Suppose Biden Revokes all these Pardons..

[msfiddlestix]

By way of Executive Order?

If the Constitution establishes that a sitting President is privileged with the power to execute Executive Orders which then can be lawfully reversed by the next President, why can't a Pardon be reversed or revoked?

I think it's worth risking a court challenge of a SCOTUS decision which might rule against it, but maybe not..

Just thinking out loud while baking cookies and trying to remain optimistic while closing my eyes to the horror show that never ends.

What say you?

[StarfishSaver]

1. No, he can't. Executive orders cannot undo the Constitution

Presidents have a constitutional right to grant pardons. A subsequent president cannot use an executive order to revoke them.

[msfiddlestix]

12. Well then.

It is what it is, and not effin thing can be done about anything this psychotic in office has done, is doing, and is about to do. before Jan, 21.

What a horrible reality check. We can have monsters upending our constitution every single hour of each every day, but we can't reverse any of it even after winning an election.

[StarfishSaver]

24. Presidents have virtually unlimited power to pardon,, so Trump pardons art upending the Constitution

And no, this is not a situation that cannot be addressed. Trump and the people he's pardoning can be prosecuted for obstruction of justice bribery, and public corruption if it turns out there was a quid pro quo.

But it's not a crazy concept that a president cannot undo a constitutionally protected act through an executive order. That's actually a good thing.

[msfiddlestix]

27. I agree to the extent what is normal (my word)

I feel like we will never recover from the damage to what is considered legally appropriate for any sitting President.

I'm actually feeling a panic attack coming on, like I experienced early hours of Nov 3rd.

I'm trying to sort out how it might be possible to remedy what's happening right now. Apparently, there's fuck all we can do about any of this. And that makes me feel powerless, which sets up a physical reaction of panic.

[MineralMan]

2. He cannot do that.

Presidential pardons cannot be revoked by anyone.

[Hekate]

52. On the bright side, it only applies to federal crimes, & they give up their 5th Amendment right, &

...they tacitly acknowledge that they have indeed broken federal laws. But wait! There’s more! States can go after them for any state laws they may have broken. Oh, and that 5th Amendment thing? When they are hauled into court to testify against their felonious associates, they can’t plead the 5th.

So there is that. Go get ‘em, States.

[grumpyduck]

3. I would LOVE to see Biden reverse them.

I would be channeling Snoopy at suppertime.

[TlalocW]

5. Come up for air every now and then

I know you meant the suppertime dance, but I remembered this one.

TlalocW

[grumpyduck]

6. Close enough.

[bullimiami]

4. I think that argument is doomed to fail. Should try others though

[David__77]

7. I think that there's better things to do.

States can prosecute state crimes. There are other way to hobble people besides through legal action anyway.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

11. Not even then. If a pardon was given as a bribe, that corrupt act might be

prosecutable but the pardon itself can't be revoked.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

9. He can't. The presidential pardon power is absolute.

If Trump tries to pardon himself it might be challenged in court if he is indicted for a crime, but otherwise he can pardon anyone he wants. No subsequent president can undue a pardon.

[Ligyron]

10. Too bad lying to the FBI isn't a state crime.

Well, in this instance anyway.

[C_U_L8R]

31. If they lie to the FBI tomorrow.

It's a new crime.

The only way these crooks stay out of jail is to miraculously become law abiding citizens for the rest of their lives.

[Ligyron]

48. You're absolutely right.

They just can't help themselves, can they?

I feel better now.

[brooklynite]

13. The Constitution says nothing about Executive Orders.

EO’s in simplest terms are directive from the Executiveto the Executive Branch offices. Nothing to do with Pardons.

I sometimes think DU needs a Civics Class.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

18. DU needs a civics class, bigly.

Maybe passing a short quiz on the Constitution before being allowed to post in politics-related forums? Or at least acknowledging having read it?

[msfiddlestix]

35. So my post was a question seeking the answer

I expected to see responses from people who know the law, understands the legal facts and or nuances in the Constitution and offer it for enlightenment.

I didn't lay out a statement of fact. I did so because I feeling a lot of panic every single day and I also thought it's worthy of some discussion. It helps to have folks more knowledgeable to pipe in and offer their scholarly knowledge, which is why I put the question here but I certainly don't feel it was cause for condescension and insult.

I don't understand the point of that behavior here, really I don't. This board isn't a Law student message forum after all.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

37. I'm sorry; I didn't intend to insult anyone.

I would just encourage everyone to read the Constitution themselves; it's pretty short and most of the answers are right there. You don't need a law degree, and it's a good thing to be familiar with these days, since it's being shat on every day and so it needs to be understood and defended.

[msfiddlestix]

39. Sure

Apology accepted. Here's the thing, I have a copy in a slim little book tucked away some where. but you know what I've noticed the past 50 of my 70 years on this planet? The Constitution is sometimes silent on some things or is not perfectly clear on others. And that's why the question. I agree it's a good thing to be more familiar. And this is one way of getting more familiar, by asking questions.

[mtnsnake]

38. Why does DU need a civics class when everyone uses google?

Do you really think the all the "experts" around here are pulling ALL of this stuff straight out of their heads? Whenever a really tough question is asked, they're doing what most everyone else does on the these forums, running straight to Uncle Google to see who can find the answer the quickest. Google is my buddy! LOL

[Turin_C3PO]

49. We actually do have a few

constitutional lawyers on DU who can usually answer questions about stuff like this if something needs to be cleared up. They’ve been right about a lot of things these past four years.

[onenote]

19. Not just a class. An entire semester.

[littlemissmartypants]

30. At the very least, a designated group maybe...

I'd definitely subscribe to it.

❤ lmsp

[Ms. Toad]

20. only sometimes? n/t

[msfiddlestix]

29. Seriously didn't need the insult.

The current occupant has abused every aspect of the powers of the President without ANY immediate push back, only in the courts which sometimes have been swift but more often have been delayed long enough where the damage has been done.

So please...

[Hekate]

53. Hang in there; we are all rather raw right now, & a bit testy. I know I am. Welcome to DU anyway....

Hopefully it will get better eventually. Like we can start over when the monster is gone.

As for pardoned felons: if they’ve broken any state laws, the states can go after them. That’s why all eyes are on New York.

[msfiddlestix]

54. I have been struggling mightily to keep from panicking,

which has happened from time to time since 5 pm November 3rd Pacific Time when Indiana, and then Florida, and then another state had called their election results the minute their polls closed.

I have been an elections precinct poll worker (except this year) for several elections. An election result cannot possibly be called the instant the precinct closes. There's a huge amount of work that has to be done after the poll closes, and before the ballots are returned to the county registrars office for tabulation. They cannot be tabulated the instant the polling place closes. Yet the election was being called for Trump.

I shut the tv off but for the first time in my life, at age 70, I experienced a full blown panic attack to the point I couldn't breath, my chest was tightening up faster than I could spit, and I could feel my blood pressure exploding. I actually couldn't talk and it took a while to calm myself down enough to get out the brandy and smoke a joint. A whole joint.... for me, that's rare cuz I'm a lightweight.

It worked enough to allow me to function enough to turn on Netflix and put on Tinker Tailor which I've seen a million times, only because I know it ends and I knew it would calm me down enough to get some sleep that night and check in the results another time.

This has been difficult for everyone. And it seems like a million years since election day, and we still have nearly a month more to go through this hell and nightmare. All the while knowing it's going to get worse. We just don't know how much worse.

I want to try to manifest a different reality though it's challenging. And I'm heartened by the fact that many knowledgeable people have indicated legally that some of these pardons will not go unchallenged on a few fronts, and that gives me some measure of assurance.

Thanks for your feedback, it is appreciated..


ETA to make it clear, it's not just about the Pardons that have me in this state of mind, it's everything else, the chaos, the constant crime-ing 24/7 and no one, not a single adult anywhere in this country can or will do anything about any of it. That freaks me out more than anything else.

[sarisataka]

14. EOs are not mentioned in the Constitution

So the argument already has fallen apart.

Per USLegal.com:

A pardon can be revoked by the officer or body granting it before delivery and acceptance[v]. However, after its delivery and acceptance, a pardon cannot be revoked for any cause. This is because then it has passed beyond the control of the officer or body granting it, and has become a valid and operative act.

A person may surrender their pardon but it may not be taken from them, even by the person who issued it,

[VarryOn]

15. Let him have them...

We don't want ours challenged....

[onecaliberal]

16. Congress can investigate the pardons. The Rich pardon comes to mind.

Republicans are good for nothing.

[onenote]

21. and what did the investigation of the Rich pardon produce?

It was a waste of time by the repubs. We have better things to do than imitate them.

[onecaliberal]

23. Of course it was, but one of these things is not like the other.

Trump is pardoning war criminals and disgraced republican felons because they like him. He’s setting the table for pardoning himself. So yes, this needs to be investigated. If this is allowed any president can hire anyone to basically do ANYTHING and then pardon them. This is dangerous.

[msfiddlestix]

33. Very dangerous

I heard an example if a President decides to commit the act of murder or even a friend does it for him, he could pardon that person so no worries.

[mnmoderatedem]

50. corrupt intent can be investigated

take heart, this situation is WAY different than Mark Rich. The tentacles reach in virtually unlimited directions. When the offenses are this numerous and obvious, there is hope that there could be accountability.

[unblock]

17. That almost surely can't be done, but I think it's an interesting question.

The first question is, can a president revoke a pardon. The constitution doesn't say because it's hard to imagine anyone would have contemplated this.

But an argument could be made the the power to grant pardons includes the power to revoke them.

Note that the constitution tells us how the nation can enter into treaties, but does not say anything about abandoning a treaty. This first came up when shrub was president. Donnie, at least, has abandoned treaties and that has gone unchallenged.

Revoking a pardon is somewhat analogous.


That said, a pardon and revoke may cause other problems like double jeopardy. So it depends on how far down that legal process we are. If someone has been tried and convicted and then pardoned, I think a revoked pardon can mean it goes back on the criminal record, but they can't put you back in prison or try you a second time.

But if the pardon and revoke happened before trial, then I'm not sure why they couldn't try you a first time.



In practice, I don't see it ever happening. If ever it was appropriate, "crook pardons fellow crooks" would be the perfect case for it, but I don't see Biden wanting to fight that fight. He's got too much else going on.

[msfiddlestix]

32. Interesting points.

I hadn't considered the example of treaties, but the fact that the Constitution is silent on abandoning treaties better articulates my intuitive or gut level question on the matter with Pardons. It seems to me, the Constitution is silent on the power to revoke.

But in reality, I don't see Biden wanting to take this on as a matter of priority. Just wondered if it was possible to pursue.

I just watched Andrew Weismen (sp?) on Rachel tonight, and he did offer a point worth paying attention to and that is a corrupt Pardon for corrupt purposes, bribery etc. He also said it would be difficult to prove.

[unblock]

34. Yeah if any pardon could be overturned in court,

It would be a pardon that itself was part of a criminal act, such as bribery.

You'd like to say no one would ever be that stupid and blatantly obvious, but then, there's Donnie....

[msfiddlestix]

36. Exactly, then there's Don the Mob Con.

I think it was Adam Schiff on Rachel's show tonight or maybe it was Andrew Weiseman (sp?) who said these pardons are just like a Mob Boss order. Some Mob Boss's were smarter than others. Some seem to be more psychotic than others.

But just by degree, I'd say.

[onenote]

44. The US can withdraw from a treaty when the treaty expressly allows for it.

For example Trump withdrew the US from the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty. By its express terms that treaty allows either signatory to withdraw on six months notice: "Each Party shall, in exercising its national sovereignty, have the right to withdraw from this Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events related to the subject matter of this Treaty have jeopardized its supreme interests. It shall give notice of its decision to withdraw to the other Party six months prior to withdrawal from this Treaty. Such notice shall include a statement of the extraordinary events the notifying Party regards as having jeopardized its supreme interests."

Some argue that the President alone can't withdraw the US from a treaty (where the terms of the treaty allow withdrawal) because treaties have to be ratified by the Senate and thus the Senate must have a say in the action to withdraw. On the other hand, Presidential appointments of cabinet members and ambassadors also need Senate confirmation, but a President can fire an ambassador or cabinet official without the permission/concurrence of the Senate. The fact that the Constitution only makes jointing a treaty subject to Senate approval and doesn't specifically say anything about withdrawing from a treaty, together with cases that recognize that the conduct of foreign relations is principally delegated to the President support the conclusion that a president can decide to witdraw from a treaty.

In any event, the fact that the Senate is given a role in the ratification of treaties distinguishes the withdrawal of a treaty from the several of a pardon since the Constitution gives Congress absolutely no role with respect to the Presidential pardon power.

[Mr.Bill]

22. Many of these people will commit another crime

before Biden is even sworn in. They know no other way to live. That's why we put these people in jail. Their time will come.

[TomSlick]

25. My gut reaction is that a subsequent President cannot reverse a pardon.

However, I cannot articulate exactly why. It's kinda like double jeopardy but not really. In more normal times, it would be an unreasonable limitation on Presidential pardon power if a subsequent President could undo a pardon by executive fiat

Like everything else, the answer can only be had if there is a court challenge of an attempt to revoke a pardon. I favor the attempt to answer the question. My recommendation would be to revoke the most corrupt pardon that comes along and make the courts answer the question.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

26. I would dance for joy!

These disgusting pardons, it’s stomach turning.

[Autumn]

28. No he can't. I'm not bothered by these pardons, they are all criminal sleazebags who will

break the law again and they can be charged with their new crimes.

[RDANGELO]

40. The only thing that be done now is amend the Constitution,

Either take away the power all together or put some kind of check on it like the approval from congress. Then we won't have to put up with another psychopath who abuses it.

[msfiddlestix]

41. indeed. But I think I remember it requires 2/3rds of both House and Senate, right?

Don't see it happening in this Congress, unless some mystical magic happens and these corrupt pieholes get ousted all at once,

[RDANGELO]

42. Give it a year or so, I think the Republicans would go along with it.

I think that most of them would probably agree that Trump has abused it.

[msfiddlestix]

46. I haven't seen evidence of Reverence for the Constitution by the majority of that party

Maybe to be optimistic, they'll get some deprogramming treatment by then. hee hee.

[dware]

45. Yes,

2/3rds of the Congress to approve and 3/4ths of the states to ratify any Constitutional Amendment, which means, 13 states can pretty much flush any change down the toilet.

[msfiddlestix]

47. Oh that's right, it requires the States to ratify too.

hmm, well that shoots that idea all to hell. Geeze.

[RainCaster]

43. In the case of the Blackwater war criminals...

... President Biden can ask the Hague to help investigate these bums. Because the crimes occurred in a country that ratified the Roman Statute, this is possible.

[Silent3]

55. The Hague? I'd call the the Iraqi leadership...

...and let them know the US would happily honor an Iraqi extradition request in this particular case.

[PoliticAverse]

51. Courts have found that a pardon can be revoked up until the point it has been "delivered".

Delivery consists of receipt and acceptance by the person being pardoned.

President Grant revoked 2 pardons issued by President Johnson before they were finally "delivered" and his action was upheld by the courts.

See: https://cite.case.law/f-cas/7/506/

1. Under the constitution and laws of the United States, a pardon must be regarded as a deed, to the validity of which delivery is essential. A pardon differs in that respect from a commission.

2. Until a pardon is delivered, it may be revoked.

And: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/

Acceptance, as well as delivery, of a pardon is essential to its validity; if rejected by the person to whom it is tendered, the court has no power to force it on him.