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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsGreek Prime Minister Warns of Societal Collapse Like Weimar Germany; Citizens Storm Defense Ministry
Greece is politically and economically bankrupt. Unemployment is 24.4% and destined to get much worse with the latest round of austerity measures...Today, Antonis Samaras, the Greek Prime Minister warns of societal disintegration without urgent financial aid...
Antonis Samaras says Greece's democracy is in danger, comparing situation to Germany's pre-war Weimar Republic...Almost three years after the eruption of Europe's debt drama in Athens, the economic crisis engulfing the nation has become so severe that democracy itself is now imperiled, Antonis Samaras said.
Resorting to highly unusual language for a man who weighs his words carefully, the 61-year-old politician evoked the rise of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party to highlight the threat that Greece faces, explaining that society "is threatened by growing unemployment, as happened to Germany at the end of the Weimar Republic"...
The unprecedented storming of Greece's defence ministry by hundreds of protesting dockworkers on Thursday – a breach of security not seen in modern times – has especially unnerved officials. On Friday, Samaras lashed out at "those who don't understand the meaning of law and order".
Read more at http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/10/greek-citizens-storm-defense-ministry.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MishsGlobalEconomicTrendAnalysis+%28Mish%27s+Global+Economic+Trend+Analysis%29#o1VyhhFO5LUIjcI8.99
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Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Yes, there would be pain. But would it really be that much worse than what they are experiencing now?
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)They only got into the Euro by deceit and misrepresentation. It was doing so which gave them the ability to attract loans and issue bonds at relatively low rates. Subsequent poor management of meeting their financial obligations led to this mess - using further loans to payback earlier debt.
Some of the debt they can walk away from but not that which is now secured against state owned assets.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)What is Germany or whoever owns that debt going to do? Come in with an army to seize it?
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Earlier financial instruments were unsecured in that way inasmuch they covered by Greek Law. As far as I'm aware all transactions , some of which were used to settle earlier debt are now secured. In the absense of that being so I doubt they would have accessed further funds and would already be down the tubes.
English law set to rule new Greek bonds. 15 Jan 2012
“The request from our creditors that the new bonds be governed by English law has not been accepted,” Prime Minister Lucas Papademos declared on December 2, speaking to the parliament. A month later, tough negotiations on the private sector involvement (PSI) deal are reportedly forcing the Greek government to cross this red line and accept the issuance of the new bonds under English law, satisfying a key bondholder demand and depriving Greece of a great advantage over its creditors.
Lee Buchheit, a partner at international law firm Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton that acts as an advisor to the Greek government on the PSI, had written a few months ago that “by far the greatest advantage that Greece would enjoy in a restructuring of its debt derives from the fact that so much of the debt stock is expressly governed by Greek law (90 percent or more).”
In a paper entitled “Greek debt: The endgame scenarios”, Buchheit, one of the most prominent lawyers globally in debt restructuring cases, said that that “the restructuring could be facilitated in some way by a change to Greek law”.
If English law is applied to the new bonds issued under the complex PSI, the Greek side would have to face the following consequences:
Property confiscation: According to international law as well as many national legal systems, when a property is located within the jurisdiction of the legislating state, the latter has the power (de facto or by law) to nationalise or transfer property without compensation. The Wall Street Journal reported on January 5 that “Greece has agreed to consider that the new bonds be governed by English law, which means creditors would be allowed to seize Greek assets if the country fails on its payments”.
http://www.athensnews.gr/issue/13478/52264
The outcome was that the debt was made subject to "English Law" if not satisfied may eventually have the resultant effect of privatising their public utilities. .
Finland was pulled into the Euro by deceit and misrepresentation. Euro and euro-elite is deceit and misrepresentation without democratic legitimacy.
You are repeating the lies of euro-elite, the purpose of which is to turn peoples of Europe against each other by nationalistic divides, so that they don't unite against their real enemy: IMF, the euro-elite, banks and their sock-puppet political leaders.
Greece as in Greek people is not the same as Pasok and ND, two political parties totally corrupt, owned by banks and now bankrupt.
There is no legal procedure for any EU-member leaving euro. But of course the euro-elites are not acting according to their own illegitimate treaties but are threatening Greece with something "even worse" is they don't obey IMF. There is no "law and order" in EU, the social contract has been broken by neoliberal predators.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)there is no mechanism for a country to leave the Euro. I doubt that possibility was ever foreseen. It may well be that a country would be made to leave the EU itself to achieve that which may be an outcome with regards Greece.
I didn't say it hadn't happened elsewhere so your point about Finland is incidental but since you raised the subject please quote similarities whereby Finland currently has the same issues of mismanagement as Greece.
The actual issue is more Germany than the IMF.
tama
(9,137 posts)but it's the same story everywhere: authoritarian neoliberal mismanagement by corrupt political parties. In Finland people demanded practically with one voice a referendum over joining euro, the elite refused being afraid that people would have voted against it - as happened in Sweden. Same with neoliberal Lissabon treaty. In last elections majority of people voted against the euro bank bailouts, but as usual the "liberals" (aka social dems) betrayed the people and sold out. However, Finnish parliament cannot totally ignore the mood and as it is the only EU-member parliament that has actual say over EU matters, the parliament has been blatantly lied to about very significant details about the new euro bailout mechanisms. That detail showed what this is all about. Most important in the bailout mechanisms is that IMF, which is controlled by US, gets its money back first over everybody else. That was not put under question by any of the elites. The big lie was that EU-member states (ie. taxpayer money) would get their money back second after IMF, but in reality EU institutions have freedom to decide that private capital gets its money back before taxpayers.
In short, more austerity for people in all EU countries, more money from people to IMF and banks. That is the real issue and it has nothing to do with difference in individual member states, people everywhere are being robbed by IMF and banks.
Of course there are nationalistic right wing forces that are taking advantage of the situation and try to build authoritarian fascist and xenophobic movements. I'm sorry that you fall for that nationalistic narrative by elites and corporate media that pretends to oppose nationalistic xenophobic forces but in fact keeps on pouring oil to the flames. Ms Merkel and her right wing government is NOT Germany, German people are. And lately German people have been voting AGAINST Merkel.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)from the Greedy, Austerity Morons who are still, despite what a failure they have been, running things over there.
Iceland made a wise decision and had nothing to do with their stupid, save-the-wealthy-Shock Doctrine thieves and crooks and their puppets in the IMF, the World Bank and Brussels.
There needs to be PROSECUTIONS and a way to get back the money they gambled away.
What has happened to Greece is TRAGIC! An invading army, (which this is, an economic invasion, the new conquering armies) could not have done more harm and at least they could have fought back.
Parents are giving up their children because they cannot feed them. And the children's shelters are running out of money.
And the Wealthy Greeks are pouting and threatening to leave the country if anyone tries to make them pay their fair share of taxes.
Is there anyone in charge of anything, anywhere, who cares about PEOPLE and doesn't just see them as a commodity to be bargained away or used and abused?
Next up is Spain and Italy and Ireland etc.
Is there anything in history to compare to the total, massive, incredible failure of those responsible for all this, who are STILL in charge?
This is so sad, it was so unnecessary, it is like a repeat of what caused the French Revolution.
And still, not one of the main perpetrators have been charged with a crime.
tama
(9,137 posts)from ordinary citizen point of view it's good to avoid currency exchange at borders. Common currency per se is not the problem.
The real issue is how currency is created and who controls it. Return to national currencies is not solution as long as they are not under democratic control, and force working class to compete against each other according to feudal currency divides.
That can't continue. I'm OK both with socialist revolution in EU, democratization of common currency etc. And/or total dissolution of state apparati and direct transition to anarchy, without the socialist interlude. I'm not that picky. 
pampango
(24,692 posts)Below is a May 2012 Pew poll.
By a 71%-23% margin Greeks favor keeping the euro over returning to the drachma. They are more committed to the euro than any other eurozone country. Go figure.
That certainly does put Greek politicians in a tough spot, since leaving the euro makes the most economic sense for the country.
tama
(9,137 posts)does not require leaving euro. What it might lead to, as other countries followed the example, could be something similar as in Iceland. Or something even more radical.
That said, what really makes most economic sense for Greek people is building new sustainable economy, based on social and natural capital instead of financial capital, at the grass roots level - without parasitical state structure.
tama
(9,137 posts)And Greek people get the meaning of "law and order" all too well. That is why they don't stay under but stand up and fight fascism. The fascism of IMF, ECB, EC, fascism of Greek Government, fascism of Golden Dawn and police thugs.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)A United States of Europe! So there will never be another war there! Unfortunately, they did not fully think through the implications of a single currency. And Greece was desperate to sign up to the Euro and so was all to eager to fudge the math, with the help of the investment banks, so that they could pretend to be eligible even though they didn't really qualify.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)in europe. My Italian relatives are having problems in the southern part of Italy. My one cousin is only working 2 days a work and is having a real hard time finding full time work. He is looking all the time. I hope your right. I feel so bad for the people of Greece. They are such a great people and now having to struggle really hard.
tama
(9,137 posts)But as said, last resort of capitalism is openly fascist nationalism so the risk cannot be totally excluded. And all who keep repeating the divisive nationalistic propaganda play in the hand of fascism and war.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)was sound and pragmatic realism to avoid another global European war. But the social model was not resistant enough to Anglo-American neoliberalism, especially after the collapse of soviet empire and neoliberal pillage extending to former socialist countries. So the neoliberal technocrats have taken over in a financial coup of creation of ECB, Lissabon Treaty etc. superstructures beyond any democratic control. Greek government fraud is not the exception but the rule as all EU governments have broken the stability pact (with couple exceptions). And the government fraud is not the reason of the collapse, the reason is implosion of the neoliberal global debt bubble and bank bailouts at human cost.
pansypoo53219
(20,969 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)so they could pretend that they qualified for Euro entry.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Guess what. That was the old Greek management, but the same criminals still run Goldman.
Of course Greece can pursue whatever legal means it wants to try (lawsuit in US not allowed), but more substantive and effective measures are also available. Greece inevitably will default, the question is how much worse things will get in the meantime.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)that Goldman committed what would be classed as a provable criminal act - they told the Greek government how to re-present figures to gain entry into the Euro. That's not a defense of Goldman - just a fact of life. I don't think there is any precedent for a government going down for fraud and as such conspricay to commit can't be applied.
The issues which have arisen are purely as a result of what the Greeks did with all the funds they were then able to attract as a result of being in the Euro. They built a model which simply couldn't be sustained. They grossly increased their public sector work force. Yes - the effect of that , which was the intention, was to reduce private sector unemployment but they lost sight of the fact that in the absense of sufficient tax receipts they had no ability to repay debt. As such a cycle started whereby new debt was used to repay old debt.......ad infinitum until the shit hit the fan.
tama
(9,137 posts)there are precedents from Iceland to many Latin American countries. Precedents of processing previous government fraud both through litigation (if the criminal suspects return to face court from US asylum) and through truth commissions.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Whilst charges have been successfully brought against bank executives in Iceland , now imprisoned, they remain pending against shareholders and their auditors with no charges to the best of my knowledge with respect to their government.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)They're not the ones who did this scam, and it's wrong to speak of them when you assign blame. A small group of Greek officials (in ND, in fact) together with Goldman and JPM pulled the scam off on the Greek people and the world. You may be right that Goldman was legal, but that's because they've always worked hard to make their frauds and deceptions technically legal. It's still a fraud, because they were wittingly enabling a public lie. And the money didn't go to reducing unemployment. The Greek elites and the international corporations who were bribing them made off with the lion's share, so that afterwards they could blame the people for "eating it together." Not to mention GS and JPM, reaping high interest payments on the sly while lies were told to the world. It's very important to understand this and not to heap abuse on the Greek people who are now indisputably the victims of an insane austerity policy, diktats from international bankers, and a completely bogus bailout plan that guarantees they will NEVER get out of the debt until they default fully and start over.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Fuck Samaras.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)oct 89, and foreign minister 1990-92.
he became pm in 2012.
i don't see where he had his hand on the main levers of finance power during the crucial periods.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Samaras and ND are leading the charge on the next round of austerity as ordered by the Troika, despite the disastrous results of the first two rounds, with a shrinking economy making it ever more impossible that Greece can get out of the hole. Austerity in the midst of 50% unemployment for those under 30! All this is delaying the inevitable - default and drachma. Adopting a Golden Dawn-style position on immigrants and refugees doesn't endear ND to me, either. ND also assented to the brief bankers' junta earlier this year.
ND is historically responsible for the least productive and most odious parts of the debt -- those accumulated at higher interest rates under the swap deals with GS and JPM Chase so as to falsify actual public debt levels. For that alone this party should no longer exist. They have weathered political rejection better than PASOK only because Papandreou refused the historic opportunity to do the right thing immediately in 2009, and fucked up throughout the next three years of crisis. He should have defaulted on ND's secret deals as soon as these were revealed. He should have also gone ahead with the referendum idea earlier this year. Instead his incompetence (presumably intentional) opened the way for ND's return. Both of the traditional ruling parties must and will go. The longer it takes for an anti-austerity, anti-troika government to come to power from the left, the more popular Golden Dawn is going to get.
Hope from a distance is cheap, but right now mine is vested in Spain and Portugal. If the governments there fall and anti-austerity governments come to power, it may sweep the rest of the austerity regimes out in a 1989-style wave.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)The Big Gorilla for US political system is the analogy between Pasok and Democrats, as Greece was also a de facto corrupt two-party system not unlike US, until they had to openly join forces to maintain the rule by international capitalistic kleptocracy. Andreas Papandreou tried as his final deed to organize a referendum, however lame, over future of Greece, but the financial coup was already so far that his attempt for modicum of honor lead only to total surrender.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Where is he now, do you know? Teaching a course in Failed Government (I made that up) as a professor in the JFK school at Harvard (I didn't make that up). He obeyed the troika and imposed austerity, and the referendum was a last lame save attempt on which he immediately surrendered. His allegiances were always to the money and the power.
tama
(9,137 posts)His life and career is good material for a Greek Tragedy.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)As in ancient Athens, each playwright wrote a troika of tragedies (one for each generation of Papandreou PM) and a farce to finalize.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)and the "bailout" plan, you are a perpetrator. You are doing the wrong thing.
(Would you give the same free ride to a President Romney after "only" four months?)
The misunderstanding here is perhaps due to the inordinate and false importance Americans place on individual figureheads. We seriously believe we vote for some lone hero rather than a program. In Greece as in most democratic countries, it's about the parties. ND is being the same ND as ever. The only difference is that the racism is more explicit so as to scapegoat immigrants in this time of crisis and take some of the wind out of Golden Dawn's sails. Samaras in no way represents a break with the ND who are primary perpetrators of the odious debt and the austerity measures. The old leadership would be doing exactly the same thing, and guess what? Most of them are still around. Switching heads is a necessary political maneuver, not a substantive change.
Or to keep it simple: He's kneeling to the banksters, throwing grandma out on the street, firing teachers and public servants, turning off the lights for households who can't afford their new taxes, and blaming the Pakistanis for it. Do you get it now?
tama
(9,137 posts)Not exactly, only trying to. Neighborhood assemblies of working people turn the lights immediately back when some government boss tries to act on their threat. Teachers don't stop teaching, doctors don't stop helping sick people, etc, they remain part of the community even when they are not getting paid.
He's not in control. He's just a parasite, people don't need him and do much better without him.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Just because they're not fully in control on the ground, it doesn't mean that they're not trying to commit such evil. So they're responsible for it.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)the situation initially & enforcing it thereafter over the longer haul, neither of which seems to apply. if you'd just said 'perpetrator' i'd have no disagreement, but your post suggested he was a major architect of the situation.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)
socialist_n_TN
(11,481 posts)only as a last resort. IOW, the fascists are the last line of the defense of capitalism. I wonder if this is what the PM is threatening.
tama
(9,137 posts)The Golden Dawn fascists are dependent from police protection and support. Greek government of two bankrupt parties owned by banks could still in principle break the fascist police forces if they wanted. But as they depend from that same fascist police for their own protection against masses and appearance of staying in control, they won't.
Fascists are not exactly popular in Greece, where people still remember well the Junta four decades ago. They are a real problem, but they will not win.
ananda
(28,856 posts)nt
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Look for the rats to start locating the exits soon.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)and debts to both the UK and the Netherlands remain payable. Notwithstanding the fact their population doesn't want to join EU anyway a current application would be rejected. They are also having difficulty in adjusting to an unemployment rate which is double the stable figure it used to be.
tama
(9,137 posts)and all roses have thorns. The big difference is that people of Iceland have chosen to strengthen democracy and give democracy a chance instead of surrendering to crony capitalism and/or fascism.
Wouldn't that be your choice also?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)it would be fixed in a short amount of time. But Iceland is on track eg, to have its loans paid back, and all signs show it is well on the way to recovery. They have also held accountable some of the criminals who were responsible for the crimes that collapsed their economy.
They are affected too by the disasters in all the other EU countries. Austerity which really means ('let's take advantage of the disaster we created to destroy all social programs while at the same time force the people to pay our gambling debts')is like a foreign invading army with WMDs and its beyond understanding that these sovereign countries have essentially given up their sovereignty, waved the white flag, without a single sign that it will even work to improve their situations.
Things just keep getting worse. Repeating the same failed policies over and over again, creating debt slaves out of once sovereign nations has not moved these forward one inch since these draconian policies began.
