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Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:10 AM

 

"$15/hr will kill small businesses" is this true?

Looking for some discussion on this. I am supportive if $15/hr but I do admit I might not be looking at all the angles. Is there a concern there that small business owners will not be able to compete with larger companies? Will this push out small businesses? I have always been of the mind that if you cannot pay a living wage that your business model is broken.

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Reply "$15/hr will kill small businesses" is this true? (Original post)
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 OP
ProudMNDemocrat Feb 26 #1
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #6
nykym Feb 26 #34
marble falls Feb 26 #2
treestar Feb 26 #3
AllaN01Bear Feb 26 #7
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #16
JT45242 Feb 26 #4
JI7 Feb 26 #5
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #9
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #29
panader0 Feb 26 #8
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #11
panader0 Feb 26 #18
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #22
Turin_C3PO Feb 26 #10
malaise Feb 26 #12
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #17
MineralMan Feb 26 #13
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #21
MineralMan Feb 26 #28
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #69
ProfessorGAC Feb 26 #75
MineralMan Feb 26 #76
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #63
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #67
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #72
RDANGELO Feb 26 #14
Calista241 Feb 26 #15
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #20
AZSkiffyGeek Feb 26 #26
Turin_C3PO Feb 26 #31
Klaralven Feb 26 #35
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #70
Calista241 Feb 26 #32
moondust Feb 26 #73
Calista241 Feb 26 #77
liberal N proud Feb 26 #19
KentuckyWoman Feb 26 #23
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #24
TexasBushwhacker Feb 26 #41
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #62
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #48
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #61
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #65
hunter Feb 26 #25
SoonerPride Feb 26 #27
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #46
SoonerPride Feb 26 #49
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #51
Yeehah Feb 26 #52
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #55
SoonerPride Feb 26 #54
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #56
Wounded Bear Feb 26 #30
inwiththenew Feb 26 #33
Klaralven Feb 26 #38
MichMan Feb 26 #53
Jirel Feb 26 #36
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #45
Johnny2X2X Feb 26 #37
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #44
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #64
stillcool Feb 26 #39
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #43
kcr Feb 26 #74
onecaliberal Feb 26 #40
SlogginThroughIt Feb 26 #42
greenjar_01 Feb 26 #47
MichMan Feb 26 #50
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #66
krispos42 Feb 26 #57
jpljr77 Feb 26 #58
Demsrule86 Feb 26 #68
ecstatic Feb 26 #59
Vinca Feb 26 #60
mackdaddy Feb 26 #71
egduj Feb 26 #78

Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:16 AM

1. Tax breaks for the rich DID NOT raise wages for American workers

Except for a few like Costco, which has put people over profits. Thus, Costco does very well over their corporate counterparts.

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Response to ProudMNDemocrat (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:24 AM

6. Agree!

 

But costco doesn’t fall into small business category. $15/hr would force businesses to pay that rate, but what will the effect to the bottom line be for small businesses?

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:59 AM

34. Costco is now paying

$16.00/hr.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:22 AM

2. No.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:23 AM

3. They say that every time the minimum wage is about to be raised

Every time.

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:24 AM

7. i was going to say, it sounds like a talking point.

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Response to AllaN01Bear (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:32 AM

16. It for sure is a talking point.

 

Is there any merit. The reason I ask is because I heard it on a liberal radio show featuring a panel of black political activists.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:23 AM

4. Statistically not many

The largest percentage of the companies that pay at or near minimum wage fall into the restaurant, hotel, and some retail. Many (if not most) are franchises. So, you get into the argument is a Hardees franchise with 40 employees a small business? A Motel 6 franchise with 30 employees is it a small business? A convenience store franchise with 10 employees? Smaller regional grocery stores that have not been unionized might fall into this category as well. There are also the seasonal type places like pools, amusement parks, etc that typically pay close to minimum wage that fall into this category.

Small businesses that are not in the restaurant sector tend to pay better than minimum wage because they need trained, talented, and experienced individuals. Small tech start ups. Small architectural or engineering companies. Even a small machine shop or auto mechanic shop will pay more than minimum wage.

This may have an impact on local restaurants as some employees would get raises. They would have to raise prices. However, it could also lead to the elimination to tip wait staff. One of the main reasons we tip now is that wait staff are terribly underpaid. If that 15% was part of the menu price rather than an add on to hide labor costs...there could be an impact.

The reality is that if your business model requires underpaying your workers so that they do not make a living wage -- you are adding a lot of turnover costs to your business because most people will try to use it as a stepping stone to a living wage.

This the sky is falling argument is always used but the statistics in the past and current argument. But https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/20/minimum-wage-increases-arent-a-job-killer-small-business-survey.html

said that the majority wouldn't lay people off.

Would some businesses lay people off and expect the remaining workers to pick up the slack ? Of course, that has been the US business model for about 50 years. Do more with less workers, and no matter how much productivity increases do not increase wages below the C-Suite. Woud it be wide spread outside of restaurants, chain stores, and hospitality -- probably not.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:23 AM

5. Not if it's done over time as the current bill would and as as been the case in other states

Each year to raise it a dollar or so until it gets to 15 . This allows businesses to see if they need to adjust things and where to .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:27 AM

9. My fear with that is it will be obsolete.

 

15/hr is already not really a living wage. Over the course of 5-10 years that disparity will grow. Is there a better or supplemental angle that we should be taking such as ceo’s or the top only making x% of the average worker of their company?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:48 AM

29. The current bill isn't going to pass this congress unless done in reconcilation. If we can beat the

odds in 22 and keep the house and add more Senate seats, we could break the filibuster and do it and also other worthy bills...but this is our reality. And it looks like it won't be done in reconciliation. Nancy should have taken it out of Covid as we really must pass that bill and we are running out of time Unemployment ends in March. That should have been the first thing we did. At this point, I believe a $15.00 minimum wage won't be enacted and we need to stop wasting time on it...time we don't have. It is stressing out ordinary Americans who are unemployed that the Covid bill is not done. We will pay a price if we don't get what we can done.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:26 AM

8. No one seems to realize that the minimum wage will be raised slowly to $15.

First $11, the a bit more in a year, until $15 is reached in 2025. Businesses will have time to adjust.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:28 AM

11. I realize it.

 

I just think that by the tome we reach the 15/hr point that we will need to increase it another 5/hr

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:34 AM

18. The minimum wage should be tied to the rate of inflation.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:39 AM

22. Yes I agree with that.

 

I also don’t think that $15/hr covers it.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:28 AM

10. A very small amount that operate

on thin margins may go out of business. But after the increase in money that the workers will make with a higher wage, they will have more spending money and that will help businesses in the long run.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:29 AM

12. If you can't pay a living wage maybe you shouldn't have a business

That is all

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Response to malaise (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:34 AM

17. That has always been my take as well.

 

But what about in underserved areas? The small shop owner that is a local corner store where there isn’t much else? Perhaps there could be assistance packages?

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:29 AM

13. Wages are one of the costs of doing business.

As such, they play into setting prices for your goods and services, just as the wholesale cost of what you sell does. If everyone must pay $15/hr. wages, that will be calculated by all businesses into their pricing structures. So, yes, prices will go up, overall. However, if everyone is earning $15/hr. they will be able to buy more stuff, which balances the whole thing out.

Wealthy people generally spend only a fraction of what they earn. They tend to invest the rest. People on minimum wage generally spend 100% of what they earn. Because of that, increasing the minimum wage will lead to more spending and more profits for businesses.

Opposition to a $15 minimum wage is short-term thinking on the part of business owners. They are looking at their balance sheets and seeing that their profits, if everything else stays the same, will go down. They are not doing the math to see what level of price increase will be needed to maintain their profits, nor are they looking at the potential increase in revenues from people spending more money.

Small businesses, in particular, are often guilty of short-term thinking.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:38 AM

21. But I am not talking about wealthy people.

 

I am talking about small businesses. For example, Businesses in impoverished areas. What is the effect on those businesses going to be.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:45 AM

28. That depends on the business.

If they have to pay higher wages, they will have to increase prices, but everyone else will be in the same boat, so they will remain competitive with other businesses in the market they serve.

When costs change, prices change. If costs change for everyone, everyone's prices change.

If wages go up, those impoverished areas will be less impoverished. Workers in those areas will have more money to spend.

There will be short-term effects and long-term effects.

Short-term - Increasing minimum wages will require adjustments in the prices all businesses that hire minimum wage workers charge for goods and services.

Long-term - Increasing wages will improve the economy, especially in impoverished areas.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #28)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:34 PM

69. I am concerned about purchasing a supply power that large business seem to have an advantage with

 

I have a hard time with that. I don't believe it is an even playing field there and if it creates a void in locally owned small businesses I am worried about that. I think if it came right down to it and we had the ability to just pass $15/hr of course I would say yes go ahead and pass it. that isn't a problem for me. I am just not sure that we are prepared to deal with any potential fallout.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #69)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 04:06 PM

75. Most Big Businesses Are Already Paying More

If MW goes up to $11, then $13, then $15, the bigger companies are going to be $3-5 ahead of the curve.
Just like now.
Will some tiny outfits with razor thin margins fail. Probably.
But, the demand for those goods & services won't evaporate. So, other companies will expand to meet demand. Therefore, the job impact approaches net zero in the short term.
As more people have that usable income, demand rises and even more people are needed to meet demand. Jobs created.
Remember, this argument is the go-to for the same people who assumed us low taxes on the very rich & companies leads inexorably to economic growth.
They were wrong in the 80s, the aughts, and in 2017.
They also told us that prosperity would trickle down all 3 times. They were wrong, wrong & wrong.
Both of these arguments are based on 2 dimensional thinking. X therefore Y. However, in a large economy there are dozens of Xs, leading to multiple Ys. And many of the Xs are interactive with other ones, or more than one.
The economy does NOT work as a X v. Y construct.
Any argument that requires that simple relationship is very likely fatally flawed.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #69)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 04:17 PM

76. It has never been an even playing field for small businesses.

They never have access to high volume purchases of products they sell. Service businesses have it a bit easier. That won't change. Small businesses sell convenience, customer service, and other less tangible things. They are also located where the consumers are.

It has never been easy to succeed as a small business. A higher minimum wage won't affect any of those things, but it will require charging more for goods or services. It's just like the rent going up on your brick and mortar location.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:27 PM

63. Obviously you are against raising the minimum wage...but you are wrong...the extra wages will

allow more consumer spending which will encourage new businesses in all areas. And we won't be paying probably millions/billions to subsidize large and small businesses with social welfare programs. No one can live on minimum wage and most businesses keep folks under 40 hours too...so it has to go up and the chips fall where they may. It won't happen however until we get more Senators and we must hold the house in 22.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #63)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:31 PM

67. Why would you say that?

 

I am for raising it to a living wage which is MORE than $15/hr.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 03:00 PM

72. You counter every argument about why it will cost jobs so you think it will. I believe there

a net gain of jobs and the businesses who can't succeed should be in business anyway.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:31 AM

14. If you want a stable soceity and a moral one, then a strong minimum wage is imperative.

Phasing it in diminishes the affects on small businesses giving time for the economy to adjust. The economy is continuously evolving with jobs going away from some sectors of the economy and popping up in others. It will continue to do that if you raise the minimum wage. A strong minimum wage is important for a strong working class and a stable society.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:32 AM

15. Depends on where you live.

In this cities, a $15 minimum wage is absolutely necessary. However, i'm not blind to the fact that in some rural areas, a quick paced doubling of the minimum wage could have negative impacts.

Perhaps raising the minimum wage should be graduated depending on location.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:35 AM

20. Maybe but that seems to be Manchin's idea.

 

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:45 AM

26. I've wondered about this as well

I spent some time in rural Iowa, and I was looking for work at local newspapers. Full-time reporters were being paid minimum. I was making $15/hour in Phoenix.
At the same time, in Iowa we found a 4-bed 3-bath house close to downtown for 60K, as opposed to our $220K 3bed-2bath house in Phoenix.

My thought is that tying the minimum wage to cost of living would be the best way to move forward.

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Response to AZSkiffyGeek (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:52 AM

31. But even people in areas where cost of living is low

still deserve $15/hr. Even in rural Mississippi, that’s not a lot of money. If anything, the wage in more expensive areas should be much higher, like $20-25/hr.

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:00 AM

35. If Sioux City or Mobile are $15 / hr, New York City and San Francisco should be at least $30 / hr

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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:37 PM

70. That raises another question

 

Should the Fed min wage be a strick number or should it be averaged on the cost of living? I have no idea the issues that would arise with such a program.

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Response to AZSkiffyGeek (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:59 AM

32. I think that sounds like a good idea, but then we'll be fighting over who decides

what the COL is in any given area. Gaming the system will be standard opp procedure for both companies and employees. We'd have employers giving prospective employees preferential treatment compared to others based upon where they live in which counties / cities / states.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 03:48 PM

73. Yes to location specific.

Dependent on local cost of living. The current one-size-fits-all approach may have worked back when the economy was driven much more by small businesses, back before the corporatization of everything got rolling under Reagan in the 80s and before massive inequality, but it's outdated now.

In at least one state (Iowa) the GQP state gov't assholes blocked all past and future local minimum wage and employment benefits laws...

Another possible approach is the Swiss 1:12 Initiative that uses a maximum spread between top pay and bottom pay in a given organization.

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Response to moondust (Reply #73)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 04:27 PM

77. You'd have to play with the term "pay"

because there are executives that get compensated in shares and other benefits that are hard to quantify, but if exercised properly, can make a lot of money. There's a reason Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than his secretary, and it's that he's not compensated in regular salary like everyone else at his company.

Just looking at pay, i mean, there's 500 CEO's on the Fortune 500 that are making these huge multi-million CEO agreements with golden parachute payouts. I can see maybe expanding that to the Fortune 1000 or even the Fortune 2000, but are 2000 people really worth the effort to rewrite the tax code. It will be easy for such a small group of people to game the system and come up with ways to get 'payouts' that are outside the scope of any law we pass.

I mean, we've been talking about executive pay for the entire 40 years of my life that I can remember, and not shit has been done about it. And screwing the lawn service CEO that makes $250k, or the local home remodeling CEO that makes $400k, they are not people I'm worried about. To be fair, they're probably the most screwed class of people tax wise in the system today.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:35 AM

19. They might reap rewards of those higher wages

With new business with the increased income people would have.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:42 AM

23. Labor costs are tax deductions

And if small business owners are competing directly with large corps, they are doing it wrong.

A small business should be finding the gaps and filling them. So while technically, "Play it again Sports" competes with Amazon, Dick's or whatever - being in the resale space is what drives their success.

A fair wage to employees isn't the problem.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:43 AM

24. A small business that doesn't pay their employees a decent wage is sponging off the government...

no different than any of the big businesses that do it...they cost us money and provide very little to our economy. Thus if it is a deal breaker for them. Let them go under and a business that can contribute to this Republic take their place. My sister and daughter work for Mom and Pop type businesses...these people are scum. They kept the Covid money and spent it on themselves. They didn't rehire anyone nor did they give raises or bonuses despite remaining open and having a great year. These are two different companies ...one located on Connecticut and one in Ohio. The one in Connecticut- the owner take expensive vacations and live in a mansion while providing the shittiest health insurance I have ever seen...401 k and no decent benefits. The Ohio one, the owner lives out of states doesn't pay reasonable taxes and also has a crappy benefits program. Neither give back their fair share to this country given they use our roads and bridges...utilities. So if you can't pay $15.00 per hour than find a new line of work because you are a parasite.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:16 AM

41. Yeah, those folks aren't "job creators"

they're "poverty enablers".

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Response to TexasBushwhacker (Reply #41)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:20 PM

62. Exactly right.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:40 PM

48. I have no doubt there are bad small biz owners.

 

And anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.... My concern is how do we keep large business from filling the void. If a greedy small biz owner goes out of business so be it. But by and large I think it is unwise ti characterize small business owners are leaches on our government costing us money.

The point I am making is that this has to be done right. A poor rollout will result in our being trounced at the polls.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:19 PM

61. Who cares...one isn't better than the other.

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Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #61)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:29 PM

65. Small businesses are the same as large businesses?

 

So all businesses are leaches?

And who cares if they go out of business?

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:44 AM

25. Good. Businesses that can't pay a living wage deserve to die.

Small businesses that do pay a comfortable living wage will thrive as wages increase and more people can afford their product.

What our nation most needs is a strong social safety net so that people who lose their jobs or their nonviable businesses don't starve, become homeless, or lose their medical care. You get that by taxing the wealthy -- those people who are receiving ALL the benefits of a well ordered, stable society.

Steeply progressive taxes are a good thing. Those who make minimum wage should pay very little taxes. Those who own multiple expensive homes, travel the world frequently, drive fancy cars, etc., should pay a lot of taxes.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:45 AM

27. It is patently false.

Small business and big business can afford to pay employees more. If they have to slightly adjust pricing to a make it work it won’t drive away customers.

It is a right wing talking point regardless what minimum wage hike is considered.

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Response to SoonerPride (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:36 PM

46. Show me the data.

 

I would like to see where accounting for price between a small business and a large business is an equal playing field. Stating that otherwise is patently false doesn’t get the job done. There needs to be more behind the idea of $15/hr.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:43 PM

49. I don't know why it is incumbent upon me to do your research.

But here ya go

https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/8984-increased-minimum-wage.html

What minimum wage hikes mean for small businesses
It's not uncommon to hear that minimum wage increases have disastrous consequences, particularly for small businesses. However, economic research into the impact of minimum wage hikes on small businesses suggests that not only are increases not harmful, they might even be beneficial.

Research from the Fiscal Policy Institute examined three years of small business activity in states that increased the minimum wage above federal standards as well as states that did not. These were some of the researchers' findings:

From 1998 to 2001, the number of small business establishments grew at a rate of 3.1% in states with higher minimum wages, compared with a rate of 1.6% in states with lower minimum wages.
Employment grew 1.5% more quickly in states with higher minimum wages.
Annual payroll and average payroll per worker increased more quickly in states with higher minimum wages.
Based on this data, the notion that minimum wage hikes kill small businesses and reduce job opportunities appears false. Instead, raising the minimum wage seems to improve entrepreneurs' abilities to start new businesses and hire new workers. Moreover, additional research published in the Journal of Economic Issues found that minimum wage hikes did not correlate with an increase in small business failures. That research even suggested the opposite is true.

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Response to SoonerPride (Reply #49)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:07 PM

51. That data is two decades old.

 

And it is incumbent on you because you made that statement.

One last edit: I am not saying you are wrong. I just find it to be not my impression.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #51)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:19 PM

52. The data seems perfectly relevant to me

What would change in 20 years to make it irrelevant?

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Response to Yeehah (Reply #52)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:24 PM

55. Really what has changed in 20 years?

 

For real?

Only a multitude of laws and policy that favors large businesses. The economy itself has changed quite a bit.

I don’t understand the reluctance to explore what other areas we should bolster in order to get the most out of the investment in workers. The only thing I see people talking about here seems to be “screw em, let em die off”.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #51)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:23 PM

54. You seem to be arguing in bad faith

You ask for data.

It is given.

You then dismiss it as not being current enough to suit your whim.

I am done playing games with you.

Have a nice day.

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Response to SoonerPride (Reply #54)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:27 PM

56. I was never playing games.

 

I was asking for data. A reply was given with data that is over 20 years old. And I am in favor of MORE than 15/hr. That isn’t even a living wage. However if that wage increases and we end up with higher unemployment OR the further takeover of companies with poor ethics and morals then are we winning?

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:50 AM

30. Higher wages attract more and better workers...

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:59 AM

33. The cost of labor is built into the price of every product or service in which you buy

I don't see how raising the cost of the labor is going to drive small business out of business unless it only applies to them. They will just need to raise the price of their goods or services to offset whatever cost increased they incurred.

I guess you could make the argument that large companies are probably better able to control price increases because of economies of scale and better rate from suppliers so that same increase in labor will be less noticeable but that is an issue for small business regardless of a minimum wage increase or not.

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Response to inwiththenew (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:08 AM

38. It would help kill off independent drugstores

But who needs more than CVS, Walgreen's, Rite Aide, Walmart, CostCo, Target, etc. anyway?

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Response to inwiththenew (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:20 PM

53. They can't raise prices easily if their competitors are in China & Mexico

Their customers will take their business to those countries instead.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:06 AM

36. No.

This is literally the argument every time there has been an increase in the minimum wage (33 times!), and it has always been false. We have $15/hr in some cities now, and there is no evidence of putting small businesses out of business. I have a friend who I otherwise love and respect who keeps saying this about his nonprofit. Well, I can tell you that there might be a bit of reshuffling, but worse than that? Not at all. I do get it that the nonprofit is squeezed horribly with COVID - even with some larger donors (ourselves included) stepping up to try to close the funding gap. But, it would NOT go under.

Similarly, I run my own business. It has gotten downright weird since COVID. I didn’t rehire my assistant after the disastrous one quit, but my policy has always been that if I have an assistant, they get paid first, and if there’s no money to pay me that month, then I take a hit. Right now, the weird business is too slow to merit another staff member, but I wouldn’t be hurt by a $15 minimum wage either. The only change for me would be that I couldn’t do a $12/hr probationary period before an automatic $3/hr pay raise.

A lot of us operate on the edge sometimes. But in the end $15/hr would not impact us all that much. We might have to hire a few less part time hours in tight times, or whatever, but the bottom line is that if you’d be put out of business by $15/hr minimum wage, there’s a lot more wrong with your business than having to pay a living wage, and blaming the living wage is an excuse.

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Response to Jirel (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:33 PM

45. Let me be clear.

 

I am not anti-$15/hr. I am very much for it. What I am looking for is are there areas where we are bing shortsighted? As I have mentioned I listened to liberal POC panel the other day and there were several who voiced the concern that this would hit their communities hard because they wouldn’t be able to compete. Such as restaurants against large chains, supply versus big box. My thought was that they are already having a hard time so whats the difference. But then I am not one of those small business owners and don’t feel the same pain. I do feel the overall economic impact of not having a society with enough to live on.

15/hr has to happen yesterday. Will it be enough and are there other circumstances that need to be looked at? How do we preserve businesses i stead of just accepting that some will die off. And if that is inevitable how do we help to ensure that those local small businesses are replaced with local small businesses?

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:07 AM

37. Some small businesses will be hurt

Other small businesses will be helped though. It all depends. But millions of people will earn more money and have better standards of living because of it.

$15 is going to happen one way or another.

I know many small business owners, they will adjust and still turn a profit. I think there will be waivers possible. This is workable. $7.25 is not OK.

Many small business owners think they get to be millionaires for owning a small business. They try to dumb their jobs down so they can pay bare minimum. They aren't as successful as owners that invest in their workers and allow their workers creativity to be a wealth building tool. $15 an hour allows people to live.

We have deified the small business owner, as if their wellbeing outweighs the wellbeing of 50 workers. $15 minimum wage will cause some to go out of business because they aren't very good business owners. It will actually cause others to grow their business though.

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:27 PM

44. I think that is very true also.

 

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Response to Johnny2X2X (Reply #37)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:28 PM

64. No waivers...you either pay or go out of business.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:11 AM

39. Republicans say it every time...

the minimum wage is increased...they get their cost of living increases with no problem, but aren't fond of a living wage for the rest of us. Many things have killed small businesses, but talking points as old as I am is not one of them.

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Response to stillcool (Reply #39)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:25 PM

43. Ok.

 

But when those talking points aren’t coming from republicans? I do think there needs to be more surrounding this to make sure that some areas aren’t overwhelmed with the changes wven when they are phased in.

I get it that some businesses are going to close and there is no avoiding that but what is going to come in their place? If it is walmart or some other mass importer then I think that deserves a closer look. I think people need to make more money but I think that is just one part of the solution.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Reply #43)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 03:57 PM

74. Repub talking points are still Repub talking points

no matter the mouth they're coming out of.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:11 AM

40. Working 2 jobs and 75 hours a week and still live in poverty is unamerican.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #40)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:20 PM

42. I agree.

 

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:39 PM

47. Oooooooooooof

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:49 PM

50. There are a lot of small manufacturing plants that cannot raise prices

They have to compete with plants in Mexico and China for every piece of business they have. Most of these I am familiar with currently pay $12-13 and are located in rural low col areas

If they raise prices, their customers will just go elsewhere.

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Response to MichMan (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:30 PM

66. Fix unfair trade which is killing this country in terms of jobs. The answer is not to create a

wage slaves who can't even put a roof over the head or food on the table.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:30 PM

57. No. Do you want lots of customers with lots of cash to spend...

...or a few customers with cash to spend?

You can't have lots of people with lots of disposable cash AND have low wages. Doesn't work that way.

We can drag ourselves up, or drag ourselves down.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:35 PM

58. It could be a problem for independent restaurants in medium/small towns.

This is for hourly staff (kitchen, bussers, etc.), not servers.

In large metros and in chains, it doesn't matter because either 1) they already pay $15/hr., or 2) they can absorb it or slightly raise prices. But in areas with lower median income, it could be an issue because $10-12/hr. is the wheelhouse for entry-level back-of-the-house positions. They would have to significantly increase prices which may throw them out of alignment with local expectations.

This, of course, is a huge concern as restaurants have been among the hardest-hit businesses in the pandemic.

I support $15/hr. minimum wage, but I also support a phase-in approach to allow for these businesses to catch up.

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Response to jpljr77 (Reply #58)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:32 PM

68. All Americans deserve a living wage and we spend so much money subsidizing these employes...so

no. If you can't afford to pay workers than you can't afford a business.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:07 PM

59. Depends on the industry

For example, Medicaid would need to increase or double their provider reimbursement rates to make up for the change. Concrete example: In one of the home care waiver programs in Georgia, home healthcare providers who administer personal support services are reimbursed at 17.96/ hour. On average, patients receiving care under this waiver receive at least 56 hours per week. If only 1 person is assigned to the case due to a family's preference for only one person entering their home, we're now talking an overtime rate of $22.50/hour which is almost $5.00/hr more than what the provider is being paid. When you add in the other considerations like insurance, workers comp, etc, it becomes an unsustainable situation pretty quickly.

That being said, I assume that Congress and Biden's administration are being proactive in addressing this situation prior to implementing the changes. I hope.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:09 PM

60. I'm not an economist, but I don't see it. More money for people to earn and spend means more money

and increased business. If anything, I think it would help small business.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:44 PM

71. If your business can only survive by keeping your workers in Poverty, maybe it should not.

How does anyone justify that workers who work a full time job do not deserve to have at least a basic reasonable standard of living?

"You have to live in Poverty so that I may Prosper" -- Just NO.

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Response to SlogginThroughIt (Original post)

Fri Feb 26, 2021, 04:32 PM

78. Inevitably so.

But as with any piece of legislation, you need to weigh the positives versus the negatives.

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