Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:10 AM Feb 2021

"$15/hr will kill small businesses" is this true?

Looking for some discussion on this. I am supportive if $15/hr but I do admit I might not be looking at all the angles. Is there a concern there that small business owners will not be able to compete with larger companies? Will this push out small businesses? I have always been of the mind that if you cannot pay a living wage that your business model is broken.

78 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"$15/hr will kill small businesses" is this true? (Original Post) SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 OP
Tax breaks for the rich DID NOT raise wages for American workers ProudMNDemocrat Feb 2021 #1
Agree! SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #6
Costco is now paying nykym Feb 2021 #34
No. marble falls Feb 2021 #2
They say that every time the minimum wage is about to be raised treestar Feb 2021 #3
i was going to say, it sounds like a talking point. AllaN01Bear Feb 2021 #7
It for sure is a talking point. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #16
Statistically not many JT45242 Feb 2021 #4
Not if it's done over time as the current bill would and as as been the case in other states JI7 Feb 2021 #5
My fear with that is it will be obsolete. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #9
The current bill isn't going to pass this congress unless done in reconcilation. If we can beat the Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #29
No one seems to realize that the minimum wage will be raised slowly to $15. panader0 Feb 2021 #8
I realize it. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #11
The minimum wage should be tied to the rate of inflation. panader0 Feb 2021 #18
Yes I agree with that. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #22
A very small amount that operate Turin_C3PO Feb 2021 #10
If you can't pay a living wage maybe you shouldn't have a business malaise Feb 2021 #12
That has always been my take as well. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #17
Wages are one of the costs of doing business. MineralMan Feb 2021 #13
But I am not talking about wealthy people. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #21
That depends on the business. MineralMan Feb 2021 #28
I am concerned about purchasing a supply power that large business seem to have an advantage with SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #69
Most Big Businesses Are Already Paying More ProfessorGAC Feb 2021 #75
It has never been an even playing field for small businesses. MineralMan Feb 2021 #76
Obviously you are against raising the minimum wage...but you are wrong...the extra wages will Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #63
Why would you say that? SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #67
You counter every argument about why it will cost jobs so you think it will. I believe there Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #72
If you want a stable soceity and a moral one, then a strong minimum wage is imperative. RDANGELO Feb 2021 #14
Depends on where you live. Calista241 Feb 2021 #15
Maybe but that seems to be Manchin's idea. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #20
I've wondered about this as well AZSkiffyGeek Feb 2021 #26
But even people in areas where cost of living is low Turin_C3PO Feb 2021 #31
If Sioux City or Mobile are $15 / hr, New York City and San Francisco should be at least $30 / hr Klaralven Feb 2021 #35
That raises another question SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #70
I think that sounds like a good idea, but then we'll be fighting over who decides Calista241 Feb 2021 #32
Yes to location specific. moondust Feb 2021 #73
You'd have to play with the term "pay" Calista241 Feb 2021 #77
They might reap rewards of those higher wages liberal N proud Feb 2021 #19
Labor costs are tax deductions KentuckyWoman Feb 2021 #23
A small business that doesn't pay their employees a decent wage is sponging off the government... Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #24
Yeah, those folks aren't "job creators" TexasBushwhacker Feb 2021 #41
Exactly right. Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #62
I have no doubt there are bad small biz owners. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #48
Who cares...one isn't better than the other. Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #61
Small businesses are the same as large businesses? SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #65
Good. Businesses that can't pay a living wage deserve to die. hunter Feb 2021 #25
It is patently false. SoonerPride Feb 2021 #27
Show me the data. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #46
I don't know why it is incumbent upon me to do your research. SoonerPride Feb 2021 #49
That data is two decades old. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #51
The data seems perfectly relevant to me Yeehah Feb 2021 #52
Really what has changed in 20 years? SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #55
You seem to be arguing in bad faith SoonerPride Feb 2021 #54
I was never playing games. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #56
Higher wages attract more and better workers... Wounded Bear Feb 2021 #30
The cost of labor is built into the price of every product or service in which you buy inwiththenew Feb 2021 #33
It would help kill off independent drugstores Klaralven Feb 2021 #38
They can't raise prices easily if their competitors are in China & Mexico MichMan Feb 2021 #53
No. Jirel Feb 2021 #36
Let me be clear. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #45
Some small businesses will be hurt Johnny2X2X Feb 2021 #37
I think that is very true also. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #44
No waivers...you either pay or go out of business. Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #64
Republicans say it every time... stillcool Feb 2021 #39
Ok. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #43
Repub talking points are still Repub talking points kcr Feb 2021 #74
Working 2 jobs and 75 hours a week and still live in poverty is unamerican. onecaliberal Feb 2021 #40
I agree. SlogginThroughIt Feb 2021 #42
Oooooooooooof greenjar_01 Feb 2021 #47
There are a lot of small manufacturing plants that cannot raise prices MichMan Feb 2021 #50
Fix unfair trade which is killing this country in terms of jobs. The answer is not to create a Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #66
No. Do you want lots of customers with lots of cash to spend... krispos42 Feb 2021 #57
It could be a problem for independent restaurants in medium/small towns. jpljr77 Feb 2021 #58
All Americans deserve a living wage and we spend so much money subsidizing these employes...so Demsrule86 Feb 2021 #68
Depends on the industry ecstatic Feb 2021 #59
I'm not an economist, but I don't see it. More money for people to earn and spend means more money Vinca Feb 2021 #60
If your business can only survive by keeping your workers in Poverty, maybe it should not. mackdaddy Feb 2021 #71
Inevitably so. egduj Feb 2021 #78

ProudMNDemocrat

(16,485 posts)
1. Tax breaks for the rich DID NOT raise wages for American workers
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:16 AM
Feb 2021

Except for a few like Costco, which has put people over profits. Thus, Costco does very well over their corporate counterparts.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
6. Agree!
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:24 AM
Feb 2021

But costco doesn’t fall into small business category. $15/hr would force businesses to pay that rate, but what will the effect to the bottom line be for small businesses?

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
16. It for sure is a talking point.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:32 AM
Feb 2021

Is there any merit. The reason I ask is because I heard it on a liberal radio show featuring a panel of black political activists.

JT45242

(2,173 posts)
4. Statistically not many
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:23 AM
Feb 2021

The largest percentage of the companies that pay at or near minimum wage fall into the restaurant, hotel, and some retail. Many (if not most) are franchises. So, you get into the argument is a Hardees franchise with 40 employees a small business? A Motel 6 franchise with 30 employees is it a small business? A convenience store franchise with 10 employees? Smaller regional grocery stores that have not been unionized might fall into this category as well. There are also the seasonal type places like pools, amusement parks, etc that typically pay close to minimum wage that fall into this category.

Small businesses that are not in the restaurant sector tend to pay better than minimum wage because they need trained, talented, and experienced individuals. Small tech start ups. Small architectural or engineering companies. Even a small machine shop or auto mechanic shop will pay more than minimum wage.

This may have an impact on local restaurants as some employees would get raises. They would have to raise prices. However, it could also lead to the elimination to tip wait staff. One of the main reasons we tip now is that wait staff are terribly underpaid. If that 15% was part of the menu price rather than an add on to hide labor costs...there could be an impact.

The reality is that if your business model requires underpaying your workers so that they do not make a living wage -- you are adding a lot of turnover costs to your business because most people will try to use it as a stepping stone to a living wage.

This the sky is falling argument is always used but the statistics in the past and current argument. But https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/20/minimum-wage-increases-arent-a-job-killer-small-business-survey.html

said that the majority wouldn't lay people off.

Would some businesses lay people off and expect the remaining workers to pick up the slack ? Of course, that has been the US business model for about 50 years. Do more with less workers, and no matter how much productivity increases do not increase wages below the C-Suite. Woud it be wide spread outside of restaurants, chain stores, and hospitality -- probably not.

JI7

(89,182 posts)
5. Not if it's done over time as the current bill would and as as been the case in other states
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:23 AM
Feb 2021

Each year to raise it a dollar or so until it gets to 15 . This allows businesses to see if they need to adjust things and where to .

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
9. My fear with that is it will be obsolete.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:27 AM
Feb 2021

15/hr is already not really a living wage. Over the course of 5-10 years that disparity will grow. Is there a better or supplemental angle that we should be taking such as ceo’s or the top only making x% of the average worker of their company?

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
29. The current bill isn't going to pass this congress unless done in reconcilation. If we can beat the
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:48 AM
Feb 2021

odds in 22 and keep the house and add more Senate seats, we could break the filibuster and do it and also other worthy bills...but this is our reality. And it looks like it won't be done in reconciliation. Nancy should have taken it out of Covid as we really must pass that bill and we are running out of time Unemployment ends in March. That should have been the first thing we did. At this point, I believe a $15.00 minimum wage won't be enacted and we need to stop wasting time on it...time we don't have. It is stressing out ordinary Americans who are unemployed that the Covid bill is not done. We will pay a price if we don't get what we can done.

panader0

(25,816 posts)
8. No one seems to realize that the minimum wage will be raised slowly to $15.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:26 AM
Feb 2021

First $11, the a bit more in a year, until $15 is reached in 2025. Businesses will have time to adjust.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
11. I realize it.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:28 AM
Feb 2021

I just think that by the tome we reach the 15/hr point that we will need to increase it another 5/hr

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
10. A very small amount that operate
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:28 AM
Feb 2021

on thin margins may go out of business. But after the increase in money that the workers will make with a higher wage, they will have more spending money and that will help businesses in the long run.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
17. That has always been my take as well.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:34 AM
Feb 2021

But what about in underserved areas? The small shop owner that is a local corner store where there isn’t much else? Perhaps there could be assistance packages?

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
13. Wages are one of the costs of doing business.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:29 AM
Feb 2021

As such, they play into setting prices for your goods and services, just as the wholesale cost of what you sell does. If everyone must pay $15/hr. wages, that will be calculated by all businesses into their pricing structures. So, yes, prices will go up, overall. However, if everyone is earning $15/hr. they will be able to buy more stuff, which balances the whole thing out.

Wealthy people generally spend only a fraction of what they earn. They tend to invest the rest. People on minimum wage generally spend 100% of what they earn. Because of that, increasing the minimum wage will lead to more spending and more profits for businesses.

Opposition to a $15 minimum wage is short-term thinking on the part of business owners. They are looking at their balance sheets and seeing that their profits, if everything else stays the same, will go down. They are not doing the math to see what level of price increase will be needed to maintain their profits, nor are they looking at the potential increase in revenues from people spending more money.

Small businesses, in particular, are often guilty of short-term thinking.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
21. But I am not talking about wealthy people.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:38 AM
Feb 2021

I am talking about small businesses. For example, Businesses in impoverished areas. What is the effect on those businesses going to be.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
28. That depends on the business.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:45 AM
Feb 2021

If they have to pay higher wages, they will have to increase prices, but everyone else will be in the same boat, so they will remain competitive with other businesses in the market they serve.

When costs change, prices change. If costs change for everyone, everyone's prices change.

If wages go up, those impoverished areas will be less impoverished. Workers in those areas will have more money to spend.

There will be short-term effects and long-term effects.

Short-term - Increasing minimum wages will require adjustments in the prices all businesses that hire minimum wage workers charge for goods and services.

Long-term - Increasing wages will improve the economy, especially in impoverished areas.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
69. I am concerned about purchasing a supply power that large business seem to have an advantage with
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:34 PM
Feb 2021

I have a hard time with that. I don't believe it is an even playing field there and if it creates a void in locally owned small businesses I am worried about that. I think if it came right down to it and we had the ability to just pass $15/hr of course I would say yes go ahead and pass it. that isn't a problem for me. I am just not sure that we are prepared to deal with any potential fallout.

ProfessorGAC

(64,425 posts)
75. Most Big Businesses Are Already Paying More
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 04:06 PM
Feb 2021

If MW goes up to $11, then $13, then $15, the bigger companies are going to be $3-5 ahead of the curve.
Just like now.
Will some tiny outfits with razor thin margins fail. Probably.
But, the demand for those goods & services won't evaporate. So, other companies will expand to meet demand. Therefore, the job impact approaches net zero in the short term.
As more people have that usable income, demand rises and even more people are needed to meet demand. Jobs created.
Remember, this argument is the go-to for the same people who assumed us low taxes on the very rich & companies leads inexorably to economic growth.
They were wrong in the 80s, the aughts, and in 2017.
They also told us that prosperity would trickle down all 3 times. They were wrong, wrong & wrong.
Both of these arguments are based on 2 dimensional thinking. X therefore Y. However, in a large economy there are dozens of Xs, leading to multiple Ys. And many of the Xs are interactive with other ones, or more than one.
The economy does NOT work as a X v. Y construct.
Any argument that requires that simple relationship is very likely fatally flawed.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
76. It has never been an even playing field for small businesses.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 04:17 PM
Feb 2021

They never have access to high volume purchases of products they sell. Service businesses have it a bit easier. That won't change. Small businesses sell convenience, customer service, and other less tangible things. They are also located where the consumers are.

It has never been easy to succeed as a small business. A higher minimum wage won't affect any of those things, but it will require charging more for goods or services. It's just like the rent going up on your brick and mortar location.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
63. Obviously you are against raising the minimum wage...but you are wrong...the extra wages will
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:27 PM
Feb 2021

allow more consumer spending which will encourage new businesses in all areas. And we won't be paying probably millions/billions to subsidize large and small businesses with social welfare programs. No one can live on minimum wage and most businesses keep folks under 40 hours too...so it has to go up and the chips fall where they may. It won't happen however until we get more Senators and we must hold the house in 22.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
72. You counter every argument about why it will cost jobs so you think it will. I believe there
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 03:00 PM
Feb 2021

a net gain of jobs and the businesses who can't succeed should be in business anyway.

RDANGELO

(3,430 posts)
14. If you want a stable soceity and a moral one, then a strong minimum wage is imperative.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:31 AM
Feb 2021

Phasing it in diminishes the affects on small businesses giving time for the economy to adjust. The economy is continuously evolving with jobs going away from some sectors of the economy and popping up in others. It will continue to do that if you raise the minimum wage. A strong minimum wage is important for a strong working class and a stable society.

Calista241

(5,584 posts)
15. Depends on where you live.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:32 AM
Feb 2021

In this cities, a $15 minimum wage is absolutely necessary. However, i'm not blind to the fact that in some rural areas, a quick paced doubling of the minimum wage could have negative impacts.

Perhaps raising the minimum wage should be graduated depending on location.

AZSkiffyGeek

(10,814 posts)
26. I've wondered about this as well
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:45 AM
Feb 2021

I spent some time in rural Iowa, and I was looking for work at local newspapers. Full-time reporters were being paid minimum. I was making $15/hour in Phoenix.
At the same time, in Iowa we found a 4-bed 3-bath house close to downtown for 60K, as opposed to our $220K 3bed-2bath house in Phoenix.

My thought is that tying the minimum wage to cost of living would be the best way to move forward.

Turin_C3PO

(13,650 posts)
31. But even people in areas where cost of living is low
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:52 AM
Feb 2021

still deserve $15/hr. Even in rural Mississippi, that’s not a lot of money. If anything, the wage in more expensive areas should be much higher, like $20-25/hr.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
70. That raises another question
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:37 PM
Feb 2021

Should the Fed min wage be a strick number or should it be averaged on the cost of living? I have no idea the issues that would arise with such a program.

Calista241

(5,584 posts)
32. I think that sounds like a good idea, but then we'll be fighting over who decides
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:59 AM
Feb 2021

what the COL is in any given area. Gaming the system will be standard opp procedure for both companies and employees. We'd have employers giving prospective employees preferential treatment compared to others based upon where they live in which counties / cities / states.

moondust

(19,917 posts)
73. Yes to location specific.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 03:48 PM
Feb 2021

Dependent on local cost of living. The current one-size-fits-all approach may have worked back when the economy was driven much more by small businesses, back before the corporatization of everything got rolling under Reagan in the 80s and before massive inequality, but it's outdated now.

In at least one state (Iowa) the GQP state gov't assholes blocked all past and future local minimum wage and employment benefits laws...

Another possible approach is the Swiss 1:12 Initiative that uses a maximum spread between top pay and bottom pay in a given organization.

Calista241

(5,584 posts)
77. You'd have to play with the term "pay"
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 04:27 PM
Feb 2021

because there are executives that get compensated in shares and other benefits that are hard to quantify, but if exercised properly, can make a lot of money. There's a reason Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than his secretary, and it's that he's not compensated in regular salary like everyone else at his company.

Just looking at pay, i mean, there's 500 CEO's on the Fortune 500 that are making these huge multi-million CEO agreements with golden parachute payouts. I can see maybe expanding that to the Fortune 1000 or even the Fortune 2000, but are 2000 people really worth the effort to rewrite the tax code. It will be easy for such a small group of people to game the system and come up with ways to get 'payouts' that are outside the scope of any law we pass.

I mean, we've been talking about executive pay for the entire 40 years of my life that I can remember, and not shit has been done about it. And screwing the lawn service CEO that makes $250k, or the local home remodeling CEO that makes $400k, they are not people I'm worried about. To be fair, they're probably the most screwed class of people tax wise in the system today.

KentuckyWoman

(6,666 posts)
23. Labor costs are tax deductions
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:42 AM
Feb 2021

And if small business owners are competing directly with large corps, they are doing it wrong.

A small business should be finding the gaps and filling them. So while technically, "Play it again Sports" competes with Amazon, Dick's or whatever - being in the resale space is what drives their success.

A fair wage to employees isn't the problem.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
24. A small business that doesn't pay their employees a decent wage is sponging off the government...
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:43 AM
Feb 2021

no different than any of the big businesses that do it...they cost us money and provide very little to our economy. Thus if it is a deal breaker for them. Let them go under and a business that can contribute to this Republic take their place. My sister and daughter work for Mom and Pop type businesses...these people are scum. They kept the Covid money and spent it on themselves. They didn't rehire anyone nor did they give raises or bonuses despite remaining open and having a great year. These are two different companies ...one located on Connecticut and one in Ohio. The one in Connecticut- the owner take expensive vacations and live in a mansion while providing the shittiest health insurance I have ever seen...401 k and no decent benefits. The Ohio one, the owner lives out of states doesn't pay reasonable taxes and also has a crappy benefits program. Neither give back their fair share to this country given they use our roads and bridges...utilities. So if you can't pay $15.00 per hour than find a new line of work because you are a parasite.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
48. I have no doubt there are bad small biz owners.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:40 PM
Feb 2021

And anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.... My concern is how do we keep large business from filling the void. If a greedy small biz owner goes out of business so be it. But by and large I think it is unwise ti characterize small business owners are leaches on our government costing us money.

The point I am making is that this has to be done right. A poor rollout will result in our being trounced at the polls.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
65. Small businesses are the same as large businesses?
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:29 PM
Feb 2021

So all businesses are leaches?

And who cares if they go out of business?

hunter

(38,264 posts)
25. Good. Businesses that can't pay a living wage deserve to die.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:44 AM
Feb 2021

Small businesses that do pay a comfortable living wage will thrive as wages increase and more people can afford their product.

What our nation most needs is a strong social safety net so that people who lose their jobs or their nonviable businesses don't starve, become homeless, or lose their medical care. You get that by taxing the wealthy -- those people who are receiving ALL the benefits of a well ordered, stable society.

Steeply progressive taxes are a good thing. Those who make minimum wage should pay very little taxes. Those who own multiple expensive homes, travel the world frequently, drive fancy cars, etc., should pay a lot of taxes.

SoonerPride

(12,286 posts)
27. It is patently false.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:45 AM
Feb 2021

Small business and big business can afford to pay employees more. If they have to slightly adjust pricing to a make it work it won’t drive away customers.

It is a right wing talking point regardless what minimum wage hike is considered.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
46. Show me the data.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:36 PM
Feb 2021

I would like to see where accounting for price between a small business and a large business is an equal playing field. Stating that otherwise is patently false doesn’t get the job done. There needs to be more behind the idea of $15/hr.

SoonerPride

(12,286 posts)
49. I don't know why it is incumbent upon me to do your research.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:43 PM
Feb 2021

But here ya go

https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/8984-increased-minimum-wage.html

What minimum wage hikes mean for small businesses
It's not uncommon to hear that minimum wage increases have disastrous consequences, particularly for small businesses. However, economic research into the impact of minimum wage hikes on small businesses suggests that not only are increases not harmful, they might even be beneficial.

Research from the Fiscal Policy Institute examined three years of small business activity in states that increased the minimum wage above federal standards as well as states that did not. These were some of the researchers' findings:

From 1998 to 2001, the number of small business establishments grew at a rate of 3.1% in states with higher minimum wages, compared with a rate of 1.6% in states with lower minimum wages.
Employment grew 1.5% more quickly in states with higher minimum wages.
Annual payroll and average payroll per worker increased more quickly in states with higher minimum wages.
Based on this data, the notion that minimum wage hikes kill small businesses and reduce job opportunities appears false. Instead, raising the minimum wage seems to improve entrepreneurs' abilities to start new businesses and hire new workers. Moreover, additional research published in the Journal of Economic Issues found that minimum wage hikes did not correlate with an increase in small business failures. That research even suggested the opposite is true.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
51. That data is two decades old.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:07 PM
Feb 2021

And it is incumbent on you because you made that statement.

One last edit: I am not saying you are wrong. I just find it to be not my impression.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
55. Really what has changed in 20 years?
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:24 PM
Feb 2021

For real?

Only a multitude of laws and policy that favors large businesses. The economy itself has changed quite a bit.

I don’t understand the reluctance to explore what other areas we should bolster in order to get the most out of the investment in workers. The only thing I see people talking about here seems to be “screw em, let em die off”.

SoonerPride

(12,286 posts)
54. You seem to be arguing in bad faith
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:23 PM
Feb 2021

You ask for data.

It is given.

You then dismiss it as not being current enough to suit your whim.

I am done playing games with you.

Have a nice day.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
56. I was never playing games.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:27 PM
Feb 2021

I was asking for data. A reply was given with data that is over 20 years old. And I am in favor of MORE than 15/hr. That isn’t even a living wage. However if that wage increases and we end up with higher unemployment OR the further takeover of companies with poor ethics and morals then are we winning?

inwiththenew

(972 posts)
33. The cost of labor is built into the price of every product or service in which you buy
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 10:59 AM
Feb 2021

I don't see how raising the cost of the labor is going to drive small business out of business unless it only applies to them. They will just need to raise the price of their goods or services to offset whatever cost increased they incurred.

I guess you could make the argument that large companies are probably better able to control price increases because of economies of scale and better rate from suppliers so that same increase in labor will be less noticeable but that is an issue for small business regardless of a minimum wage increase or not.

 

Klaralven

(7,510 posts)
38. It would help kill off independent drugstores
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:08 AM
Feb 2021

But who needs more than CVS, Walgreen's, Rite Aide, Walmart, CostCo, Target, etc. anyway?

MichMan

(11,790 posts)
53. They can't raise prices easily if their competitors are in China & Mexico
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:20 PM
Feb 2021

Their customers will take their business to those countries instead.

Jirel

(1,993 posts)
36. No.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:06 AM
Feb 2021

This is literally the argument every time there has been an increase in the minimum wage (33 times!), and it has always been false. We have $15/hr in some cities now, and there is no evidence of putting small businesses out of business. I have a friend who I otherwise love and respect who keeps saying this about his nonprofit. Well, I can tell you that there might be a bit of reshuffling, but worse than that? Not at all. I do get it that the nonprofit is squeezed horribly with COVID - even with some larger donors (ourselves included) stepping up to try to close the funding gap. But, it would NOT go under.

Similarly, I run my own business. It has gotten downright weird since COVID. I didn’t rehire my assistant after the disastrous one quit, but my policy has always been that if I have an assistant, they get paid first, and if there’s no money to pay me that month, then I take a hit. Right now, the weird business is too slow to merit another staff member, but I wouldn’t be hurt by a $15 minimum wage either. The only change for me would be that I couldn’t do a $12/hr probationary period before an automatic $3/hr pay raise.

A lot of us operate on the edge sometimes. But in the end $15/hr would not impact us all that much. We might have to hire a few less part time hours in tight times, or whatever, but the bottom line is that if you’d be put out of business by $15/hr minimum wage, there’s a lot more wrong with your business than having to pay a living wage, and blaming the living wage is an excuse.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
45. Let me be clear.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:33 PM
Feb 2021

I am not anti-$15/hr. I am very much for it. What I am looking for is are there areas where we are bing shortsighted? As I have mentioned I listened to liberal POC panel the other day and there were several who voiced the concern that this would hit their communities hard because they wouldn’t be able to compete. Such as restaurants against large chains, supply versus big box. My thought was that they are already having a hard time so whats the difference. But then I am not one of those small business owners and don’t feel the same pain. I do feel the overall economic impact of not having a society with enough to live on.

15/hr has to happen yesterday. Will it be enough and are there other circumstances that need to be looked at? How do we preserve businesses i stead of just accepting that some will die off. And if that is inevitable how do we help to ensure that those local small businesses are replaced with local small businesses?

Johnny2X2X

(18,745 posts)
37. Some small businesses will be hurt
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:07 AM
Feb 2021

Other small businesses will be helped though. It all depends. But millions of people will earn more money and have better standards of living because of it.

$15 is going to happen one way or another.

I know many small business owners, they will adjust and still turn a profit. I think there will be waivers possible. This is workable. $7.25 is not OK.

Many small business owners think they get to be millionaires for owning a small business. They try to dumb their jobs down so they can pay bare minimum. They aren't as successful as owners that invest in their workers and allow their workers creativity to be a wealth building tool. $15 an hour allows people to live.

We have deified the small business owner, as if their wellbeing outweighs the wellbeing of 50 workers. $15 minimum wage will cause some to go out of business because they aren't very good business owners. It will actually cause others to grow their business though.

stillcool

(32,626 posts)
39. Republicans say it every time...
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 11:11 AM
Feb 2021

the minimum wage is increased...they get their cost of living increases with no problem, but aren't fond of a living wage for the rest of us. Many things have killed small businesses, but talking points as old as I am is not one of them.

 

SlogginThroughIt

(1,977 posts)
43. Ok.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:25 PM
Feb 2021

But when those talking points aren’t coming from republicans? I do think there needs to be more surrounding this to make sure that some areas aren’t overwhelmed with the changes wven when they are phased in.

I get it that some businesses are going to close and there is no avoiding that but what is going to come in their place? If it is walmart or some other mass importer then I think that deserves a closer look. I think people need to make more money but I think that is just one part of the solution.

MichMan

(11,790 posts)
50. There are a lot of small manufacturing plants that cannot raise prices
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 12:49 PM
Feb 2021

They have to compete with plants in Mexico and China for every piece of business they have. Most of these I am familiar with currently pay $12-13 and are located in rural low col areas

If they raise prices, their customers will just go elsewhere.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
66. Fix unfair trade which is killing this country in terms of jobs. The answer is not to create a
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:30 PM
Feb 2021

wage slaves who can't even put a roof over the head or food on the table.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
57. No. Do you want lots of customers with lots of cash to spend...
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:30 PM
Feb 2021

...or a few customers with cash to spend?

You can't have lots of people with lots of disposable cash AND have low wages. Doesn't work that way.

We can drag ourselves up, or drag ourselves down.

jpljr77

(1,004 posts)
58. It could be a problem for independent restaurants in medium/small towns.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 01:35 PM
Feb 2021

This is for hourly staff (kitchen, bussers, etc.), not servers.

In large metros and in chains, it doesn't matter because either 1) they already pay $15/hr., or 2) they can absorb it or slightly raise prices. But in areas with lower median income, it could be an issue because $10-12/hr. is the wheelhouse for entry-level back-of-the-house positions. They would have to significantly increase prices which may throw them out of alignment with local expectations.

This, of course, is a huge concern as restaurants have been among the hardest-hit businesses in the pandemic.

I support $15/hr. minimum wage, but I also support a phase-in approach to allow for these businesses to catch up.

Demsrule86

(68,352 posts)
68. All Americans deserve a living wage and we spend so much money subsidizing these employes...so
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:32 PM
Feb 2021

no. If you can't afford to pay workers than you can't afford a business.

ecstatic

(32,567 posts)
59. Depends on the industry
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:07 PM
Feb 2021

For example, Medicaid would need to increase or double their provider reimbursement rates to make up for the change. Concrete example: In one of the home care waiver programs in Georgia, home healthcare providers who administer personal support services are reimbursed at 17.96/ hour. On average, patients receiving care under this waiver receive at least 56 hours per week. If only 1 person is assigned to the case due to a family's preference for only one person entering their home, we're now talking an overtime rate of $22.50/hour which is almost $5.00/hr more than what the provider is being paid. When you add in the other considerations like insurance, workers comp, etc, it becomes an unsustainable situation pretty quickly.

That being said, I assume that Congress and Biden's administration are being proactive in addressing this situation prior to implementing the changes. I hope.

Vinca

(50,170 posts)
60. I'm not an economist, but I don't see it. More money for people to earn and spend means more money
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:09 PM
Feb 2021

and increased business. If anything, I think it would help small business.

mackdaddy

(1,520 posts)
71. If your business can only survive by keeping your workers in Poverty, maybe it should not.
Fri Feb 26, 2021, 02:44 PM
Feb 2021

How does anyone justify that workers who work a full time job do not deserve to have at least a basic reasonable standard of living?

"You have to live in Poverty so that I may Prosper" -- Just NO.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»"$15/hr will kill small b...