Questions about the "sovereign citizen" movement and "American state national" vs citizen.

[niyad]

A woman whom I have known for years, who seems to believe in some unusual things (the NESERA nonsense comes to mind) believes that she can opt out of citizenship, declare herself a state national, and not be subject to US law, even though living here. She got a ticket for expired plates the other day, and signed with "all rights reserved without prejudice" saying that will protect her. The courts are not legal, common law, constitution, etc. All this predates the qanon, but. .

Does anybody have any idea what all this is even about? I worry for her, and how much trouble .i think she is setting herself up for. Do I have cause to be worried?

[jpak]

1. A few nights in jail or big fines will fix that - maybe

These people are stupid.

Yup

[Aristus]

2. It's just empty-headed libertarianism taken to its empty-headed

extreme.

“Your laws don’t apply to me because I say so.”

One has to be pretty stupid to believe that shit, but no one thinks these people are intellectual giants...

[blm]

28. ✔️

[Javaman]

3. In a nutshell

SC’s are batshit crazy

They fuck up on the basics in life and want to blame someone else for their self induced problems

[niyad]

6. I don't know about the rest of them, but this woman has worked hard all her life, has worked

tirelessly for peace and justice, for affordable housing and many other issues. She is a caring, compassionate person. I want to know what kind of problems she is setting herself up for.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. The Sovereign Citizen movement is often seen as more dangerous as even neo-Nazi movements

in the U.S., although of course many people are just on the fringe of it and use it to try to get out of taxes and traffic tickets. She's obviously feeling powerless in some way and will face continued hardship in the form of increased fines and so on.

[niyad]

7. That first line is really disturbing. Looks like I have cause to worry.

[mwmisses4289]

5. How sad...

So this seems to be where some of the qnonsense comes from. Sad that so many believe it.

[ADK]

8. The SLPC has good information on the Sovereign Citizens Movement

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement

[niyad]

13. Thank you. That was the kind of information ?I was hoping to find.

[Baitball Blogger]

9. Saw it in the nineties. Some are serious about it. Others support it because they

think they can circumvent the laws.

[niyad]

14. She is not a scammer. She seriously believes the bs.

[Baitball Blogger]

18. This is what serious sovereigntist did in the nineties:

They used their law degrees to try to undermine the laws through the courts. Even judges were a part of this. They focused on what was important to them: Land development laws. And they were successful.

We are all feeling the damage of what they were able to undermine on the local stage. This is partly why Florida is so fractured. And now, they're going after the federal laws.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. It's teh basis for various scams, some against the government, some against the gullible

One way sovereigns try to make the imaginary money real is by abusing legitimate I.R.S. forms. Law-abiding taxpayers use Form 1099-OID, for example, to report “original issue discount” income. But some sovereigns write in fake OID income, and fake withholding, in order to claim illegitimate refunds. If you file such a return, you risk at the very least a large fine. Yet from 2012 to 2014, according to the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration, the I.R.S. received close to 7,000 sham OID filings.

Chronically underfunded and understaffed, I.R.S. investigators refer only about two dozen sovereign-scam cases, on average, for prosecution each year. The agency sometimes misses returns that should raise suspicion. For example, in 2016, the I.R.S. discovered a sizable redemption scheme — but only after processing 207 bogus returns and disbursing more than $43 million. That’s another reason these strange theories persist, and have begun to leach out of the sovereign network and into the general population: Sometimes, improbably, they work.
...
It was around this time that the Mortons turned to hawking the debt-erasing sovereign scheme known as the “bond process.” Over two years, they helped people around the country send nearly two dozen fake bonds to the I.R.S., Quicken Loans, PennyMac, Bank of America, Chase Bank and the treasurer’s office in Contra Costa County, California. Early in 2015, Barbara Lavender, the woman whose husband met Mr. Morton at a U.F.O. conference, gave him a call.
...
To wipe out her $70,000 balance, he suggested Ms. Lavender should send him $2,500, or less than 4 percent of what she owed. She and her husband believed Mr. Morton had discovered the sort of workaround rich people find. “You know,” she testified later. “You hear it all the time: ‘wealthy with tax loopholes,’ and that kind of thing.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/business/sovereign-citizens-financial-crime.html

It also has link to the "Posse Commitatus" movement, and include some seriously violent individuals, who have gone as far as killing police officers. Yes, worry about anyone falling for it. They're in danger of getting scammed, of being persuaded to try and defraud the government or others, or of getting mixed up in far right violence. If she actually believes this stuff, she'd no longer capable of looking after her own money without breaking the law. Maybe a relative could get someone appointed to run her affairs?

[niyad]

17. I know that she would never scam anyone, and she is a committed peace activist. But she

Believes the entire system is corrupt, and wants to live apart from the corruption. How she became attracted to this nonsense is something I am trying to understand.

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. It sounds like she's willing to break the law for trivial gain, though,

if she "believes that she can opt out of citizenship, declare herself a state national, and not be subject to US law, even though living here. She got a ticket for expired plates the other day, and signed with "all rights reserved without prejudice" saying that will protect her. The courts are not legal, common law, constitution, etc."

So she didn't keep her plates up to date, and rather than paying a fine, she's trying to ignore a simple law that keeps the country going (and vehicles safe). I don't think you can say "she would never scam anyone"; perhaps "she would never scam any person". She is trying to scam your government.

[niyad]

21. Thank you for the clarity of that last sentence.

[niyad]

20. She does have family, who might step,in if it gets worse. All she has is social security, no other

real assets.

[tulipsandroses]

11. This anti democracy movement has swept in all kinds of conspiracy nuts

This is the danger of social media- people spread all kinds of nonsense. If you are not completely grounded, its a lot easier to get swept up in all the nonsense thrown at you on social media. I see that with some people I know. One is completely down the rabbit hole with a mish mosh of sovereign citizen nonsense, pizza gate, chem trails and other BS. I'm surprised he hasn't latched on to the Qanon garbage.

He's always been mistrustful of govt. However, I've seen some other once "stable" people fall prey to some of the lies, conspiracies spread online. I was quite shocked recently to hear someone I've always held in high regard make anti semitic comments.

Never heard that from them before. But in an age where people just sit and digest video after video, meme after meme, post after post about these things, I think the masses are being brain washed.

[RKP5637]

12. Yes, "the masses are being brain washed." And many are incredibly gullible and ignorant. n/t

[taxi]

27. Having known many wannabes, I agree

Family, former friends, coworkers, members of various leagues, and others I've met pretty much fall into the mistrust of government category. It seems their idea of what the government is becomes variable, but the government is an umbrella that covers all the bases. Whether their discontent starts with not paying a parking ticket or extends to a dislike of federal regulations on an industry they work in, they lock back in time. Never ahead.

Edit:
The second link describes the fallacies on a single page instead of a slideshow format.
I like this site that describes different logical fallacies:
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause
https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/academic_writing/logic_in_argumentative_writing/fallacies.html

[niyad]

32. That site froze my computer twice.

[taxi]

33. Thank you. I edited above.

The second link doesn't use slides.

[niyad]

37. Thank you.

[walkingman]

15. I have known someone like this for a few years in the past. IMO, she is more than likely

being influenced by someone that is pushing that agenda. Most of the leaders of these movements are capitalizing on far our ideas that do not affect them directly but the followers CAN get into some negative consequences by following these folks. I personally have never understood their philosophy. The man I know actually and truly believes for example that he can get a auto loan and doesn't have to pay any of the payments??? That of course will first of all lead to credit and financial issues but more than that it is a path that sometimes doesn't end with one incident.

Hopefully she will recognize that "government" is not evil. Our systems are usually designed to help people but often are exploited for personal gain - that was usually not the intent. The exception in my mind is TAXES. Taxes are usually used to push an agenda. Some good and some not so good.

Good luck to your friend - I hope she does not get too far down the rabbit hole.

Peace

[niyad]

22. I am afraid that she is fairly far down it, and falling rapidly.

[SCantiGOP]

16. There's a tax attorney in S.C.

Who just got early release from his 20 year tax fraud sentence (he served almost 11 years).
He advised clients that they were required to file tax forms, but that all they had to do was write “Refuse to provide data to protect my 5th Amendment Rights” and they wouldn’t have to pay. Dozens of people, to their regret, followed his advice.

In the traffic case described in the OP, the judge will tell her that he must find her guilty, but she can certainly appeal her case up to the Supreme Court if she thinks she’s right. That means: pay up or stay in jail.

[Politicub]

23. YouTube is filled with videos about sovereign citizens trying to talk

themselves out of getting a ticket or court sentence. A good search term to use is “sovereign citizen fail.”

Some are hilarious. Others are pathetic. But what they all have in common is that the arguments that they use have never worked.

That does not mean they cause damage: They bring frivolous lawsuits against public-sector employees, and it takes time and resources to go through the process for dismissal of the cases.

[niyad]

25. Should I wait to view those videos until it is late enough to drink? It was bad enough just reading

the SPLC report on them.

[treestar]

35. Yes. those can be quite entertaining

They repeat the same things, showing they got it from somewhere as the talking point.

[struggle4progress]

24. You can always ask her informative questions:

"Can somebody declare herself not subject to US law and then shoplift without penalty? Can somebody declare himself not subject to US law and then steal your car without penalty? Can you declare yourself not subject to US law and then rob banks without penalty?"

Don't argue. Just ask. You can vary the questions. The answers may tell you whether to worry.

[niyad]

26. Those are most informative. My first response is that she would answer "of course not". But I have n

never asked her exactly how far that unfettered personal freedom extends.

[struggle4progress]

36. You could focus on automobile issues:

Driving without a valid driver's license? Driving an uninspected vehicle? Driving without insurance? Driving without headlights after dark? Running stop signs and redlights? Speeding? Driving while intoxicated? Driving the wrong way on the highway? Hit and run?

[TroubleMan]

29. Here's a good break down on it, with history and references:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen

It's all BS, but people will believe anything these days.

[niyad]

34. Thank you. That was most informative.

[MineralMan]

30. Many have tried that. None have succeeded.

Some are in prison.

[UpInArms]

31. The Sovereign Citizen movement is filled with dangerous people

They hate the US government, and they're multiplying: the terrifying rise of 'sovereign citizens'

On 20 May 2010, a police officer pulled over a white Ohio minivan on Interstate 40, near West Memphis, Arkansas. Unbeknown to officer Bill Evans, the occupants of the car, Jerry Kane Jr, and his teenage son, Joseph Kane, were self-described “sovereign citizens”: members of a growing domestic extremist movement whose adherents reject the authority of federal, state and local law.

Kane, who traveled the country giving instructional seminars on debt evasion, had been posing as a pastor. Religious literature was laid out conspicuously for anyone who might peer into the van, and, when Evans ran the van’s plates, they came back registered to the House of God’s Prayer, an Ohio church. Also in the van, though Evans did not know it, were weapons Kane had bought at a Nevada gun show days earlier.

Kane had been in a series of run-ins with law enforcement. After the most recent incident, a month earlier, he had decided that the next time a law enforcement officer bothered him would be the last.

Another officer patrolling nearby, Sgt Brandon Paudert, began to wonder why Evans was taking so long on a routine traffic stop. When he pulled up at the scene, he saw Evans and Kane speaking on the side of the highway. Evans handed him some puzzling paperwork that Kane had provided when asked for identification – vaguely official-looking documents filled with cryptic language. He examined the papers while Evans prepared to frisk Kane.

Suddenly, Jerry Kane turned and tackled Evans, knocking him down into a ditch. The younger Kane vaulted from the passenger side of the minivan and opened fire with an AK-47. Evans, an experienced officer who also served on the Swat team, was fatally wounded before he even drew his weapon. Paudert was struck down moments later while returning fire.

Lots more at link ... Terry Nichols, partner to Tim McVeigh, was a ‘Sovereign Citizen.”