So what if Pence does decide that he won't open and read certain state electors

[Proud liberal 80]

I knew that Trump and his allies were going to try to do something, and when I read Gohmert’s lawsuit I knew this was it.....so it Pence does standup and say ‘I will not read Pennsylvania’s elector votes’, what happens?....does Biden sue him in federal court? Which he the decision would be inevitably appealed to SCOTUS, and I still don’t trust SCOTUS....and all this will delay the process and creating drama

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

1. OAN saying pence will postpone

I know it's bullshit but omg

[obamanut2012]

7. Postpone WHAT?

There is nothing he can postpone, nor Congress.

[Thekaspervote]

23. As someone else said he is the Vanna White of the electoral vote count

[obamanut2012]

42. Exactly -- he opens the Emmys envelope for Best Miniseries

[Demsrule86]

16. He can't. If he doesn't do it then Grassley will.

[CanonRay]

36. ...and if Grassley won't do it?

[Demsrule86]

53. No Grassley won't. He is not objecting and is retiring.

[Polybius]

63. Has he announced his retirement?

Last I heard he was still deciding.

[Demsrule86]

83. I read he was retiring but I don't remember where I saw it.

[beachbumbob]

2. its an administrative function, I just don;t see Pence as a traitor or Grassley. VP sole purpose is

to open the envelopes, NOT determine validity or not, Its clear under the rules that establishes the procedure

[Eyeball_Kid]

8. If Pence refuses to open envelopes, he is violating the Constitution. Legally, he has no choice.

The Constitution is exceedingly clear in this regard. Trump is demanding that Pence violate the law. Pence has a choice to make. Any action other than what is defined in the Constitution makes Pence a co-conspirator in the commission of a crime. He will not escape justice.

For Pence's public and political future, he must abandon Trump. As Trump's VP, Pence's future is already damaged. Any action that connotes that he's a co-conspirator will strip him of any gravitas that he might have remaining, not to mention an opening to criminal liability.

[Mike 03]

13. But you're thinking like a normal human being living in a functioning Democracy.

For Pence's public and political future, he must abandon Trump.

Pence is thinking, "For my political future, I must not be seen as abandoning Trump."

[StarfishSaver]

56. If he doesn't open them, someone else will.

Problem solved.

[exboyfil]

15. So what US Code are we talking about if he doesn't do it

No one could imagine that this could happen. I mean the Supreme Court can order him to do it if the Democratic House and Senate members sue.

[beachbumbob]

17. the stock market will tell him

[StarfishSaver]

58. If he doesn't open them, someone else can and will

The Constitution requires him to open the envelopes. But it doesn't prohibit anyone else from opening them.

[CanonRay]

38. Since when has "legally" mattered to this administration?

They break the law ten times a day. Unless we're willing to back it with force if necessary, the Constitution isn't worth the parchment it it's written on. It survives by willing acceptance, which apparently we not longer have.

[David__77]

3. My thought.

First of all, there will and must be a transition on 1/20. Under the most freakish of circumstances, if there were supposedly to be a contingent election due to some illegal actions of Pence, the House must not convene to take such a vote. Rather, the terms of the current president and vice president end on 1/20, and Pelosi is next in line.

If Pence tries to delay, this is refusal to perform duties and the demand must be for McConnell to allow the next in line (I think Grassley) to preside. While I think Supreme Court would take the right action on this front, I would not count on that to be a full solution.

[Mike 03]

6. Maybe this explains the "confusion" this morning over Grassley possibly presiding.

This might be a staged event, where Pence makes a scene and Grassley steps in (but totally set up in advance) so that Pence doesn't disappoint Trump, but the job gets done. So that Pence can walk away with the appearance he stood up for Trump and not incur the wrath of the Trump fanatics.

Pence relinquishes his responsibilities "on principle" and Grassley does the dirty work.

[beachbumbob]

21. grassley is not a traitor and I see no way he would want to have his name go down in history like

trump's name, along with Benedict Arnold.

This is all hype pushed by media for veiwership

[Mike 03]

25. That's what I'm saying. Grassley will do the right thing after Pence does the wrong thing. NT

[beachbumbob]

28. yep, I have a hard time thinking Pence simply not do his job

he hates trump and all trump stands for as much as the rest of rationale america does

[Mike 03]

32. I truly hope you're right.

That confusion this morning over Grassley possibly presiding got me to thinking about a staged event where Pence found some excuse not to do his duty, to save face with the Trump supporters. He's in a no win situation (not that I care about Pence being in a difficult situation).

[Mike 03]

33. I would do anything in my power to prevent a scene tomorrow.

I think it's going to be one of the saddest and ugliest chapters in American history. In a way, it already has been.

[Demsrule86]

57. There will be scene...count on it all for an audience of one...Trump. But Biden will win.

Trump is still pressuring Pence which mean thus far, Pence has refused. Trump and Pence are lunching together today.

[niyad]

41. Not a traitor? Grassley was one of the 47 puke senators who signed the Iran letter.

[Demsrule86]

54. This is not the same thing...these post merely scare people tomorrow Joe Biden will be declared the

winner.

[David__77]

35. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Some sort of theater because I doubt that the Trumpist core really wants to be "forced" to purge Pence -after all, Trump picked him and has praised him to the skies. Nonetheless, we get Trump's stream of consciousness on Pence, including Trump's doubts that he will do what Trump wants/likes.

[Grasswire2]

50. technically...

Manafort picked Pence.

[Dem4Life1102]

4. He can't

He doesn't have the power to do so. His role is purely ceremonial. The only power he would have is if a Senator and a Representative object to a slate of electors, when the Senate votes to accept the electors, after 2 hours of debate, if the vote is 50-50 then Pence would cast the deciding vote. But the vote won't be 50-50. Several GOP Senators have all ready stated they don't approve of the effort to object to the electors. And even if they did the House would have to not accept those electors either which is not going to happen.

[Proud liberal 80]

9. I understand that he 'can't'

My question is if he does it anyway....who stands up and says you can’t or what is the process to get him to comply?

[Dem4Life1102]

14. It doesn't matter what he does or says

It is simply something that he has no power to do.

[mr_lebowski]

27. Not sure you're understanding the question ...

He may not have 'the power', but he could still do it, because his body is physically capable of it.

What happens then?

[Dem4Life1102]

29. Nothing happens then

He has no power to do that. The tellers will still count the electors from each state.

Read this and learn something: https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32717.pdf

[mr_lebowski]

31. His not being able to stop the process by not doing it himself is different from him not doing it

himself.

On behalf of the person who was asking, thanks!

[Polybius]

66. What the poster is trying to ask (I think), is what if he says "FU, I refuse to open the letter"

You can't force his body to open something he refuses to do. Would the job of opening then go to someone else?

[marie999]

75. Yes

[honest.abe]

22. I guess McConnel would assign the next in line which is Grassley from what I have heard.

It would be rather absurd situation that I think Pence would not want to be part of. I think he will go ahead and do it.

[Turin_C3PO]

5. His role is basically ceremonial.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

10. The word in the Constitution is "shall."

He has no choice. It will be done tomorrow.

[NutmegYankee]

18. Might take until the 7th.

If the AFP objects to all 6/7 states they plan to object to, it may take 2 full days.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

20. That I would agree with

but that's just giving time for the stupid objections. All of the votes are tallied first, though, and Pence can't just decide to not tally some of the states. The objections come after all of the votes are registered.

But, yeah, they could drag out the objections for a day or so.

[beachbumbob]

24. depends on rules, like in another post here, aren;t "alternate slate of electors" needed? to contest

[NutmegYankee]

30. No.

Objections can be made that the electoral votes were not lawfully certified and regularly given. A frivolous claim, but it can be done.

We should seek to change this law to eliminate this process in the future. It is dangerous if one party gets control of Congress and doesn't care about Democracy.

[Demsrule86]

59. However, unless the House and the Senate agree on this...the certified electors are counted ...

period. Biden will be president tomorrow and sworn in on January 20th.

[NutmegYankee]

70. I have no doubt on the outcome this time.

But the future could be scary.

[Demsrule86]

62. Possibly...if they do all the states separately but I hear that they real all the states' names

and they ask for an objection. In which case it would be over in two hours...take about 14 if they do six states...I doubt the Senate would anyway. The House GOP are of course loons.

[honest.abe]

11. If Pence simply refuses to open the envelopes, I assume someone else will do it... Grassley I guess.

I dont think Pence can legally stop the process.

It's ridiculous we have to deal with this nonsense.

[beachbumbob]

26. the nonsense is all placed out here by media and talking heads

[greenjar_01]

37. And Internet trolls

Ahem...

[jcgoldie]

47. ....

Scans to top of page....

[StarfishSaver]

55. This is ridiculous

As is all of the hand-wringing.

The Constitution says that the President of the Senate "shall, in the Presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the Certificates, and the Votes shall then be counted." But it doesn't restrict the opening of the envelope to the vice president. Anyone can open the envelopes if he doesn't.

Sheesh

[honest.abe]

69. I agree but there is a somewhat legitimate question here.

What is process if Pence decides to not show or refuse to open the envelopes? From what I understand McConnel then has to appoint someone which I understand would be Grassley. I agree this is all ridiculous nonsense but we are dealing with lunatics on the other side so I think its fair to consider the crazy possibilities.

[StarfishSaver]

73. It's not really complicated

If Pence doesn't show, someone else presides and acts as President of the Senate - "president of the Senate" isn't a title attached to any particular individual, but describes the person who is presiding. The vice president is usually the presiding officer, but if he's not there, whoever is designated to preside is the president.

So, If Pence doesn't show up, someone else will be designated to preside and open the envelopes. If he does show up but doesn't open the envelopes, someone else will designated to open them. While the Constitution requires the president of the Senate to open the envelopes, there is no requirement that the envelopes be opened only by the president. Anyone can actually open them, even if Pence refuses to fulfill his obligation.

[honest.abe]

74. In fact its probably even less complicated than that.

Pence will likely realize all of this is futile and just do his job and open the damn envelopes!

[StarfishSaver]

77. Yep!

[Demsrule86]

12. Then Grassley will do it.

[Mike 03]

19. I think Pence will save his skin by refusing "on principle" to do his duty but immediately

turn it over to Grassley to do it, so it won't blow up into a legal issue. It will just be for show and a totally staged act of defiance that has no meaning except allows Pence to have his cake and eat it too.

If that happens it is a face-saving thing so that Pence is seen by Trump supporters as not betraying Trump, but it doesn't stop the process.

[Goonch]

34. ;-{)

[CanonRay]

39. Some of us here still aren't thinking outside the box

Things are not normal. There is no box. Trump has destroyed all that. They can, and probably will, do anything they want. I'm very worried and those that say it's over, I think are practicing wishful thinking.

[David__77]

44. I think it's reasonable to be concerned about potential negative impacts of fear, panic, etc.

At the same time, I absolutely hope that people in positions to act have prepared for all sorts of possibilities, including how to respond to and defeat illegal actions of the Trumpists. Nothing should be "surprising," in any way.

[Demsrule86]

64. There is a box and despite Trump's best efforts our courts and election people held...there is

a clearly constitutional way to count the votes...and Nancy and Mitch have already settled their version.

[apnu]

40. If Congress fails to certify the election, then Pelosi will be President on Jan 20.

If Congress fails to certify the election by Jan 20, the POTUS and VP terms automatically expire and since there is no-one who can legally take the oath of office (Biden and Harris), POTUS line of succession kicks in and Pelosi becomes #46.

[StarfishSaver]

60. Congress doesn't certify the election. It's already been certified

And Pence cannot prevent Congress from accepting the certifications.

As soon as the envelopes are opened - by Pence or anyone else - and the count recorded - Biden's election is officially declared and, unless both chambers of Congress vote to reject the count, he will become president at noon on 1/20, regardless what anyone else says or does.

[apnu]

79. Congress can still f this up.

I’m just saying. If Congress fails this in any way and can’t fix it before Jan 20, Pelosi is POTUS now that she is Speaker again.

It is unlikely this will happen, but it is not 0 either.

[StarfishSaver]

80. Stop

It's not 0 that the world will end tomorrow or Biden will turn out to be a secret Trumper, either. But this kind of "what ifs" are waste of time and very tiresome

[Demsrule86]

65. The votes for biden are certified...and will be counted whether it take two hours or fourteen.

[niyad]

43. Maybe white satan will develop a sudden attack of the flu.

[Sogo]

45. If he doesn't open and count certain state electors,

then there is nothing for the radicals to object to....

The count takes place first; then comes the objections.

[Ferrets are Cool]

46. What if the Earth stops revolving?

It is not worth worrying over, IMO. It's not like WE THE PEOPLE can do even ONE thing to affect what Pence does.

I have more important things to "worry" about. But, that's just me.

[Demsrule86]

48. He will be ruled out of order.

[StarfishSaver]

49. What if the sky falls tomorrow?

We can what if til the cows come home - which you do seem intent on doing - but that's not going to change what is and what will be.

[GemDigger]

51. He didn't have the courage about trump, he will have even less courage if he has

to deal with the masses. For once, he will do his job and do it correctly.

If not, I will learn to drink and get drunk and it will last until .... who knows when.

[jcgoldie]

67. Learning to drink is easy...

Becoming a professional takes years of dedication and practice!

[LiberalFighter]

52. If he refuses to have them open and read them.

And the task is not performed.

Speaker Pelosi becomes President on 1/20/21

[StarfishSaver]

61. No.

If he refuses to open them, someone else can and will open them. He is irrelevant to the process.

[Demsrule86]

71. +1000000

[Demsrule86]

68. That will not happen. And I promise you the GOP isn't going to let that happen...first of all

just for argument's sake, do you think they would do this and allow Pelosi to be president...no. They would alter this...if they can defy the constitution with counting what would stop them from going all out including altering the succession...None of that will happen. The votes will be counted and Biden will be announced as the winner.

[lindysalsagal]

72. Anyone refusing to do their job is effectively quitting. They should resign.

[sarisataka]

76. Funny, in 230 years of elections

No incumbent has realized all it takes to win is have his VP not count the other guy's votes.

I wish Carter and Mondale were as smart as Trump and Pence- we would never have been subjected to Reagan

[csziggy]

78. The procedure is spelled out in detail in this document

Counting Electoral Votes: An Overview of Procedures at the Joint Session, Including Objections by Members of Congress
Updated December 8, 2020

Congressional Research Servicehttps://crsreports.congress.go

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32717.pdf

Page 3 of the report (page 6 of the PDF) goes through how the President of the Senate opens the vote and cites the laws that apply to each step of the procedure.

Everyone here should read this and most of their questions will be answered, at least the ones regarding normal ways of doing it. What the RWNJs will do is not predictable.

[struggle4progress]

81. The Constitution isn't a suicide pact: Pence can't stop everything

by refusing to perform his entirely ceremonial duty

[LanternWaste]

82. Nothing of consequence will happen. Absolutely nothing of consequence or note.

And talking about "creating drama..." may be a thing you yourself should heed.