the difficult position of having to juggle all these different wings within the party, but her personal politics are very progressive."

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:33 PM

61. No one hates them left. So stop.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:43 PM

114. HA.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:45 PM

69. This right here

 

That's it.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:09 PM

78. No our left flank attacks us

the right does not attack the Republican party.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:27 PM

100. And yet no one has anything bad to say about her until she bashes Democrats and the party.

Not sure how folks get this so backwards, so often.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:42 PM

112. Um, when she went after Marco Rubio

people were attacking her. So, there's that.

She can walk down a street and there is a contingent who will declare that she's stealing the sidewalk from someone more deserving of that spot.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:44 PM

115. +1

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Response to Bettie (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:02 PM

134. Who on our side attacked her for going after a Republican?

No, I don't think there's that. She's great when she goes after the GOP. She needs to do that more often. But somehow she's not what posts like the OP are usually talking about.

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Response to kcr (Reply #134)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:11 PM

145. Here is the thread, I'm not going to "call out"

anyone by linking to a particular post, but it is there.

It is in literally every post that references AOC. There is visceral, out-in-the open hatred of this young woman.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #145)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:13 PM

147. You didn't post a link

I do see lots of posts about AOC, and a lot of it is ridiculous. Like the ones blasting her for getting the vaccine, for example. But I haven't seen anyone attack her for going after any Republican.

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Response to kcr (Reply #147)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:15 PM

150. Ooops. I didn't hit the paste key

sorry...but this will likely be removed because someone will see it as a "call out".

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214726482

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Response to Bettie (Reply #150)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:28 PM

163. All I see is one who objected to swear words

Which, I agree. Stupid. But it isn't evidence that the OP is right. Simply saying that Dems are spineless wimps doesn't make it so. People tend to remember the stuff that fit their narratives. That one idiot on the internet sticks out in their minds, and becomes a tick in the box to prove they're right. It doesn't matter that everyone else in that thread loved what AOC said. Not to mention how many times I see a thread about Katie Porter on DU. But I guess that's all invisible to some people. Or it isn't enough.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #112)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:30 PM

165. She may get more criticism than she deserves. She also gets more praise and credit than she's earned

To there are several freshman Members who are just as effective, hard-working and popular with their constituents that don't get a fraction of the attention and accolades she does (Lauren Underwood and Sharice Davids are two who come to mind). Sometimes, folks treat AOC as if she's the only dynamic new Member and pretty much ignore the other Members of the freshman class. So while she may get more unfair heat than she deserves, she also gets more unwarranted flattering sunlight.

It probably balances out about even.

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Response to MrsCoffee (Reply #100)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:00 PM

178. There was just a whole ass thread where people were..

 

..bitching about how she tweeted about getting the COVID vaccine.

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Response to Sympthsical (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:54 PM

126. I agree 100% and excellent comment.

 

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:05 PM

17. The only thing that works is get the most votes/representatives. Screaming bloody murder...

unfortunately doesn't do shit. McTurtle still controls everything. If we win the Senate, we control everything since we now have the White House and House.

Got it now? That's all it boils down to. Everything else is just talk and complaining about how Democrats are nothing but talk.

Irony in spades.

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Response to brush (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:13 PM

33. But talk and fighting back effectively motivates the base

And gets votes. People want to see a representative ACTUALLY BE a representative that is willing to fight for them.

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Response to DSandra (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:21 PM

45. The base of the democratic party is the opposite of the base of the Republican Party

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Response to JI7 (Reply #45)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:07 PM

182. I'm as Democrat in demographic profile as one can get, and I want Democrats to fight harder

Being In the LGBT community, I rely on the Democrats to protect my rights. As a hispanic / asian, I rely on Democrats to win so that racism doesn’t become mainstream and acceptable again. Hispanics and black people have been under assault by the coronavirus and because Republicans want to kill us. I also live in California and we have been getting the short end of the stick by Trump as well.

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Response to DSandra (Reply #33)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:58 PM

215. Citation needed...

...there is no evidence that dems “fighting back” motivates anyone to vote. If that were the case wouldn’t turnout in AOC’s district be one of the highest in the country instead of one the lowest since many here are pointing to her sternly worded tweets as some kind of magic bullet. If she doesn’t motivate the people who know her best, I think I’ll pass on her often divisive messaging being a model..

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Response to Callado119 (Reply #215)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:29 PM

225. Good point!

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Response to brush (Reply #17)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:26 PM

98. +1 million zillion

they never seem to get it. We have to win. Most on the top think winning would not happen with whatever OP strategy is (it is not specific enough).

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:07 PM

18. +1 million

The word 'LIAR' should be screamed from the moutaintops, and followers and enablers of the 'LIAR-IN-CHIEF' should be punished harshly for their support of the worst political rimjob of the past 200 years.

What is it are our politicians so afraid of? Their jobs? There should be no job security in politics. Don't do what needs to be done. Bye-bye.

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Response to superpatriotman (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:11 PM

29. "LIAR LIAR LIAR!!!"

Then what happens?

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:15 PM

35. Your sarcasm is noted

-----End transmission-----

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Response to superpatriotman (Reply #35)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:16 PM

37. It was a reasonable question

Then what happens?

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Response to mcar (Reply #37)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:25 PM

49. You give hope and courage and support

to millions of voters that someone - anyone - with a half a brain is in charge, and is fully aware of - and has the solutions to - the absurdities and obscenities from the right.

Calling a fascist a fascist is the first step in defeating fascism.


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Response to superpatriotman (Reply #49)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:34 PM

63. Democrats going on tv and calling people liars tells millions of people

that someone is in charge and has solutions?

Um, no. You know what gives people hope that someone is in charge and has solutions? Seeing intelligent, responsible rational grownups like President-elect Biden, VP-elect Harris, and Speaker Pelosi, calmly laying out their policies, explaining how they're going to achieve them, and asking for the help of all Americans to help them do it. Thank God they're not on the airwaves hollering and carrying on and replicating the worst behavior of the people we are trying to shut down.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:08 PM

21. Dems bad! Dems bad! Dems bad!

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Response to mcar (Reply #21)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:33 PM

167. Who posted that and where is it? Let me know so I can alert.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:11 PM

28. Joe Manchin knows how to fight. He won many times in a very red state.

All while voting with Democrats most of the time including to remove Trump.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)


Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:12 PM

32. Thing is, this critique is being shared among "family, here.

Different public facing face to the rest of body politic...

My 2 cents.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:18 PM

42. Katie Porter is Katie Porter

she has her own talent and style . Not everyone is the same. And the reason she it's effective is becsuse she understands the issues and knows her shit.

Do you think any of the Republicans can do anything near what she does ? Yet they still win because it's about voting .

Jon Ossoff kicked Perdues ass so hard that he refused to debate him so why didn't it give him a huge win on election night ?

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:21 PM

44. This kind of demand is really about satisfying the desire for red meat among the already converted

It's understandable. We want our public officials to reflect back at us our anger and frustration. But screaming and yelling and calling people names, while perhaps satisfying to us, will do absolutely nothing to advance the ball where we wanted to go.

Ranting, raving and name-calling is easy And often very satisfying. But actually changing minds and effectuating change is hard and it rarely occurs as a result of public temper tantrums.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:24 PM

48. Are we so helpless that we can't go after THEM? What about what they're doing to Hunter Biden?

All we're hearing now is how special DOJ investigators will be going after Hunter. Well why the hell aren't we hearing about our people going after every traitorous GOP rat fuck out there? Or at least threaten to go after them with our own investigations? We're just going to let them attack Hunter and that's it? All we're going to do is sit back, complain, and let the GOP scumbags beat the shit ouf of us all the time?

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:29 PM

53. Yelling at people isn't "going after them." It's just yelling

You have yet in this thread to offer a single constructive act that Democrats should do beyond yelling and name-calling.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #53)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:34 PM

62. You keep insisting that this is only about yelling and screaming when it is anything but that.

It's about taking action, something that YOU obviously aren't interested in seeing them do. Otherwise, you wouldn't keep making believe that my post is only about screaming and yelling.

Do you know what "taking action" means?

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #62)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:37 PM

64. All you've proposed is yelling and screaming

Yes, I know exactly what "take action" means. And I've been waiting for you to explain what action you propose Democrats take beyond yelling and calling people names.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #64)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:45 PM

70. Not true. I proposed taking action. Read the first sentence of my post.

All you're doing is trying to spin my post into something that only means yelling and screaming, when you know darn well it's about fighting back. You really seem to enjoy wasting my time.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #70)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:55 PM

74. Yes, you proposed "taking action" yet somehow keep forgetting to share what that action is

"Take action" isn't a thing any more than demanding that "somebody DO something!" is. Unless you can come up with the action you think they should take (beyond screaming bloody murder), it's all just empty talk.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #74)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:12 PM

83. Why is it that you want to see the GOP continue walking all over us with no response?

Wouldn't you rather see our people fight fire with fire? Wow.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #74)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:23 PM

94. You fail to see the power of words

Republicans know that power. They know that if they "scream bloody murder" about even the smallest "scandal", will turn some off of Democrats. Then they "scream bloody murder" at the next "scandal" maybe only a few days later. Over and over. Each time they convince a few more Republican voters that they made the right choice not to give Hillary any power. And now the GOP have gotten their base so frightened of Democrats, believing the most outrageous conspiracies. it will take a generation to bring them back to reality.

Its not that Democrats have to lie and promote faux scandals. Because there are enough real scandals. And scandal is too light a word for their traitorous actions lately.

I wish they would even just pretend they are upset if they have to ffs. Republicans do it all the time and it works. Voters take their cue from their leaders. If their leaders are twiddling their thumbs and talking about "moving forward" once again, so will their supporters.

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #94)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:27 PM

99. And they have message discipline

if you see six Republicans on six different media outlets, they all have the same message. Yes, delivery may vary, but it is the same message and it isn't "be civil and cooperate".

We need to have a message and hammer it over and over and over.

That "Liar" thing? Every Democrat should have been saying this for a long time. Get it into the realm of 'common knowledge'.

But, instead everyone hedges trying to appear conciliatory.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #99)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:16 PM

152. +1000

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #94)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:32 PM

103. Yes - "Voters take their cue from their leaders"

And just 7 weeks ago a record number of voters elected a leader who doesn't scream bloody murder and picked him over the guy who makes the most noise.

And funny that you point to the power of words. Of course words have power - something that many of us try to explain to the "oh, no - not another strongly-worded letter! Stop talking and DO something" detractors. But words don't suddenly gain more power when they are screamed loudly.

The bottom line is the OP repeatedly demands that the Democrats take action, yet consistently fails to even broadly outline what that action might be. Claiming that "words have power" is not a defense to that kind of empty posturing.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #103)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:57 PM

128. "Claiming that "words have power" is not a defense to that kind of empty posturing"

Not using words, in a demanding, loud, authoritative, and even angry way when warranted, and frequently, is an advancement on "empty posturing".

I'd take issue with "words don't suddenly gain more power when they are screamed loudly" Try it yourself. Yelling "I fucking hate 2020!", has more power than mummling it under your breath. But that isn't even the OPs argument. Its simply showing at least some emotion, some urgency, and doing it way more frequently.

People take their cue from their leaders. Exactly. If a leader, for instance, downplays the COVID virus, scoffs at masks, and SD, and does that consistently and often, many of that leader's supporters will follow suit.

And if other leaders were on air every day explaining the seriousness of what Trump has been doing, in a serious tone to fit the threat, you'd have more people, naturally, perk up their ears. Not us, we already are there, but others that only hear how Democrats are the evil party pounded into them every day. Those who then look towards the Democratic party and all they get is "lets just tone everything down and move forward"

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #94)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 03:58 PM

317. NO. You're Wrong.. she doesn't "fail" as you say

to see anything. Her Words have Power.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #62)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:58 PM

231. What "action" do you want them to take? That could mean anything.....

They were tired last night, so they took action - they went to bed. They were hungry today, so they "took action" - they had lunch. Etc....

WHAT action do you want them to take?

I've relayed this story to people a hundred times over the years:

In my very last class of Engineering School, 48 years ago, our student advisors came in and gave us advise for our careers. He told us that over the course of our working life, we'd see things we didn't agree with or thought could be done better. But, he said, if you're going to criticize anything you had BETTER be prepared with your own proposal on how to do it. Otherwise you're only talking and most likely make yourself look like a fool.

That was May, 1972, and I'll never forget it. I've tried to live up to that ever since.

So, please, WHAT action do you want them to take, anything? Otherwise it's just "yelling and screaming".

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Response to George II (Reply #231)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 09:14 PM

232. No matter how many more times you nag me about this

I am not going to answer you with some sort of list. When I did my post, I didn't see any need to make some sort of a wish list of specific actions for the simple reason that it should have been clear from the start that I just wanted them to take ANY action. By "any action" it should be perfectly clear that I only want them to fight back harder than they appear to be fighting and do something, anything, besides just talking about it. If you are satisfied with the way they're fighting back against the GOP, then good for you. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

BTW, I did respond to someone else with some specific actions that I mentioned in a post up-thread which you might have missed, due to so many posts here, but it was someone who was actually polite about asking me for it, rather than nagging me constantly about it, so I did my best to give them a few specifics.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #232)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 09:20 PM

234. So, in other words you don't like what Schumer, et. al., are doing but you can't say how....

....or what they can do better.

I've been polite, not nagging. But if the question isn't answered and it has to be reposed, I suppose some might look at it as "nagging".

Can you direct me to the post number you're referring to?

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Response to George II (Reply #234)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 09:26 PM

235. whatever

post 217.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #235)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 10:05 PM

239. whatever....just read it. In other words nothing specific - just what another poster spoke about.

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Response to George II (Reply #239)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 10:26 PM

240. That's a crock and you know it

I realize that the ONLY reason you nagged me over and over again like a broken record was for the simple reason that you wanted to see one more post of mine just so you could try to diminish it in any way you could. Those words in that post were mine, not someone else's, and what I said was specific.

What amazes me, though, is how you would rather see the Democrats sit back and get pounded into the earth by the GOP and never want them to do anything about it except to turn the other cheek and let bygones be bygones. Unbelievable.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #240)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:07 AM

290. More strawmen and false dilemma fallacies

 

A false dilemma (sometimes called false dichotomy) is a type of informal, correlative-based fallacy in which a statement falsely claims or assumes an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional logically valid option.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma


A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.


https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/

You complained about someone else copying and pasting the same thing as though that would somehow make it true...

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:29 PM

55. What about Hunter Biden ? Barr said there is nothing there .

There are already cases going on against Trump.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #55)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:49 PM

72. Good point, JI7.

I guess I'd just like to see our people go after THEM with a vengeance since THEY deserve it way more than Hunter does. You are right though. Barr did say there was nothing there, and that is a good thing.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:22 PM

46. Even Katy Porter doesn't do what you suggest

She's smart enough to know that throwing tantrums will get us nowhere. Unlike this OP.

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Response to kcr (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:26 PM

51. It's Katie, not Katy

and no one threw any tantrums, but thanks for trying.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #51)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:38 PM

65. Pretty sorry attempt on your part

There's nothing about action in your OP. Only about "screaming bloody murder".

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Response to kcr (Reply #65)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:40 PM

67. "There's nothng about taking action in my OP"?? Really? It's right there in the first sentence

of my post. Maybe you missed it, or maybe you were responding to the wrong post. Who knows.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:41 PM

68. REALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #67)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:06 PM

76. Really

You demand they take action, but the only action you recommend in your OP is to scream bloody murder.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #76)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:10 PM

79. You still haven't explained why you'd rather sit back and do nothing.

Why is that?

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #79)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:12 PM

84. Interesting choice to respond to the non-yelly "really"

I would have thought you'd have been a fan.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #79)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:13 PM

85. Because I don't get baited by bullshit

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #79)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:32 AM

296. Again with the same strawman and false dilemma

 

A false dilemma (sometimes called false dichotomy) is a type of informal, correlative-based fallacy in which a statement falsely claims or assumes an "either/or" situation, when in fact there is at least one additional logically valid option.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma


A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making.


https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-straw-man/

You seem to think that anyone that disagrees with you in any way is the polar opposite of you on everything and accuse them of being ridicilous, which is clearly not the case. And no, no one wants Democrats to "do nothing," and I think you know it's ridiculous to try to claim that about anyone who simply asks you to articulate your demands of Democratic beyond that they should be "screaming bloody murder" like you would be in their position, which obviously, you are not.

You've thrown these same fallacies at several posters, rather than actually reply to them. If you need fallacies to defend your point, maybe your point needs to be re-examined.

Just a thought.


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Response to kcr (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:27 PM

52. Exactly.

Some Democrats want our leaders to behave like Donald Trump.

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Response to kcr (Reply #46)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:31 PM

58. Yup, The reason she is good is because she understands the issue and doesn't just repeat talking poi

She is able to ask reasonable questions which they can't answer which makes them look bad.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:29 PM

54. too much investment in "comity" and institutional tradition.

It took Gerald Nadler six months to get Barr under oath.

Hire Lakoff, for god's sake, and do what he says. Enforce message discipline. Seize the news narrative every freaking day. That's how Karl Rove won elections. Seize the news by 5 p.m. every day by MAKING NEWS.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:31 PM

59. At this time in history, our nation needs calm. That is one of the

many reasons that Biden won.

Right now is not the time for strident voices. Maybe later, but not right now.

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Response to patricia92243 (Reply #59)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:26 AM

265. It is, apparently, never the time for

speaking up and speaking the unvarnished truth. If not now, when?

When can we call them what they are? Oh, never?

That doesn't work for some of us.

When can there be consequences for illegal activity? Never?

Yeah, that doesn't work either.

It does do something though.

It ensures that it will happen again. What Republicans have learned from Trump is that they have to be slightly (not a lot, just a little) smarter and they can push us entirely into dictatorship, because there are no consequences for them for anything.

They can do what they want with impunity and receive token pushback and some carefully chosen, but somewhat, well, kinda, quasi-sternly worded letters stating that they should really try to be a little nicer as they destroy our nation.

Or, we can stand up and say ENOUGH!

But, it probably isn't time for that, right? Too mean?

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Response to Bettie (Reply #265)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:00 AM

272. +1000

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:38 PM

66. I love how some folks are trying to make like my post is only about screaming and yelling

when anyone who actually read it knows that it's about taking action, rather than sitting back and only complaining. Screaming bloody murder is just a small part of what can be done. Taking action is the major point.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:14 PM

87. What action?

Please be specific.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:15 PM

90. Yes, hard to miss. Such a mischaracterization, quite a distraction from

what I agree with you is our greatest need for improvement: powerful messaging. We have the better moral position but time after time, they dominate the narrative. McConnell talks like he’s the reasonable one. One question I have is why we don’t publicly, vociferously attack McConnell. Maybe we can’t take action right now, but we should be breathing fire in our public sound bites.

Case in point: Steny Hoyer was on the news last week, seems like a perfectly nice, reasonably guy, but didn’t have a potent take away message... people can easily think the parties disagreeing is just politics as usual, as opposed to one party blocking desperately needed help to average people while having stretched the deficit for corporate/wealthy tax breaks.

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Response to JudyM (Reply #90)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:27 PM

101. Thank you.

Much appreciated!

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:47 PM

71. Katie, Kamala, AOC, others, are representing the best we can be. eom.

K/R

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 03:54 PM

73. BS. One more "Democrats don't know how to fight"

"DO something" whiny assed post. It gets truly tiresome. Democrats have just finished up pushing a major stimulus package, that involved a bruising and brutal political battle, over the finish line in the Congress. They fought like hell -- and won a good deal more than they lost. The Democrats are involved in a do or die battle of desperation down in Georgia. Tooth, fang and claw -- and by every account exceeding expectations. (and Loeffler and Perdue are getting slammed virtually every day in the national press. Hmmm?) The Biden team is performing admirably, and already drawing praise from around the world, for presenting the prospect of return to serious and competent governance -- all the while wading through the swamps of the most belligerent transition since the civil war -- and a pandemic -- and a vaccine roll out that represents the most critical health (and mortality) measure taken in this country in a lifetime, including all the wars fought -- and a rolling cybersecurity threat that becomes more frightening in its scope (and necessary response) with every new revelation ....

And what we get from DU is, "They're not fighting hard enough ..." "I'm really disappointed .." "We need James Carville in the Senate .."

Gee -- so sorry we're not measuring up! Maybe you and James can fix that for us in the next election cycle. Ungrateful little (whiny) brat.

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Response to stopdiggin (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:07 PM

77. Excellent response

Thank you for taking the time to write it.

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Response to stopdiggin (Reply #73)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:23 PM

185. Thank you. The eternal "Why didn't/don't Democrats stop ____ ?" complaint.

This "fight" thing, always accusing Democrats of not fighting -- it doesn't mean anything. Look at the politicians who repeat over and over that the Democratic Party ignores working and middle classes and they are the only ones who really fight for the working class. What's really going on is they are ignoring the history of the Democratic Party and reality. Those are the ones least likely to actually get anything done, to get legislation passed, to do the actual job.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:05 PM

75. Yup, always the fault of those Democrats

They'd rather govern than fight.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:10 PM

81. This is why I love Katie Porter!

The most no-nonsense there is!

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:11 PM

82. Enough of this!

Why don't you rise to the top of the party then?

Fight back how? We have to win enough elections. Is this helping get the two GA senators? It is not.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:14 PM

86. Some of us,

have felt this for years and years. Thanks for daring to comment on this on DU.

Most recently it started with the 2000 election, confirmed with the 2004 election, and slammed home by the impeachment that failed.
I started yelling from the rooftops in 1980, a few months into the HWBush/Cheney/Rumsfeld administration.

Some times I feel like we have long ago allowed this to progress to the Point of No Return......

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #86)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:43 PM

113. You're welcome

I knew I would take a little soft heat over this, but I felt it has to be said because, like many others here, I think this is a major problem that we finally need to address for the sake of our future.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:14 PM

88. Rec

The old paradigm is gone, but too many are just too damn comfortably numb. None of this much matters, though, when law enforcement refuses to act.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:15 PM

89. What should they be doing?

Numerous people have asked you what action you think should be taken...so what’s your suggestion?

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Response to cwydro (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:24 PM

96. We can at least turn the tables on them.

Every time they do ANYTHING to us that they shouldn't be doing, how about we do to them what they do to us.

One example: Make the word "conservative" a word that belongs in the gutter. Can we at least do that? It shouldn't be all that hard for our people to do to the word "conservative" what those assholes have done to the word "liberal."

BTW, I answered you because of the polite way you asked.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:32 PM

104. In what way should we "turn the tables on them"? Calling them names?

I've seen plenty of name calling -- for example, calling the Nazis and fascists. Do you want something beyond that?

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #96)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:34 PM

107. Nothing will make "conservative" a dirty word faster

than accusing Dems of being weak and twiddling their thumbs. Good plan.

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Response to kcr (Reply #107)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:48 PM

192. +1

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:30 PM

102. Thanks for fighting the good fight

or as I call it, "screaming into the void".

It is frustrating that the first impulse of several is to say "nope, everything is PERFECT!...except for those loud progressives who need to sit down and shut up".

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Response to Bettie (Reply #102)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:38 PM

110. You're very welcome

Thanks for all your contributions to this thread.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #102)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:20 PM

157. Nonsense. Nobody is saying that.

"nope, everything is PERFECT!...except for those loud progressives who need to sit down and shut up".
Nonsense. Nobody is saying that.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #157)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:58 PM

195. Brings back memories.

All the times people repeated absurd propaganda attacks on Hillary Clinton, practically calling her Satan, and when you said no, that's not true, they yelled "WHY DO YOU THINK SHE'S PERFECT?" That happened a lot.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #102)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:42 PM

171. Said no Democrat ever.

It is frustrating that the first impulse of several is to say "nope, everything is PERFECT!..


Said no Democrat ever.

Nearly 103K new cases today alone, thousands dying per day, unemployment sky rocketing and people are losing their homes. People are starving, waiting in lines for hours for a box of food that they will have to stretch for weeks. And that's just the virus.

Yet you said: It is frustrating that the first impulse of several is to say "nope, everything is PERFECT!

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:33 PM

105. The Lincoln Project proved this

We needed ex-Republican strategists to craft the hard-hitting ad campaign we saw during the lead-up to the election.
I say "needed" because there wasn't any before them, although surely we must have smart strategists in our party...don't we? Somewhere? Bueller??

The fact is we have seen blatant criminality and political skulduggery for years out of the right. They lie, repeatedly; they smear us without consequence as "socialists" and "radical far left" as they actually plot to overturn a fair election and install their cabal.

We must get tough. Bullies only succeed when they are successful in intimidating their prey. Stand up to them and they melt.

We must do better. How about Stacy Abrams for national party post?

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:33 PM

106. I am very surprised this OP was allowed to stand.

Bash Democrats much? You're allowed to be frustrated with the divisive political climate but the suggestion that Dem leadership should "scream bloody murder" is ridiculous. If you didn't really mean they should "scream bloody murder" then what action are you suggesting they take? By all means enlighten us or better yet, email our Democratic leadership with your suggestions. I'm sure it would be appreciated. No sarcasm intended. Put your money where your mouth is, please and thank you.

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Response to MontanaMama (Reply #106)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:06 PM

197. Thank you for trying.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:35 PM

108. I've been screaming the same message for decades.

And nothing much has happened. Same old shit: Democrats remain bound by a set of Good Conduct Rules that the republicans used for toilet paper, long ago. Until we get down in the gutter and fight them face to face, we're going to keep getting whipped, and monsters like trump are going to keep getting in office.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #108)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:50 PM

120. Excellent post

I worry about the same thing. Here we have the smartest people in our Party, yet the way politics are today we're not going to beat the bad guys unless we do exactly what you said we need to do.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:48 PM

118. There shouldn't be a FIGHT to begin with.

Not a game.

Common good.

Too much $ in this and it's NOT a business.

Citizens United ruling, now that has go to go!





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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:49 PM

119. I agree 100%

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:51 PM

121. Constructive criticism isn't screaming, yelling, bashing or trashing, so thank you for this.

We must get beyond the idea that unless we nod at our leaders 24/7, and agree with everything they do and the way they do it, we’re hurting our party. New ideas are just that....N-E-W, different, not regular, not always like yesterday.

I think it would be useful to ask ourselves what was it that the brains behind The Lincoln Project did that caused so many people to stop and listen....then send a contribution? They’re still on fire, still gathering support. Why?

Why is it that Ted Lieu stands out?Or Katie Porter? Because they speak like the typical Washington politician? Because they never make waves? Because they don’t dare to be different?

There is a reason there are a zillion jokes about what kind of weapons Democrats bring to a gun fight. It’s way, way, way beyond time for us to start acting like our lives depend on crushing the fascist threat this nation faces. We can’t do that by shaking hands with our dear friends across the aisle.

It’s asinine to believe there are no areas in which our party can improve.

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Response to democrank (Reply #121)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:54 PM

125. We don't have to nod our heads all the time

But we can certainly trash stupid ideas like turning into the GOP.

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Response to kcr (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:03 PM

137. I agree.

I recently listened to historian Jon Meacham talk about what’s at stake. He chose his words carefully, made some fierce points, and certainty sounded nothing like the GOP. There are plenty of examples out there of people who know exactly how to choose and use words....without sounding like crazed Republicans.

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Response to kcr (Reply #125)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:37 PM

168. Lord. Nobody is suggesting that.

But we can certainly trash stupid ideas like turning into the GOP.
Lord. Nobody is suggesting that. But I get where you're coming from.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #168)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:57 PM

173. Well, except only to suggest we give it right back to them

But that's the thing. It's all just vague suggestions to attack Republicans by screaming and yelling. I can't help but note that nowhere is there any attacking of Republicans going on. That might be nice, for an example, or inspiration. It just seems to me like it's just an excuse to bash Dems, as usual. These screeds never give concrete examples, nor do they ever actually attack Republicans.

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Response to kcr (Reply #173)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:59 PM

177. Ah, yes! You're certainly right about that!



Lists of problems with no solutions... very frustrating.

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Response to kcr (Reply #173)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:12 PM

198. +1

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Response to democrank (Reply #121)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:20 PM

155. Hear, hear!

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:52 PM

122. How about they explain this new deal that we are getting. We were offered a

better deal 6 months ago and turned it down, now we are all supposed to thrilled because of the scraps we are finally getting. Why??? If that is considered fighting, they need to switch to mortal combat.

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Response to vsrazdem (Reply #122)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:20 PM

200. No. "Nancy Pelosi didn't 'turn down' a great deal and then accept a much worse deal. There wasn't

any deal to turn down."

You can read about it here:

http://www.wonkette.com/pelosi-stimulus

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:53 PM

123. You're 100% right. It's time for a new generation of leadership who understands:

A) What we're really up against
B) How to use 21st century media effectively
C) The fact that we need to WIELD power when we have it, especially given the structural disadvantages that make it difficult for Democrats to gain power in the first place
D) That politics is no longer a game for insiders who have a rowdy debate for the cameras and then chum it up in the steam room
E) That "bipartisanship" for its own sake isn't the end goal, especially when only one side has any interest in it

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Response to Maven (Reply #123)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:05 PM

139. Well said!

I have one addition: Rules only work when both sides agree that rules exist.

Sadly, when Republicans are in power, Democrats follow the rules and do as they are asked, because they are generally decent people.

When Democrats are in power, Republicans dig in their heels and fight everything, even things everyone agrees on. They don't follow any rules (why should they? There are zero consequences for anything they do) and eventually either succeed in ensuring that any progress made is minimal or stopping everything.

We need to be tougher, to not back down, to realize that Lucy is going to pull the football away EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #139)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:32 PM

249. I agree with both you and Maven

Thank you.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:57 PM

127. For starters

Start referring to Trump as a Russian asset and a traitor. Let the MAGAs try to explain to the public why he doesn't deserve to be called that.

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Response to Oscarthegreat (Reply #127)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:01 PM

133. Yes

If only they would do that, and use the exact words you suggest, it would not only make the other side think twice about starting shit with our people, but it would also put them on the defensive.

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Response to Oscarthegreat (Reply #127)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:50 PM

253. AMEN!!! FFS yes!

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Response to Oscarthegreat (Reply #127)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:23 AM

264. Democrats have been calling him that for years

His followers don't care.

You think they will suddenly get flummoxed if Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Schumer starts saying it?

And why should Democrats go out of their way trying to bait Trump supporters into sounding like clueless idiots? They've been making fools of themselves all over the airwaves for years. They have better things to do than waste their time baiting jackasses.

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Response to Oscarthegreat (Reply #127)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:30 AM

267. Remember when Hillary Clinton called him a puppet of Putin in 2016.

"No puppet. No puppet. YOU'RE the puppet."

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:57 PM

129. But when Democrats fight back or speak out..

 

..the republicans call us mean names!

Plus, to get anything done in this government we have to take into consideration what all the republicans want to do and do that first. And then maybe we can negotiate something that we want to do but we will have to do another thing for the republicans in order to get half of what we want.

That’s just the way it is. We can’t do anything about it. And it’s really, really bad if the left (eeew) fringe ever calls on us to quit giving the republicans everything they want. They are just so dumb and do not realize that in order to get anything we want done, we first have to make sure that republicans get everything that they want done.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 04:58 PM

130. Please define "play the game" and "fight fire with fire".

I understand the sentiment of frustration when it appears that nothing is happening, when you see Republicans spouting lies and engaging in seemingly criminal behavior.

What I would like to know is that "play the game" means. What is the expectation?

I know that you have said repeatedly, "Scream Bloody Murder", so are you saying that Democrats should yell, get more air time, something else? What have they not done that you are saying they should do. I have heard Pelosi calling Republicans out. I have seen Schumer do it too. Now, I personally, don't particularly like Schumer's style of communication, but he has to be elected as Minority Leader so enough Senators think he is effective enough to vote him in.

It is easier to try to destroy faith in government than to maintain faith in it. Government is huge, slow moving, sometimes ineffective, and has to answer to constituencies that often have competing priorities. Republicans don't want to govern. They want to rule. They don't care if government serves the needs of the constituent. They want the structure to protect the order they see as correct. If they are corrupt, so what? They are not there to serve the needs of the people, they are there to wield power and protect the wealthiest people.

Porter is effective at communicating when in session. She is a prosecutor and can formulate a good plan of questioning. So can Kamala Harris and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has shown promise. However, Fighting back means more than just calling names, making the opposition trip over themselves, etc... I would like to hear, within the structure of Congress and the media, what you think would be more effective and what Democrats are not doing?

"Play the game" can mean anything. Do we lie like Republicans do? Do we do character assassination? Do we gum up the works and stop government from functioning for the people, like Republicans? Do we buy up media outlets and start putting out propaganda like Republicans? If so, who buys the media, where would our benefactors who want to put out a message of the wealthy paying their fair share, come from?

Lots of details there that would need fleshing out.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:06 PM

140. In the Top Ten Biden moves

Impeach and remove Clarence Thomas due to his highly visible conflict of interest. Based on his active participation in his wife's political activities.
Increase the number of Justices by two and replace Thomas.


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Response to homegirl (Reply #140)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:42 PM

228. The president doesn't impeach Supreme Court justices

The president doesn't impeach anybody and, unless they themselves is being impeached, has absolutely no role in the impeachment process.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #228)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 03:54 PM

316. Do you have any

doubts that the Speaker of the House would not embrace that task?

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Response to homegirl (Reply #316)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 04:29 PM

318. I have serious doubts she would waste her time with such an effort

Perhaps you can add that to your list of Pelosi moves... But it certainly shouldn't be on your Biden to do list

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #318)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 06:07 PM

322. I should have been

more obvious. Biden won't have to, or even consider it. Nancy Pelosi is ready, willing and able!


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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:08 PM

142. You are right and I'm really tired of it.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:11 PM

144. I agree. Our timidity - and 'taking high road bullshit - is risking our Democracy

If any party leadership is listening - fight back because we are in a war with an evil enemy that is happy to kill millions for their own goals.

Fighting meekly with them will destroy our country.

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Response to samsingh (Reply #144)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:12 PM

146. Keepin' the powder dry

in case there's ever an emergency.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #146)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:56 PM

194. Like The Dems with Leader Nancy

Pelosi did when they Won the Blue Wave House Victory in 2018 on Health Care & then IMPEACHED trump on December 18, 2019.'

And we Went on to Win the Presidency in a Landslide with 81 Million Votes & 306 EVss!

How "Dry was the Powder"?

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Response to Cha (Reply #194)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:27 PM

202. I remember how folks DEMANDED Pelosi impeach Trump and called her a weak coward

when she didn't do it fast enough for them.

when it was pointed out that impeachment would not remove him from office, they insisted that that didn't matter. He needed to be impeached just to make a statement.

And when Pelosi did skillfully mastermind an impeachment with the support of her full caucus, These folks who demanded that impeachment was a necessity were strangely silent... except to attack the Democrats for not producing enough evidence in the impeachment to get the Senate to remove him. Some of them actually seemed to resent that Pelosi did what they demanded, thereby removing an excuse for trashing her and the Democrats as weak enablers.

And now that the Democrats have won the White House back, that Democrats are weak and will NEVER impeach him crowd seem to have forgotten that the Democrats have indeed been very tough and aggressive - not only did they impeach, but they then went on to kick his butt in the election. And they also also seem to have conveniently forgotten how wrong they were in the past but expect the rest of us to accept their "Democrats are weak" schtick this time around.


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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #202)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:33 PM

205. +1

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #202)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:55 PM

213. Yeah, I remember that, too.. all

too well.

And, now some seem to have forgotten it.. like it never happened. The gop in the Senate said about the Impeachment.. "let the Voters Decide".. well the Voters HAVE Decided.

trump is Impeached and The Voters Decided he's GONE.

But now.. it's all about Bashing the Democrats Again.. that's why we "lose elections". Thankfully it didn't work with PE Joe Biden & VPE Kamala Harris.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #202)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:33 PM

227. Sing it!

Thank you.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #202)


Response to Cha (Reply #194)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:23 PM

223. + eternity.

Thank you Cha. You just nailed it in one post.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:20 PM

156. So you think being a some sort of unified fighting machine

wouldn't make us into the same angry, hate-filled, despotic controlled mess like the other side?

Life doesn't work that way. Sorry.

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Response to relayerbob (Reply #156)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:25 PM

161. Your words not mine. nt

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:29 PM

164. Yes, playing offense, what a concept

And to the question of what exactly that means, how about something simple like having every Dem who goes on television call the Republicans the Party of Crazy.

Why? Because none of them have come out and repudiated QAnon. Say you won’t stop calling them the Party of Crazy until each and every Republican member of Congress is on the record as saying they don’t believe Washington is infested with devil worshipping sexual predators. Ask journalists why they refuse to ask Republican leadership if Q really knows. Or if Obama should be subpoenaed, or if they believe there’s a microchip in the Pfizer vaccine.

Because that’s what THEY would do to US if we had a Marjorie Taylor Greene in our midst and a huge chunk of our base believed all that shit. Just like we’re all commie freaks because somebody who champions MFA honeymooned in Russia 40 years ago.

Because we don’t routinely put this kind of pressure on Republicans, because we play nice, because we are constantly on the defensive, the Republican Party gets a free pass on all of their crazy. They get to have their cake (the votes of lunatics) and eat it too (thumbing their nose at said lunatics in private thereby preserving their “respectability”).

Force them to repudiate the crazy. Drive a fucking wedge through their party and see what happens. Or just keep apologizing for having radical thoughts like police reform, affordable health care and sustainable climate policies.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #164)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:40 PM

170. Exactly. Thank you.

That's exactly what fighting with fire means, and it's absolutely mind boggling how a certain couple of posters keep asking for specifics on how to take action or how to define fighting with fire. We need people who are willing to fight back, not people who want to sit back and continue taking shit from the GOP. Thanks for your post.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #170)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:51 PM

172. Thanks for the thread

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #164)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 08:49 PM

230. Excellent point. nt

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #164)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:18 AM

276. Agree with you 100 percent.

Tell the fucking truth about what republicans are and what they do to the people
.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:58 PM

174. Oh my! Can't believe the blind loyalty crowd hasn't zapped this. Kudos

to you! ANY organization, no matter if it's a business, organization or political party can not be successful IF it doesn't consistently assess itself. Successes and failures (like going from $3+ trillion to less than $1....)

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 05:59 PM

175. Please go easy with such divisive and specious bellyaching like this. WE need to GOTV better and

provide solid Democratic Party majorities in both chambers in 2022.
Given the current enormous power which Senator McConnell wields, Pelosi and Schumer have undertaken every major challenge it was possible to effectively pursue, including potent committee hearings and a cogent impeachment trial.
I'm inordinately proud of how valiantly they've fought while in control of only the House of Reps up against POTUS, Senate, and a conservative SCOTUS. United we stand.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:01 PM

180. it's why we need NEW BLOOD

sick of this complacency

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:08 PM

183. You are getting a lot of flack for your post but you are right!

The Gen-Z generation loves a fighter like AOC. I don't necessarily agree with AOC when she attacks other Dems, but the way she attacks the GOP is why the younger generation loves her.

The Dems are not good at messaging, never have been. I don't believe your post means just yelling and ranting (as some are accusing you of calling for) but it does mean getting smarter at fighting back and stop falling all over ourselves just to prove how "good" we are. (See? Look at us! We're the good people! Don't you notice how nice we are being?)

Look at we did to Al Franken. In the rush to show how "pure" we were and how we don't tolerate sexual harassment like those "other guys", we forgot to stop look at the actual accusations. We didn't even give Al Franken a chance for an investigation. We ran him out on a rail just to prove how much better we were than the GOP as the GOP laughed their *sses off watching us shoot ourselves in the foot. And we do it time and time again. It seems we're tougher on our own party than we are on the GOP.

Biden's response to a question from the press as to whether he would the Trump Administration accountable for having broken laws was a perfect example of poor messaging. The correct answer was "Any investigations will be left up to the DOJ. The DOJ works for the American people, not me." STOP. But Joe had to add "but I'd really like to see the nation healed." stirring up the fear that Biden will "let bygones be bygones" fear. NO! These people BROKE THE LAW. Hold them to the same standards that the average citizen is held to. Who wants to vote for a party that won't even hold politicians responsible for blatant crimes, even bordering on treason? Maybe the new DOJ will go after those in the Trump Administration, but that's not the message Joe sent. Thank God he didn't say that before the election. I think a big reason many turned out was they wanted to see TRUMP AND CREW HELD ACCOUNTABLE!!!!! If people had the idea Joe was going to "look forward, not back" and "let bygones be bygones" I guarantee the turn-out for Biden would have been lower. Why bother?

We need to get much much better at messaging.

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Response to crimycarny (Reply #183)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:16 PM

184. Yes, we sure can improve on that

We've had problems with our messaging that might have cost us valuable votes in some of the down ballot races.

BTW, thank you for your second paragraph. I'm glad you saw it that way because you are exactly right about that.

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Response to mtnsnake (Reply #184)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:28 PM

187. What are the problems, again, with our messaging? Please at least begin a list.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #187)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 01:07 AM

274. Why do you need a list?

But let me start with the first one that pops into my head: “defund the police”. Worst messaging ever,

I already mentioned a couple other examples in my post: crucifying one of our most powerful assets in the Senate, Al Franken, without even scratching the surface of the allegations against him. What was the message? Democrats don’t care about “innocent until proven guilty” and will turn on their backs on a decent man so they don’t risk being tainted. That’s not strength, that’s cowardice.

Remember how many Democrats ran away from Obama in the 2010 midterms? They (wrongfully) assumed talking about their support for Obamacare would hurt them. How’d that work out?

Joe Biden’s elaborating on the need to “heal the nation” in direct response to a question from the press about whether or not the DOJ under the Biden administration would go after corruption and crimes in the Trump Administration.

You may “well, that’s not what he meant”, or “defund the police doesn’t mean to abolish the police”

When you’re stuck explaining what you mean, you’re losing.

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Response to crimycarny (Reply #274)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:25 AM

294. Condensing our message problems is a good start, is why.

So thank you for the effort. Let's see if I get this:

1. No messy, negatively interpretable statements like
"Defund the police"

2. No cowardly caving to opponents' demands for perfectionism as the flip side of their false equivalency and corruptions.
eg, Al Franken

3. Full unequivocal support for our presidents once in office
eg, Obama in the 2010 midterms

4. No Democratic president should sidestep tough enforcement questions
eg, Biden's not defining in advance what the next DOJ should do as 'healing'

Sound okay? I've got a couple to add, myself.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #294)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 04:30 PM

319. With slight modifications

You wrote:

3. Full unequivocal support for our presidents once in office
eg, Obama in the 2010 midterms

I would not want “full unequivocal support” if we had a President who was corrupt like Trump or putting in policies that conflict wildly with progressive policies (such as huge tax cuts for rich while cutting social security). Not anything like blind obedience, but don’t run away from a President who is upholding Democratic ideals—as Obamacare was—due to purely personal political survival.

4. 4. No Democratic president should sidestep tough enforcement questions
eg, Biden's not defining in advance what the next DOJ should do as 'healing'

I don’t know if Biden sidestepped versus adding unnecessary commentary. But, regardless, the Democratic Party needs to show a willingness to fight and uphold the law. The Democratic Party is often seen as “weak” or wishy washy. I don’t think that is true but the appearance is often that way. So be willing to take a stronger stance versus “nice guy”. You can be both at the same time.

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Response to crimycarny (Reply #319)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 05:12 PM

321. Okay. Well. See, I thought I was summarizing what you said, so here's an example of

how trying to reach agreement depends so heavily on accepting different words.

If you're arguing with my wording, then fine.
If you're arguing with my understanding your content, then fine.

I was trying for something closer to a elevator pitch to fellow Democrats, is all.

Maybe this is why it's hard to get a majority of Democrats to see their common way to "fight back," when we can't get an elevator pitch of informal fight points together.

Not anyone's fault, imo, just tough in a big tent, maybe.

And I'm not in any way trying to say we shouldn't fight better. We should.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #321)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 07:48 PM

323. ???

I wasn’t arguing at all. Just clarifying my original meaning when you summarized. I took your summary as “So if I understand correctly, this is what you’re saying”. And I merely answered with “yes, except a couple of caveats”...not meant as argumentative, critical, or anything along those lines.

Dear God you can always tell a progressive forum over a far right. Progressives always get into these intellectual “debates” (for lack of a better word) over very fine points of a conversation. Far right sites are more like “F*ck yeah dude!”..

LOL, that’s probably why we’re not so great at simple messaging.

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Response to crimycarny (Reply #323)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 08:24 PM

324. ...

The word argument is used as "explanation" not as heated exchange.
See, that's what I'm talking about.
The fact that we both have to clarify our meaning proves your previous point -- that if you have to explain your message, you're losing.

It's hard enough for all of us on the same side to agree about the nature of fight, and even about what words work.
But smarter people that us have said that as long as opponents keep talking, they're going to get somewhere more constructive (win-win) than literal fighting (win-lose). Win-win makes for mutual respect, if not allies.

When we buy too much into win-lose, we become like our dominator opponents, and we slowly lose our commitment to equality.

The fight involves more doing than messaging. Doing sends a stronger, clearer message than any words.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:25 PM

186. House Democrats have done a lot since 2016.

Last edited Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:37 PM - Edit history (2)

Passed both houses, signed by Trump
Secure 5G and Beyond Act of 2020 S. 893

Passed by both houses, vetoed by Trump
Relating to a national emergency declared by the President on February 15, 2019. (H.J.Res. 46, Vetoed March 15, 2019)

Passed by the House, waiting in the Senate

For the People Act of 2019, H.R. 1
Moving Forward Act H.R. 2
Elijah E. Cummings Lower Drug Costs Now Act H.R. 3
Voting Rights Advancement Act of 2019 H.R. 4
Equality Act, H.R. 5
American Dream and Promise Act, H.R. 6
H.R.7: Paycheck Fairness Act
H.R. 8: Bipartisan Background Checks Act of 2019
H.R. 9: Climate Action Now Act
H.R. 51: Washington, D.C. Admission Act
SAFE Banking Act of 2019, H.R. 1595
H.R. 7120: George Floyd Justice in Policing Act of 2020
H.R. 1585: Violence Against Women Reauthorization Act of 2019
H.R. 987: Strengthening Health Care and Lowering Prescription Drug Costs Act
H.R. 1644: Save the Internet Act of 2019
Marijuana Opportunity Reinvestment and Expungement Act, H.R. 3884
H.R. 4617: Stopping Harmful Interference in Elections for a Lasting Democracy Act

Other House Legislation

Recognizing the duty of the Federal Government to create a Green New Deal, H.Res. 109
H.R. 150: Grant Reporting Efficiency and Agreements Transparency Act of 2019 (GREAT Act).[2] Pertains to open data.
H.Res.411: No More Presidential Wars Act
H.R. 662: REACH Act
H.R. 899: To terminate the Department of Education.
Taxpayer First Act of 2019, H.R. 1957
H.R. 2107: Affordable College Textbook Act
Well-Informed, Scientific, & Efficient Government Act (WISE Government Act)
H.R.7085: Ending Qualified Immunity Act
H.R. 7650: Local Journalism Sustainability Act
Supreme Court Term Limits and Regular Appointments Act

Introduced in the Senate
Passed both houses, signed by Trump

John D. Dingell Jr. Conservation, Management, and Recreation Act

Passed both houses, vetoed by Trump
A joint resolution to direct the removal of United States Armed Forces from hostilities in the Republic of Yemen that have not been authorized by Congress. (S.J.Res. 7, Vetoed April 16, 2019)

https://www.congress.gov/search?q={%22congress%22:%22all%22,%22source%22:%22legislation%22,%22search%22:%22actionSessionCode:%22116-1|1000%22+AND+billIsReserved:%22N%22%22}&pageSort=documentNumber:asc&searchResultViewType=expanded

Governing isn't about fighting. It's about doing the People's business. Democrats have been about that.

The House investigated and held hearings during the Impeachment Process,
Wrote two articles of Impeachment
Held formal public Impeachment hearings
Publicly prosecuted the president before the US Senate

Speaker Pelosi has issued 1-4 press releases daily just in the last year.

At least five House Democrats appeared on television news shows every day

Democrats do. Constantly. They cannot be expected to do the Senate's, president's and media's job for them.

They cannot make their opponents do their jobs.

The only gridlock is on the do-nothing-former-Republicans' Trump and Senate side.

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Response to ancianita (Reply #186)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:31 PM

204. Thank you!

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:31 PM

188. Sure, keep bashing EVERY Democrat except for "a couple of others", i.e. all but 3.....

...(Porter and that alleged "couple of others) Did you ever notice that the ones that don't speak out daily in the media and the ones that make the least noise are the ones that are actually accomplishing things? And yet you bash them. Sure, they're not out in front of the camera every chance they get, they're not posting dozens of times on Twitter, not dancing on TikTok. No, they're back in their offices getting things done.

Except for Katie Porter (who DOES get things accomplished) all those you're hinting at may have virtually nothing to show for themselves over the last two years.

Why not tell us who specifically you're talking about and we can get a feel for their accomplishments here:

https://www.govtrack.us/

Or here:

https://www.congress.gov/

Make sense?

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Response to George II (Reply #188)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:38 PM

206. "the ones that make the least noise are the ones that are actually accomplishing things"

THIS. All you have to do is look at the record.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #206)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:49 PM

209. That's why it would be interesting to know of whom the OP is speaking, so we CAN....

....look at the record.

Katie Porter is exceptional. Of the 236 House Democrats in 2019, she has introduced more bills than 133 others.

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Response to George II (Reply #209)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:59 PM

216. It's, you know, "them."

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 06:32 PM

189. Attack on Democrats on a Democratic board!

 

I have no words

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:28 PM

203. trump LOST the FUCKING Election in a

Landslide with the Popular Vote & the EV Vote.

We Did DO SOMETHING ABOUT That FUCKER.

The Dems with Leader Nancy Pelosi Won the Blue Wave House Victory in 2018 on Health Care & then IMPEACHED trump on December 18, 2019.'

Are you contacting those Dems in Congress now who you don't think "are doing enough".. & letting them know how you feel about it? Otherwise what good is this?


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Response to Cha (Reply #203)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 07:57 PM

214. Hey Cha hows it going

Yes, I have tried contacting quite a few, some with some success, others not so much. I've dialed my fingers off and also emailed, and when I've had the chance I've tactfully asked them why more wasn't being done to stop Trump from doing what he is doing. Most of times it's just "We are doing the best we can." OTOH, if it's an email, I often get the "Thank you for your inquiry. Someone will get back to you about this." Then crickets. It's best to call by phone.

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Response to Cha (Reply #203)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 05:44 AM

287. If that's not fighting back, I don't know what is.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 09:15 PM

233. Here's why Republicans are good at messaging and communication:

Gutting of Capitol Hill staff began with the Gingrich Revolution, getting rid of lawyers, economics, investigators, auditors, analysts, and subject-matter experts. After the 2010 elections they cut even deeper:

"It's not as if the halls of Capitol Hill grew empty, free of scurrying staffers. Rather, Republicans dismissed policy-making aides and hired communications staffers -- whose principal responsibilities included writing talking points and raising their bosses' media profiles. GOP lawmakers, quite literally, decided to become less invested in governing and more invested in public relations. .... between 2011 and 2014 ... policy-making staff shrank by nearly 20 percent, while press and communications staff grew by nearly 15 percent. ... All of this was the opposite of what a governing party is supposed to prioritize."

Steve Benen, "The Impostors, How Republicans Quit Governing and Seized American Politics"

Democrats prefer to actually govern.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #233)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 09:32 PM

236. Good post.

I don't think anyone will disagree with that, but it doesn't mean that we can't fight back harder against them and still concentrate on governing at the same time.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #233)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 09:39 PM

237. We outspent them 2:1 in 2020 House contests

for a net loss of 11 seats. Seems like a redeployment of $ resources, of which we have much, aimed at improved communications should be looked at. We could call it the Walk and Chew Gum program.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #237)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 10:01 PM

238. Thank you.

Being good at politics, and governing, are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I rather think that you need to do the former in order to have a chance at the latter.

Tired of the justifications for weakness.

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Response to BeyondGeography (Reply #237)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:53 PM

254. yes, we need to do a better job getting our message out

though this was a very fucked up election with the pandemic and Trump's ramping up the madness to 110%

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Mon Dec 21, 2020, 11:22 PM

246. but but but aoc is gonna doom the party.

i hear ya. i rly do.

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Response to mtnsnake (Original post)

Tue Dec 22, 2020, 12:21 AM

262. Newly minted Dem Steve Schmidt knows how to do it

I do hope at least a few Dems will seek him out for advice on how to push back.

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