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Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:26 AM

A few legal questions about this "Civil War" that the whacko right claims to want.


First, I think they're all just running their mouths with all this "Civil War" talk, but I suppose some of them actually
take it seriously.

Here are my questions. Let's say a few bands of these RWNJs take up arms against Americans, and the US government, and start shooting it up. Are they suddenly considered "Enemy Combatants", or merely violent criminals? Would any "declaration of war" against the US, and its' people, have any sort of teeth, like a declaration of war from another nation? Would these "enemy combatants" suddenly lose their US citizenship and rights? Would it be legal for American civilians to engage them in defense of the US, without fear of legal consequences?

Asking for 250 million friends...

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Reply A few legal questions about this "Civil War" that the whacko right claims to want. (Original post)
Progressive Jones Dec 2020 OP
PSPS Dec 2020 #1
Progressive Jones Dec 2020 #3
AleksS Dec 2020 #4
brush Dec 2020 #7
dawg day Dec 2020 #11
Timewas Dec 2020 #2
GrassClippings Dec 2020 #5
Lock him up. Dec 2020 #6
BGBD Dec 2020 #8
TreasonousBastard Dec 2020 #9
no_hypocrisy Dec 2020 #10
get the red out Dec 2020 #12
onethatcares Dec 2020 #13
Happy Hoosier Dec 2020 #14
Chainfire Dec 2020 #15

Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:33 AM

1. Change the channel. You're getting sucked into their fantasy. It won't happen.

Crazies have been "taking up arms" against "the gubmint" for a very long time. Domestic police forces are capable of handling such people. They are also capable of handling crazed people who act the same way "in defense of the US."

If you're prompted to ask such a question because of something you heard or saw on TV or the Internet, disengage. Watch the endless supply of delightful cat videos instead!

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Response to PSPS (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:38 AM

3. I stated that I think they are just blowhards. Just curious what

the legal reality would be if anything jumped off.

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Response to PSPS (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:48 AM

4. I think you're mostly right with a couple caveats though

We’ve never had the fringe egged on and supported by the mainstream—both media sources and government officials like the president—this much ever before.

The fringe is larger and bolder than in the past, in part due to the above.

The civil police are, to a not insignificant percentage, part of or at least sympathetic to, the fringe.

The fringe is more widely connected with each other while simultaneously more echo chambered than before, with more options to remain cloistered than in the past.

So, while I don’t anticipate anyone seriously trying anything, the stochastic terrorism of this administration certainly makes someone trying something much more likely than in the past.

But if they haven’t yet, then the chances that the 501st Scooter-borne division does do anything stupid is minimal at best.

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Response to AleksS (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 02:56 AM

7. If the police somehow need assistance, which I doubt, the Nat'l Guard will put down...

these fat, out of shape, middle-aged wackos in camo within a week in the field. Most will gladly surrender their AR-15s in a minute when confronted by an organized force with superior weapons and capability.

Of course there will be some die-hards like the fool who died in the Oregon Wildlife refuge stand off a few years back.

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Response to AleksS (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:21 AM

11. However.... Nashville...

These sort of bombings are a lot easier way to 'wage civil war' than shooting. We saw some if that in the late 60s.

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:34 AM

2. Kindness

Would call then criminals truth is they are domestic terrorists and should be treated as such and join the other terrorists at Guantanamo .....

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 01:57 AM

5. Let's get one thing straight

 

They’re not just going to start shooting. They never have and never will.

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Response to GrassClippings (Reply #5)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 02:53 AM

6. They will see the SWAT trucks fully-equiped and they will just walk on by.

None of them really want to get shot at, so they won't start shooting.

They will go back playing their video games of war the day after.

Besides, there could be police informants infiltrated among them.

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 05:09 AM

8. It could get pretty bad, honestly

Depends on a lot of factors.

This thing wouldn't be formations of rednecks marching down the road or any other type of regular warfare our military would be able to easily deal with. It would be more like an insurgency with hit and run attacks, car bombs, sabotage, etc. We saw just this week how somebody can set off a bomb in the middle of a major city center. How are the police going to deal with a network of loosely aligned cells of domestic terrorists of 3 or 4 people and a underground network of a few hundred people who are willing to help them hide? Eric Rudolph was able to hide in the North Carolina hills for years because he had local support, and he was the most wanted man in the country and we had a decent idea of where he was.

Look what one man with some rifles, a supply of ammo, and an elevated position was able to do in Vegas. Look at how much chaos of the DC snipers or Christopher Dorner did with minimal armaments. The DC guys were able to paralyze DC for three weeks and Dorner had the LAPD having to travel in protective details, took their motorcycles off the road, and so scared they were shooting at anything that went boo for nearly 2 weeks. Neither of these examples has larger support networks or used serious firepower like bombings.

Marvin Heemeyer built a tank in his garage and used it to destroy half a town before police were able to stop him. The only reason they did is because of luck. Heemeyer didn't provide enough protection to the radiator and it was damaged and he got stuck when one of his tracked fell into the basement of a building he's run over. He killed himself, but had he wanted to cause more destruction he probably could have if he'd taken something like that into his plan. It was so bad that the Governor of Colorado was about to authorize a missile attack from the National Guard, but stopped short when the tank got stuck.

That's just a few examples, but imagine if a few of these things were happening at once. Think of a situation where there are 3 or 4 snipers operating throughout the city. At the same time there are random bombings happening as well, not Nashville bombs, but smaller bombs like in Boston going off in a Wendys or the food court of a shopping mall. Or they set a bomb in a trashcan the night before and then a sniper shoots a cop there the next day. When the police roll up in force like they do, the bomb gets set off. Maybe somebody flys a drone with a bomb attached into a crowd.

Everything I just said together would cause complete chaos in a city. People would be panicked including the police. What happens when the police mess up and kill an innocent person? Is it going to set off protests or even riots in response? Probably, which would strain police further and provide both cover and opportunities for insurgents to either attack or inflame....probably both. Oh, and all of this is able to be accomplished with a group of what, maybe a dozen people?

Do police eventually get the upper hand possibly with military assistance? Yeah. In the meantime the city is turned upside down and massive loss of life and property is possible and the situation after is much less stable. Now imagine that happening in 5 or 6 cities across the country at once.

That's just one scenario that doesn't require anything that I couldn't imagine these groups getting. Basic and widely available firearms and access to explosive material. The hardest part to come up with would be planning with operational security to not get caught before it starts and people with the expertise to build the bombs. Unfortunately there are plenty of those people out there.

If anybody wants to think about it in a lot more detail from a person with a lot more information and knowledge on this than me....you should check out this podcast on the subject.

https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-30717896/

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 05:28 AM

9. Here's a list of rebellions the US, and only one was successful...

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 06:46 AM

10. First and foremost, the minute RWNJs take up arms and start shooting without justification,

they are criminals. Breaking penal codes. Injuring and/or killing others or each other. Adding other monikers to them ("enemy combatants" ) is icing on the cake -- until the military (e.g., National Guard and/or The Army) take over from local and state police. Then it's a different dynamic. I'm reluctant to label protestors-with-guns as subject to losing American citizenship as that's kind of what Nixon wanted to do with anti-war protestors in the Sixties and Seventies. Perhaps it's best to keep it circumscribed to holding them accountable for violence only and leave the overthrow-of-the-government when there is concrete evidence of a plan.

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:36 AM

12. Terrorists

Except that term doesn’t seem to be applied often enough to white people who fit that definition.

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 07:52 AM

13. after doing that.

what do they "win"?

The entire country isn't rwnj and someone has to run the sewerage plant. Bodies lieing in the streets begin to stink and draw all kinds of vermin, who cleans that up and who pays who for it?

If the rwnjs are going to form villages in the mountains and grow vegetables and have no taxes, what are their wives going to do when they run out of Nivia moisturizing liquid and deliveries from Amazon? Picture 300 "karens" walking up an interstate, dragging their kids, while swatting flies and tripping over rocks as their hubbies run around shooting rabbits for dinner. Their has to be an infrastructure to handle the society and within 4 days they'd be fighting each other about who gets what..

It is the individual njs that scare the hell out of me.

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 09:36 AM

14. They have this fantasy....

Of being a huge group in full battle rattle shooting inept “antifa” and arresting “traitor” politicians. They have this idea that the military would take their side. They would shit their pants and run at the first engagement.

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Response to Progressive Jones (Original post)

Tue Dec 29, 2020, 10:21 AM

15. I listen to these people on a regular basis

They are so ignorant as to the complexity of waging a "war" as to be laughable. Yes, there are people so dumb, that they think that a civil war would bring them the kind of "freedom" that they long for. We would describe the "freedom" that they speak of as chaos.

There are laws on the books about people who take up arms against the legitimate government. There are severe penalties available for traitors or partisan participants in a war. A significant proportion of these wanna-be patriots are over 45 years old and would make for horrible soldiers, regardless of how tough they think that they are.

There will almost certainly be an open conflict between some group of these idiots and legitimate authorities. The gun-toting Fascist will push the government to the point of no return. How that and its aftermath is handled will define what kind of country we will be going forward. People who take up arms against the people should be squashed like the vermin that they are as a lesson to their fellow travelers. We will either be a nation of law and order, or no nation at all.

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