Some Seem Intent on Holding Joe Biden's Feet to the Fire,

[MineralMan]

even before he has been inaugurated. Some are listening to his addresses prior to inauguration, and combing through them, looking for ways they can complain about what he is proposing.

The man has not even been sworn in yet, and some are already dissatisfied with his Presidency. What is that about?

Is he not progressive enough? Do people think he is a miracle worker? Do some reject him if he cannot implement their personal political objectives immediately? Are some people so clueless that cannot see the harm they are doing? What is it?

I'm not sure. I do know this, however: Joe Biden is about to launch a new administration in a time of deep unrest and disasters caused by the tyrant he is replacing. He faces a Senate that will be equally divided between the two parties, a Senate that often needs 60 votes to accomplish anything. He comes to office in the midst of the worst pandemic this nation and the world have ever faced since the black plague in Europe hundreds of years ago. He must be inaugurated without an audience of ordinary citizens, because there are violent groups who want him dead, so he must surround himself with defensive troops.

And even with all that, there are those who seek to find ways to criticize him before he has even begun his term in office.

I am disgusted by this. I am alarmed by this. I am at my wits end about this. I can no longer remain silent in response to such counterproductive nonsense. What are such people thinking? Can they not hold off on their criticism and attacks at least until Joe Biden and Kamala Harris actually take office? Can they not join the rest of us in celebration of the end of Donald J. Trump's reign of tyranny?

Those are the questions I ask. Here is a thread for people who would do such a thing to our new President to answer those questions.

I await their explanations, but do not expect them:

[Hugin]

1. I'm gonna give President-elect Biden a wide pass.

At least he's not actively trying to kill me. That alone deserves a break in my eyes.

I suppose that puts me in the lenient crowd.

[MineralMan]

5. As am I and as are most people.

[Zoonart]

9. Me too.

I cannot even begin to imagine the burden on this man and on this woman who have chosen to serve. They deserve one help and our patience; they are looking into the abyss.

We need to understand this.

[Hugin]

17. Thanks for the shout out to Vice President-elect Harris.

From the looks of the emerging administration she's going to be shouldering her fair share.

[Zoonart]

23. She is the best.

[pazzyanne]

137. Me three! nt

[LiberalLovinLug]

139. Its unclear whether you are scolding left of center DUers or left of center elected representatives

1. If its other progressives on this board, then I'd ask why have a political discussion board if you can't question policies or direction, appointments etc.. Do you really think what we discuss here, has a big influence on what Biden will decide? I'll answer: Of course not. So what harm is there is debating even ......gulp...even if some here see it as "holding feet to the fire"? .

2. If you mean Democratic representatives, then I'd ask when exactly is the right time? They represent a large and growing community withing the party. It seems to me, that just before a new administration is sworn in, while it is still being formed, before the President Elect has made his final choice, and when there is no danger of an immediate election to worry about is the PERFECT time to make your positions clear.

[MineralMan]

146. Elected representatives tend to sort themselves out with

each election. I leave that up to their constituencies. I communicate regularly and directly with legislators from my own state and districts. I have little interest in addressing other legislators, who would rightly ignore my communications.

As for the rest, I am not scolding anyone. I'm addressing everyone who is looking for faults to find in the new administration, even before they take office. DUers, Twitter users, pundits, would-be pundits, and everyone else who doesn't ever run for office but feels that their opinions should be everyones' opinion. I'm an equal opportunity person. I'm sharing my opinion, which anyone can agree with or reject.

It shouldn't be unclear. When I disagree with a DUer, I do so in threads where they post something. When I write an OP, I am addressing a much more general audience, one that includes people who read here but are not member or never post.

That is what I have been doing here for some years, now.

[LiberalLovinLug]

151. Thanks for clearing it up

So its directed to DUers as well as any other lurkers.

I'd just say that the many of the folks on DU that are calling for and pushing for a more progressive policy platform going forward get their energy and hope from the outspoken progressive reps. So in effect, you are also including them, indirectly, in your admonishments. They give inspiration to many of us that it is possible to seriously now look at progressive ideas and policy, especially now with the majority. If a Manchin, or even a Schumer or Pelosi doesn't like it, sorry. Its a free country. And I thought, a free party to lobby within for influence. ESPECIALLY if you are an elected rep.

And those here that vocally support those reps like the Squad are not "attacking" the establishment of the party for fun, or to inflict damage, they are using the time before the cabinet is fully filled, towards pushing the party, ......even thought Democrats have done much good already.....towards even more inclusive, more egalitarian policy. Even if they and we, move the needle a wee bit forward. Maybe its time the more conservative wing of the party come down and extend a hand. Why can't the onus be also on them to come together and unify? Why is it always the progressive wing that has to shut up? There has never been a better time now when the Republicans are in disarray.

[BannonsLiver]

39. Most reasonable, rational people will.

Others consumed by grievance and ideological purity will not.

[Vivienne235729]

78. ME TOO!

[seta1950]

101. Exactly

Thank you

[Thekaspervote]

2. Maybe they need their feet held to the fire!! It's utter nonsense

[MineralMan]

4. "Feet Held to the Fire" is a torture technique that dates

back to the Inquisition, where people were forced to confess while being tortured. It is not a good thing to use as a metaphor when talking about the President-Elect of the United States.





It is simply offensive on a level that can only be understood by those who understand medieval torture.

[Butterflylady]

115. Thank you for giving me a much needed history lesson.

Always wondered where the saying comes from. Again, one is never to old to learn something new.

[Budi]

3. Thank you. I'm noticing a definate parallel.

Ya know?

"The horseshoe ain't just a theory" ~quote

[onecaliberal]

6. Completely effing ridiculous. So exhausted with all of these people.

[Laelth]

7. Biden needs heat from his left. It's useful.

It allows him to look calm, balanced, moderate, and Presidential.

If the left screams for $2,000 in extra stimulus, Joe can “compromise” and get us a bonus $1,400 while looking like he came down “in the middle” in this debate.

If AOC, for example, screams, “You can’t live on $15/hr. in New York! The minimum wage should be $18/hr.,” then Biden is better armed to get us the $15/hr. he actually wants, and he can look like a moderate when he does it.

This is basic stuff. Heat from the more extreme end of the Party gives cover for the leader of the party to make necessary reforms. AOC makes Biden look moderate, and that’s a GOOD thing.

-Laelth

[MineralMan]

11. Nonsense!

[PurgedVoter]

128. I love you MineralMan but Nonsense! right back at you.

Seriously, while I respect your thought and care, there are times when your attempts to undercut the left wing of the party makes me shake my head. You do great work, your voice is one we need, but you know sometimes when someone screams "Divisive," they need to examine what they are doing and stop encouraging division. I get it, you hate AOC with a blazing white fervor. We all get it. Really a lot of us do. Whenever anyone brings up AOC, you turn rather harsh and divisive.

Some of us remember the DLC and some of us want voices that will speak out against the DLC happening again. Some of us fear that money could creep in and transform the Democratic party into something we would no longer love. A lot of us, as a result want the voices of people like AOC ready and loud, fighting against complacency and the voices of big money.

While I respect your work and wisdom in many areas, I think, and I do not exclude myself, we all need feed back and we all need to grow. In this area, MineralMan, I have to return your words to you. Nonsense!

[luv2fly]

16. No disrespect but I'm pretty sure most people think Joe is a moderate

Except for those who wish to engage in conflict, and it's a waste of time to argue with them.

There's no value in dissing progressives.

[Laelth]

31. Joe's stimulus bill (as currently defined) is OUTRAGEOUSLY ...

... BEAUTIFULLY liberal.

Only people farther to the left asking for more can make that bill appear to be “moderate.” Fostering the appearance of moderation is useful to us, I think.

-Laelth

[PatSeg]

70. Yes, it actually is very liberal

and bold, even though Biden himself may appear to be moderate. Many of his policies have been described as extremely progressive, but for a handful of people, nothing will ever be progressive enough.

Meanwhile, he has to get his proposals through congress where we have very slim margins in both the House and the Senate. Attacking Biden from the left is really counterproductive. The focus should be on republicans who will do everything they can to thwart his efforts.

We do not have to agree with all the future president's policies, but we can still stand unified behind him at this crucial moment in American history. There is much work to be done and there will be time enough for debate down the road.

[Laelth]

73. Progressives asking for MORE give Joe cover.

He can appear to be moderate if the left keeps hammering him for more.

That heat from the left is USEFUL. The OP doesn’t like it, but it serves a very useful purpose.

-Laelth

[PatSeg]

82. Perhaps

But not right now with the inauguration five days away and the entire country in turmoil. Between the overwhelming threats of violence throughout the country, accompanied by the worse days of the pandemic, we need to focus on the most urgent priorities. The issues of the day are quite literally life and death. Time to put politics on hold temporarily.

[beastie boy]

36. I am not sure how this works in real life.

If, say, Manchin puts heat on Biden from the right and screams for no universal stimulus at all, would it make Biden more balanced and presidential to compromise for the $600 already passed?

[Laelth]

63. Yep. That's how it works.

That’s why I would prefer to see Biden taking heat from the left (making his compromise legislation more liberal) rather than heat from the right (making his compromise legislation more conservative).

If the only heat Joe takes comes from the right, we can expect more conservative legislation. If Joe takes more heat from the left, we will get more liberal legislation, and Joe looks like a sane, reasonable moderate.

Heat from the left is good for the Party as a whole.

-Laelth

[KS Toronado]

117. I see what you're saying and it makes sense, how about a one word substitution to turn the heat down

If the only suggestions Joe takes comes from the right, we can expect more conservative legislation. If Joe takes more
suggestions from the left, we will get more liberal legislation, and Joe looks like a sane, reasonable moderate.

[LiberalLovinLug]

125. You are right, we need pressure from the left. Even more.

I don't know how people here don't understand how politics works. A lot of it is behind the scenes as well. Don't worry, they are all big boys and girls. We now have more progressive reps. Like all the candidates that won who publicly support M4A. Most Americans support it, its a winning policy. And it would garner a lot more weight and plausibility if ALL Democrat reps publicly supported it, and at minimum said that is the ultimate long goal, even while recognizing that it cannot be simply implemented tomorrow as some on the extreme or young, or naive left expect.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

37. I sense you don't care for AOC?

She represents her district and they like what she's done so far. I wish I could vote for her. I won't live long enough but I'd like to see her move all the way up the line to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

[Laelth]

54. I adore AOC.

I wish I could put 100 more Democrats in the House that share her values.



-Laelth

[IronLionZion]

110. They'll claim Biden is a radical left-wing socialist no matter what he does

That QAnon congresswoman is already trying to impeach him before he takes office. GOP will obstruct as much as they can no matter what it is.

Of course it would be sweet to have liberal reforms. But at this point, I'd be grateful just to have a functioning government again with qualified people in charge of agencies and policies.

[SWBTATTReg]

8. I agree w/ you. And these same people see what trump did in encouraging the mob to lash

out, yet still, like you said, find something to complain about, even thought Mr. Biden's admin. is not even 1 day old yet.

He's deserves a grace period. Even trump got a grace period when swore in.

Mr. Biden deserves our support. He's got it from me.

[Demsrule86]

34. He gets a four year grace period from me...he has a tough job ahead.

[grumpyduck]

10. One sure thing about being President

is that, no matter what you do, some people won't like it.

That's just the way it is.

[MineralMan]

13. We do not have to participate in that,

nor do we have to tolerate that.

I, for one, will do neither.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

98. We also don't need to participate in cult like behavior

in which the dear leader can do no wrong. You know, like Trump's followers.

Saying that he should try for $2000 when he said in Georgia right before the election that he would get a $2000 check out the door is not holding his feet to the fire.

[PatrickforO]

12. Well, I'm not one of those who will be critical of Biden. Sure, as time goes on and

things normalize, then he will once again be subject to reasonable criticism, as are all presidents.

However, we are presently in an urgent situation with three crises going at once. We have an out of control pandemic, an economy in crisis, and the threat of massive insurrection by domestic terrorists.

At this point the best thing we can possibly do is stand with Biden, Harris, his administration, and Democrats in Congress. We have to get these major crises under control before anything else.

Not only that, Mineral, but did you see Biden speak last night? He was great. He has plans he is putting forward that make sense and will help a) get the vaccine out more effectively, b) work with Congress and Governors to increase testing, the use of masks and social distancing, c) provided additional relief for Americans, as well as state and local governments, and d) start putting initiatives in place that will rebuild our infrastructure.

Then, this morning Pelosi gave a presser and she talked about the accountability for Trump's treasonous insurrection, and also how she looks forward to working with the Biden administration to accomplish its goals on our behalf.

Honestly, I don't see how anyone on here (or Main Street in general) could be critical of that. Our Democratic leaders, and rank and file in Congress, are stepping up in a big way.

[Demsrule86]

38. Like Obama was subject to 'reasonable criticsm' which cost us the House and the Senate and

destroyed his presidency from 10 on. No thanks I don't call that reasonable or smart politics.

[PatrickforO]

90. Well, not to split hairs, but Obama was an excellent president who had the temerity

to be an excellent president while at the same time being black.

The criticism the racists levied at him was as far from 'reasonable' as you can get.

However, Obama was at the same time human, and one reasonable criticism to his policies might be the ISDS provisions in the TPP, which were, of course, criticized by some in our own party.

Speaking, in fact, of reasonable criticism, we would be very well served by enacting a new Fairness Doctrine to replace the one Reagan killed in 1987. The original was enacted in 1948 to prevent Americans from ever falling prey to Goebbels style big-lie propaganda. We need a new one that essentially requires anything on any platform calling itself news to confine itself to facts, and anything on any platform expressing opinions to be labeled as such. That would help.

Because I do hear what you are saying - the public 'criticism' levied against Obama by the right, and duly parroted by the media, was not reasonable. It was racist.

Reasonable criticism is about differences in policy, and if we get rid of that, we essentially kill the debate and compromise our founders intended to move us forward.

Unreasonable criticism is what Fox, OANN, AM hate-talk radio, Newsmax, Breitbart and others spew out.

Reasonable criticism is debate on the issues between knowledgeable parties, and if your or I disagree with a policy position, we should express that along with a cogent argument as to why, AND we should be willing to be big enough to change our minds if we are wrong. Last night, Biden himself said that we are going to move forward, and that sometimes he may make mistakes, but his promise is to do his best. Biden, I think, also knows the difference between reasonable and unreasonable criticism.

[Wellstone ruled]

14. Not surprised by hearing from the Peanut

Gallery . Couple weeks ago,noticed a start of the Nay Sayers running their mouths on Cable Talk shows. Many were the same that went after Clinton.

Now as of this morning and the announcement of the lack of Covid Vaccine Back Up supplies,the landscape of Politics has changed the Priorities.

Once again,we see another mega lie form Diaper Don,there were zero backup second round Vaccines.

[bigtree]

15. that's absurd. Biden has made a proposal that will be debated in Congress

...and everyone will have the opportunity (under our system of government) to weigh in on these proposals.

I can't think of anything more damaging to our party than to expect our voters to line up like lemmings and genuflect because the incoming president made a proposal.

Let's participate in the debate over these objections and more in Congress, and not treat poeple who dissent on policy like they're traitors to the party.

[MineralMan]

19. Something is certainly absurd.

That's obvious. Again, he has not even been sworn in yet.

Not everyone who claims to hold views actually holds those views. We have learned that from previous administrations.

Some come here to sow fear, uncertainty, and discontent.

[bigtree]

46. that seems to go both ways

...many people here unfairly accusing those expecting more money of attacking Biden, instead of the inadequate amount in his proposal.

It's a curious argument, considering Congress will be debating this, to (slyly) accuse people expressing opposition to the proposal's cash amount of sowing 'fear, uncertainty, and discontent.'

So arrogantly accusing posters here who have policy differences. Is that something we should expect to change after Biden's sworn in?

I can't think of anything that's been argued against the stimulus that's more divisive here than what you just wrote, ostensively, in favor of it.

[MineralMan]

84. The thread that prompted this post is no longer visible

in the GD thread list. The author of the OP of that thread can no longer post here. I participated in that thread, but cannot any longer, so I used it as a jumping-off point for this thread.

President-Elect Biden has made a proposal. Presidential proposals either become law or they do not. Presidents propose; Congress disposes.

The latest proposal made by the man who will be President on January 20, will face a tough fight by the Republican in the Senate. It may even not succeed in being passed. It is, as are all Pre sidential proposals for legislation, a carefully-planned proposal that a President believes can become law. I think, in the end, his proposal, or something close to it will quickly become law and benefit the citizenry. Something that does not pass benefits nobody.

Proposing things that have zero chance of becoming law helps nobody. Such proposals are useless from the start. Without the support of Congress, Presidents can do very little to create progress.

I'm pretty sure you have no idea what my ideal solutions are. If you did, you'd realize that we have the same goals. We differ only on how those goals are reached. I understand that without legislation that passes in Congress, nothing happens. I want things to happen. I do not insist that my ideals be reached in a single pass. That does not change what I want in the end. I am for progress, whether it is happens in a single day or takes years. I want movement toward my goals, which are actually very close to your own.

We differ only on how to reach those goals.

[bigtree]

88. we shouldn't start our debate from the 'middle'

...if that's not where we're coming from.

It's basic advocacy, and I'm surprised at the responses which suggest dissenters are objecting to an end product. This is how advocacy works. You start from where you stand, and work to hold firm.

Joe Biden began with a compromise, I believe, and would readily agree to any more money agreed to by Congress. That means the debate has just begun over this amount, as you suggested. There's plenty of time to support the bill President Biden indicates he'll sign, but that legislation is in progress, not necessarily the ultimate position or question here.

So we disagree on process, or about the efficacy of this proposal. None of those actually affect Joe Biden's standing as president (he'll sign what the new Congress presents him), so it's a curious argument that we should feel compelled to defer to him at this point out of some concern for his legitimacy or reputation.

[MineralMan]

94. I disagree, given the 50/50 split in the Senate.

I think we must propose bills that at least have some chance of passage. Otherwise, the opposition will be solid and unbending.

Am I pragmatic when it comes to politics? Yes, I am, because I have been watching politics for 60 years, starting as a 15-year-old volunteer with the JFK campaign.

Every administration must deal with the Congress it has, not an aspirational Congress that does not exist. If you think Biden's proposal is from the middle, you are wrong. It is going to have great difficulty getting through the Senate. That, I can guarantee.

When I was 15 years old, one of my primary concern was civil rights. Then, I believed that hatred and prejudice could be eradicated with the stroke of a pen. I was a naïve teenager. I soon learned otherwise. Now, at age 75, that battle still goes on, unresolved. Progress has been made, but cops are still shooting unarmed black men with impunity. In 60 years, the problem is still not solved, despite some progress being made.

The city I live in, St. Paul, MN is discussing reparations within its city council. That's a good thing, but I doubt they will enact anything this year. The problem continues, as do the problems of poverty, racism, misogyny, and many others. We have made some progress, and will make more, if we proceed intelligently. If we lose elections to Republicans, we will see setbacks instead.

So, my pragmatic self does not demand that we do it all at once. We cannot. It won't happen. We have to move ahead in increments, because there is not the public will to do otherwise. Aside from everything else, we live in a nation that can elect someone like Donald J. Trump as President, setting things back for four years. We should not do that again. Instead, we should push to increase our legislative majorities to a point where we can be assured that progressive legislation will not only be passed, but passed by undeniable majorities.

I am a long-range thinker, despite my advanced age. I am that, because I have learned how this all works since I was 15 years old.

So, I post here, because it is a good forum for me to participate in. We might disagree. There it is.

[bigtree]

105. arguing that you know what will pass in this time is fine

...but it's not clear to me that republicans aren't chastened by the election enough to move off of their positions on Covid relief.

That's why we provide the opportunity for legislators to weigh in, and why advocacy is still vital. If we tell politicians we'll only support what THEY will tolerate, they'll basically cleave to that at voting time.

I don't know why I'm left explaining basic advocacy, but I'm exhausted with it..

[MineralMan]

108. Advocacy and attack on those who are trying to achieve the goals

are two different things. Advocacy is important. Attacks accomplish nothing.

I know you saw the thread that prompted my post. You replied in it.

[bigtree]

116. I'm sorry

...I can't recall it.

I'm actually drafting off of your remarks alone, and speaking in general.

I'm painting my pantry, and popping in here in-between coats.

[Demsrule86]

43. In other words, the usual politics on our side...What has that gained us in terms of policy

success? In the last 20 years, we have been able to get the ACA which is on life support and needs reform badly and marriage equality-worthy important policy for sure but more is desperately needed. We have a 6-3 minority at SCOTUS...perhaps the usual politics in our party should be considered an abject failure and something new implemented. May, I suggest yellow dog Democratic loyalty for a change. Attacking Biden or as you prefer dissenting will lead to a Republican victory in 22 and likely 24 as well.

[bigtree]

53. we've been taught this cynicism by this corrupt administration

...and its republican enablers.

We need to be more forceful, and press for changes that deserve the overwhelming support for our party we saw in the last election.

Policy differences aren't 'attacking Biden or Democrats. Dissent over policy is the bedrock of our democratic process. It's sophistry to accuse people who disagree of 'attacking Biden,' and it's a despicable political tactic.

[Demsrule86]

62. In a different time perhaps...but we see what happened to the Obama presidency...we should

unite and pass policy that can be agreed to in Congress period...disagreement should not be made public by any member of Congress. We live in perilous times and what you suggest has never worked...Go back to Bill Clinton who also lost the House in his second year in office. Time for a change. What we have done in the past has only enable the GOP.

[bigtree]

69. who says we won't 'unite?'

...we absolutely will.

That doesn't mean we won't have vigorous debates and some disagreements about policy among us.

I find the defense of Biden here gratuitous and self-serving to one's satisfaction with the amount of the stimulus. Also, I view the 'hating Biden' and attacking Biden' defenses as hyperbolic nonsense designed to deflect dissent, and provide a gratuitous slap at the 'left' for AOC and Sanders opponents.

Unity, indeed.

[Demsrule86]

92. It is not a vigourous debate... I have no doubt that Biden wants as much as possible...there is

no debate. We can only get whatever Congress goes along with and this article says basically that Biden lied...that is what it says...and he didn't. And if it continues, we will lose 22 and 24. When we attack our president from the right and the left they get no policy...this is true from Carter to Obama. One would think that some would learn that hard lesson as we have watched the GOP gain more and more power which is dangerous to our Republic.

[bigtree]

95. there's going to be an opportunity for congressfolk and senators to weigh in

...they call that debate.

Dissent over the amount in those discussions is no more an attack on Biden than the responses here at DU.

[Demsrule86]

153. When some basically call Biden a liar over the $2000...that is not just debate.

It is the politics of destruction that has cost the Democratic Party dearly since ...well forever. I could argue that it goes back to Carter and is why the GOP has had more success and our Republic is hanging by a thread.

[bigtree]

156. you made up rhetoric here and then argued against your own invention

...weird stuff.

[betsuni]

159. +1

[Dem2]

18. I avoid those posts/posters, but...

thank you for taking a bullet on this.

It's agonizing reading some of the complaints that are unfair at best.

[MineralMan]

20. You can always count on me to do that.

[justhanginon]

140. Thank you!

[Autumn]

21. As Democrats we pay attention to Democrats who are campaigning for office. I refuse to believe

that Biden would just be making making campaign promises he doesn't intend to keep to get our votes. Talking about what he has said VS what is now being planned by others doesn't mean I am not celebrating him, I have always been able to walk and talk at the same time. But when one thing is said and that one thing is changed by other people I intend to talk about it. Biden said $2000 not $1400. Joe's really good at saying what he means. Yeah feet, fire. That's how it works. You should be used to it.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/05/joe-biden-georgia-rally-senate-runoff-election-vpx.cnn

[MineralMan]

25. Oh, yes, I'm used to it.

I am also used to calling it out for what it is. You can count on me to continue doing so. Even the Senator represented in your avatar is holding his tongue right now. It's a good move.

[Autumn]

42. The Senator "represented in my avatar is and has been talking" about Americans getting

stimulus checks that will help them, not 600 or 1400 to get them through the week that won't even make a mortgage payment in most places. Bernie doesn't sit down and shut up, neither will I. He also is very capable of focusing on impeachment and helping Americans who are getting desperate and have not been helped by Trumps government.

To quote Bernie.

President-elect Biden is absolutely right. $600 is not enough for working class Americans who are struggling to pay the rent and feed their families. Our first order of business must be to pass $2,000 direct payments and major COVID-relief.

[MineralMan]

48. I also find the violent ballerina image in your signature

line to be in very poor taste. I am not suggesting you remove either of those things. They represent your opinions. I will continue to express my opinion, too.

Bernie Sanders is not the President-Elect. He lost his second primary race as well as his first one. We elected Joe Biden to attempt to solve the many horrible problems we face. I await his solutions that can get through Congress, because, without that, he can do absolutely nothing major or long-lasting.

I'll be supporting his efforts. You will do as you please.

[Autumn]

60. I find it hilarious. It was even funnier on TV.

To quote Bernie

President-elect Biden is absolutely right. $600 is not enough for working class Americans who are struggling to pay the rent and feed their families. Our first order of business must be to pass $2,000 direct payments and major COVID-relief.

[MineralMan]

64. I'm sure you do.

[Autumn]

87. You've been very open about your family life. I will admit to having kids and many grand kids.

Last edited Fri Jan 15, 2021, 04:10 PM - Edit history (1)

That has sent me to many sporting events and many, many ballet recitals. I've seen a lot worse. It's safe to say I am not the only person who has seen that or something very similar happen in real life unsanitized events. Some find it funny, a few don't .

[MineralMan]

89. I have never found deliberate violent assault on another person amusing.

In that video clip, the dancer on the left clearly looks at the one on the right, the better to aim her foot at her face. It couldn't be any clearer. If you think that is funny, well, that's you, I guess. I will not stand near you, if you don't mind.

[Autumn]

91. I don't mind at all MM. There is ZERO possibility you and I will ever stand next to each other. nt

[Cuthbert Allgood]

103. It's a comedy bit, for goodness sake.

Do you not like they physical comedy in Shakespeare either?

[MineralMan]

106. Sure doesn't look like it to me.

Do you know the source of that video? If so, I will go look at the longer version.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

113. Obscure little show called America's Got Talent.

&ab_channel=Popcorn

[Celerity]

133. lol

[Autumn]

155. I don't care who doesn't like it, that shit is funny!

[Celerity]

132. +1000

[bigtree]

72. Bernie also described the payments as a 'first step'

..that's the man I'm backing in this debate in the Senate.

He clearly understands that maximum pressure must be applied to move the political class off of the miserly sums they're providing, and that power doesn't concede without a demand.

[Autumn]

81. Bernie Sanders as the Senate Budget Committee's new chair is the best thing that

could happen to the American people. Not so much for the wealthy and big corporations.

[bigtree]

86. agreed

...

[MineralMan]

118. OK, I found the complete video, after a serious Google search.

Your signature line GIF has no context at all. Here's the video it came from: In context, it is a comedy bit. As a standalone GIF, it is an assault. Context matters. I hunted for the context, since you claimed it was funny. I have never once viewed America's Got Talent, so I had never seen the context. I suspect most others have not, either. I still object to the standalone GIF being used out of its context. I still don't find the humor, though.

[Autumn]

122. I have the only GIF that has no context? I don't think so. Thanks for the video, I knew

I had seen it somewhere. Thanks for the whole video but I'm doubtful an over 3 minute video would work or be allowed in a signature line. Of course I'm no expert.

[BamaRefugee]

141. Far more restrained response than I could have done! ;-)

[Autumn]

144. It's just a game that some play.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

130. Maybe you're humorless

Here's an example you may be more familiar with. Let's say I put this is my signature:

Is that comedy or a threat of assault? Now, of course you are going to say that everyone knows that bit. (As a high school teacher--they don't). But, just because you don't know the source material isn't on the person posting it. Your ignorance is your own. If I put "Fences make good neighbors" in my signature and you accuse me of supporting the wall, your ignorance of what Frost is really stating in that poem is not on me but on you.

[MineralMan]

147. And maybe you don't know me at all.

Consider that.

[Autumn]

149. When they came for TV and movie clip GIFs, there was no one left.

[stillcool]

22. I don't get it..

They have problems with the legislation, before there is any legislation? Is it so difficult to wait to see if we make it past Jan. 20th? I guess they have to counter Republicans BS, and demanding more right from the get-go could be their strategy. It's so hard to think.

[relayerbob]

24. As I said elsewhere

The right doesn't have a monopoly on extremists, whiners and dogmatists. Anyone with common sense knows it's going to take a full court press just to get the country back from the brink.

[MineralMan]

26. Some will always remain in the backcourt, keeping

the rest of the team from winning.

[bluestarone]

27. TY!

I have full faith that Joe and Kamala will do EVERYTHING they can for every citizen of this country! I will NEVER second guess them!!

[Gothmog]

28. I have met Joe in person twice and I trust him

I agree with Joe's proposals and I will support him

[MineralMan]

30. Thank you. I know you will.

[Hobo]

29. What he said eom

[SharonClark]

32. Your pre-emptive strike against "some"

is shockingly similar to trump’s “some say”. No proof, just accusations.

This is Democratic Underground, a discussion group for Democrats, not a cult group like those who support trump.

There will be discussions regarding public policy on DU whether you like it or not.

[TwilightZone]

35. "No proof, just accusations. "

There's plenty of proof. All one has to do is look around.

But then, we also see what we want to see.

[NurseJackie]

40. Lulz!

Please.

[MineralMan]

41. Never did I tell people not to discuss anything.

What I did was ask questions. What I did was state my opinion. That's what I do here.

I can't tell people what to do here, but I can, and will, question what they do here. I've been doing that for a very long time now, and I am still here, and plan to remain here, doing the same thing.

I hope you won't mind if I do that, but I will continue.

So, have you any answers to my questions?

[TwilightZone]

44. You might want to look in the mirror.

Comparing someone to Trump to shut down discussion sounds shockingly similar to what you're accusing others of.

[mcar]

52. Pre-emptive strike?

I suggest you peruse GD today.

[MineralMan]

66. Good suggestion.

[BannonsLiver]

33. Ideological purity must be maintained.

(Zombie gif I’m too lazy to find)

[Cuthbert Allgood]

107. THIS RIGHT HERE

[BannonsLiver]

161. Can I take that as confirmation my point is accurate?

[progressoid]

143. +1

[mvd]

45. I think it has been pretty good, actually

I expect wide discussion here. Outright bashing of Democrats that isn’t constructive is prohibited, but not voicing of displeasure or concerns.

I personally am not unhappy so far and very relived that Biden will be President. While I am just as progressive as in 2016, I find myself to be more practical than I was then. I will always fight for progressive values, but I also do not expect Biden to be like Sanders would have been.

[MineralMan]

55. Senator Sanders is not the President-Elect

He remains an independent Senator. He tried twice, and lost twice in the primaries, as you may remember. He was not the choice of the voters, who remain the body that decides.

[mvd]

67. I said in my post that I realize Biden is not Sanders

Yes, we should suggest things to Biden, but we should be realistic. He’s not going to immediately push for Medicare For All or the Green New Deal. But if we get progress towards those goals, it’s a victory.

[Demsrule86]

93. Medicare for all is not possible with this congress. Let's start with a public option which I

believe will lead to universal care. It would also keep our promise to Georgians who voted for our new Senators who don't have health care as Georgia did not expand Medicaid.

[mcar]

47. They at least waited until Obama was inaugurated before they started this nonsense

I, too, am disgusted by this. Are they unaware of what has happened in this country in the last four years?

[PatSeg]

74. Or even just the last couple weeks

Meanwhile, the pandemic is just getting worse and there are many serious issues to address from day one for the new administration. Add to that all the things we don't even know, that Biden is undoubtedly aware of. I have a feeling that as bad as things look to us right now, they could actually be far worse.

Now is the time to show unified support. We can debate policy issues later when the dust settles.

[mcar]

75. That's right

Give the new administration a bit of time to shovel out all the crap this country has endured for the last 4 years.

[PatSeg]

85. I can't even begin to imagine

what an overwhelming job it will be. The Biden administration certainly does not need a lot of nitpicking right now from its own party. It will be getting enough of that from Fox News and other right-wing media, as well as republican members of congress. I'm sure our support in these perilous times will be greatly appreciated.

[Hekate]

157. Sadly, they did not wait a moment, beginning w his choice of minister for the invocation...

The Black minister was allegedly homophobic, and on this allegation, Obama was vociferously accused of caving to the homophobes of this country.

It went downhill fast from there, all before the inauguration was even held. The tropes were cast and never quit, no matter what he did.

That’s why I and many others spent nearly 8 years in the BOG, celebrating each incremental gain — in this instance, gains for gay rights, where the incremental gains led to acceptance of out gays in the military, gay marriage in the military, and finally gay marriage for this nation.

Obama’s an incremental kind of guy. He lays the groundwork and plays a long game. If he is not cut off at the knees, he gets the job done.

Joe Biden worked closely with him for 8 years. Yes?

[apnu]

49. Heat and pressure are fine.

Outright "not pure enough" is counter productive.

Its a line to walk, not exactly fine, but there will be some who fail to walk it.

It is the prerogative of the young to yell at the old for change. All through human history, no matter what the culture is, this is found to happen.

[jcgoldie]

50. Differences in opinion over policy do not constitute vicious attacks as some here want to maintain

We are 2 years out from the next election every member of the democratic party doesnt need to march in lockstep. I haven’t seen anyone criticizing Joe Biden only people arguing policy points in bills.

You are “disgusted” that there are differences of opinion within the big tent Democratic party? Really? I would be rather disgusted I think if we had the party of absolute conformity that some here seem to seek.

Joe Biden is not some delicate flower he’s been around a long time and accomplished many pragmatic things. He understands politics and he doesn’t need to be treated like an unquestioned supreme leader nor do I suspect he would remotely want to be.

[mcar]

57. I haven't seen any differences of opinion over policy

In fact, the OPs MM is addressing don't discuss policy at all. They merely attack the president-elect over a disagreement about what words were said when.

I encourage everyone to look at the proposed policy. It will help many people and is far more than one payment.

[jcgoldie]

61. Wheres the attack on Biden

This is about AOC arguing for an additional 2 k rather than 2 k total I take it... I still dont see the part where she criticized Biden. I havent seen a single Democrat “attack” or even criticize Joe Biden.

[mcar]

65. Lots of people attacking Biden in the OPs

[tonedevil]

124. You have to understand...

these attacks are so pervasive that no evidence can be produced.

[Autumn]

154. There are no attacks they were following Joe's lead. As far as Joe was concerned the $600 was never

a part of the $2,000.

Joe's tweet

Link to tweet

followed by AOC and Cori Bush

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[MarcA]

135. Agreed. What we don't need are straw man attacks on DU. n/t

[Hekate]

51. Thanks for taking the flak on this. I am just exhausted at this point....

Altho, on the good news front, one of our most persistent Inquisitors is now on time-out.

[MineralMan]

58. That is true.

Like rain off a duck's back...

[ismnotwasm]

56. SSDD mostly

[MineralMan]

59. Indeed.

You're lucky, You can see danger behind you as mirrored on your sword.

[Walleye]

68. Joe is very accessible if you need to "put the heat on him" call him up

Don’t start arguments in public that the
opposition is going to turn around and use against us, you know they will. Give the man a damn honeymoon. if you have criticism, just walk up and tell him. And never question his motives, in public or private. He may not be pure in your politics,
but he’s definitely pure of heart.

[MineralMan]

71. Most people would not have the courage to address a President

directly. I suspect that is the case for almost all those who would "hold his feet to the fire."

I have spoken to two Presidents in person. It's an awesome thing. I did not offer them any suggestions, however.

[Walleye]

79. True but you can talk to his people or at least communicating with him someway that isn't tweeting

I’m just saying we don’t need to give the opposition any ammunition. They make up enough of it from whole cloth. And debates on the floor of the Congress are fine.

[Chakaconcarne]

76. It's totally unacceptable IMO

This is not how we should be starting off and I believe messages to that extent are rooted from the other side....

I get there will be criticism, but we all need to be aware of posers looking to disrupt.

I will be the first one to call it out if I believe it's not within reason...not that that means much, but it's my commitment to this president.

That is my opinion.

[MineralMan]

80. Thank you!

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

77. We need unity to stop COVID and fascism, and I support him 100%.

Trump all but destroyed our country. So much needs to be fixed. It is imperative that we unite behind an effort to undo Trump fascism, and heal our country from this horrible plague.

It's entirely up to us. The fascist Republicans will continue to try to destroy our democracy. Regular Republicans are basically useless in government or for any constructive purpose.

I stand with Joe and Kamala. I know I may not like every single thing they do, but we have several national crises on our hands, but I'm not gonna sweat the small stuff.

Literally, like Franklin said, "if we don't all hang together, then most assuredly, we will hang separately."

[Vivienne235729]

83. In light of everything going on (and that's A LOT), I will give Biden a pass for now bc it is just

TOO MUCH. But eventually, when things stabilize a bit, I DO expect him to make sweeping progressive changes. I will not be okay with just more of the same crap. It is long overdue. We need to have a universal health care system, sweeping LE reforms (DOJ all the way down), immigration reforms, media reforms, education reforms, $50,000 student loan forgiveness,, etc. are important to me.

[mcar]

126. With a 50-50 senate, our expectations need to be realistic

[Vivienne235729]

129. with VP Harris as the tiebreaker. We got the house, senate, AND WH. Time to take a stand.

Screw the Republicans and their sensitivities as they surely didn't care about ours for the past 12 years.

[Celerity]

150. you are setting yourself up for disappointment (at this point I just want Trump's damage undone)

We need to have a universal health care system, sweeping LE reforms (DOJ all the way down), immigration reforms, media reforms, education reforms, $50,000 student loan forgiveness

Very little of is going to get past the most moderately conservative (how he self describes) Democratic Senators, like Manchin . Also Sinema and perhaps Kelly and Hickenlooper.

Perhaps, out of that list, immigration and media reforms can be done, but it will not be to a 100% progressive level. Zero chance on 50K usd student loan forgiveness (I do not see any getting passed, maybe, maybe a token 10K, but the new bill drops even that, see below), ending the filibuster, SCOTUS expansion, and universal healthcare (hell, I will be shocked if even a public option gets passed, and I have said that for the past 2 years, when it looked like we would have a clear majority in the Senate, as the voters are simply not there).



Biden’s Stimulus Proposal: No Student Loan Forgiveness

https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamminsky/2021/01/14/bidens-stimulus-proposal-no-student-loan-forgiveness/?sh=10bf20ee56d0

[Vivienne235729]

163. I know you're right but I am not expecting it right now. I am hoping over time

Like in the next 10 years we can make a real dent in something like a universal health care system which I know is not going to be Biden’s thing. He wants that corporate approach and I think that is much of what is wrong with healthcare. But just by him replacing trump’s people w his in places like LE and immigration, we should see substantial changes. But it shouldn’t stop there. I hope he makes a point of really cleaning it up. All of it. The DOJ, FBI, and everyone all the way down the chain.

Also, I don’t think it is a hard sell to properly fund education. I know it is a pipe dream of mine, but I’d like to see them get away from standardized testing. DeVoss and her ilk may have a heart attack over it, but they’ve made enough money off the backs of our children’s education. They can start w smaller things. If last week showed us anything, it is that we need to do a better job educating our kids. Hell, we should have education for adults, too, for that matter.

Maybe in 2 years, we’ll get more seats and can really make a dent. 🤞🏼

[ColoradoBlue]

96. Agreed

There is a time and a place to press for accountability and ensure he follows through on his campaign promises. But that's not now. He is inheriting a government that is effed up beyond all recognition. He needs our support. Let's give him a little time to right the ship we're on before we start complaining about how he hasn't built us a whole new fleet yet.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

97. It's a little bit like the parts of RW that now hate mcCONnell, Pence, and even McCarthy!

Not pure enough!

[MineralMan]

104. Yes. It's interesting, isn't it?

[cwydro]

99. Well said.

[marti]

100. Go Joe

So wish we could have a huge 2nd inauguration when it's safe! And show the world our support!

[Fiendish Thingy]

102. All elected officials should have their feet held to the fire by constituents

It’s not a matter of being dissatisfied, it’s a matter of ensuring our leaders deliver for us.

If we don’t hold their feet to the fire, you know who will be? Lobbyists and big donors.

It doesn’t have to be hostile or adversarial, just sincere and persistent.

[pnwmom]

123. No, they don't. Burned feet are hobbled. They slow a person down.

It is a terrible analogy that assumes that the office holder needs to be tortured to do their best meeting the demands of all their constituents.

[Fiendish Thingy]

127. Sorry you disagree with the metaphor, IMO a little heat is a good thing. Nt

[Barbara2423]

109. Joe can handle these "nut jobs""

This is not his first rodeo.

[Autumn]

152. This isn't his first rodeo and he happens to agree with those people you are calling "nut jobs"

who are saying Joe was talking about giving a $2,000 stimulus check.

Link to tweet

[notinkansas]

111. I have been complaining

about the inauguration plans, although I do not know to what extent Biden has authority over this.

I still believe - I don't care how many National Guard troops are there - that an open air inauguration is reckless and unnecessary. I think the safety of Biden and Harris should be the primary concern and it would be a no less meaningful inauguration if it were held in a safe location and broadcast.

[marie999]

112. I do not mind arguments here.

Biden is not president yet. Members of Congress should either talk to him in private or wait until there is a bill to vote on.

[C Moon]

114. Started seeing that a couple weeks ago. So fucking annoying.

[BlueJac]

119. He beat Trump...

Now that is a great start!

[marieo1]

120. Good Strong people

I hope and think President Biden and Vice-President Harris will overcome all the nonsense. They have lots of people supporting them and they both have dealt with negative circumstances and both are tough. I hope and pray I am not wrong, but I feel they will rise above the negatives and do what is right for our country!! I do think there are idiots that will want them to fail, part of the ones that invaded the congress - they will always be around. I just hope the New President and Mrs. Harris will be safe from haters and covid!!

[BarbD]

121. In support of your thoughts, I suggest the posters here read Obama's "A Promised Land."

It is a beautifully written account of the difficulties of his first term.

We Dems did not give him the back-up he needed once the election was over. Our expectations were totally unrealistic. He was a black man in a white man's world. I regret that after we fought to get him elected, we thought our citizen's responsibility was over and we could hand over the nation's problems for him to fix. We should have made his job easier. The challenges for Biden/Harris are much greater. We must find ways to support them -- especially in public.

We need to all row in the same direction.

[dianaredwing]

131. I agree with you

Even if Biden does absolutely nothing, which we know won't happen, he would be 1000% better than the destructive butt wart who stole the previous election. Everyone has too much time on their hands and has become a political 'expert,' knowing better than professionals what needs to be done. I'd sure hate to have them telling my doctor what was the correct procedure. Second guessing the coach before the team even takes the field is never a good idea. NOBODY gets EVERYTHING they want. Quit being such a bunch of whiny-babies and learn to cooperate with your own team. It's the least you can do. As my mother always said, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all, and we need to apply that to our own team. There is nothing nice to say about the trumpsters and their minions are lost so lets try to accentuate the positive and support Joe and Kamala. They've got one helluva mess to clean up and would be better served with volunteers to help than with pundits telling them how to do their jobs.

[Viz]

134. Not holding his feet to the fire...

That is not an accurate characterization of some discussions I have seen about making sure President Biden and the Democratic Party leadership puts forward that first legislation into simple easy bites that can pass a narrow Senate majority ( and House majority).

That might start with a stand alone bill with just the $2,000 stimulus checks that would get things moving and build some trust and real momentum. Its called thoughtful sequencing. This line of discussion you can find at The American Prospect written by David Dayen in his Unsanitized daily newsletter available for free. I think this kind of thoughtful discussion is so important and I do hope and even suspect that Biden, his team, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer are already considering.

The Democratic Policy-Smorgasbord Mistake
Democrats are talking themselves into trying to pass their entire agenda at once. There’s a far easier path.

[link:https://americanprospect.activehosted.com/social/877a9ba7a98f75b90a9d49f53f15a858.516]

[judesedit]

136. I think some of it is rethugs, foreign influence and/or bots. Of course, some is real as Americans

want the instant gratification they've gotten so used to. Dont buy into it. Biden has a mission. He doesn't have time for such bs

[mjvpi]

138. Isn't that how democracy is supposed to work? His address yesterday.....

was very Progressive. His economic vision on how to move us forward could have been Warren or Sanders. Called out income inequality as a serious hindrance to a strong America.

Democracy isn’t a spectator sport (nod to Thom Hartman). Challenging our leaders is how it works. Plus, I really believe that Fightin’Joe can hack it. Excuse me. That be President Fightin’ Joe.

[llashram]

142. all who are

dissatisfied with our next President, Joe Biden, hopefully, will learn some patience and discipline and unity. Joe Biden needs the backing of all of us now to clean up this huge mess the outgoing administration has purposefully caused. Left, centre, right that represents the Democratic Party and their constituencies, unity.

[progressoid]

145. So in 6 days, criticism can resume.

Got it.

[BamaRefugee]

148. Prepare for the tsunami ;-)

[betsuni]

158. K&R

[GulfCoast66]

160. And in the real world outside political websites, Americans don't give a shit.

I suspect Joe does not either.

[live love laugh]

162. This isn't new it's the standard for Democrats...a standard that we have to do away with.

I hope they’re prepared for the onslaught of critics.