Reality Check: This is a very serious "coup attempt"

[kentuck]

Trump and his confederates are doing everything in their power to overthrow this election. There is nothing they will not try, if they believe it has the slightest chance of succeeding.

But it is more than just attempting to "overthrow" an election. It is an attempt to overthrow our government. Call it whatever you wish.

It could be argued that Trump has successfully overthrown the Republican Party already. At least, the Republican Party as we have known it.

The Republicans made a deal with the devil and they could be prepared to get their just desserts? They have lost the Presidency, the House, and maybe the Senate? We should know by Wednesday morning.

If not the end of the Republican Party, it will be a Party that is terribly splintered and divided. But, that is the least of America's problem at the moment.

There is plenty of blame to go around, including right down to each individual voter. We had a chance to get rid of the disease now occupying the White House, but we did not put enough pressure on the elected officials to get the job done, and we are now where we are. I have little doubt but that it will be debated thoroughly in the future.

However, we are presently in the middle of an attempted coup. Too many Republicans have joined with the conspirators to overthrow a fair and honest election. They wish to install something other than a democracy. It is a present threat to us all.

It is incumbent upon us all to recognize the situation we face, in the most realistic and honest way possible.

[secondwind]

1. Well said, kentuck...

[DownriverDem]

72. Well said, but

what do we do? I am very anxious about it all, but feel so helpless.

[KS Toronado]

102. Start with getting rid of the Electoral College

Then we could outlaw voting machines, automatic voter registration through DMVs, outlaw gerrymandering,
(entire county goes to 1 district), no polling sites mail-in ballots only. And I'm sure there's more than this.

[soldierant]

120. The Electoral College -

I think it can be taken down, though maybe not in my lifetime (I am 75). But I am positive it can NOT be taken down unless the National Popular Vote Compact can succeed first - and be exercised in several Presidential elections - and be seen to be successful - or satisfying - or acceptable - whatever.

And we are absolutely not there yet. Not even close, because we pretty much have the big states already, so it will require several small ones to sign on, and the smaller states are the most resistant.

[gab13by13]

2. President Biden needs to make some changes,

because they will do this again if we just do nothing.

[Demsrule86]

14. What changes would you suggest? States run their own elections...and the constiutuion

is very clear about how votes are counted ETC. The only defense we have is to not fight amongst ourselves or attack Biden or each other...and vote vote and vote. If we vote they can't stop us. We need one branch of congress for 24 to prevent shenanigans.

We were never going to win impeachment although Trump richly deserved it. So the OP is not correct, there was no way 'convince them' concerning impeachment . Nope that ship sailed in 2016. Had we supported Hillary Clinton during the election, none of this would have happened. How many Democrats voted for Stein? We must vote blue no matter who. If we continue to 'fall in love' rather than fall in line, we will lose our party and our Republic.

[Fiendish Thingy]

15. Prosecutions for sedition for a start. Nt

[Demsrule86]

19. No person has ever been prosecuted nor convicted of sedition...and going to court...using

existing constitutional law (January 6th) and claiming fraud is probably no going to be considered sedition. The only way for this to happen is if they take up arms against the government and attempt to overthrow it violently. But they won't have to in 24 if they have Congress...so the best thing we can do is send help to the people and work like hell to keep at least keep one branch of Congress.

We really need a 50 state strategy...Consider Georgia, my sister lives in rural Paulding County. Only twenty thousand and something voted for Biden (can't remember the exact amount)...but had those voters not done so, Biden would have lost...picking off voters in counties like Paulding all over the country needs to happen. Consider that vote suppression doesn't work there because they have GOP voters also. I hope they do not award the DNC for political reasons, we really do need someone like Howard Dean in that office who can implement a 50 state strategy. It is so important.

[Joinfortmill]

26. Amen to that

[Buckeyeblue]

51. But if there is zero evidence of fraud and they keep claiming fraud...

At some point doesn't that become sedition? When does the coup attempt have to involve traditional weapons? Isn't the spread of misinformation on a grand scale a weapon?

The problem is that Lincoln should have executed the leaders of the confederacy. And the states that seceded should have had to pay reparations.

When Biden gets the chance to lower the boom on these people, I hope he doesn't blink.

[bdamomma]

55. reaching

across the aisle???? Not working this time. No not at all.

[StarfishSaver]

64. Claiming an election was stolen without evidence of fraud is not sedition

If the last two election cycles have taught us anything, it's that voting matters above anything else. We can't just sit back and expect other people to "fix" the system or act as if voting is a luxury or a tool for settling scores. We have to vote smart and work our asses off to make sure other people can vote, too.

[luvtheGWN]

71. "Claiming" it is not sedition.

But if members of Congress are attempting to overturn the election results, perhaps their very action in doing so (as they will do on Wednesday) is?

[StarfishSaver]

74. That's not sedition, either

Sedition is an attempt to overthrow the government by force. Member of Congress objecting to an Electoral College vote count pursuant to a process explicitly set forth in the Constitution and statutes for doing just that doesn't even come close to meeting that definition.

[wnylib]

92. This is how democracies die, by

one political faction abusing the system from within under the protection of using the rules in bad faith to the extent of manipulating them to make a coup "legal." Worked for Adolf.

Trump has publicly said that he should have two more years because of the Mueller investigation. Nothing in the constiturion allows for that. He has publicly said he would like to be president for life, also not in the constitution. He said in advance of the election that he would not accept the results if he was not declared the winner -- before there was any cause for him to do so. He tried to stop voting by going so far as to have mailboxes removed and sorting machines dismantled. He falsely declared himself the winner before the votes were all counted.

Trump and his lawyers and supporters have filed one frivolous case after another trying to disenfranchise voters. They have had recounts and signature checks.

He has called for a "wild" demonstration in DC by his militant followers. He has met with members of Congress and made a deal with them to sign the relief bill if they agreed to challenge the tally process on Wednesday.

The challenges are as frivolous as the court cases, with no evidence of a need for them.

It adds up to deliberate collusion between the president and members of Congress to overthrow not only a legitimate election with false claims, but to overthrow the democratic system itself.

Sedition is defined as conduct or speech designed to incite people to rebel against the authority of an established government. This is what these frivolous challenges are doing. This is a coup. It is sedition. The violence will be evident on the streets of DC on Wednesday.

[StarfishSaver]

93. Sedition is defined in the law as an attempt to overthrow the government by force

The definition set forth in the statute determines whether someone has committed a crime. Dictionary definitions are irrelevant for that purpose.

We may not like what they're doing, it may be irresponsible, unpatriotic, even dangerous. But what they've done so far is not criminal sedition.

[wnylib]

138. But I cannot stand by accepting

the destruction of a nation based on the legal definition. Yes, I believe in a government of laws, not of personalities, whims, force, or vigilantism. I believe that we must use all legal means of fighting back.

But I also believe that there must be some legal recourse in dealing with such abuse and manipulation of the system with the intent to seize absolute power, especially when we know the kind of violence and abuse that would exist under such an absolute system.

It won't work this time, but some legal changes are needed before the next time.

I have serious concerns about the Georgia vote, no matter which way it goes. It's one thing for the GA governor and secretary of state to take a stand against Trump, but will they be as firm about having two (or even one more) Democratic Senators? And we know what Trump and his gang will make of a Democratic win there. More claims of fraud and demands of recounts, court cases, demonstrations, etc.

Trump et.al. are on the edge of full blown violence. They are pushing for it, hoping for it, begging for it. When they cross that line even farther than they have already done, where will our laws and legal positions be?

[StarfishSaver]

140. Who said you have to "stand by and accept" anything "based on a legal definition"?

I'm just trying to explain the law to you. The fact that the actions we're all horrified by don't constitute and cannot be prosecuted as sedition doesn't mean there's no legal recourse.

[Cyberologist]

142. 18 U.S. Code § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, OR to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, § 1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

This is a disqualification of holding any public office. So if these politicians participate in this activity they no longer qualify to serve in government.

[StarfishSaver]

143. ...

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, OR to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

it's possible that some of these people may in the future violate this statute, but so far, they have not since filing an objection to the Electoral College vote, pursuant to a process set forth in the Constitution and statute, does not meet the definition of sedition.

[BobTheSubgenius]

115. Actually, it as least very, very close to sedition.

The only thing keeping it from being de facto sedition is what buttons they push, and how hard they push them.

Sedition and treason are rather like libel and slander. Close to interchangeable, but not close enough. Sedition can include armed uprising, but doesn't have to. Inciting resistance to lawful authority is also sedition.

[StarfishSaver]

116. Close isn't good enough when it comes to criminality

[pbmus]

134. The criminals have been summoned to Washington by the Big Con...

[Demsrule86]

67. There is no way to prove there is 'zero evidence of fraud' I do not think saying fraud was involved

in an election is sedition...protected by the first amendment. Spreading information even if it is untrue is not sedition. I do think those who participate in a fraudulent court filing like Giuliani, Ellis ETC can be disbarred and face other penalties as well. Biden won't be able to ' lower the boom'. Justice will come from the states and the AG. And some of this was undoubtedly legal...sure disgusting but not prosecutable.

[Ligyron]

59. Someone once said: All politics is local.

I would have said "are" local, but other than that, I have to agree.

I also have to believe there are enough Democrats within any district who know specifically what needs to happen within that district to have a good shot at putting a D candidate into office. In far too many districts that mean putting up any candidate at all against an entrenched GOP representative.

The problem seems to be getting the support needed from the DNC leadership at the national level.

Or so I've been told...

[StarfishSaver]

63. Thank you

[wnylib]

75. I was reluctant to believe that

the Jan 6 challenges would hold up to charges of sedition since the constitution allows for challenges when the votes are tallied. But now I'm rethinking that.

The right to challenge is being abused with frivolous claims that are demonstrably frivolous after NUMEROUS recounts, court cases, and examinations of signatures. They are willfully being made in collusion with other members of Congress and the president with the intent of overthrowing an election result that the president said in advance that he would not accept if he was not declared the winner. Long before the election, Trump said more than once that he should have two extra years to compensate for the Mueller investigation, and also that he considered being president for life.

There is clear intent here to conspire in an attempted coup. This has to be recognized and dealt with for what it is instead of regarding these challenges simply as a legal right.

[Fiendish Thingy]

97. There have been numerous convictions for seditious conspiracy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seditious_conspiracy

All criminals of the Trump era must be brought to Justice, or the criminals will end up running the country in short order, regardless of whether Dems have a 50 state strategy or not.

[soldierant]

122. An action need not be committed.

No, they have not used force, but they are calling for it. That is sufficient. Go to the article if you think I am deducing (perhaps wishfully) - it actually says that. "Seditious Conspiracy" is not "Sedition" but it may be as close as we can come.

[Mr.Bill]

135. Trump has been inciting violence

since before he was elected.

[onetexan]

65. Yes, every last one of these House & Senate members who contest Biden's win. If Dems don't do this

Biden is in office, these crooked GOP will continue these tactics going forward.

[soldierant]

121. Definitely - but not by President Biden.

At least not personally. That is the duty of the Department of Justice, and the President should stay well above that.

[Joinfortmill]

28. If we win Georgia there's a lot we can do - See article below.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-11-02/constitution-allows-congress-to-change-election-laws

[Demsrule86]

47. Thanks for the information.

[gab13by13]

58. Everyone should read your link, thank you,

Democrats can do something to regulate how states conduct elections.

[Joinfortmill]

45. Very valid points.

[CrispyQ]

109. Falling in love is a BIG problem, especially with new voters.

I posted this on FB several times this campaign season.

[NoRoadUntravelled]

130. This is a good one!

[Towlie]

3. Maybe there's nothing they won't try, but I think they've run out of things to try.

 
←

And I don't think the devil serves desserts.

[kentuck]

4. I think that may be wishful thinking?

Hopefully, they will not succeed.

But do not be mistaken. They are very serious in their attempt to overthrow this election. It is not a given.

[HUAJIAO]

6. And if not this one by 2024 they will have a candidate every bit as bad as trump but with a brain.

[kentuck]

10. No doubt, they will try.

Eternal vigilance is required.

[StarfishSaver]

66. Eternal vigilance is ALWAYS required

That's how our system works.

The problems we're facing now were caused in large part by a failure of too many Democrats to exercise that vigilance in 2010, 2014 and 2016.

[marie999]

84. My husband and I were both in the Army Security Agency.

Our motto was Semper Vigiles, Vigilant Always

[pbmus]

137. Blaming Dems for decades of repuke malfeasance starting with

Nixon and Raygun and then the democracy destroyer, GINGRICH, Bush, and the Big Con; so blaming Democrats is way too simplistic an answer...

We have had decades of economic, educational and social inequalities that have destroyed our working class and brought us to this brink of destruction.

I blame every politician who has spouted their unfulfilled promises and sell their memoirs for millions and buy their dream home or homes, while the rest of us who voted believing them are set adrift to wonder what could have been... HOPE IS AN ISLAND

[greymattermom]

30. The clone is never as good as the original.

The cult of personality doesn't allow a new leader. Trump is only about himself. I think/hope that the cult will splinter and retreat into the basement.

[HUAJIAO]

46. I hope so too...

But republicans have tasted blood..... and the sharks are circling.. Hawley, for one. He wants it bad..

[birdographer]

126. Hawley is that guy

You can see him drooling for the power of president even now. Everything he is doing is geared toward being the smart version of trump and being the dictator trump has wanted to be. The only hope is that since he was not a well-known game show host for many years, he won't have the draw for morons that trump does. But if trump supports him, it's not good.

[HUAJIAO]

128. Agreed....

[Demsrule86]

21. Stop with the fear mongering...they won't succeed this time...had they controlled the House they

might have succeeded which speaks to unity in our party and a big fight in the midterms which is where we will save ourselves for next time.

[Joinfortmill]

25. Respectfully, I don't think this is fearmongering.

[cilla4progress]

52. Agreed.

The lack of "imagination" got us here in the 1st place!

Even a cursory review of history shows that these demagogues and their followers are a steadfast and repeating cycle. No more taking our eye off the ball and assuming the arc bends toward justice without a mighty and ongoing lift from us!

I think there was a letting up when Obama was elected. Taking many forms. We need to learn, and press forward.

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

5. Yes, it is a very serious attempt to illegitimately overthrow our government.

If there is significant violence in DC on Jan. 6, there will be grounds for charges of sedition to be brought against Trump, the Republicans who are conspiring with Trump, and the Trump supporters who foment and engage in the violent coup attempt.

They should be a charged with sedition, arrested, convicted, and sentenced to prison for life.

Who the f*** do they think they are? Do they think this is a game?

Sedition must not and can not be condoned.

[Demsrule86]

22. Tilting at windmills ...even if there is rioting, there will be no such charges that are sustainable

[Joinfortmill]

23. Exactly right. They are arrogant fascists.

[Tiger8]

57. If "We The People" don't DEMAND Trump Cultists heads on pikes...

...nothing will get done to stop this because there is no organized opposition forcing pressure. That is just the mentality of elected officials.

Everything that happens in government is a result of some organized pressure group demanding action. Even common sense items won't happen until pressure gets applied.

Think of MADD? Drunk drivers maimed people and then got their license back to do it again. MADD demanded existing laws to be enforced, and new laws passed to STOP THE OFFENDING BEHAVIOR.

Elections and democracy are at stake. It sounds ridiculous to say a pressure group must be formed to defend them - but that is what must happen.

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

61. Great idea!

[Tiger8]

87. Yes Pressure GroupPopular Uprising

Pressure groups give politicians the cover they need to do take action.

People are passive - until they see on TV that "Americans are outraged that Ted Cruz, Louie Butthurt, etc. are not being put on trial for sedition." What is sedition, they wonder. Why are Republicans committing sedition? What's in it for them?

Money. Your money - and your life. Because when a democracy dies, your life will be the next to die.

[Kaleva]

7. I see a majority of Repubs not supporting Trump.

Not a single R controlled state legislature in a state Biden one has swung to his side. R governors and state SOSs are giving him the middle finger. He doesn't have the votes amongst Repubs in Congress to uphold a challenge. Republicans in Congress recently voted overwhelmingly to hand Trump his first to defeat.

[Demsrule86]

24. Thank you Kaleva. We are going to inaugurate Biden period.

[bdamomma]

60. I am going

to remain hopeful with a tinge of cautiousness we are dealing with SEDITION, again this will backfire in tRump's face and those who follow this POS will go down.

[Kaleva]

117. I have not seen Trump's support grow since the election and seen evidence that it's diminished

[Bettie]

108. They may not be agitating for this but

if they found a loophole to allow that thing to remain in office, every last one of them would quietly vote yes.

[TNNurse]

8. Can someone ask any of them on camera

if there is evidence of fraud, why was it not presented in those 60 failed court cases??? What are they waiting for???

[Demsrule86]

27. I watch news...and of course this is an unbelievable time. I have seen GOP types asked

about fraud...and the reply is...there was fraud but the courts and states/deep state are in on it. I never understand why people think that what is said on TV shows matters that much. I think Trump found a way to reach people through social media that was way more affective and hope Biden will use Twitter and other ways to get his message out. Already, I see the press more than willing to go after Biden despite the bad behavior of Trump and his minions.

[bluestarone]

85. My thought is the Dirty Dozen SHOULD show evidence BEFORE

THEY are allowed to OBJECT! otherwise they showed be ruled OUT OF ORDER!!!

[malaise]

9. Do not forget that before November 3 he was calling for Biden to be arrested

Killa Kon has been subverting democracy for four years

[Lonestarblue]

11. Republicans attempting this coup will not succeed--this time.

Their actions have been preparation for 2024. We tend to forget that Republicans plan for the long term. Here’s a scenario I can easily imagine. Either Biden or Harris will be the Democratic nominee in 2024. Republican Party leaders have now learned that Republican state officials like GA Secretary of State Raffensperger cannot be counted on to deliver the results they want. Those people will be replaced by 2024 with others who have no scruples.

By 2024, Republicans will have gerrymandered their states to ensure more Republicans in the House, likely taking the majority once again. If they can hold onto the Senate, they then have the opportunity to vote to refuse any state’s slate of electors. They have already established in millions of voters’ minds that US elections are full of fraud. Their voters never demand actual proof; they just accept whatever they’re told.

Republicans know they have no chance of overturning the 2020 election. This is all staging for 2024. And with a right-wing Supreme Court that is anti-voting rights, Republican states like Georgia and Florida will pass even more restrictive voting requirements that the SC is likely to allow to stand. That alone might be enough to get them the Electoral College once again, but, if not, they’ve prepped the stage for outright stealing the election.

[kentuck]

12. It is the damage that is being done and the destruction of our institutions...

...that cannot be instantly repaired.

Our nation is weakened by this attempt, even if it fails.

[Evolve Dammit]

107. That's what really sucks about this. Burning it all down except what they want. True Tyranny. nt

[Joinfortmill]

20. That assumes Dems do nothing. Let's hope that is not the case.

[Demsrule86]

39. If we support our candidates and don't turn on them because they are not ideologically

not perfect in our eyes, I think we will be OK. Midterms are tough for the opposition to win. We need to support every Democrat period. Vote blue no matter who...it is our only hope.

[treestar]

119. Exactly!

We have to fight for our lives, which is no time to demand purity.

[jaxexpat]

13. They don't appreciate the concept of democracy.

point in case: The very republican owner of the business I retired from were having lunch. He was lamenting the quality of elected officials (he HATED Obama). I told him that was the perfect beauty of democracy, when there is an elected figure he didn't like, he could vote against them in the next election. He looked at me like I had two heads and said, "I didn't vote for Obama".

[Tommymac]

16. I sorta blame 'The Participation Trophy' Mindset

Now everyone thinks that their efforts, point of view, feelings, etc. are valid and worth something. There are no 'losers' in today's mindset because of this belief.

So everyone now thinks their pov, no matter how stupid, idiotic or crazy it is, is valid. Hey - they came in last in the 3rd grade spelling bee but they still got a 'feel good' Blue Ribbon just like the First Place winner did, so they are just as smart if not smarter...

Even the stupidest, most idiotic, and vitriolic pov's have been given a nod of legitimacy just because everyone now thinks their pov is reasonable and correct.

Freedumb indeed.

Extreme 'Political correctness' is a two-edged sword, as we are now finding out. Without the proper educational background, i.e. learning how to think critically, it is an extremely dangerous meme that the Right has latched onto and used to it's advantage.

[Turin_C3PO]

44. I don't know.

The people who grew up with the “participation trophy” culture voted for Biden in large numbers . It was people aged 45-65 who really gave Trump the most support.

[treestar]

118. good point. And the participation trophy is still just that

the winner knows their trophy is bigger. Second and third place finishers get recognition. Just having a trophy by itself makes you feel as good as the winner does? It's not that simple.

[kcr]

99. The only people I ever hear who prattle on about participation trophy mindsets

are my Trumpy old relatives.

[Tommymac]

125. I guess I don't live a sheltered life.

I hear it a lot. From a lot of people. Of all ages. Of all pov's. Of all races. Of all genders. From all over. Maybe even from lizard people.

Did I miss anyone? Don't mean to be exclusive.


And thanks for the Trump insight, I would not know, since I have fought my fucking ass off against him for many years.

[kcr]

131. "I wouldn't know"

Good for you, winning the lucky family lottery. But one benefit I found was learning how not to sound like a Trumper.

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

123. I was about to dismiss your thought with points similar to those already made in replies to you,

but thinking about it more, I believe you do have something of a point. The participation trophy was an attempt to recognize that most did their best and deserve some praise for that, or at least ought not be denigrate as "losers." However, I believe society has to find a better balance between the stark "winners vs losers", and "everyone's a winner!"

I was truly shocked at the number of students, in the graduate program I completed with fellow students mostly younger than myself, who lacked basic knowledge and writing skills. (Even one of my professors wrote, in her syllabus, that her interest in the subject had been "peeked" by something or other. OMG. And that's just one example.) That such academically challenged students were accepted into the program in the first place and that they all received good grades and, ultimately, the degree seemed to proof of something gone amiss, though I'm sure it's more complicated than the pat answers most would give.

For instance, the "failed American public education system." I've posted about that before, only to be ignored, and I'm not going into that right now, but I worked in public education for many years and have some insight that most people who use that tired explanation don't.

However, while our nation has never before elevated to the high and mighty office of POTUS someone as downright ignorant as Trump, in local political races, it's not been unusual. And even the fact that many people voted for Bush because they thought he would be a great guy to have a beer with (lacking "AND he'd be good at X, Y, and Z" requirements for the presidency, or that people said they didn't like Obama as POTUS because he used words they would have to look up in the dictionary, point toward an anti-intellectualism that is a huge part of the problem.

And that's now new, but, by contrast, Franklin Roosevelt was clearly an elite, used a lot of words that weren't in the vocabulary of large swaths of Americans, and no one imagined themselves having a beer with him (and he had all those "socialist" ideas) yet he was elected four times.

Anyway, as I said, it's complicated. And I'm not actually in the right frame of mind to get into it further just now. So, I apologize if I can't follow up on any response you might have.

[Tommymac]

124. Hey thanks for the good thought provoking reply.

Yes. I knew I would be pinned for my original post...but you actually get it.

I have no issue promoting good feelings and I do understand the 'Trophy for Effort/Everyone's a winner' theory. I worked Special Olympics for years and saw the value a trophy/prize has for someone's self confidence. My spouse has 2 Masters' in Autism/Special Ed and I see them practice this doctrine correctly all the time.

But IMO the 'participation trophy' meme has been taken too far by a lot of organizations and people; and the original reason for doing it has been watered down and twisted to a such a large extent to make it meaningless.

[ariadne0614]

17. Each of us has a duty to apply whatever pressure we can.

“There is plenty of blame to go around, including right down to each individual voter. We had a chance to get rid of the disease now occupying the White House, but we did not put enough pressure on the elected officials to get the job done, and we are now where we are.”

If phone calls were ballots, and our elected officials’ taxpayer-funded offices were polling places, would we make a call? Silence is complicity.

[Joinfortmill]

18. The GOP has become the party of fascists.

It's not hyperbole, it's fact.

[Hotler]

69. +1,, the word isn't used enough, especially by the taking heads (CNN, MSNBC etc). nt

[Ferrets are Cool]

29. It is incumbent upon us all to recognize the situation we face, in the most realistic and honest way

And do what? I voted, I called and sent emails to my representatives. I told everyone I could to please vote. I have not marched because I have a wife at home with a weak immune system and can't take those chances with Covid.

What are we supposed to do to thwart this?

As far as not putting enough pressure on our elected officials...I just don't believe that. You can, I will not. There is only so much pressure we can put on them. The repukes are not going to listen to us. Haven't they proven that?

I see a lot of questions in your post and I always appreciate your thoughts, but I see no answers. I DO recognize the situation, but I also see no recourse for you and I. Repugs are rogues, period.

[kentuck]

32. Understand and communicate.

"Democracy dies in darkness".

The truth dies in silence.

[Jon King]

31. I am missing their plan here...

So if these mostly wealthy people succeeded then 82 million Biden voters and their families go ballistic. They would do so because with rational minds they realize America has truly failed. Widespread strikes, schools and colleges close, most businesses fail, impossible to do commerce due to widespread strikes and violence. Their kids and grand kids, who many up to now have cushy education and jobs and companies, have no functioning country.

Do they truly think had at any point the Trump false re-election had occurred the 82 million would just say okay, fine? The blue states and metro areas are 82% of the American economy. They would stop sending money to the Federal government if they had reinstalled Trump.

It all makes no sense. All these Senators, their families, their friends, their businesses....they all require a functioning America to keep their great lives going. It does not matter who the President is, they and theirs make lots of money either way.

I am confused as to what benefit these multimillionaire Senators and some Congressman would get out of destroying the very thing that made them wealthy and will afford their kids great lives too.

[kentuck]

35. That is a puzzle??

What do they think the majority is going to do? Just roll over and say nothing? Do nothing? Just accept their lies and deception?

Do they not think this far ahead?

[paleotn]

42. No, they don't think that far ahead....

They're like 5 year olds, thinking only in the moment. I don't think any of them have gamed this out past next week.

[kentuck]

48. That does seem to be the case.

They think only in the moment.

[Jon King]

78. It certainly is short sighted..

These Senators can simply use their connections to get their kids, nephews, grand kids hired at green energy companies or tech companies. I have no idea as to why they even care if Trump is President. They know how to use nepotism to continue their family success either way. All they need is a functioning America to make money. Bizarre going all in for Trumpers.

[RVN VET71]

36. Oh, I think I know that one!

It’s all about power, plain and simple. If Ted Cruz (talk about “oleaginous”) and his people succeed, they will hold the reins of power. Much of the military will feel obligated to follow dictator Trump -- and much of it will feel contrarily about that but will have little recourse to combat the coup.

General strikes and chaos? Cruz will back Trump in calling in the troops, the troops loyal to the Orange Pig, who will quell any riot swiftly and cruelly. The riots will all but stop and, except for a few uprisings by “the Blacks” and others, things will return to uneasy and corrupt normal.

If the coup succeeds, the traitors will get rich(er), the people, the “little people” will be beaten into docility, and the world will end as the climate turns completely toxic for human life forms.

Or maybe Biden/Harris will be spirited away to Canada and establish a government in exile from which to direct actions against the traitors -- but with what chance of success I cannot imagine.

The traitors don’t know what would happen if they succeed. They just know that success means continued power. These men and women are not flinching at the possibility of dead Americans lying on the ground in blood-drenched streets. In fact I think they rather like the idea.

[kentuck]

41. The "military" may not follow Trump's wishes for his "coup" but...

He has Homeland Security, ICE, and other military-style units, including County Sheriffs, that are big enough to control much of the streets if he chose to declare martial law or some extraneous legal maneuver. Nothing should be taken for granted with these people.

[David__77]

114. They don't think anti-Trump people would go ballistic in large numbers.

Just “antifa” and “BLM” which they think can easily be handled. Trump has broken plenty of precedents and they may think more can be broken. And there is the real question of what different forces would do and what forms opposition would take.

[ancianita]

33. It is. But your Reality Check isn't clear about "where we are."

Last edited Sun Jan 3, 2021, 11:43 AM - Edit history (2)

Until Republicans understand their role and oaths, they will continue coup attempts to establish rule of men over rule of law.

The #1 Lesson of the last four years -- Restructure ENFORCEMENT under Rule of Law.

Until Republicans understand their role and oaths, they will continue coup attempts to establish rule of men over rule of law.

The biggest lesson learned, imo, is that enforcement of law is structurally WEAK, and because of that, Democratic attempts to rid the (infectious) mental disease inherent in Rule of Men, were blocked in the 1st branch level, even though Repub insurgency lost many battles in the 3rd branch.

Republicans have hardened their states' controls on voters so that popular votes will be skewed and controlled in future elections.
Their hundreds of court appointees will be flooded indefinitely with suits that eventually rule their way, create precedents, and surround SCOTUS with amici written by legal teams of fictional personhoods.

Structurally, Republicans have made their party platform a person.

Now that they've revealed that, we should never again trust their future platforms to be anything but cover for the next "rule of men" leader.

If anyone is to "blame," on our side, it's those who rightfully trusted that rule of law is honored at elected leadership levels.

Scofflaw leaders create a lawless climate, which leads to the vigilante taliban-like public threat demonstrations we see in states and DC.

Our party MUST learn that it takes more than 'honoring' for rule of law to exist.

Congress should now put in writing strict penalties (eg, for ignoring subpoenas, among many others) IN WRITING, the specific penalties of law breaking, and the specific enforcer authorized to seize (by any means necessary) lawbreakers and put them bodily before the federal courts.(Inherent contempt of Congress doesn't work to change Rule of men leaders.)
Courts have proven they have no literal law enforcement capability because Congress did not enumerate that for federal courts.
Unenforceable law is no law at all.

Based on that lesson, until the 1st branch, Congress, acts smartly and fast, this climate of immunity will pervade our opposition like covid.
Because Rule of men demands immunity from Rule of law.

"We" did all we could, bottom to top, to pressure Republicans toward Rule of Law.

What I saw for four years is that pressure on elected officials was as hard as the public should be expected to give, given the economic and health hardships -- and their ripple effects on those more well off -- and the clear evidence that Americans are not Republicans' "clients."
Impeachment pressures were applied, too, and well. But congressional rules structure allowed immunity to block all our law-based pressure.

Republicans will never bow to pressure, but will double and triple down until they win again and establish rule of men;
along with that, establishing 'invisible hand" market values of corporate law.
With those two wins, Republicans will structurally do away with consent of the governed and law altogether.

"We are where we are" may not be cast as "plenty of blame to go around."
Where we are has to be clearly understood.
I see that where we are RIGHT NOW is a structural legal problem that will be the make or break democracy by 2022 and 2024.

If we don't see that, if our congressional leaders don't act on that, we will lose democracy.

[kentuck]

34. "The biggest lesson learned, imo, is that enforcement of law is structurally WEAK..."

I agree.

As for responsibility, I tend to agree, but I think it will be thoroughly debated when the fog has lifted.

[ancianita]

37. The facts of structural weakness are clear. They're not at all up for debate as such.

Our party must see that and act accordingly, never indulging "debate."

They've lost all arguments of policy and platform, and Republicans should not be given further voice about how we govern.

Until they come to heel under Rule of law and accept that structure on penalty of losing their power, no voice, no debate.

[kentuck]

43. That is why the next AG is so important.

The Department of Justice and the rule of law must be restored. It cannot be allowed to die on the vine.

[ancianita]

49. That won't strengthen enforcement unless Congress restructures Rule of Law for the AG and DOJ.

IN WRITING. And for the courts enforcement in all 13 federal districts.
Judicial reform is what Congress has to be about,
not just the AG and DOJ,
since we've already seen how they are free to block enforcement if they're ethically corrupt enough.

[kentuck]

103. Yes, when they cannot even enforce a subpoena...

...they have a problem.

That should have already been fixed, honestly.

[ancianita]

105. I think court enforcement reform might take two houses, though.

[kentuck]

106. Perhaps?

I don't know if the House and Senate can make their own rules without the approval of the other, in regards to court enforcement reform?

[ancianita]

111. Not a lawyer, but my layman's guess is that both houses have to agree on amendments to law.

Since those heretofore unenforceable laws are the original legal framework.

[wiggs]

38. They thought they could do this -- Tom Delay's 100 year gop reign -- without a coup, but

it didn't work out quite the way envisioned, despite 40 years of planning, global oligarch involvement, media consolidation, polarization and hate, LOTS of money, and cheating. But they got so, so close...and now they aren't going to give it up based on mere rules and laws and elections.

They will keep trying and there must be a plan they are following, even if it's recognized this particular sociopath won't be in the WH sometime in 2021; they want to keep the momentum going. The 'coup' can happen with or without Trump...has to do with further concentration of wealth and power not just individuals, though I think they have hopes he will remain in office a while longer (they are buying time for some reason). And of course we are talking about a lot of very wealthy and very powerful people all over the world...not just the Trumps, McConnells, Adelsons, and Loefflers.

[paleotn]

40. Turns out, 40% of our population likes sedition. They like fascism. They like racism.

They voted in favor of it in droves. They don't believe in the American ethos of freedom and equality for all, but for freedom and equality only for people who look just like them. In essence, they really don't want to be American anymore, but something along the lines of Russia's nationalist kleptocracy and Brownback's Kansas. Ironically, they're the ones who proclaim their "patriotism" far more than anyone else, yet despise nearly everything America has come to represent.

[MyMission]

91. That leaves 60% who favor democracy

Then again, believing in it and advocating and fighting and voting for it is another matter.

I live in Western NC, where our newly elected representative plans to stand against democracy.
He doesn't represent me! Neither did his predecessor, Meadows.
My town is 60/40 rethug, and that's usually the outcome during an election, year after year.
(Actually Meadows got 59% in his last election, so he missed that 60%).
I'm somewhat surprised that my 2 senators haven't signed on to this, yet.

I'm also aware that the 60/40 split you mention is a nation wide average in terms of population. Many states have a 65/35 rethug advantage. The bigger states are closer to 48/52 or closer
(CA and NY are strongly Democratic), Florida and Texas and NC are not strongly repug.

I love numbers, but they are informative, not necessarily predictive.
We need to do away with the electoral college, make each person's vote count!

[bdamomma]

50. Not to be funny

but at one time I read that they were "Putin's patriots" we have traitors in our midst, they need to be dealt with as domestic enemies.

I am still going by the premise that on Jan 20th the new President and VP will be sworn in.

The repig party will be no more, I read there is friction between Graham and McConnell brewin about McConnell's refusal to the amount of money Americans should receive. I hope the repigs are buried. That Georgia vote is so crucial to us now.

[liberal N proud]

53. Their attacks are leaving us feeling vulnerable

[ancianita]

54. Because, in reality, we are.

[bullimiami]

56. a good portion of trumps "charm" is his total lack of a brain.

[cilla4progress]

62. I found Steve Schmidt's 3 long threads last night

really interesting and informative as to how the R party plays out. He predicts a major schism between the autocrats and old style conservatives on 1/6. Members wlil be forced to play their hand - choose sides.

What I didn't see is a prediction about whether that leaves them severely weakened in numbers - which would be my expectation. At a disadvantage relative to Dems.

On edit -found this am: guess Schmidt predicts the autocrats will prevail!

Link to tweet

?s=20

[wiggs]

70. Yes, he takes this seriously. This is a continuation of autocrats rising up and splitting off, and

by almost by definition autocrats won't be concerned about rules, norms, and constitutional duties. If there are enough autocrats a coup can work...this time or next.

Schmidt's other insightful threads talk about the different groups and kinds of americans that will join the autocratic faction.

Going to be messy.

[cilla4progress]

73. Looks like he was on with

Velshi this morning.

I gotta believe this leaves fascists in a shrinking minority, yes?

I believe this move is due to the browning of western countries, with POC moving into positions of power.

Have not seen a final breakdown of votes along racial lines for 2020. Initially heard there were some pickups on the right?

[ancianita]

77. I'll read him, but he should name names. Cruz, Hawley and Graham are lining up and I don't

care what they're called. Both factions are still for Rule of men. Rule of men don't need no party. They, like Trump, can simply BE the party platform.

He's got to know that.

[cilla4progress]

81. Yes!

He calls them out in his Velshi interview this morning. Also Blackburn, McCarthy.

Relly appreciate your framing: rule of MEN.

What had distinguished us - in theory, anyway - was rule of law; blind justice. She wears the blindfold. Leave it to a gal!

[ancianita]

83. Well, until our party hardens the judiciary and structures, in writing, with specific penalties and

agents of law enforcement, media will just provide them with platforms for their horse race buzzfeed.
We must seriously use our power to never take their side seriously again, just enforce against it. Literally take them out once and for all.

What we're watching, bottom to top, about Republican politics.

[MineralMan]

68. The numbers simply do not add up.

All those Senators can do is delay things by a few hours. There are simply not enough votes in the House to hold up any objection about the electoral vote in any state. Probably not in the Senate, either, since Senators, too, must face voters in their own states.

It's just a stupid political game-playing tactic that will do nothing but slow down the process for a few hours.

There is no way to make it more than that.

[jmbar2]

89. Completely agree

Just ignore the antics on Jan 6, like kids throwing a tantrum in the supermarket. Focus all efforts on plugging the legal and legislative holes that they exploit.

[skip fox]

94. Might they not try to change the rules?

I love your settling voice but I've been listening to these spuds all morning on Fox, one representative even called Democrats "enemies," and when I see the morally challenged with this amount of self-righteous anger ("The American people deserve to know for sure" ) and demonization, I wouldn't take my eye off of them for a second.

They probably can't claim the House should vote by state delegation (because at a alternative, later stage of the same process the House votes in this manner) but it is at just hose things they are looking.

(And to those who seem to be so angry at my caution: people have been telling me I should shut up for at least 72 of my 74 years and they often say it's for my own good. It hasn't worked yet. Some people appear to like being angry and have an authoritarian streak, just like my Sunday school teachers.)

[MineralMan]

95. Rules changes at this stage are unlikely.

Stop listening to FOX News. It is always inaccurate.

There are enough sane Republicans in the Senate to stop any such shenanigans, along with the Senate Democrats. No objection to a slate of voters can get support in the House, which is required.

The Constitution is the final arbiter of all this.

There is no reason to panic at this point. The new Congress starts today. The old Congress is gone. January 6 is on Thursday. We will see what happens, but there is no reason for panic.

Fox News is not a reliable source for any of this. Try MSNBC or CNN, instead.

[skip fox]

96. I watch them all. Too much of the time.

I remember my son asking me when he was in high school why I listened to Rush Limbaugh, claiming he can't affect anything, not really. Now he's a strong liberal lawyer and often asks me what Fox is saying.


Among other things you and I have seen at least two wars which should never have been fought and multiple crimes against humanity that I thought modern America could never be responsible for, and yet . . .

[Arne]

76. Just read thru all these comments.

I'm left with this terrible anxiety that there will be a shocking event coming soon that will change history.
Again, and not for good.

[ancianita]

80. Yep.

You're not wrong. We need Plans B-Z to deal with shocking events.

[hotrod0808]

79. He hasn't overthrown the Republican Party.

This is where the Republican Party is destined to finish. These guys have been Fascism Lite for decades. No they are publicly embracing Fascism, even though they deny it and accuse us of it. For my entire life, that party has been about economic supremacy, dog whistle racism, against social welfare, against funding public education, and everything to keep common people down. These ex-Republicans who are fighting Donald Trump right now are (allegedly) horrified by him. Yet, these are the people whoghave us Sarah Palin, speeches about the Axis of Evil, touted trickle-down economics, smeared war heroes like Kerry & Cleland, and so much more that I have forgotten. The party and it's voters are pure evil, and I grant them no quarter.

[Kablooie]

82. They know there is no downside for them

There will be no retribution..
There is no law that will punish them.
They are immune from any consequences and this sets the stage for a successful attempt in the future.

[ananda]

86. I call it a manic, hysterical attempt to stay out of jail.

And it won't work.

[Jon King]

88. I am actually cautiously optimistic longer term...

Since Reagan the Repubs have been going down this road. My hope is that it gets ugly the next few weeks but then improves. In the end Trump could be the top of the worst. I would guess at least 15 million of his voters do not agree with this. They just want a stable country. So that leaves maybe 60 million nuts in a country of 330 million. And many of them are old and will die off and not be replaced in the same percentage.

The fact is the blue areas control 82% of the countries economy. Demographics in key counties in all swing states favor Dems.

By governing with stability and fairness, the Dems can secure the Presidency for decades. The deep red nuts will fall further behind economically and demographically.

The only hope is that this is the worst, Trump was the wake up call the majority needed, and we can gradually decrease the power of these nuts.

[cilla4progress]

90. I think this is one

distinct possibility.

[bucolic_frolic]

98. When this fails

the insurrection begins?

I think it will be a whole lot of nothing, but one never knows.

[sarchasm]

100. In total agreement kentuck. No telling where all this is headed.

"...we are presently in the middle of an attempted coup."

"...right down to each individual voter."

Where is the public scorn? With the exception of DU, I don't see much of it from those with the most visible platforms.

[Music Man]

101. Yes, I am worried about what will transpire on Jan. 6 and beyond.

I fear that the convergence of Trump's rally and Congressional shenanigans will result in violent protests or awful events on Jan. 20. These are armed, deranged people who have been told for years to hate Democrats.

Sinclair Lewis tried to warn us that it could, indeed, happen here.

[BarbD]

104. It's no longer just a question of voting. We need to get involved at the grass roots level.

How did we get Obama? We got it by getting involved in Democratic party politics. Understanding the local power structures, supporting good candidates, getting out the vote. It is an on-going, never-ending process.

[BannonsLiver]

110. Meh

Alarmist pablum.

Also you may have missed the part where Biden won the election.

“ There is plenty of blame to go around, including right down to each individual voter. We had a chance to get rid of the disease now occupying the White House, but we did not put enough pressure on the elected officials to get the job done, and we are now where we are.”

Uh, voters did just that in November. You can get caught up on all that via the google machine.

[BobTheSubgenius]

113. It may well come to nothing. In fact, I'm certain of it.

But that doesn't change the fact that a significant number of elected officials are going along with the attempt. What if this becomes the template for a more able group of conspirators? Squashing it hard is the only avenue worth travelling.

[Ford_Prefect]

112. Tell it to the MSM and after that you might light a fire under our DLC leaders.

The ones who feel we should be careful not to bruise our Republican cohorts.

They have effectively declared war on Biden's administration and on federal and state election officials. They knowingly lie about this. It is not a difference of opinion about whether to buy new bombers or fund education. They assert based on hearsay and innuendo that up is down, black is white, and that they are the only responsible people who can determine a US presidential election.

[Pepsidog]

127. I have heard about the demise of the Rs since Bush yet they still are in power and do what they want

and get away with it. Just look at the judiciary and if Dems don’t take the Senate I fear Biden will be handcuffed. Look at Never Trumpers who have taken the fight against Trump. We need to learn to communicate like our ideas like Rs.

[colsohlibgal]

129. This Party Has Gone Crazy

At least a good deal of them.

Just think, no Electoral College no Dubya no Trump. All those dead soldiers from Iraq would be here, kids wouldn’t have been held in cages,etc.

[burrowowl]

133. Kick!

[srobertss]

139. I'm less worried than I was

I was worried by the various accounts of this call, not to mention the 10 former secretaries of defense issuing their warning. My head started pounding in pain. But then I listened to a few clips and he sounded weak to me. Then I listened to the last 10 minutes. He sounded like a 5 year old. I think his aides are just trying to help him slump along to the end and no one really believes this will go anywhere. Even if he tries to use the military, from what I’ve seen, the courts are not going to support him on that. I feel a lot better. Make no mistake, I realize there is a huge portion of his base who are completely taken in by this and that in itself is dangerous. But I still have an image of him depicted as an hour glass with his face in the top half being drained by time into the bottom. I think his base will disperse with him. And none of these sycophant Republicans have the ability to galvanize these poor souls like he did.

[Cyberologist]

141. Umm this is not an attempt, this is a straight up coup

And what gets me is Democrats tried to get three election security bills passed for years and Mitch wouldn't bring them to floor, they're still on his desk. Yet now repubs turn around to accuse with baseless accusations against. Hypocrisy

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/482569-senate-gop-blocks-three-election-security-bills

[Bernardo de La Paz]

144. kentuck knew what he was talking about. . . . nt