Is there a historic prescedent for sercet pardons? Have they occured before?

[FSogol]

I asked yesterday in this thread, https://www.democraticunderground.com/100214957068
but DU followed its fine tradition of only reading the subject line.

Enquiring minds want to know!

[jimfields33]

1. No clue.

But apparently it’s legal to do so.

[unblock]

6. Legal in theory. In practice, a court would have to be convinced it was valid.

Which might be a challenge depending on how "secret" it was. If there's a government record that had been sealed, then no problem. But if there's no government record, they might be down to examining the physical pardon letter itself for clues as to authenticity....

[unblock]

2. Couldn't find anything federal, but in South Dakota,

Apparently there was a law that allowed a pardon to expunge all records, including the pardon itself, so it could be done in secret.

But that doesn't apply to federal pardons, there's no comparable law, and in any event that's probably a different scenario than most people think when they think of secret pardons. At least, I think of a president secretly delivering a pardon letter to someone who just puts it in a safe until needed.

No precedent from what I can find.

[empedocles]

3. 'fine tradition'

[dalton99a]

4. No

But it seems he can do it:

There is nothing in Article II, Section II, preventing President Trump from signing a document granting a pardon, and then putting the paper in a safe at any of his golf resorts. He is not even required to notify the recipient.

https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/534222-how-to-stop-trumps-secret-pardons

[TwilightZone]

5. Perhaps you could research it.

And get back to the group. Instead of sniping at DUers for not answering your question to your satisfaction.

Just a thought.

[FSogol]

10. The point of forums like DU is to gain other people's knowledge and experience. I was hoping someone

knew.

But thanks for the scolding.

[C_U_L8R]

7. Wouldn't the pardon have to be executed in some official way

Otherwise, who's to say whether there was a pardon or not? Anybody could claim they had a pardon. Or Trump could change his mind and deny there was ever a pardon... say if certain blackmail thresholds aren't met. All to say, if a pardon is granted in secret, is it a pardon at all?

[obamanut2012]

9. Yes, it can't just be stated there was one

These are official actions via an elected official.

[StarfishSaver]

12. Pardons don't have to be written or signed to be valid

Last edited Tue Jan 19, 2021, 10:23 AM - Edit history (1)

But there does have to be some evidence that it was granted. So a president would need to put it in writing or record it - especially if it's to be invoked after their term ends and it's too late for them to "regrant" the pardon if the previous one is found to be invalid.

Most likely, they would forward it to the Justice Department but just wouldn't include it on the publicly-releases list of pardons."

[StarfishSaver]

8. We don't know. Because they were SECRET!!!

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

It's possible that it's happened before and the pardon was only known to the executive granting it, the pardonee And maybe a prosecutor who was told about the pardon when they attempted to charge the person and then backed off of the prosecution.

But who knows?

Unfortunately, it does appear to be perfectly legal.

[FSogol]

11. Legal or not his pardon power disappears at noon tomorrow. He'll have to prove the pardon was issued

before that time. I'm not sure the secret pardon is legal, but it will be up to the courts to decide.

[StarfishSaver]

13. True

But there are ways to prove it was issued before the end of his term. Most likely, it would be submitted to the Justice Department along with the other pardons, but just not included on the list of pardons released to the public.

It can also simply be documented like any other time-sensitive legal instrument - put in writing, witnessed and/or notarized, etc.

[Iggo]

14. How would I know?

[Tarc]

15. I do not believe that they exist, tbh, this is a lot of bloviating

from media types that should know better.

Even if Trump is bypassing the normal DoJ procedures for pardons, it still surely had to be recorded somewhere.

Say in a year Donnie Jr. gets neck-deep in some corruption/bribery scandal at the federal level. He can just whip out a piece of paper with daddy's signature and say "screw you, prosecutors!" ? This is where my doubt about "secret pardons" creeps in, as Jr. would have to be able to prove that Trump Sr. signed and issued that while president, and not the day before.