Manchin and Tester Joined the repubs to Overturn the Executive Order Re: Keystone Pipeline

[mucifer]

Two Democrats — Sens. Joe Manchin III (W.Va.) and Jon Tester (Mont.) — joined with Republicans to approve an amendment by Sen. Steve Daines (R-Mont.) aimed at overturning Biden’s move to block construction of the Keystone XL pipeline.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/02/04/senate-vote-a-rama-biden-economic-relief-stimulus/

[ananda]

1. Oh dear. That's very bad!

Arggh

[2naSalit]

2. Not surprised...

Coal & other mining, oil, timber and grazing are still controlling interests in these two states. Tester is usually on the appropriate side in many issues, this isn't one of them.

[Celerity]

3. FFS. Manchin, if he continues down the path he is on so far, will do more than any other person

to help us lose the Senate, lose the House, and ensure Biden is a one-termer. This goes far beyond this outrageous Keystone Pipeline shite.

[Fullduplexxx]

4. No 15 per hour and now the pipeline

[Celerity]

7. and more to come, he is or will block Biden promises (not Bernie level, but Biden, mainstream) to

such a point people will start to become disillusioned.

Manchin going around saying the cheques are too high and not targeted enough (meaning 1400 (let alone the whole 2000 usd argument) is too much, and anyone over 50K usd should not get a full cheque, which is a ludicrously low cut off) is DIRECTLY kneecapping Ossoff and Warnock.

[radius777]

17. Manchin is the Lieberman of this era.

Manchin endorsed Susan Collins, which IMO indicates by such an action he's not that concerned which party controls the Senate, just about the power of his 'problem solvers' caucus and the power they wield in the middle of negotiations.

Lowering the income to qualify for the stimulus check is something the GOP would love as it would only serve to divide our base, which is heavily urban and suburban, where salaries can be higher but cost of living is much higher as well. Biden only won the swing states because he overperformed in urban/suburban areas - not because he did much better than Hillary in the rurals - which have been trending redder and redder towards the Trump direction.

[Celerity]

18. +1 great short, concise breakdown of one of our key structural weak points that Manchin is hurting

[Tom Rinaldo]

22. Except that Lieberman was from Connecticut

where it is very possible to regularly elect not only Democrats, but progressive Democrats to the Senate. Look at who represents Connecticut not. In fact Lieberman only won his last term in the Senate by running as an Independent, with much covert Republican support, AGAINST a Democrat who had beaten him in the Democratic primary for the Democratic nomination.

[Fullduplexxx]

6. No 15 per hour and now the pipeline Manchin the fkg fredo of the dem party

[ananda]

11. Doesn't a minimum wage increase need its own bill?

I think they can still push through a minimum wage increase,
though it's likely to end up in the $11-13 an hour range,
which is better than nothing anyway.

[Fullduplexxx]

12. What upset me is that he said no to this and not just this

It's overturning keystone , no to 15 main wage he wants to means test the 1400 . With This one democrat who needs the republican party

[ananda]

15. Yeah, Manchin is definitely a sticky cog.

We need to work really hard to elect more good Dems
in 2022!

[NurseJackie]

13. He is who he is. Learn to live with it. Be happy he's a Democrat (I am!)

Enough of the hate and hand-wringing. Without him, there would be a Republican in his seat, the split would be 49-51 ... a two-vote deficit.

[Celerity]

14. He needs to stop blocking Biden's agenda, simple as that, as it quite possibly will have disastrous

effects far beyond one Senate seat that is up in 2024.

[NurseJackie]

19. This type of rhetoric and scapegoating serves no good purpose.

Manchin, if he continues down the path he is on so far, will do more than any other person to help us lose the Senate, lose the House, and ensure Biden is a one-termer.

I wish he would vote differently too. But I can assure you of one thing: This type of rhetoric and scapegoating serves no good purpose. He's voting/saying/doing what he needs to do to hold on to his seat and not be voted out of office. It's West-fucking-Virginia for pete's sake. Everyone knows this and everyone knows what it means. He's walking a very fine line. Efforts to demonize him and scapegoat him all but ensure that HE will be gone next time... and the fact of the matter is this... we NEED him.

[Celerity]

23. It is not scaoegoating, as he is the one actually doing this, whether single handedly or

leading the charge (depending on the issue). One Senate seat (which is very problematic anyway, given that he was probably only or at least in a large part, re-elected due to the one-off 2018 Blue Wave) that is around 4 years off in terms of election is NOT worth hurting the rest of our Party in the 2022 midterms, hurting Biden overall, and hurting the nation (as he is and likely will continue to block vital parts of Biden's agenda) to a large degree.

Please explain how Manchin blocking multiple parts of Biden's agenda (including parts that would have helped the vast bulk of one of the poorest states in the US) is going to help him get re-elected 4 years from now.

He is knee-capping so many in our Party, with an immediate example being Ossoff and Warnock, who both made the 2000 usd cheques at the same level as last time (along with Biden himself who went down and campaigned for them and also made that a centrepiece of his speeches) a bedrock part of their campaign. Same for the 15 USD minimum wage, which Manchin (and Manchin alone as far as I can tell) opposes.

[radius777]

24. +1. WV is 'red' mainly due to cultural issues,

but is a fiscally populist state where even the GOP governor wants the bigger stimulus.

Sinema and Manchin think they're being bipartisan but voters don't care about bipartisanship (even though they say they do). Voters care about results for their family and their bank account - and if their leaders fail to deliver this they will simply view the party in power as ineffective and vote them out. McConnell understands this which is why he hopes to blockade or water down everything Biden wants (and trick conservative Dems into going along with him in the name of 'bipartisanship) just like he did with Obama.

[NurseJackie]

26. Oh brother! GMAFB, will ya?

as he is the one actually doing this, whether single handedly or leading the charge

Lord.

Please explain how Manchin blocking multiple parts of Biden's agenda (including parts that would have helped the vast bulk of one of the poorest states in the US) is going to help him get re-elected 4 years from now.

Don't play games with me. You're much smarter than you're pretending to be by asking that question.

Same for the 15 USD minimum wage, which Manchin (and Manchin alone as far as I can tell) opposes.

Politics is all about compromise and incremental gains. It involves making sacrifices, give-and-take, and finding common ground. The impatient "gotta-have-it-right-now" purity folks are creating more division and doing more harm that Manchin.

Of course everyone would love to have everything right-fucking-now... but that's just not a very realistic way to look at things. It's naive to believe that such things will happen simply because we demand them, or because some among us believe that scapegoating Manchin will somehow make things better. (It won't.)

You know perfectly well that he's doing exactly what he needs to do to please (and represent) his constituents... the ones who voted for him... the ones who know FULL WELL who he is and what he thinks/believes.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to break it to ya... but with Manchin, you just have to take the bad with the good. He is who he is. You get what you get. In spite of his flaws, there's a lot of good to be had, and we're in a much better position WITH him than without him.

But, if it makes people feel good to demonize him and kneecap HIS future in the party (which, in-turn, harms Democrats) then there's nothing I can do to stop it. All I can do, instead, is to point out the folly of such actions. He's doing the best he can do under the circumstances. Efforts to weaken him mean that he'll be able to do even LESS. So why would anyone want to do/say things that make it MORE difficult for him?

[Celerity]

31. not playing games at all, and I am not buying what you are spinning at all

Don't play games with me. You're much smarter than you're pretending to be by asking that question.

That is a dodge of my question about WV and how Manchin's blocking helps him there, 4 years from now.

.

You said (about the 15 usd ph minimum wage)

Politics is all about compromise and incremental gains. It involves making sacrifices, give-and-take, and finding common ground. The impatient "gotta-have-it-right-now" purity folks are creating more division and doing more harm that Manchin.

Purity test???? LOLOLOL, unless supporting what basically EVERY SINGLE Democrat (Biden and all of the House and Senate) except for Manchin supports is now 'a purity test'. Ridiculous use of the 'purity test' dodgy meme. Also, the 15 usd was always going to to be incrementally phased in, Manchin doesn't even support that.


you said

I'm sorry to be the one to have to break it to ya... but with Manchin, you just have to take the bad with the good. He is who he is. You get what you get. In spite of his flaws, there's a lot of good to be had, and we're in a much better position WITH him than without him.

But, if it makes people feel good to demonize him and kneecap HIS future in the party (which, in-turn, harms Democrats)

What good does it do to perhaps (and you still have not told me how his voting to block Biden's agenda helps him to actually do this) have ONE senate seat retained (and the odds are a coin toss at best, as WV is crazy deep Trumpian red, and there will likely be no one-off Blue Wave in 2024, at least not to the extent of 2018) 4 years from now IF Manchin's actions blow out large chunks of Biden's agenda, parts which ALL (or all but 1 or 2 others out of hundreds of Dems) the rest of the party and our POTUS support?

IF we fail on large fundamental promises and it comes down to Manchin alone being the blocking force, then yes (regardless of you protestations) he is responsible for that. It could well help spell our doom in the upcoming 2022 midterms (the last 2 first midterms for Dem POTUSs have been disasters,1994 and 2010) and it could well hurt Biden's chances in 2024. It is madness to try and spin all that away by using dome dodgy 'purity test' framing about one seat 4 years down the road, AND with no explanation how his blockage even aids him (or helps his constituents).


You said

. Oh brother! GMAFB, will ya?

Pass, and perhaps you do it.

[NurseJackie]

33. There's no need for me to answer questions you already know the answer to...

That is a dodge of my question about WV and how Manchin's blocking helps him there, 4 years from now.

No it's not. There's no need for me to answer questions you already know the answer to. And even if your question is sincere, it doesn't take a genius to figure out the answer on one's own.

Ridiculous use of the 'purity test' dodgy meme.

I'm not the one who's demonizing and denigrating Manchin. I'm not the one who's demanding that he act, speak and vote as if he was a senator from some New England state. --- You know perfectly well that's not who he is... that's not where he lives... and that's not who he represents.

Sorry, the next part of your post got to be too muddy and jumbled to follow. Just words words words in a series of run-on sentences. But it appears to be another rant that demonizes Manchin and preemptively scapegoats him for things he hasn't done yet, and things that have not happened yet. Unfortunately, doing such things only serve to weaken him and diminish him in the eyes of his constituents. That certainly doesn't make it easier for him to go against their wishes, or to do anything OTHER than what he's already promised he'd do. Whether it helps his constituents or not is a different matter. Many of them don't care. They want what they want and they want Manchin to do what he said he'd do. They know who he is, and if he suddenly becomes something different, then he'll be gone.

The meaning of your last sentence remains a mystery to me.

All I'm trying to say is that Joe Manchin is who he is. It's the reality of where we are. Whining about it won't change anything. Demonizing him won't change anything. Kneecapping him and scapegoating him won't change anything. It only weakens him. Why do that?

All this hand-wringing and grinding of teeth serves no good purpose. Be thankful for what we've got. That's the BEST we can hope for coming out of West Virginia. All this energy could be better spent in making sure that some reasonable Republican makes better choices. Or the energy could be used to flip the seat of a vulnerable, weak or retiring Republican. I simply see no good reason for us to be eating our own like this... even Joe Manchin.

At least he doesn't smear, denigrate and attack Democrats... you know what I mean? That's a big bonus for him and one of the reasons I like and respect him.

[Celerity]

34. again with the spin

I'm not the one who's demanding that he act, speak and vote as if he was a senator from some New England state.

No one is doing this. He is voting to block (on certain things) what the ENTIRE rest of the Party (including Biden, but perhaps, on a few things, the exception of Sinema) is for. All for what purpose? It pusts our entire majority in both the House and the senate at risk and handcuffs Biden as well.


As for the rest, you are just re-hashing blustery ad hominem and continual false-faming. You always try and taint other posters' replies via framing like

All this hand-wringing and grinding of teeth

You try and control the narrative and make others look bad by painting legitimate disagreements with such tosh as

Whining about it won't change anything. Demonizing him won't change anything. Kneecapping him and scapegoating

when they (and me in this case) are pointing out real potential dangers.

You are not the gatekeeper of what is and what isn't legitimate criticism, as much as you try and elevate yourself to this level.

You also, ironically, do the exact same thing you are accusing me and others of when it comes to politicians in the Dem caucus who you yourself do not like.

We are NOT scapegoating, kneecapping, demonizing, we are pointing out stances and votes and posturing by him that is against basically the entire rest of the Party.

One man is NOT bigger than the collective rest of the Party, especially when there is no direct causational linkage (show me some) between these blocking stances on the subjects at hand and his almost 4-years-away re-election chances.

His blockages on these issues are not intrinsically necessary for him to win again. They WILL however, if they continue, seriously hurt our collective chances to retain our majorities, plus will hurt millions of Americans.

The average voter is not going to go down into the deep weeds of congressional votes and say, 'Wow, Manchin had to do it or he might have lost in 4 years!' and then say 'So, all those promises you failed at keeping? Well, I forgive your party breaking them and i will vote even more enthusiastically in 2022 and 2024.'

That line of thinking is simply not a solid take on the things.

Our entire main thrust in the two GA run-offs was 'give us the Senate and we will pass this and this and this, etc etc and all will be far better'

There was no 'only if Joe Manchin deems it so' caveat'.

He likely is thwarting the will of the entire rest of the party (including Biden) in some cases (or in others helping lead the thwarting).

That will have serious consequences for us as a whole IF he keeps it up.

It is a matter of size of impacts (a hypothetical effect on his 4 years off re-election versus the rest of the party and the nation in the here and now and in 2022).

Finally,

I am immune to your style of posting.

Go try with someone else.

My posts all stand.

[NurseJackie]

36. Nobody made such a claim.

You are not the gatekeeper of what is and what isn't legitimate criticism, as much as you try and elevate yourself to this level.

Nobody made such a claim. (Except maybe that strawman over there.)

You also, ironically, do the exact same thing you are accusing me and others of when it comes to politicians in the Dem caucus who you yourself do not like.

This makes zero sense.

We are NOT scapegoating, kneecapping, demonizing, we are pointing out stances and votes and posturing by him that is against basically the entire rest of the Party.

That's exactly what's happening... and it's ridiculous.

One man is NOT bigger than the collective rest of the Party,

Nobody said he was. But reasonable people know exactly how this works. Honestly, I think that efforts like this to BULLY him into submission will only make him dig-in his heels even harder. That doesn't seem to be a smart way to negotiate or find common ground. The old "my way or the highway" philosophy seldom works to our advantage, as we'll all soon find out.

He likely is thwarting the will of the entire rest of the party (including Biden) in some cases (or in others helping lead the thwarting).

His positions are not going to change. He is a very conservative Democrat who represents a VERY red state. I think that people might try thinking of Manchin as a "Republican who happens to caucus with the Democrats". That should make it easier to accept reality... and to be THANKFUL for what we've got.

That will have serious consequences for us as a whole IF he keeps it up.

This is the reality we must live with. None of the whining or handwringing will change it.

Our entire main thrust in the two GA run-offs was 'give us the Senate and we will pass this and this and this, etc etc and all will be far better'

Okay. It's not as though anyone should be shocked or surprised at how Manchin votes. People making those promises knew in advance what he was all about and what the senate would look like. It simply makes no good sense to hold him responsible for promises made by others in Georgia.

There was no 'only if Joe Manchin deems it so' caveat'.

Perhaps there should have been. Lessons learned, eh? It's not that hard to count. But, that's politics, aint' it? Everyone ALREADY knew what the break-down and makeup of the senate would be.

I am immune to your style of posting. Go try with someone else.

It's not about me. Yet, I get a response every time. Every single time. (Interesting, no?)

[StarfishSaver]

27. This

[Cosmocat]

25. If it was not for Joe Manchin Joe Biden literally would not be able to seat a federal judge

McConnell would have 100% prevented Joe from seating even a single judge.

He also would have forced Joe to spent the whole next two years fighting to get his cabinet picks and other appointed positions that the Senate has to approve.

I get the frustration, but America 2021, the "middle" is in the democratic party.

The alternative to not accepting Manchin is letting the critical mass of insanity that is right wing fascism carry the day.

[Klaralven]

5. Good, we can drive our imports from OPEC and the Middle East to zero

[Celerity]

10. and destroy the environment around the drilling areas and the pipeline itself, and encourage

fossil fuel-driven global climate change.

yay!

[theaocp]

16. AFAIK, the oil doesn't go to us.

It goes THROUGH us. If the Dems care about this, they'll get it dealt with. If not, it will go into the pile of, "Oh, well," and wait for the spills and environmental damage.

[Klaralven]

29. Currently our net imports of crude is 2 to 3 million barrels per day.

Our net exports of refined products is about the same.

So at present, you can think of the Canadian crude displacing other imported crude and being exported as refined products.

However, I doubt that US fracked production will continue at the current high levels, and therefore, our crude imports will have to rise. Fracked wells go dry much faster that the conventional wells of decades past. The fracking boom will be fairly short lived and fade in the 2030s.

Weekly Imports & Exports

https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_wkly_dc_NUS-Z00_mbblpd_4.htm

[Jamesyu]

8. I think those amendments are non-binding

At the end when the bill is passed.

[lagomorph777]

28. +1 I doubt this amendment will ever be enacted.

[Mr. Ected]

9. Is that why Tester visited the White House the other day?

Unfortunate, to say the least. I want to hear "the rest of the story".

[DarthDem]

20. Incorrect on two counts

First, the amendments are all non-binding. Nothing says they have to appear in the final bill. Manchin and Tester were just messaging and will not refuse to vote for the final bill lacking this measure.

Second, at the end of the votearama, a substitute amendment is offered to streamline the process. That happened here, and the Keystone amendment was removed. So it actually never happened. Just theater.

[Roisin Ni Fiachra]

21. Putting Manchin in as Chairman of Energy and Natural Resources.

What could possibly go wrong?

[lagomorph777]

30. WV is perfectly situated to become a renewables powerhouse.

They have many flattened mountain tops, perfect for siting wind farms to feed electricity to the Mid Atlantic region.

They also have a big pool of labor to build and maintain those sites, made available by the demise of coal.

Maybe somebody should point that out to Manchin. He could become the Green Senator Byrd, funneling billions to WV (with all the positives and negatives that implies).

[Hotler]

32. Stop picking on Joe, we need him. nt

[Iggo]

35. Manchin. I told you guys.

He is the most powerful Dem in the split Senate, because he'll vote with the other side whenever he wants.