A 70 yr old friend of mine is not planning to get the COVID vaccine.

[milestogo]

She is a retired health care worker and a devout Catholic. She is pro-life, and thinks the way vaccines are made (stem cells) goes against her values.

Does anyone know if this is true (stem cells are used in the production of vaccines), and if so is it true for all the available vaccines?

[DLCWIdem]

1. As far as I know the vaccine is made of antibodies from those who got Covid.

I don't think it's made of stem xells.

[Ms. Toad]

33. It is not made from antibodies

The two available now are made using mRNA - which trains our body to make fragments of the protein spikes, which attach to cells in our bodies. Our immune system recognizes the fragments as foreign and triggers an immune response.

Neither contain fetal stem cells, but both used the line used the fetal cell line HEK 293 in the confirmation phase to ensure the vaccines work.

[lapfog_1]

2. only the mRNA

tell her to get the J & J vaccine or the Oxford vaccine

no point trying to change her mind on the whole stem cell thing

[milestogo]

7. Thank you, thats very helpful.

Who is the maker of the mrna vaccine?

[LisaL]

11. mRNA vaccines are not made from stem cells.

mRNA is synthetic.

[lapfog_1]

20. both the Moderna and the Pfizer

vaccines are messenger RNA vaccines... it is likely the reason they are 95 % effective against SARS-Cov-2.

not only that, they can be easily tweaked against mutations of the virus ( if we need to). That said, the other successful vaccines are as effective in preventing death or serious illness as the mRNA.

I plan on getting the moderna vaccine myself.

[LisaL]

13. Absolutely false.

mRNA vaccines are not made using stem cells.

[lapfog_1]

19. I should have said "mRNA is used to manipulate stem cells"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1525001618305938

the facts will not matter to a 70 year old that always associates stem cells with aborted fetal tissue.

[LisaL]

21. Vaccines are not used for that purpose.

Vaccines are used to induce immunity. mRNA in vaccines are used to make spike protein. Immune system is then able to recognize spike protein if a person is infected with covid and put on a defense.

[lapfog_1]

22. none the less, the press has associated the technology with stem cells

and the "anti-vaxxers" have run with it

[Blue_true]

46. mRNA vaccines never relied on stem cells.

The only thing that has is the Regeneron that Trump took.

[Miguelito Loveless]

3. The Pope has already allowed this

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2020-12/vatican-cdf-note-covid-vaccine-morality-abortion.html

[Blue_true]

47. It doesn't matter. mRNA vaccines never relied on stem cells. nt

[Miguelito Loveless]

59. But that's just a fact of science

and you'll never convince the religiously insane, thus the edict of their leader.

[Blue_true]

62. I really am not interested in convincing them. I accept that I am in a moral struggle with them

where only one side will prevail.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Stem cells were not used in the development or manufacture of the existing vaccines.

https://www.uab.edu/news/youcanuse/item/11771-debunking-the-myths-about-the-covid-19-vaccine

[Celerity]

15. That's true for the only two it lists, the Pfizer & the Moderna vaccines, but at least 5 others do

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15034598

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. Those are the only two currently approved for use in the US

and therefore the only ones the OP's friend would be likely to get - so the only relevant info at this time.

[Celerity]

24. The Johnson & Johnson (likely soon approved in the US) and others do use them in the manufacturing

process (see my origianl reply) plus both the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines used them in testing leading up to the development (so I was too broad in my agreeing with that part of your reply). That said, the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines do not use them in their manufacture though and Catholic Organisations say those two are not morally compromised.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/how-cells-taken-decades-old-fetal-tissue-are-used-covid-n1242740




AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine is in Phase 3 trials in the US and also uses them for manufacture.

In four of the vaccines, the human fetal cells are used as miniature “factories” to generate vast quantities of adenoviruses, disabled so that they cannot replicate, that are used as vehicles to ferry genes from the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19. When the adenoviruses are given as a vaccine, recipients’ cells begin to produce proteins from the coronavirus, hopefully triggering a protective immune response.

The fifth vaccine, which has shown promise in monkeys and is headed for human trials as soon as this summer, is what is known as a protein subunit vaccine. Researchers at the University of Pittsburgh use HEK-293 cells to manufacture the coronavirus’ spike protein—a vital part of its structure—which is used to trigger an immune response. The vaccine is delivered through a skin patch with 400 tiny needles.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

25. If they're OK with the Pope they should be OK with the OP's friend.

I imagine there are quite a lot of drugs and treatments that use stem cell research or components that nobody even knows about.

[Celerity]

27. Yes, the first two should be fine for the friend of the OP, some of the others, no.

I personally think the entire thing is based off the madness that is the forced-birther, antiabortion stance that flows from religions (for the most part), but hardcore religious zealots are almost impossible to reason with.

[Ms. Toad]

35. Most reports I've seen indicate that stem cell lines were used

to confirm effectiveness.

However, both companies used the fetal cell line HEK 293 in the confirmation phase to ensure the vaccines work. All HEK 293 cells are descended from tissue taken from a 1973 elective abortion that took place in the Netherlands.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells#:~:text=When%20it%20comes%20to%20the,you%20receive%20from%20your%20doctor.)

[matt819]

5. Even if no stem cells

I would put money on the likelihood that she would come up with another reason to refuse the vaccine.

[MustLoveBeagles]

61. I think so too

[EarnestPutz]

6. Time magazine had a great article on the development of the vaccines. Neither of the two....

....current vaccines have anything to do with human DNA, let alone stem cells. The Moderna vaccine isn't even based on the natural RNA of the virus, but a synthetic version.

PDNIIDGTER

[Pobeka]

8. mrna vaccines Pfizer, Moderna do not use stem cells in production. They do use cells in testing.

According to this:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/january-web-only/covid-19-vaccine-christian-ethical-questions-fetal-cells.html

[Ms. Toad]

39. Not in production -

but in testing, which will matter for some people.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells#:~:text=When%20it%20comes%20to%20the,you%20receive%20from%20your%20doctor.)

[Blue_true]

48. The issue is that even if something uses a computer program that mimics

fetal stem cells for either development or testing purposes, fundamentalists are likely going to say that is immoral. Yet those same people worshipped the most immoral person that I have seen in my lifetime. A rational person reaches a point where it is wise just to say “screw you” to them. I honestly wish that someone comes up with a vaccine or cure for SARS-COV-2 where people that take it are totally protected and can’t be infected by the anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers and religious fundamentalists, in such a case, I would not care one iota if the fundamentalists, anti-vaxxers or anti-mask people took vaccines or wore masks

[Ms. Toad]

58. Facts matter.

If the question is whether fetal stem cells were used in developing the current vaccines, the answer is yes. Not to identify two steps of the path from idea to finished vaccine and assert that they weren't used in those two steps.

Facts matter. We should not be in the business of spreading alternative facts. We may not like how someone responds to facts. But telling somoene fetal cells were not involved in creating these vaccines is like telling someone there's no meat in a dish because we think their objections to eating meat are silly.

[Blue_true]

60. mRNA vaccines were not designed from anything involving stem cells.

It is one thing to design a vaccine using stem cells versus testing a vaccine designed independently of stem cells using the most reliable method of showing that those vaccines are safe for human use. Now, a person can say that distinction doesn’t matter, to them I say bullshit, it does matter as much as night versus day. I have no interest in catering to people that don’t respect facts at all, so if I slice things thin when dealing with them, so be it.

Beyond the above, the key reason why I have no use for those people or their claims, is their grotesque hypocrisy concerning life and it’s sanctity. They cherish a fetus, but are ok with with a child drowning with her father as both tried to escape brutal killers in their home country, or with their cherished leader separating families who were running for their lives, seeing us as their only safe harbor. They want children born that the parents can’t or won’t support financially, only to turn around and deny those same children medical care and nutritious food if they had their way.

Union General William T. Sherman was quoted as saying on waging war “You can not qualify war in harsher terms than I will”. Many fundamentalists, anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers take a harsh view toward that which they disapprove of, like it or not, I view people that value life as being in a moral and philosophical war with those people and kindness toward them only leads to more destruction.

[Ms. Toad]

64. You may disagree with whether the distinction matters

or whether the use of stem cells matter at all.

But facts are facts. These two vaccines would not be on the market without using stem cells in the process of testing them. When the question is whether stem cells were used in developing the vaccines the answer is yes. It is factual to clarify how they are used, but not to state that they were not used.

Whether you respect distinctions others make is opinion - everyone is entited to their own opinion. I'm not challenging your opinion - I am challenging the repeated (false) assertions (by many here) that the two vaccines on the market are free from the use of embryonic stem cells.

[Blue_true]

67. You make a reasonable point.

I know that in chemical mixtures, even if I use a trace of a chemical, I must list it in the ingredients list.

But the nonsense over cells that are only philosophically attached to the original ELECTIVE abortion that was done in the seventies is a bridge too far for me. I can have a Chemist synthesize a copy of a rare chemical from a plant, but once that is done, if the synthesis is done daily with no connection to the original plant, at what point does a rational person argue that there still is a relationship to the original plant?

[Ms. Toad]

68. When you're talking about moral beliefs it's a tough question.

At one time I was a vegetarian because I grew up on a farm and - even on a family farm that was run ethically by most standards - I found the cruelty to animals unacceptable (castrating pigs and calves without anesthesia, for example).

So if I want to be free from participation in that cruelty, where is the line?

Not eating meat is the easy question - but -

Can I wear leather? If the animal was killed recently to make whatever it is, probably not. But can I wear second-hand leather - that comes from animals who were killed decades ago (so nothing I can do can alter what happened to them - i.e. no new animals are being killed to make my shoes) - or is it better to put their hides to good use to at least ensure that they did not suffer only to have their skins tossed in the trash can?

Can I drink milk from grass fed cows who are allowed to roam free and gently milked by hand? If that seems OK, what about the calves that were born in order to generate that milk - must they be allowed to live their lives out running happily about a pasture, un-castrated, not dehorned, not ear tagged, not branded, not be slaughtered for food? Or would it be OK to slaughter them humanely (as long as we didn't inflict pain on them for our convenience - such as branding)?

Many on the left are passionate about how we treat animals - and wrestle with line drawing.

Even though I don't agree with the moral dilemma many on the right feel as to abortion, I recognize it as a similar dilemma. If they truly believe abortion is immoral (and some do), where is the line? That question - as to use of stem cells from a long ago voluntary abortion for testing - is equivalent to my question about the use of second-hand leather or how we treat the calves associated with milk production.

[Blue_true]

69. You posted some philosophical points for me to consider. I guess it is a fuzzy

line that a person’s sense of what is moral cause them to fall solidly on one side. What I don’t get is some of the people that oppose vaccines were perfectly ok with Trump getting Regeneron. The two approved vaccines have an minor association with stem cells, Regeneron depends on them, from what I understand of it. So, the issue seems to be application of selective morality in my mind, and that I resent heatedly.

[Ms. Toad]

70. I don't remember how close the connection with Regeneron was -

but there definitely was one. So - yeah. Anyone who approved of Trump getting Regeneron but is now opposing the vaccine becuase of the fetal stem cell connection is a hypocrite. I can't think of a way to approve of one, but not the other.

[Celerity]

9. Abortion opponents protest COVID-19 vaccines' use of fetal cells

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/abortion-opponents-protest-covid-19-vaccines-use-fetal-cells

snip


Cells derived from elective abortions have been used since the 1960s to manufacture vaccines, including current vaccines against rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis A, and shingles. They have also been used to make approved drugs against diseases including hemophilia, rheumatoid arthritis, and cystic fibrosis. Now, research groups around the world are working to develop more than 130 candidate vaccines against COVID-19, according to the World Health Organization; 10 had entered human trials as of 2 June.

At least five of the candidate COVID-19 vaccines use one of two human fetal cell lines: HEK-293, a kidney cell line widely used in research and industry that comes from a fetus aborted in about 1972; and PER.C6, a proprietary cell line owned by Janssen, a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson, developed from retinal cells from an 18-week-old fetus aborted in 1985. Both cell lines were developed in the lab of molecular biologist Alex van der Eb at Leiden University. Two of the five vaccines have entered human trials (see table, below).



In four of the vaccines, the human fetal cells are used as miniature “factories” to generate vast quantities of adenoviruses, disabled so that they cannot replicate, that are used as vehicles to ferry genes from the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19. When the adenoviruses are given as a vaccine, recipients’ cells begin to produce proteins from the coronavirus, hopefully triggering a protective immune response. The fifth vaccine, which has shown promise in monkeys and is headed for human trials as soon as this summer, is what is known as a protein subunit vaccine. Researchers at the University of Pittsburgh use HEK-293 cells to manufacture the coronavirus’ spike protein—a vital part of its structure—which is used to trigger an immune response. The vaccine is delivered through a skin patch with 400 tiny needles.

The fetal cell lines are key to producing both types of vaccine. “HEK-293 [cells] are essential for making protein subunit vaccines,” says Andrea Gambotto, a vaccine scientist at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine and the vaccine’s lead developer. Their human origin is important, he says: “Cultured [nonhuman] animal cells can produce the same proteins, but they would be decorated with different sugar molecules, which—in the case of vaccines—runs the risk of failing to evoke a robust and specific immune response.” (Among the developers of the five vaccines, only Gambotto responded to a request for comment.)

David Prentice, vice president and research director at the Charlotte Lozier Institute, which opposes abortion, notes researchers making adenovirus vaccines have modified HEK-293 cells to be adept at packaging new genes—such as those that direct cells to assemble the coronavirus spike protein—into adenoviruses. But he adds that other technologies are available, including using cells captured from amniocentesis that are engineered to make replication-deficient adenoviruses. “The use of cells from electively aborted fetuses for vaccine production makes these five COVID-19 vaccine programs unethical, because they exploit the innocent human beings who were aborted,” Prentice and a co-author—molecular biologist James Sherley, a Lozier Institute associate scholar and director of the adult stem cell company Asymmetrex—wrote in a position paper published last month.

snip

[milestogo]

12. Thank you.

[Celerity]

16. yw

[Blue_true]

49. Yet, those same people was ok with Trump taking Regeneron and getting it to his pals that got sick.

They are hypocrites and I am well passed done with them or their false concerns.

[LisaL]

10. Pfizer and Moderna are not made from stem cells.

They are made from synthetic mRNA surrounded by lipid.

[Ms. Toad]

41. While they are not made from stem cells-

Their effectiveness was confirmed using stem cells from the HEK 293 line.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells#:~:text=When%20it%20comes%20to%20the,you%20receive%20from%20your%20doctor.)

[ismnotwasm]

14. The fucking Pope got the vaccine

He’s the spiritual leader of Catholics.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

42. Yes, but he's a liberal lefty Argentine.

What would Benedict have done? We need to cast chicken bones to determine this.

[Blue_true]

50. My guess is Benedict got the vaccine shots. nt

[ismnotwasm]

63. Ha!

My daughter is always telling me “he’s not a liberal as people make him out to be” which is very true. We are all Catholic, well, not me, not really.

[Squinch]

18. Ugh. These people.

[Blue_true]

52. I wish there was a vaccine or cure that made people that took it

100% non-infectable by the idiots and fundamentalists, I would be perfectly ok then with them plying their BS.

[sanatanadharma]

23. They deny their God, those who reject the means made by men made in the

They deny their God, those who reject the means made by men made in the image and likeness of their God.
They fail to see the healing grace of wisdom and knowledge in vaccines.

They claim the creation is a gift of the creator and yet reject the cures made available by the minds, hands and resources within that gift.

The same people who will donate their mortal remains to the benefit of others, reject the donations made available to them by the other.

Serious failures of fact, logic and morality lead to seeing and fearing the snake in the grass.
Rational embrace of fact, logic and morality reveals the mistake of projecting a snake upon the reality of the lanyard on the lawn.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. Excellent observation - applies to a lot of things.

The logical extension of refusing to use the products of science because of some fear that God would disapprove would have us still living in caves in the dark.

[Blue_true]

54. As a Warm Deist, a core of my beliefs is than nothing that we can possibly

think up is outside the design that God has for us, that include use of fetal stem cells for healing. If God didn’t intent for us to use such a method, our minds would have been incapable of discovering it’s existence.

[dalton99a]

28. Pope Francis suggests people have moral obligation to take coronavirus vaccine

https://www.ncronline.org/news/vatican/pope-francis-suggests-people-have-moral-obligation-take-coronavirus-vaccine
Pope Francis suggests people have moral obligation to take coronavirus vaccine
Jan 11, 2021
by Joshua J. McElwee

Rome — Pope Francis suggested that people have a moral obligation to receive one of the new coronavirus vaccines as soon as possible, revealing in a new interview that he expects to get his own first dose this week.

"I believe that morally everyone must take the vaccine," the pontiff said in a Jan. 10 interview for Italy's TG5 news program. "It is the moral choice because it is about your life but also the lives of others."

The pope, who said he has already made an appointment with the Vatican's health service for his own inoculation, also lamented that some people are saying they will not take a vaccine.

"I do not understand why some say that this could be a dangerous vaccine," said Francis. "If the doctors are presenting this to you as a thing that will go well and doesn't have any special dangers, why not take it?"

---------------

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/14/europe/pope-francis-covid-19-vaccine-intl/index.html
Pope Francis and former Pope Benedict get first dose of Covid-19 vaccine
By Hada Messia, CNN
Updated 8:49 AM ET, Thu January 14, 2021

[Hekate]

53. Having a scientist for Pope turned out to be a good thing. nt

[northlake9]

29. No vaccine no visit

My wife and I have decided that no vaccine no visits, even members of the family. Our home our rules. Make the choice take responsibility.

[yellowdogintexas]

31. same here We have not been in the same room with any of his family since

last April.

One of his brothers (and his wife) are on the FWPD and I would suspect they are tested regularly to avoid spreading it. Their sister and the other brother are leaning towards not getting the vaccine; they are heavily influenced by hogwash, though

There is another brother in Tennessee who is exercising proper cautions.

[Mr.Bill]

30. Sometimes people who are just plain scared of needles

will go to great lengths to find a reason to avoid them. And that includes Nurses. Until about five years ago it included me. I volunteer at a hospital and about 20% of the employees are refusing the vaccine. Every year they refuse the flu shot even though that means they will have to wear a mask at all times in the hospital for the entire flu season. You would also be surprised at how many of hospital employees are smokers. They are not allowed to smoke on hospital property any more, so they walk a few hundred yards, go a cross the street and stand in a vacant lot and smoke during their breaks.

My wife is a retired RN and she tells me stories about patients who are covered with tattoos and have multiple facial piercings but are terrified to get a shot they need.

[LisaL]

36. How can someone be covered in tattoes and bs cared of needles?

[Mr.Bill]

38. I don't know,

but it happens.

[LisaL]

40. How did they get those tattos?

NT

[Mr.Bill]

43. Honestly, I think a small percentage of them

get some kind of sexual thrill out of having the pain inflicted on them.

[maxsolomon]

32. it's her funeral.

and maybe some other's, too.

[Blue_true]

55. I have gotten to the point with those people that even such a blunt assessment

relative to them is fine with me.

[maxsolomon]

65. there are going to be a % that refuse no matter what.

that aren't reachable through logic or pleading. because we're in an epistemological crisis of GOP/Trump/RW/Christofascist Putin-styled disinformation, it's going to be higher than it would otherwise.

not much to do about it but work around it.

[BGBD]

34. Ask her

How it is "pro-life" to put other people lives at risk my not getting vaccinated.

[winstars]

37. Great news, more vaccine for someone who hates Kool Aid!!!!

[mmbrevo]

44. When trump allegedly had COVID...

Wasn’t he given something that was derived from stem cells? Maybe she’s thinking of that.

[Blue_true]

56. Yes he was, Regeneron.

Lots of fundamentalists said that it was ok for him to have taken the treatment. The conditionality of their “morality” is sickening to watch.

[mmbrevo]

57. *sigh*

Hypocrisy.

[Blue_true]

45. I believe the only Covid treatment that involves stem cells is the

Regeneron that was given to Trump. The vaccines that President Biden and Vice President Harris took were designed without the use of stem cells.

I have gotten to the point where I am no longer yielding at all to fundamentalists, I am now more than willing to get into their faces, after seeing how they worshipped the most immoral person that I have seen in my lifetime.

You should confirm what I wrote about Regeneron, once that is done, I would get into your friend’s face and point out to her that ONLY Donald Trump has used a Covid product that was designed around stem cells, and that the mRNA vaccines that President Biden and Vice President Harris took never relied on stem cells, so she should take either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine to protect herself, doing so won’t violate any of her religious beliefs.

[Yeehah]

51. Your friend is an idiot

Try to reason with her and she likely will come up with some other kook excuse for not getting vaccinated,

[milestogo]

66. Your response shows your intolerance, insults me, and is totally unhelpful.