So when does this start to hurt Manchin

[Boydog]

and his state. WV is a state that depends on federal funding. Is this getting to be a woodshed moment

[PJMcK]

1. The President should have a chat with the Senator (n/t)

[AKwannabe]

2. Concur! nt

[theneworiginal]

62. My recollection is that WV is perhaps the state receiving the most federal money.

I remember a chart showing the "socialistic" benefit or burden by each state. Needless to say, the Red states seemed ok with getting the lions share of the federal government handouts. Some were massive and I think WV was right up there.

[dflprincess]

70. And he may want to channel LBJ when he does it. nt

[Trueblue1968]

72. And he may want to channel ME when he does it. I would take NO nonsence!!

I am woman hear me Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!

[dflprincess]

73. I think you would be the perfect choice!

[Trueblue1968]

75. Thanks for the vote of confidence Princess. Just as my hubby how loud my ROAR is.

[FSogol]

3. Never. That said, it should be really easy to get Manchin to go along with more progress actions.

There are only 65,000 coal jobs in the US. Get a Federal program to aid coal workers to find green energy jobs.Create a program for coal states to create green energy jobs. With only 65kpeople, it wouldn't even be that expensive of a program.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

4. Manchin is from a state that is pretty deeply red at this moment

He's the last Dem left from a different era, much as Ben Nelson was in Nebraska.

The reality: Manchin holds the cards here. It'd be dirt simple for him to become I-WV and caucus with the Republicans or R-WV. At that point, nobody Biden nominates gets appointed.

[pamdb]

5. $11 vs $15

I hate to say it, but I’m more stressed out about keeping our slim majority in the senate and between Patrick Leahy being 80, not mention Bernie, I’m getting concerned Manchin might switch to the Republican Party. I mean he’s sort of straddling the line as it is. And then there’s that Kristen Sinema in AZ who’s also against it. Manchins talking about $11 in two years and then,if we still have the house and senate, going back. I don’t know...

[Wounded Bear]

11. Sounds like BS...

the current plan would have MW at $11 in two years, IIRC. The $15 doesn't kick in for 4-5 yrs.

[MichMan]

6. Back in the day,the FBI would be tasked to find some personally damaging info for blackmail purposes

[still_one]

7. When we have a majority of two or more votes in the Senate

[kairos12]

8. Truth. n/t

[hlthe2b]

9. His positions that turn a blind eye to white male Trump officials while judging female qualified

minority Biden nominees unworthy--for their previous so-called "harsh tweets"--will hurt him. How can his Democratic colleagues trust him?

Yes, we need him, despite his using his newly found "power" in ways that really hurt his own party. And yes, no one needs to remind me that he is what is electable in WV. But that may change if he causes the COVID bill to fail, over the minimum wage that I have to believe his own constituents strongly support.

Still, this evidence of blatant misogyny and bias is extremely disturbing to me. He's on our side and we need to "support" him to the extent possible, I suppose, but all things are not equal

[JoanofArgh]

17. Well stated.

[Hortensis]

10. No, of course Manchin and WV are fine. WV LIKES Manchin and reelected

him in 2018 -- even though they'd elected Trump by a giant margin of OVER 40% (!) in 2016 and state government is run by a Republican trifecta -- governor and both chambers ALL controlled by Republicans. But Manchin's mix of half-liberal/half conservative progressivism a majority of West Virginia voters like. The rest vote Republican.

Manchin will run again in 2024, and until then he represents the people of his state -- not a bunch of far left, illiberal, antidemocratic opponents of representative government come in to make trouble from outside.

People should ask themselves why these anti-democratic AND anti-Democratic wingers, as contemptuous of others as any trumpist, keep targeting Democrats in office -- instead of a very long list of Republican criminals. If they'd succeeded in taking out Manchin in 2018, right now McConnell would still rule the senate, by 51-49. Instead, the people of WV handed these illiberal leftists their asses and rightly so. Thank goodness.

[Fiendish Thingy]

14. I don't think WV likes Manchin as much as they did in 2018- constituent groups are confronting him

On his obstruction threats, especially around minimum wage. I don’t think he is a shoo-in for re-election in 2024, no matter what party he belongs to at that time.

[BGBD]

48. Please

Progressives have come after him before and got obliterated.

If you think that's the case then you just don't have an understanding of WV politics. Manchin has to offer resistance to be reelected. Voting 100% for a president that lost the state by 40 points is the sure way to lose.

[hlthe2b]

15. As long as he is defending the views of his constituecy, yes. He's moving away from that with

his opposition to the minimum wage increase and his putting the entire COVID-response bill at risk. Business in WV may like that, but the rank and file West Virginian does not.

His ability to be a contrarian, for whatever reason does have its limits. Something he may discover if he continues to oppose those policies favored by the majority of his state. I certainly don't advocate primarying him nor outside groups coming to WV to incite against him. But, there is a limit, and his newly found disproportionate power he wields may cost him if he does not do so wisely.

[Hortensis]

20. He's serving a VERY BROAD CONSTIUENCY, and a position that disappoints

many is one that is insisted on by many others. There is no one constituency who want anything.

But WV Republican voters have filling almost every position in the state with Republicans since 2000! And that should tell anyone that, if one constituency did rule, it sure as hell would NOT be WV's Democrats, much less a socialist fringe funded and directed by outsiders.

Right now the majority Republican voters believe the RW usual about a minimum wage increase taking away what are already too few jobs. They've always believed that, because like Republicans in every other state, they're long trained to oppose anything Democrats propose.

Bottom line, THIS IS A CONSERVATIVE-DOMINATED STATE WITH PROGRESSIVE LEANINGS. Manchin's so far provided WV voters with a mix they approve.

Schumer and Biden are working hard with Manchin to continue his successful run. Why would anyone who wasn't an anti-Democratic Party zealot himself support efforts to kick over all OUR buckets?

[hlthe2b]

23. You keep stating what we all know as though you think we fellow DUers are stupid or the "enemy."

But Manchin's constituency has spoken out against his recent positions (esp minimum wage increase) and his last election was quite close compared to previous statewide elections for him.

So repeating that his is a conservative-dominated state many times does not change the facts nor obviate the need to SERVE that constituency and even former Trump-supporters recognize positions that hurt the little guy over big business. And yes, DUers are allowed to critique the policies of elected Democrats. That does NOT equate to not supporting Dems no matter how often you suggest otherwise.

[Hortensis]

30. We are in an era of extremist resurgence. Reality always has been

that troubled times cause anxious people to turn to extreme alternatives. And therein lies disaster.

Do I believe those who tried to turn the U.S. over to fascist and socialist revolutionaries 80 years ago were stupid?

You bet. Sincerity, idealism based on ignorance, anger, and fear are no excuse.

Do extremists use DU along with all other conduits to people on the left for implanting disaffection, fear, and lies about what socialism is and how the Democratic Party fails them? You bet. Right here.

No one is asking WHY they're angry at WV's senator who votes with Democrats half the time -- INSTEAD OF 50 REPUBLICAN SENATORS who vote against Democrats and betray their nation almost 100% of the time.

We know who's behind WV voters' rejection of minimum wage increases. But WHO'S behind this trumped-up passion for getting rid of a Democratic senator? What's their REAL motive?

Do I think Democrats who haven't asked themselves those questions really, really should? You bet. Because no one genuinely committed to raising the minimum wage would dream of taking out a Democrat in high office. What's in it for them to turn Democrats against Democrats in office? They're lying.

[hlthe2b]

31. Seems you are lumping us all into the RW creation of what "socialism" is and making DU the enemy

[Hortensis]

36. Sorry that's your take. I'd of course love to hear you

were shocked at the idea that the goal is to take out Manchin because he's a vulnerable Democrat.

It's certainly not because he's far, far more progressive, moderately conservative, and liberal on many social issues, than every Republican in the senate, or the Republican who would certainly replace him. Btw, have you read anything about the Republican that would be? The list of possibilities is very short.

But in any case, we all share our thoughts with everyone who comes by.

[hlthe2b]

37. Since when is THAT the goal? I contest that strongly. You may point to an individual poster or two

but that hardly makes it THE GOAL. There are far better ways to bring Manchin back into the fold in mutually beneficial ways (for both him and his constituency) than primarying him. That's what I see others arguing.

[Hortensis]

38. Oh, I didn't say YOU're leading this effort to take out

a Democratic senator, or that your positions on this subject aren't what you believe them to be.

I'm talking about end goals of the group(s) behind this. Btw, do you know who they are? And who's funding them, including RW funders? Back in 2016, Russia was assisting illiberal subversion of those elections, mostly through social media augmentation of their messages. Is that still on?

When the United States Senate was in danger of falling to Democratic control in 2016 and 2020, when its makeup is now 50-50, when in only 2 years that could change either way, the stakes were and are enormous for everyone in our nation and every other nation.

[hlthe2b]

39. Well aware of what went on in 2016. What evidence do you have this conspiracy is going on

among DUers on this board or elsewhere specifically targeted to Manchin or other Dems? Facebook would not surprise me, but pointing figures here?

[bigtree]

40. you use the word 'illiberal' to demean progressives

...here you use it to suggest progressive messaging is a Russian plot.

Tired of this bashing of the left from you, all the while complaining of some disunity.

[Hortensis]

44. I'm progressive and not demeaning myself. Illiberal refers to

"opposed to liberal principles; restricting freedom of thought or behavior."

Some politicians call the folk illiberals influence "purists," and roll illiberal extremists in with the whole, but I have the luxury of being a private citizen and able to call a tendency to extremist thinking, or outright extremist nuttery, what it is.

In this case, we're talking about people so rigid and narrow in their thinking that they're not only unable to see or care that more than one viewpoint is valid, with its own set of costs and benefits, but that they believe they have a special right, even duty, to impose their beliefs on everyone else. They're, mercifully, always small minorities, but for them that means the will of majorities is a constant problem to overcome, never a guiding principle.

The illiberal trumpists have been lead down that same sorry extremist rabbit hole. They call themselves patriots and defenders of the constitution, but in order to save our nation they have to overset elections won by majorities who don't deserve to have their votes counted.

Needless to say, this is extreme thinking.

And from this comes another word used to describe people who realize they can't win through fair elections so work to stack government with their agents, subvert elections, even cause disruptions in society, instead: anti-democratic. The anti-democratic left can only win by overcoming the will of the people.

If none of this describes you, I'm not talking about you or anyone else it doesn't.

I am talking about the kind of people who helped, and then after losing the primary actively tried, to throw the 2016 election to the Republicans out of their usual anger and spite at always losing -- but only out of the highest principles of course. The sooner our nation, or at least the Democratic Party collapses, the sooner they can take over. Of course that'll never happen, but that they believe they can make it happen is defining. Very seriously, they're always a valuable tool for those who just might be able to.

[bigtree]

45. I know what the word means, I'm sure you don't

...and you've used it several times to describe progressives you disagree with.

Like the 'hostile left' you termed in a response to me, 'illiberal left' is an invention of yours which is a broad-based smear of people outside of your political comfort zone. No matter that you describe yourself as a 'progressive,' or insist your slur only applies to some and not others.

You lumped 'illiberal' liberals together with 'illiberal' conservatives here in a convenient array of opposition to whatever you're defending (in this case, it's a conservative Democrat opposing his newly elected president's nominees based on FOX news propaganda).

illiberal
opposed to liberal principles; restricting freedom of thought or behavior.
"illiberal and anti-democratic policies"

[Hortensis]

46. No purpose in continuing. I'll leave you to hopefully

wake and wonder in those troubling moments in the middle of the night what perversion of purpose has lead some right here on DU to think they should support the removal of a progressive Democratic senator in a red state.

Peculiar way of advancing progressivism in government. To put it mildly.

[bigtree]

47. you know well that any Democratic opponents are talking about primary election efforts

...and that what you're doing here is insisting he's the best and only candidate who can hold the seat.

All the while making like anyone who dares criticize the great and powerful senator from WVa. is auguring to turn the seat red.

Hyperbolic nonsense.

I'm left wondering why anyone would defend a Democratic senator promoting right wing republican propaganda against our Democratic president's nominees, insisting they're defending a senate seat that's not up until '24.

[hlthe2b]

26. Dupe. I responded to your first post.

[Lasher]

18. Manchin didn't even win a majority in 2018.

Manchin (D) 49.57%
Morrisey (R) 46.26%
Hollen (L) 4.17%

[Hortensis]

25. It gets better:

The Republican Party runs WV, holding almost all elective offices.

Wickipedia: In 2008, John McCain defeated Barack Obama 55–42%. In 2012, Mitt Romney defeated President Obama 62–35%. Romney won every single county. In 2016, Donald Trump won the state by a greater than 40-point margin against Hillary Clinton (68–26%), with Clinton's performance the worst by either party in the state's history. Trump won every county in the state as well.

Concurrent with President Trump's landslide victory in the state, ... Democrats also lost almost all of the statewide offices they held except for State Treasurer John Perdue who was reelected. ... These Republican leanings resulted in Manchin being ranked by many outlets to be one of the most vulnerable incumbents up for reelection.

As the percentages show, Manchin won in 2018, but the Republican did much better than in 2012.

And now both the Republicans Party and the anti-Democratic socialists have great hopes of taking out WV's Democratic senator in 2024. An alliance of big party with tiny-but-real insurgents that in 2016 took out hundreds of Democratic candidates, including HRC, and filled the nation's governments and judiciary with hard-core corrupt Republicans.

[Lasher]

51. Tell me about it.

I am surrounded by a cesspool of Trump cult followers. It seems unlikely that Senator Manchin will be reelected no matter what he does.

[Hortensis]

53. Ouch. Well, they're all worked up now, but...he has until 2024.

Btw, I know something about what "surrounded by a cesspool of Trump cult followers" feels like. I passed disgust a long time ago and let my husband stop to look in on those neighbors without me.

[marmar]

24. "not a bunch of far left, illiberal, antidemocratic opponents of representative government"

?????

[hlthe2b]

27. Makes one wonder, doesn't it?

[Celerity]

61. Yes it does.

[BradAllison]

68. Mark Kelly doesn't seem to have these issues

And he's from a state that teeters on being red.

Very interesting statement about what one thinks of very boilerplate Democratic policy.

[BradAllison]

67. So every Senator from a blue state who has no objection to these policies is ......

beholden to a bunch of far left, illiberal, antidemocratic opponents of representative government.....

Got it.

[Fiendish Thingy]

12. Did you mean woodshed as in "take him out behind the woodshed"?

The timing of that moment is up to Biden and Schumer.

WV will feel the impact as soon as Manchin votes to obstruct a bill or an appointee. Already, constituent groups are attempting to hold his feet to the fire.

As far as hurting Manchin himself, other than consequences from the party, Manchin is immune from consequences at the moment. However, if he follows through and obstructs Biden, his senate career will end in 2024, no matter what party he belongs to at that point- he won’t even win his primary.

[Boydog]

49. I'm all about unity and I believ unity starts

With members of our own party. I think Biden is sincere when he discusses that as well. But I don't think he takes any shit from people especially those with a "D" after their name.

[Hortensis]

50. He doesn't intend to obstruct Biden, though. Manchin is a progressive

Democrat who leans conservative on some issues and liberal on others. Everyone in congress and the WH knows Manchin will be voting with Democrats on some thing and Republicans on others. Making this work is what our people do, including Manchin.

[Efilroft Sul]

13. Biden should publicly ask Jerry Nadler to open a special investigation into corporate inversions.

Nadler, who chairs the House Judiciary Committee, could then ask David Cicilline and Joe Neguse, co-chairs of the Subcommittee on Antitrust, Commercial and Administrative Law, to look specifically at how Mylan and its executives benefitted from moving its "citizenship" offshore after 2015. Manchin's daughter, Heather Bresch, was CEO of Mylan at the time.

Make it plain as day to Manchin that if he wants to fuck with Biden's appointees, then Biden will fuck him right back.

[Big Blue Marble]

16. Do you want to give the Senate back to McConnell? N/T

Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2021, 12:19 PM - Edit history (1)

[Efilroft Sul]

19. Do you want Biden to have his cabinet?

[Big Blue Marble]

33. An attempt to intimate Manchin

will drive him more into the arms of the Republicans. Biden is going to
pragmatically work with Manchin. That is how politics works like or not.

[Efilroft Sul]

52. How can anyone seriously believe the Democrats will be tough on Republicans...

...if we can't get reel in one of our own, who for no damn good reason has a problem with Biden's female and minority nominees while he had no problem with Richard Grenell, Brett Kavanaugh, Bill Barr, et al?

Play hardball with this son of a bitch. Call his bluff about being lured by the Republicans. Start running ads in West Virginia about how he and his daughter play by a different set of rules to enrich themselves while he wants to block $15-per-hour minimum wage for struggling workers and families.

[Big Blue Marble]

54. That is not how it works; no matter how frustrating it is.

How can we be tough on Manchin let alone Republicans. We do not hold that much power.
Trust Biden to weave his way through this situation.

I assure you slamming Manchin is not the answer. He knows his voters better than you do and he feels
no pressure as he has four years until his next re-election anyway. His voters want him to stand up to
Biden and Schumer; they reward him for that.

This "son of bitch" is not being lured by the Republicans. He is who he always was and will be.
And right now he holds the entire Biden agenda in his hands He will do what is best for
him and his constituents no matter how much you rant.

[Efilroft Sul]

55. And I'm saying the Democrats need to take Manchin's power over Biden's agenda out of his hands.

At some point, those who keep kissing Manchin's ass and enable him from preventing this country from going forward are going to run out of Chap-Stick. And when the Chap-Stick runs out, we will still have gotten nowhere because we've entertained his third-rate Mitch McConnell impersonation to the point of inaction. We will have demonstrated weakness in advancing our agenda, and the Republicans will smell blood.

If Manchin threatens to jump ship, he needs to be told he'll be primaried from the right — because he will be — and lose as a Republican in very red West Virginia. His balancing act days will be over. But if Manchin supports Biden, goes large, and shows what Democrats can do for all Americans (and especially West Virginians), his constituents will reward him for that much more than his obstructionist ways.

[George II]

58. Did you see the vote this afternoon on Tom Vilsack's nomination? Anything to say?

[Efilroft Sul]

59. Good. That's what.

Confirmed after 34 days when the average is 23 days, but I'll take it.

[George II]

60. Check who voted for and against him.

[Efilroft Sul]

63. I know Manchin did and Bernie didn't.

Add golf clap here.

[George II]

65. What's a "golf clap"?

[Efilroft Sul]

66. It's the clap the gallery gives to a golfer when he makes par on an easy hole.

[George II]

69. I don't get the correlation, but not important. Just amazed at the "double standard". Whatever.

[Efilroft Sul]

74. And what's this double standard of which you speak?

I want Manchin to confirm nominees who are women of color just like he had no problem confirming white male slime balls like Kavanaugh, Sessions, Grenell, Zinke, et al.

[George II]

78. Well, on the one hand you insist that Manchin vote for all of Biden's nominees (which I want, too)..

....but when another Senator in the Democratic caucus votes against a Biden nominee you dismiss it with, as you put it, a "golf clap".

Of the several nominees who have now had confirmation votes, only one has received a "nay" vote from a Senator from the Democratic caucus. And that doesn't concern you?

[Efilroft Sul]

79. This is about Manchin, not Bernie. I understand Bernie's reasons but disagree with them.

That said, Manchin voting for Vilsack was like him making par on an easy hole because Vilsack's nomination was never in jeopardy.

If there's any double standard in play, it's with Manchin. He had no problem confirming several Trump nominees, knowing very well they were despicable people and were going to do despicable things, but now he has Susan Collins-like "concern" over Tanden and Haaland. Those two Biden nominees are as far away from the awfulness of Grenell et al as heaven is wide. He should know better.

[George II]

80. It's about Senators supporting Biden's nominees. Why all the fretting about Manchin, who.....

....up until now has not voted against a single one of Biden's nominee.

Okay, so now to use your frame of discussion, "this is not about Manchin's confirmation votes of trump nominees".

[Efilroft Sul]

81. Why the fretting? Because Manchin's confirmed far worse than Tanden and Haaland.

He knew the measure of those Trump nominees, that they were self-serving wrecking balls, and he still approved them.

Manchin says he can't support Tanden because she disagreed with politicians on both sides of the aisle, and that she hurt their fee-fees. Come on, man, Tanden's criticisms were nowhere near the level of the bile the previous administration belched on an hourly basis.

And he's hesitant about Haaland. Why? Is AOC right about Manchin, or does he not want to say that the coal industry wants him to not confirm Haaland?

Where did Manchin's concerns about the virtue of Biden's nominees suddenly come from after the last four years?

In short, I think Manchin's full of it.

[bigtree]

28. Manchin isn't up until '24

...so he's going to spend Pres. Biden's entire first term catering to the right wing in his state.

And people wonder why he can't get enough Democratic votes at election time.

[Big Blue Marble]

34. He is not catering to the right wing in his state.

He is catering to the voters in his state. The democrats in WV are not
the democrats you would recognize. They voted for Trump twice in
large numbers.

[bigtree]

35. he's absolutely appeasing the right wing

...opposing these two women nominees from his newly elected Democratic president on what amounts to nothing more than FOX news propaganda.

Most of my relatives are from WVa. and they deserve better than republican-lite at legislating time.

You should recognize that pretending Manchin's defending his seat by taking republican positions on legislation and appointments is going to be a long slog until he's up in '24. An entire term for our president.

[Big Blue Marble]

41. I am not pretending anything.

I am very much in touch with the reality of who Manchin is and will remain for as long as he
is in the Senate. Frankly, knowing how red WV is, I am grateful he has the political skills
to be a Democratic Senator from a overwhelming Trump state.

Right now he is one major reason that Dems control the Senate. The reality is that he is not going
away as a significant impediment for much of the Biden agenda.

[bigtree]

42. so every legislative fight we can expect Manchin to lead with his republican appeasment

...it's no wonder he can't find enough Democrats to vote for him at election time.

[George II]

64. He's not the only non-republican Senator opposing at least one of those women.

[BradAllison]

71. West Virginia doesn't have a pot to piss in

But Neera Tanden is fucking important to them?

[Boydog]

22. I agree. Manchin needs to be made to

Understand that his actions have consequences

[msfiddlestix]

29. I'm fearing that he's getting ready to bail on the party

turning the senate back to maga red. I so hope I'm wrong.

[Boydog]

32. Doesn't seem like a good time to

bail and become a republican. He's not up for reelection until 2024. Looks like he needs to wait at least two more years to see how WV goes in midterm election.

[msfiddlestix]

43. What he's doing now doesn't make sense unless he might be considering before midterms

or maybe he's preparing to for the midterms. I don't know, it's just freaking weird to me.

[Jose Garcia]

56. It would probably be a lot easier for him to be elected as a Republican

Governor Jim Justice switched parties and won by a landslide.

[msfiddlestix]

57. Haven't tracked when his reelection is coming up

But it sure feels like that's where he is ultimately going. Hopefully not sooner than we can actually win the senate by a larger margin.

[radius777]

77. Manchin could never win a GOP primary

which is why he'd never switch.

We should convince Justice (who is very supportive of Biden's economic agenda) to switch back to Dem and primary Manchin.

[budkin]

76. As soon as we no longer need him

We should drop all DNC support for him and let a Republican take his place. He’s held us hostage long enough.