It's time to rethink the single-family home as the American dream, author says

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Housing today looks largely the same as it did in 1950, Diana Lind observes in her new book “Brave New Home: Our Future in Smarter, Simpler, Happier Housing.” Many builders are still constructing 2,500-square-foot homes with two-car garages on tree-lined streets.

But a lot has changed since the single-family house was, as Lind writes, “a practical response to the desire for more space and access to nature.” Today, average family size is smaller — just 3.14 people, and nearly a third of Americans live alone, her research found. Divorce hovers between 40% and 50%, and life expectancy has risen to 79.

“As so much of American life has changed, why hasn’t housing?” Lind asks.

An urban policy specialist, Lind traces the history of the single-family ideal from Herbert Hoover’s “Own Your Own Home” program in 1918 through the aftermath of the housing collapse of 2008. She considers housing alternatives and policies that support them.

We invited Lind to talk about her conclusion that a dream primarily oriented toward owning a single-family home “is unaffordable, unhealthy, and out of step with consumer demand.”

-more-

https://www.heraldnet.com/life/its-time-to-rethink-the-single-family-home-as-the-american-dream-author-says/

[jimfields33]

1. I've lived in a town house, apartment and single family home

I will stay with single family home thank you. In the apartment, the women down stars used to play music all night. It was the thumping that was awful. I asked her to lower the base and it still was terrible. The townhouse I had neighbors that had three kids and they’d run around and I heard them stomping all the time. I’m finally at peace. They need too soundproof other living type of homes for this to work.

[Irish_Dem]

5. My condo has concrete insulation on all sides. Silent as a tomb.

I actually welcome a faint, tiny bit of noise every now and then from a neighbor so I know
they are still alive.

[Hekate]

13. My condo was made of cast concrete, but there were a lot of buildings and we got echoes

Lots of echoes of people noises

[Irish_Dem]

15. I am sorry to hear about your condo. Mine is so dead quite it is almost eerie.

I wish there was just a bit more noise from time to time.

[Hekate]

76. See my post #74 to Baine for more about that condo

I actually have visited some very nice upper-scale condos, and they were quiet and lovely, with views, even! but when I was in the market as a younger person, they were completely beyond my means. My first husband and I got ours as a starter home, but the neighborhood didn’t turn out as advertised, among other things.

[Irish_Dem]

84. After the pandemic hit last spring, condo prices dropped quite a bit.

I fell last spring and broke my leg in three places, necessitating two surgeries and a long rehab.
Docs and Physical therapists insisted I move from my condo with steep stairs to a one story.

The prices of my regular noisy condo held while nicer condo prices plummeted in my area.
So I was able to get a quiet sound proofed condo with a nice view at almost the same price as my old noisy condo.

So I lucked out, if you can call breaking your leg in three places during a pandemic good luck.

[Demovictory9]

69. My townhouse.had echos from the back where we parked

So i understand..

[jimfields33]

50. That is great. I wish when they find success they'd implement it nation wide.

[Irish_Dem]

51. Basically 6 inches of concrete on all sides. Probably not that expensive.

I was a little skeptical at first since my last condo was quite noisy and the builders had bragged how well insulated it was. NOT.

But when I moved into the new condo it was amazing.

[obamanut2012]

86. Same for me -- praise be for hurricane building standards and codes!

Every now and then I hear a faint muffled thud which sounds very far away, but is actually from my neighbor right next to me or right above me.

[Demovictory9]

67. Nice

[Demovictory9]

6. I lived in every type of housing including townhose so no the disadvantage 9f each

Was lower level of 2 story apt building at beginning of pandemic. Sheltering at home 24 hrs was a nightmare as family above was also home 24 hrs.

(townhouse) wasnt my thing either. After years of owning one

Carefully searched and thought out cuurent home

[The Genealogist]

22. The last apartment I lived in was not a happy place.

I lived in Florida for grad school, and could only afford a dump. The man upstairs used to chase his wife around the apartment, I guess beating her. The man in the apartment next door would drag his kid out into the stairway and beat the tar out of him. Another neighbor was a big old right winger. There was garbage strewn all over the complex, because there were not enough dumpsters, and trash went everyplace. Cars were broken into all the time. The landlord was a complete jerk. Mail got stolen all the time. I live in a small single family house now, and I am much happier with it.

[Demovictory9]

68. 1st floor folks experience the lives of the 2nd floor people

[BainsBane]

2. home ownership is the number one means

of building wealth. It's important. It could be a condo rather than a stand alone house though.

[Buckeyeblue]

41. I'm skeptical of that idea now

The house has to appreciate enough to not just cover the initial cost, but to also cover interest paid on the mortgage, yearly property taxes and repairs/upkeep.

I just don't see houses appreciating to that degree.

[Happy Hoosier]

48. As opposed to rent?

Which is basically money flushed down the toilet? One never ever profits from renting a home. At the LEAST owning a house helps preserve housing expenses.

[Buckeyeblue]

54. I've owned two houses and if I had it to do over I would rent/lease

I would characterize the expense of living flushing money down the toilet. You're going to have that expense regardless.

I think renting buys you the freedom to move around. And it's a good way to keep your possessions down to a minimum.

Of course, I would prefer to live in an RV and roam around as the whim strikes me.

[BainsBane]

63. Mine certainly has

but you don't draw from the equity to pay taxes, unless it's figured into your mortgage. I own my house outright, so I pay taxes out of pocket. And every homeowner has to pay for repairs out of pocket.

[Buckeyeblue]

64. But that's my point. Those expenses detract from any overall profit you might realize.

Repairs do as well. If you have lived in your home for any length of time, you would need to add up all of the property taxes paid over the years and repairs and subtract those from whatever value your house has gained since you purchased.

I just don't think most houses when you put them through this formula end up being a net plus investment.

[BainsBane]

65. You pay for repairs and property taxes when you rent too

It's all figured into your rent, only you get no equity and therefore can't build any wealth. The taxes and repairs don't come near the value of my house or its increase in value since I bought it.

[Buckeyeblue]

66. Then you must've had your house a long time

Most people that have bought a house in the last 10 - 20 years don't have that experience, give or take for regions that have really grown. And while you pay more in rent, you also don't have the big ticket items to worry about.

I own my house. But I'm not sure it's worth more than what I paid, plus interest on the mortgage I paid, property taxes and repairs.

[BainsBane]

71. When you rent

You're at the mercy of landlords, who can be assholes, especially when they don't fix things. You have people living all around you, making noise. Plus, you can get evicted if you don't have money for rent. You can't put a price tag on piece of mind.

[Hekate]

74. Agree with your points, BB, *especially* about taking equity out. ,,,

My husband and I live in a high-cost region. It always has been. The house we bought was modest & initially took both our incomes; hubby was shocked when the lender bluntly asked if we were willing to rent out one of the 4 bedrooms. We stayed in that house 35 years & paid it off in 18 years. The sense of security was immense. At one point banks everywhere started pushing home equity loans: I walked past signs that urged customers to do even do this for Christmas presents, and I was aghast.

The last apartment I lived in was clean, I’ll give it that. But rent went up a good chunk every anniversary of my move-in date, unlike my salary. The manager pocketed everybody’s deposit money, so there was that to look forward to. The walls were so thin I knew the minute a smoker moved in next to me. Somebody across the quad had quite a regular sex life with multiple high-volume orgasms. Did I want to know this?

My condo with the concrete walls that I said echoed — one night I heard a terrifying scream from a woman I knew in another building across the parking structure. My acquaintance phoned me and sobbed: “She threw herself off! I saw her — She just threw herself off the balcony!” After the ambulance took the body away I brought the still-shaking neighbor over to my place until she calmed a bit & it was time for her husband to come home from night-shift. The rumor was that the dead woman was given angel dust by her boyfriend.

Then the sunny day I was watering my potted plants outside and heard the young man who lived above us tell his young wife bitterly: “All you know how to do is get pregnant.” It was all I could do to refrain from sharing my own thoughts on the subject, which had something to do with getting a vasectomy, but I figured their day was bad enough already.

Good times. Not. I crave quiet.

Give me a little house with its own 4 walls. Please. Or a big one with lots of bookcases, which is what we moved to at age 70. We bought it from a 90 year old couple who actually were downsizing. That seems about right.

[Irish_Dem]

82. Good God, this would be way too much excitement for me.

I would be miserable there.

[BainsBane]

90. My renting experience wasn't quite as colorful

but my last place really sucked, and my aunt was the landlady!

[GulfCoast66]

72. Experiences differ. But home ownership created much of our wealth.

We bought our first house in 93. Sold it in 04 for 3 times what we paid.

Bought another house way more modest than we could have afforded in 05. It is now worth 3 times what we paid.

My parents story is the same.

That said, you buy a house as a place to live. It should not be your investment strategy. Your retirement is not based on the value of our home.

I’m a fan of owning your home.

[llmart]

58. I live in a detached condo.

Best of both worlds for a woman who lives alone and is a senior. I have a small yard where I can plant flowers or shrubs or just putter around but my mowing is done, my snow is removed and the leaves are cleaned up every fall. I still do most of the work myself just because I'm active and love being outdoors, but I can also envision a day when I won't be able to do some of that any longer. Oh, and it's a one-story thought there are two-story condos in my sub.

The value of my condo has increased almost double what I paid for it in the eight years I've owned it. The one-story condos sell in a weekend and are in more demand than the two-stories because it's mostly older people wanting to buy in here.

[MineralMan]

3. I Grew up in, and Currently Live in, a 900 Sq. Foot House.

Both my childhood home and my present one were built in the Post-WWII housing boom. Both are three-bedroom, one-bath houses. Growing up, there were two adults and three children living in that 900 sq. foot house. Today, it is just my wife and I, living in the one we bought in 2004, 50 years after it was built.

Back in my childhood days, the largest bedroom was my parents' bedroom. My sister had the smallest bedroom and my younger brother and I shared the third bedroom. All bedrooms were off a hall from the living room, with the bathroom and master bedroom on one side and the other two bedrooms on the other side of that hall. My current house has exactly the same layout.

There is a decent-sized living room and a kitchen/dining area in the rest of the house. Today, only one of our bedrooms is used as a bedroom by my wife and I. My wife's office is in the smallest bedroom, and the third bedroom, which also has a door into the kitchen, has been converted into a dining room. My office is in the unfinished basement.

As a family, when I was a kid, somehow we managed to grow up and go through our teens in that 900-sq. ft. house. We didn't really need or want anything larger. With just one bathroom, we scheduled our bathing times, out of necessity. Otherwise, anyone could use it, as long as someone else wasn't in there. It worked out OK, except for a couple of years when my sister was just entering her teens. But, we managed.

These days, houses are much bigger, but many, many families still live in those 900 sq. ft. houses. They're still adequate. They're much cheaper to build, but nobody builds houses that small any longer. So, those many, many families live in those old 40s and 50s houses. They're still managing OK. That's actually plenty of space, and tends to favor family unity, out of necessity.

[Phoenix61]

8. Mine was the same. Built in 1948.

They added on over the years but the bedrooms and bath weren’t changed. People definitely didn’t have as many clothes then.

[MineralMan]

9. That's true. Not so many clothes, and not so many toys.

The TV was a 21" set, at least in the 60s. There were no computers, video games, or any other such stuff. My current house has a 55" TV and computers and other devices everywhere. It all still fits. We have too many clothes, for sure. Once a year, we load up plastic trash bags and donate a bunch of clothing. Why we keep buying more, I don't know.

Also like my childhood home, we have a single car garage that has not had a car parked in it for years. It's full of stuff we don't use very much, along with my tools and workbench, the snowblower, lawnmower and other things like that.

There's an identical house across the street that houses a family with four children. Two kids per bedroom. They seem to manage OK, too. My next door neighbor has a house with the reversed floor plan of ours. He and his wife have two kids and two cars. They don't park in their garage either, but neither did my parents.

More space; more junk.

[Phoenix61]

10. Nature abhors a vacuum. nt

[MineralMan]

12. You are so right!

[liberal_mama]

14. Me too! When I got married, I bought a small house on the same street as my childhood home

Sometimes I wish I had a bigger house, but really I just need to get rid of my excess stuff. The houses were built in 1971 in a suburb of Buffalo, NY. When my parents bought their 3 bedroom 1 bath 950 sq foot split level home, they paid about $18,000. It was a dream come true for them.

[GoCubsGo]

23. About a third of my neighborhood is the 900 sq. ft. housing built in the 1950s.

Many of them are being bought out and renovated, or torn down and replaced with new, but equally small houses. A friend of mine bought one years ago. They have lovely hardwood floors, picture windows, and other nice features, including bigger lots than our newer homes don't have.

[LeftInTX]

29. Our first house was 1000 sq ft

The kitchen was pathetically small...No room for a dishwasher...It did have 2 baths...but gosh, the kitchen was like a tiny apartment kitchen..It had a dining room, but no room to eat in kitchen.....We would feed our kids in that carpeted dining room....(No basement) I did feed a few of my babies when they were seated inside the kitchen sink, so I could bathe them afterward...built in 1963

My cousin grew up in a 3 bd house with one bath and no dining room...built in 1960...It did have an eat in space in the kitchen and they converted the basement to a guest room/bath/den...Without the basement it was probably 900 square feet...Cousins got away without entertaining for years...LOL House was too small

Our current house is 2200 sq ft. (House was originally 1700 and previous owner converted a patio to a game room) We talk about downsizing, but we have too much junk......

[Nay]

45. This was our house exactly, minus the basement. Same exact layout. Parents and

my brother and I. Parents had the big bedroom on the left of the hall, I had the mid-sized BR at the back right of the hall, and bro had the BR on the right nearest the LR. It never felt crowded at all. 980 SF. The woman who bought it from us when mom died was the second owner. She still lives there, 20 years on.

My brother and I now wish we had never sold the place.

[llmart]

59. I grew up in one that I even doubt was 900 sq. ft.

There were my parents and us seven children. I'm fairly certain it wasn't even 900 sq. ft. My parents didn't even own it. They were always renters. How we ever managed with all of us and one bathroom I'll never know but somehow we did. As the older kids graduated from high school us younger ones had more space, but I can't even imagine how my mother managed it all. She died quite young at 55 so I never got to ask her all those questions. It may even be best not knowing how she felt about it all. When I got married I was determined to own a house and my husband and I bought our first house when I was 24 years old. I truly thought I had died and gone to heaven. It was a sprawling ranch on a heavily wooded half acre and a full basement with five separate rooms down there. Even today, I own a 1675 sq. foot condo with a full basement and two-car garage and I live alone. I sometimes feel guilty that I have so much when my mother had so little, but I am grateful every single day that I have the security of a roof over my head.

You are so right about what living like that fosters. You truly learn to share, give people space when they need it, pitch in with the chores, etc. Most of that for me came from having so many siblings, but even today I require so little to make me content. I do not accumulate stuff because I've always thought someone else could use it once I didn't need it any longer, so I made many donations to Salvation Army/Goodwill or just people I learned needed something that I had and didn't use. That part came from growing up without very much in the way of material things. All of my siblings are just like that.

I despise the trend of people buying 3,000 sq. ft. houses and they have only one child or two. What a waste of land and resources! Plus, when they were asked to stay home during a pandemic, they couldn't even abide by that even though they had these amazing houses. Tells me they have those homes only to show off.

[EarthFirst]

4. We bought a 1000 sq ft 1952 build...

It perfectly suited the space for three of us (at the time) while our daughter came up through high school; graduated and left the nest; as it were...

Additionally; the way this place is constructed is far superior to ANY new build that isn’t going up by a custom builder.

I’m certain we would be far outsized in a place twice or two and a half times our current home.

[MineralMan]

11. Yup. Our current 900 sq. ft. house has 3/4" oak floors and

matching oak trim woodwork, now covered with paint. I keep talking about stripping all of the woodwork, but that's a lot of labor. I've pulled out all of the carpeting and refinished the floors, except in one room, where a water leak cause some of the oak to be replace with plywood. That room has thin engineered bamboo flooring now.

As you say, the construction is very substantial and solid.

We may downsize in the next few years. I'm not sure, though, when.

[exboyfil]

7. I am still irritated with my mother in law

She basically pushed my daughter into getting her own place. My wife and I were perfectly fine with her staying at home and saving money.

[Wellstone ruled]

16. Nothing wrong with a 1950's 900 sq footer.

We had one for 33 years. Just know looking for another one,2000 sq ft for a couple is a total waste. Love to find one with the 3 foot overhang bungalow roof which is the most efficient house ever built.

[NutmegYankee]

17. I wouldn't give up my 1961 Cape Cod.

I hated apartment living. The noise from neighbors, the parking hassles.

They call these early homes “starter homes”, but I have no intention on leaving.

[mr_lebowski]

18. I need my own house cause I'm crazy friggin' loud ... or rather, devices that I own are ...

And I like to make a huge racket at damn near all hours.

You would hate me as a neighbor in an apartment building.

I'm real lucky in that my house is insulated KILLER, AND the next door neighbors closest to where I make all my noise are a house full of 28-ish year old gamer/stoner dudes who are up as late as me every night anyway, also blaring their Playstation games and hollering and shit.

Works out really nice for me, this whole single family home thing.

[Demovictory9]

70. Lol..you would get warning letter from my hoa

[FakeNoose]

19. If developers refused to build low-cost AFFORDABLE housing

... how is that the fault of the struggling American middle class? Most of us can barely call ourselves middle class anymore. Developers keep on building McMansions that are out of reach for most of us.

Luckily I am a home-owner, only because I saw the problem years ago and realized that I would never be able to afford a McMansion. I lowered my expectations and found a nice smaller house in an older neighborhood in the inner-city (Pittsburgh) that was almost 60 years old. Now 25 years later my mortgage is almost paid off and thankfully the property values in my area haven't eroded.

My suburban-living friends think I'm crazy. I grew up in all-white neighborhoods of the suburbs, but I'm content living in an older city neighborhood that's 50% black and 50% white. It's perfectly safe, friendly and convenient. Plus it's the only thing I can afford. I'd rather buy than rent or live off my parents, and this is how I was able to do it.

Meanwhile those big new houses in the suburbs are sitting empty and unsold.

[Vivienne235729]

57. Where are you at that homes are sitting empty? Here in AZ there aren't

Enough homes to go around. They keep building more but it doesn't seem to be enough. And the cost keeps going up every year. I don't know who is buying all these homes (I think the CA migration). But single family homes are hot commodities where I am at.

[mnhtnbb]

83. It's a seller's market here in the Triangle area of NC.

A 2000 sq ft house in a nice neighborhood that has been kept up--if older--goes in days, usually for list price or with multiple offers. New developments are selling out within a year. Sometimes half the development is sold before they even start building. The development where I've just bought is getting $60,000 premiums for the lots at the end of the cul de sac near me that they just released to buyers! It's crazy.

[Hortensis]

98. Indeed. And just where do developers refuse to build houses

to sell to a "strugglng" middle class market eager to purchase? Presumably the same places developers are all going broke.

Plus, mortgage rates are incredibly low, not "free" money but damned close to compared to what previous generations like mine had to pay for it.

FakeNoose, when trying to figure out what's happening in your area, look to land value. Is it a big house built far out from town on undesirable land that cost the developer very little, size used hopefully to draw buyers out there, or is the land significantly more expensive -- and thus the homes built -- because it's closer to jobs and amenities, on higher ground, or on the side of the valley that doesn't get the big dust storms?

[Mariana]

111. The big McMansions aren't selling very well where I live, either.

The more reasonably sized older homes are getting snapped right up, though.

[Johnny2X2X]

20. Our house is our dream house

Just the two of us. We love having our own space that we’ve made into our own peaceful safe Haven. Everybody needs their own space, whether that’s a house or an apartment, people need their own thing.

We thought our house was too big for just the two of us at first, but now it’s just right.

[doc03]

21. My house has two bedrooms and one bath 960 sq. ft. built in 1943. I bought it

25 years ago for $59k I have put around $50k over the years for just basic upkeep.
I got a new roof (insurance paid), converted from oil heat to total electric heat pump, septic system, siding,
soffit, fascia and gutters, concrete drive and a partial bathroom remodel. But in this area I doubt I could get anymore than what I paid.
The insurance company says the replacement cost is $180K. I don't know how the hell people are paying
for the 2500 sq. ft. foot 2 story homes today on 5 acre lots. The house I grew up in was 1200 sq. ft.
had 3br and 1 bath a 2/3 acre lot and somehow 5 of us got by just fine.

[Voltaire2]

24. Yeah otherwise they might have to raise wages.

And that’s not likely. So instead just convince people to accept less housing.

[appalachiablue]

46. +1 Bingo

[SlogginThroughIt]

56. Exactly!!!!

[Bettie]

60. That's the winner

tell us all that doing less well than previous generations is just fine...as long as we just expect our lives to keep getting smaller and smaller until all we have is work and a pod to sleep in.

[Hekate]

75. Well-spotted

[MissB]

25. I love my single family home

It isn’t perfect but having looked around, I think we will stay here for the remainder of our days.

The house is nearly 100 years old. We’ve put in new custom windows (fir inside and out, double hung, true divided light) and there is fir trim everywhere. When we moved in, the woodwork was painted. We prefer lightly stained fir. Pretty easy to deal with to strip the paint or replace. The 12” base moulding in the living room is impressively tall, and that’s before the top cap piece.

It’s also 2300 sq feet, and has always been. We’ve added on all of 36 square feet by putting in a proper entryway. The kitchen isn’t grand- it truly needs to be torn out but it’ll be serviceable until we feel like dealing with it.

Only one car garage, which suits us just fine. 1/2 acre which cushions us from noise. Our last house was on a 50x100’ lot and we heard allll the neighbors. I really appreciate the space we have.

[LeftInTX]

30. My son's home was built in 1928...craftsman bungalow

It is about 1500 sq ft...Large kitchen, one living area, two baths...On a pier and beam foundation (no thanks!!)
The lots are small and driveway only has one room for a single car
It's in an urban gentrified area...
It was way overpriced and the area has lots of rats and you know how old homes are!!!
The house is decent size, but the hot water heater is outside in attached shanty...there are just too many cracks and too many rats...

My other son had 2300 sq ft suburban home built for much less...

[Hortensis]

100. Yours was a pretty standard size for a middle class family home

back then and during the Victorian era, where lot sizes allowed. Not working class, those were smaller.

Sounds like a really nice home. As for old kitchens, I once posted a picture on a kitchen design forum of the wonderful old, I'm sure original, completely basic kitchen of a woman who'd just won a Nobel or Pulitzer, don't remember. She was being interviewed at the table with the work counter and sink beyond. Absolutely nothing like the expensive kitchens chock full of elaborate must-haves in the glossy brochures, but, again, wonderful in its very functional simplicity. I hoped it would cause some enthusiastic check writers to question, just a bit, their industry-driven assumptions about what they should want, what a good kitchen was, and when returns on lavish excess became no longer worth it.

I'm an old-kitchen lover and was only finally seduced to new cabinetry by full-extension drawers. Love them even more.

[Mariana]

26. Every residential project being built in my area

is either a hideous cheaply built 3000-4000 ft2 McMansion, or an even more hideous cheaply built condo complex. You can already see similar ones built 10-15 years ago starting to look slummy, as the paint fails, the vinyl siding fades, the gutters sag, the landscaping plants the builder put in die from being too crowded, etc.

[Hortensis]

35. I'm surprised. Advances in construction materials, techniques

and building codes have typically increased quality of even inexpensive new construction, even if no one believes that siding is wood.

Of course, some bottom-of-the-market "entry" subdivisions are built in unfortunate locations, such as alongside highways or other problems, so that many buyers "move up" and out rather than invest in improvements, and others can't afford to. Then their new market is those seeking used low-end subdivision, so that decline happens faster than most. You might be seeing those.

[Mariana]

39. I'm sure they're structurally just fine.

They just look awful, especially as the cosmetic stuff seems to deteriorate awfully quickly.

Anyway, my point was more that there are pretty much no small or medium sized single family detached homes being built here. They're all huge.

[Klaralven]

52. I've see houses where the only real solid piece of lumber was a header supporting the stairs.

The rest of the framing was various types of structured materials of glued together pieces of wood chips and resins.

New houses are sort of elaborate tents of cellulose and plastic. I wouldn't expect them to last.

I can't get excited about global warming and rising sea levels because most of those building won't be here in 100 years anyway.

[Hortensis]

96. Actually, building codes have become stronger and stronger,

and that requires stronger and stronger materials and techniques.

When I was appraising in Los Angeles in the 1990s, a subdivision flanked by two others, one about 8 years newer, the other 12 or so newer, was devastated by a large earthquake -- lots of empty, fenced-off dangerous buildings, some literally split apart so that you could see right through where wings were once joined; many more unoccupiable until major repairs were done; FEMA relief vans serving...who? Life was completely normal in the flanking neighborhoods on that slope backing to a giant wash, and 100% of the difference was newer codes reflecting newer states of knowledge and materials.

Codes continue to be upgraded also as climate extremes create new requirements.

[Demsrule86]

27. I wouldn't live in an apartment or town house as I have dogs and need a yard.

[Klaralven]

28. Multiple dwelling unit living would be OK if -

- the units have separate entrances and are physically isolated from each other with respect to noise, odor, fire, sewer backups, etc.

- you never have to meet or have any social or business dealings with anyone else in the complex.

Condos seem like the worst possible solution with your investment encumbered by a relationship with all the other owners via the Home Owners Association.

[LeftInTX]

31. Attached housing in Texas roaches & often rats

Always roaches that you cannot get rid of..Always roaches
Rats can also be a problem if the owner doesn't do the upkeep..

Every attached housing in Texas has roaches...

I would be afraid of going into assisted living because of roaches...

[LeftInTX]

32. Yes, owning condos was the "starter home" of the late 70s and early 80s...no one can sell them...

[Flaleftist]

37. There's also the HOA fees.

Even if you buy one free and clear or pay it off, you are still stuck with monthly fees that can be several hundred dollars.

[TexasBushwhacker]

42. That's what keeps me away from condos

You have no control over what kind of fees they'll charge and no control over who you are sharing walls with. I'd just as soon live in an apartment. Right now I rent a room in a big house. Other than having to share a bathroom, it suits me fine, it's dirt cheap and I feel safer than if I was living alone.

[Hortensis]

33. All true, but nothing new, just another iteration of a very long discussion.

Those for whom SF are "out of step" with their demand have been choosing alternatives for a long time. Demand is just about everything, even if response of supply lags.

[Blasphemer]

34. I've never related to that part of American life... I am an immigrant who grew up in NYC

My family originally lived in an extended family model so there were only multiple family homes/lots. It was a collectivist way of living that created the type of community that is completely absent in the USA. Homeownership is a terrible bargain and most people are stuck in it because they don't have access to the knowledge related to how to make a smarter investment. I am privileged enough to have gone to law school and been taught by a professor who showed us what a bad deal it is. I will never buy a house. I am currently assessing my options. Unfortunately, most cities are not renter-friendly like NYC is. I am thinking along the lines of a long-term group housing situation.

[Skittles]

61. I feel sorry for people who need oversized houses to be happy

it's very materialistic

[Hekate]

77. Books

[Bettie]

92. Define oversized please?

Is anything over 500 square feet "oversized", 800? 900?

Where is the cutoff before someone is a materialistic asshole and nothing more?

[Hortensis]

101. You read a whole thread by people who love their homes and

feel sorry for them? Because they're too stupid to know what they should want?

I'm sure you're right that some would make other choices if they'd experienced different ways in an old city in Europe, or whatever. But many would not, as we know very well from immigrants from those old cities. Anyway, people who don't make friends are as alone in apartments as they are in detached homes, while others live lives filled with friends and relatives wherever they are.

Doom-sayers claimed Boomers would crash in retirement, but overall that demo's actually doing quite decently financially, in good part because a lot of their retirement investment is in home equity, which most do eventually cash out at some point.

Your professor might have taught you that guaranteed exploding population size and with it demand for land and homes in future made home ownership a very good investment with large equity returns for the vast majority of those who purchased in a location with sufficient desirable features to avoid decline. Not many personal investments could be as reliably predicted to have such great returns as increase in residential property values. Sure the financial opportunity costs are initially high, but how many live in cheap apartments for years while saving and investing otherwise what most of what a mortgage would take? And don't forget, home investment returns are ON TOP OF, the lifestyle returns of getting to live in nice homes of choice for decades.

Hope you find just what you want for your next stage of life. It sounds interesting, and I'd like to hear more.

[Sinistrous]

36. I seem to read the death knell of the single family home

every couple of years.
I guess that is when one of the experts needs a byline.

[haele]

38. My single family home is a 1520 sqft 1970's double wide...

That we paid $28000 for "as-is" on a 60 x 60 lot. 200 sqft of that is an attached insulated "California room" we use as a storage/craft/play room for the grandkids.
Lots of open space, 2 bedrooms and 2 baths that are decent size for the huge amount of books we have, plus my home office. Four people and four cats. Of course, we have no yard space other than whatever we can steal from our carport or main entry walkway.
I've lived in townhomes and condos before - the primary problems with those are neighbors who apparently think they are still living in a single family home...

Haele

[Mossfern]

40. My husband and I are ratteling around our five bedroom house

Our four kids are long gone and now it's just the two of us and the three cats. The original house was a small Victorian cottage , built around 1890 and had three bedrooms and a "sewing room" that could fit only a twin bed - only one bath measuring about 5'X 8' . One of the kid's bedroom was a sleeping porch with siding as walls.We added on an extension about the size of the original house to make room for a lively family (we had 'high spirited' kids) and there's about an acre of property. It's a funky house that we love, and I'm a Master Gardener. I could never live anywhere where I couldn't have some sort of garden; gardening is my spiritual connection. I look at apartments and condos in our area, and they just don't make it for me.

[Hortensis]

102. Same here, though now UV and heat will kill me if they can.

But even so, some sort of garden. We all need different things, and a lot of people don't realize what a garden can mean to those who've learned to love them.

[Dawson Leery]

43. The downside of living close together is bad neighbors.

[Nay]

47. Yes, and sadly you can expect a larger proportion of people to be jerks

these days, since the former norms of politeness have generally gone by the wayside in many parts of the country. I'm 70 years old and have lived in dorms, apartments, rental houses, and owned houses; I prefer ownership, although I wish we had bought a smaller house than the one we are in now.

[Xolodno]

44. I think part of the problem is people buy more house ...

...than they need.

Friend of mine posted a house on facebook he was considering and asked if he should buy it, your typical McMansion. I was the only one that said no. He asked why, told him keeping up cleaning and maintenance, furnishings, utility bills, etc. will make the cost of living higher and he will have more staycations while we will post photos of us pouncing around the world.

And I do have two homes in my name, but they are very small.

[MustLoveBeagles]

49. I think some of it depends on where in the country you live

My husband and I have a single family home. It's a two story house with a full size unfinished basement. Construction probably started around 1898 or 1899 and completed in 1901. The two bedrooms and full bath are on the second floor. The main floor has an open floor plan with a Livingroom, dining room and kitchen behind the staircase. A half bath is just off the dining room. We speculate that the half bath and mud room off the kitchen used to be an enclosed back porch. Storage and laundry facilities are in the basement. The basement has a cellar door leading to a decent sized back yard. There's a single detached garage that was added on later. It wasn't terribly expensive as this in the Midwest in a working class neighborhood right off a major thoroughfare in a small city. It's one of the oldest homes on our street and was built right outside of what was then the city limits. It's about the right size for us but still needs some remodeling done. The only downside is that it's built on lots that are long but skinny so the houses a a bit too close together.

[Happy Hoosier]

53. I couldn't stomach living packed in with a lot of other people.

Not to mention, I work from hime and need an office space. And my wife works from home part time and needs an office. All in all, I’ll take my single family home.

[MustLoveBeagles]

55. I'm like you. I need my space.

I'm glad that we have our single family home. Half of our Livingroom is an office. It's comes in handy for remote working. The only problem is that we both have state jobs and only one computer so that makes it difficult sometimes. The state has no laptops to spare and there's a long waiting list. Me going into the office twice a week helps.

[Hortensis]

103. It's partly what we've always been used to. People who've always

lived in large homes with large rooms typically really don't feel comfortable with small, but it's also vice versa for those who grew up in cozy homes. Smaller rooms tend to be more comfortable. I know they are for me. Of course, many break that pattern, but even with them many break it all over again as they get old and know for sure what they want for their next stage of life.

[Happy Hoosier]

105. I grew up in small house...

It always felt cramped. I rarely had privacy, and swore I’d never live like that as an adult if I could possibly manage it. But I don’t begrudge those that prefer smaller living spaces or urban living.

[Hortensis]

106. When the researchers defined "smaller," they didn't

mean "too small." I don't remember a formal definition, but they researched people with incomes and lives that allowed them choices, not impoverished. Think more on the order of, oh, 1200-1800 for a couple versus 4000. 15x15x9 living room rather than 24x35x18.

And privacy is a basic need.

There's been a lot of research on how much space, and what kind, people need to feel emotionally healthy. Those faddish tiny houses and apartments where you fold up the bed to create a walkway to the table/kitchen counter fall far short. Okay for temporary, but not permanent.

[Happy Hoosier]

107. It also depends on personal space needs.

Both my wife and I need an office, so two bedrooms in our 4 bedroom house are offices. I hobbies require a workshop space (one bay of the three-car garage). Our house IS big for three people, but there isn’t a space that doesn’t see use on a regular basis except many the formal dining room. (We turned the formal living room into a library.... my wife is a lit professor and we own a LOT of books.

[Hortensis]

108. :) Absolutely. Sounds like a well-used home.

At one point I put my home office in our bedroom as the only appropriate place and was so unhappy facing a windowless corner -- and especially the utilitarian workiness that I couldn't get away from in my no-longer pretty bedroom -- that I finally stole from the rest of the family our bungalow's tiny breakfast area with windows to the back yard. Had my husband put a door that could close on the cubby and loved it.

I love my books too, nothing professional about them though, they just have always meant the good life to me. Must have room for books.

[Bettie]

62. We live in an 1890 Victorian

it has served us well raising three boys.

In the next five or so years, we'll be looking to downsize to something with less maintenance, but DH's hobbies are blacksmithing and woodworking, so we'll need some space to keep from annoying neighbors. I need a sewing room because cats are not as helpful as one might think when trying to pattern or sew.

We also want space (finished basement probably) where our kids can come and visit.

I can't imagine living in a place where other people are on top of me all the time. Just being in a city makes me claustrophobic.

[Ron Green]

73. It's fun to read the responses in this thread to see how many DUers "need their space"

regardless of the unsustainability of the suburban development pattern we’ve grown to know since WW2.

That part of the 20th-Century bubble that’s now bursting, along with living wages, higher education, surfer girls and affordable health care, was built on cheap oil and slavery around the world.

Cheap oil is all that’s left of this, and that’s why some can still hold on to their single-family house.

[DFW]

79. We hold onto our house and oil is anything but cheap here

Gas at the pump is down to about $6 a gallon, slavery was abolished here centuries ago, and the nearest thing here there ever was to a surfer girl was probably a TV documentary on Australia.

We bought our house, cheaply built by the original owner in 1973, and in need of constant repair because of it, in 1990. Despite all the hassles, our apartment just got too crowded with two children and a constant stream of visitors, so we wanted a house. We waited many years for one both available and affordable to show up in our neighborhood. The money we saved while renting permitted us to buy the house. It emptied the piggy bank at the time, but it was a decision we never regretted. I guess one could call our town „suburbia“ today, though our town has been here for about 850 years, and the big city of which we are supposed to be a suburb is two or three centuries younger.

[Ron Green]

80. Thanks for that contrast with what we've done in the United States.

A city that’s been occupied for many centuries has a much better chance at sustainability than do places in the US, built under the consumer economy.

$6 gasoline would be a step in the right direction, but too little, too late.

[DFW]

87. Our town flourished due to the consumer economy, too

Its raison d‘être was its strategic location as the half-way point between Paris and its trading partners of the Hanseatic league. Otherwise it might have faded into obscurity as did so many other settlements in what is today‘s Westfalia.

And the $6 gasoline has deterred nobody, since the distances here are so much shorter than in North America.

[Ron Green]

99. $5 a gallon deterred almost nobody in the States a few years ago.

True-cost accounting and pricing would make it $12-15, finally changing behavior.

[Hortensis]

104. Has remote working and the many other revolutionary changes

we're undergoing, including with sustainable energy, changed your notions at all about what's sustainable?

The biggest problem for me is the "there's no there there" of most exurban development, and that leads to decline for neighborhoods that have nothing to offer besides depreciating construction. The average economic lifespan of a typical strip shopping center is about a decade -- before the supermarket moves out and is replaced with a thrift store.

People should live in places that have identities and amenities that make them happy to live there, places to go besides friends' houses, beyond the subdivision pool into the community. But there is evolution that way.

[Ron Green]

112. When the suburban development experiment began to flourish,

neighborhoods were built to a finished state, and immediately began to decline. Compare that to the previous couple of thousand years, during which communities grew incrementally and were replaced building by building. Big-bank financing loved the new model, and cared nothing for the loss of human capital that was sustained by the pre-automobile walkable city or town.

Cheap gasoline still feeds the spread-out model, and knowing nothing else, most people support it - or at least put up with it.

[Hortensis]

114. Well, that doesn't really fit my observations.

Last edited Sun Dec 27, 2020, 12:38 AM - Edit history (1)

Lots of nice neighborhoods get better and houses are remodeled and replaced, typically with better. Which of course is both very desirable and part of one of our serious urban problems.

But, of course banks didn’t force people to live in ways of the pre-industrial age, even pre-age of reason ways, developed by kings, aristocracies, powerful churches on the other side of the ocean.

For better and worse, on this side of the water, almost all new towns and cities were built arising out of application principles born in the enlightenment, with emphasis on the rights of the individual.

Individuals expected to own their own land. They came to the new world for it! Whereas old world towns and villages were developed on land owned/controlled by the ruling classes.

In our world or that, though, it simply has never been the business of business to tell people how to live. Only to make sure that they could recover their money by lending it for properties that were sellable, in other words that other people would want. Not other banks.

And before the automobile, the largest cities tended to grow to a size that people could walk into the center of and out again in a day. By the time our nation was a lousy 150 years old and most cities mere towns, that dynamic was forever obsolete.

I think it’s downright odd to imagine that our urban growth patterns and problems are overwhelmingly the creation of irresponsible and uncaring lenders instead of giant dynamics of individual choices and possibilities completely unknown before. They could no more have controlled what happened than they could’ve reversed the tides. Again, not that they had the slightest right to, beyond directing their own investments by deciding to lend or not to lend.

I get the impression sometimes that some people on the left almost resent that a ruling class is not taking better care of us, or at least that they believe there is one controlling all and that it needs to be replaced with a system that controls better with a new mandate.

An ingrained need to be relieved of the responsibilities of democracy by elites who'll take care of them is actually a huge part of what’s happening on the conservative authoritarian right.

My notion is that we ourselves should do a better job, and in a lot of places and ways some people have always been showing others the way.

[Thyla]

78. Yeah nah

Nonsense.

[mnhtnbb]

81. I gave up single family house living in 2017

when I moved to a downtown high rise apartment. Loved it, until COVID. Now I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette every time I ride the elevator. Closed last Tuesday on a small single family house with a courtyard where I will move a week from Wednesday. I would have moved this coming week but the builder didn't give me enough notice of closing date to be able to schedule movers for the week between Christmas and New Year's during a pandemic! I can't wait to be in my own home again with no common hallways, doors being slammed, or the sound of sirens all day/night and garbage trucks in the street at 4:30 am.

This development has an HOA. I've lived in townhouses with HOA's, but never a single family house development with HOA. I hope it will be ok. I'm looking forward to having a covered porch and my little courtyard with a fountain, outdoor seating, plants, flowers and a place to hang a hummingbird feeder in the spring. My next birthday I'm turning 70. No way would I consider a "retirement" community of apartments or condos.

I will have a 2 car garage, and 1776 sq ft of indoor space, up from my 1029 sq ft apartment. I looked for a year and a half--on and off--for something to buy. I wanted one floor and a nice neighborhood. Most houses are two stories and have more yard than I want. The HOA will take care of the front yard and the courtyard space is up to me. Couldn't find anything I liked that I could afford until I saw these new houses being built. There are six floor plans and all can have bonus suites built on a second floor. I have been astonished to see how many people have done just that. I think my house will end up being one of the smallest in the community of 93 homes.

[ansible]

85. What a fucked up country the US has turned into

[Hortensis]

109. Do you realize that the oldest people around when you

were very young were born before electricity was available, except maybe in the best parts of just a few cities, and that death in childbirth and early childhood and sweeps of death from epidemic disease were NORMAL and expected?

And that the oldest people they knew as children were born in the 1700s? Before the industrial revolution got going and most people still lived much as they had for the past 20,000 years?

From you to that old guy who lived at the same time as you and from him to the old guys who once smiled at him in the Agricultural Age.

Maybe be a little less hard on us?

That's how long ago humanity was like a cattle drover dropped behind the wheel of an unstoppable runaway truck, when no one knew what a truck was, and forced to keep it mostly on the flats and from crashing. It's been a wild ride, but we learn to drive better with a little more control and fewer mistakes every decade, and it's one that's brought unimaginable comfort and health. And far from over.

And here in America that first old guy and his wife who'd left the old ways of old societies behind were homeless and started hacking at the wilderness -- for their lives.

[marie999]

88. Should you buy or rent. It depends where you live.

Jacksonville, NC has Camp Lejeune. Marines get $800 a month if they live off base. 3 Marines rent 3/2 houses and apartments for much more than the place would be worth 20 miles away. Also, it is hard to sell a used house, because it seems everyone wants a new house. You can get a 10-year-old 3/2 house in Jacksonville and your payment of principal, interest, taxes, and insurance will be about $850 with no money down. A 3/2 house rents for at least $1,200.

[Tommymac]

110. I was raised in Piney Green.

For a while lived in a 4 room 600 sq ft with 1 bath. Then a 12 x 70 ft house trailer after they moved most of our junk from my grandma's house. Could have stayed at the NCO Housing in TT but my dad and mom were depression era kids and threw NOTHING away. Base housing had no storage. We had 2 outdoor sheds and the mud under the trailer and deck.

This was the 1970's btw. Been back once and not too much had changed except the first tiny house was long gone.

[CTyankee]

89. Our house was built just before WW2 started...

It has prewar "bones." And it was here that I learned what a "fuse box" was! Previous owners were Orthodox Jews who needed to walk to schul on sabbath and holy days.

Our first day in the house I woke up and tried to plug in the coffee maker and the toaster and Kaboom! A neighbor told me I had probably blown a fuse. My question was "what is a fuse?"

If found out soon enough and quickly hired an electrician to upgrade our electrical service.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

91. If it still had a fuse box an electrical upgrade was probably way overdue.

A lot of old code wiring is a fire hazard.

[CTyankee]

93. Yes. That family was probably living very simply. It was unimaginable to me.

With that upgrade other things could be done such as air conditioning.

I am glad that we had gas in the kitchen so I could get a new gas oven. The old one had to be lit with a match, if you can imagine such a thing! I'm glad now, tho, because my newer gas range is a much better way to cook, and somewhat prized even!

Then came the windows which were old pulley and sash and when the rope broke from age the window had to be propped open with books!

Then we got central air conditioning put in.

Now these houses are in demand because of their prewar construction "bones." But it took a helluva lot of money to get up to modern living. Of course, you have to spend lots of money just to "keep up" with advances made in the way we live now. We had a way to go just to keep even.

No homes and no cars were made for nonmilitary use during that war, I have learned. Every factory had to be converted to war time production. So people had to sacrifice. I don't think folks realize what that generation had to just live through in order for use to win war on two fronts.

[treestar]

94. The article is about living more as extended family

things like small cottages nearby; mother-in-law suites.

I had one friend had a big expensive house with an attached separate apartment for her parents. It had a small kitchen and living room of its own.

The article is on those lines, and doesn't suggest mass apartment or smaller housing.

Or people being able to have enough land to build other smaller houses for other family. So adult children are nearby when the parents get really old.

[hunter]

95. We should pay people to experiment with lifestyles having very small environmental footprints.

The success of those experiments would be judged in terms of happiness, not by any false measures of productivity. Economic productivity as we now define it is a direct measure of the damage we are doing to Earth's biosphere and our own human spirit.

Almost everyone should have an opportunity to own the space they live in, a place where they can paint the walls whatever color they want, install or remove flooring and carpeting as they please, etc.., including people who are, for various reasons, unemployable. Nobody should be homeless. Everybody should have a safe, secure, comfortable place they can truly call their own, enjoying the benefits of any improvements they make.

This could all be accomplished by urban infill; by converting parking lot wastelands to very desirable walkable communities where people don't need to own cars.

I live in a high density suburban neighborhood that's not being utilized as it was designed. It was built for two parent families, with two or three children, a dog, and two cars. We raised our children here.

Most of our neighbors are extended families of various sorts, many with grandparents or other relatives living with them and taking care of the children while the parents work. Housing is so expensive here in California that a significant number of our own children's K-12 classmates still haven't left home. I remember them trick-or-treating, now they bring their own children around trick-or-treating.

Our children did not return home after college. Once they'd experienced big city life they didn't want to come back.

The biggest problem in our neighborhood is parking. Adults who work generally need cars. When five or six adults live in a house and they all have their own cars there's no place to put them all.

We'd greatly reduce the environmental footprint of the "average" U.S. American if we restructured our communities such that automobile ownership wasn't a necessity.

[Raine]

113. I like living in the suburbs in my own home 🏠

it's exactly the way I want to continue to live.

[pfitz59]

115. Suburbia is like an amoeba devouring 'the commons"

and all the open space where animals used to roam, children adventured and fresh farm products were locally produced. "Single-family" neighborhoods are freaking sterile zones with restrictive HOAs and covenants and squared off postage-stamp kingdoms. I loathe Suburbia, killer of dreams and destroyer of imagination..

[Rstrstx]

116. I agree with the premise

Many more houses of the future should consist of more than a single dwelling unit. Instead of the 2500 sq ft falling under one single unit it might be better divided into, say, an 1800 sq ft main house with a 700 sq ft apartment or room above a detached garage, or a 1400 sq ft main house with both a poolboy quarters and a granny pod surrounding an outdoor living area; whatever, you get the idea.

Families like to live close to each other but everyone living under the same roof gets cramped, even if it’s a big house. And younger families who may not yet need a separate apartment for an aging parent or college student may appreciate some extra side income that room over the garage could generate in the meantime. Bottom line is that people will - and should - start demanding more for their investment.

There are also upcoming trends in housing that have yet to take off (especially 3-D “printed” houses but also solar roof tiles, geothermal, etc).