I have spent over three decades in courtrooms ...

[NanceGreggs]

... and what I could tell you about he said/she said testimony would shake your faith in humankind.

I have heard women accuse men of sexual assault, even rape, only to recant when their stories fell apart on the witness stand. I have heard both men and women accuse each other of sexually assaulting their own children in an attempt to win custody in divorce proceedings. I have watched children being coached to testify against their own mother/father – confused and bewildered by the roles they are expected to play before a judge or jury.

The concept of ‘always believe the woman’ when she claims a sexual assault is just as abhorrent as ‘always believe the man’. No one should be believed until all of the facts are thoroughly investigated, and proven beyond any reasonable doubt.

Men lie – and so do women. One’s gender should never be proffered as proof of anything, nor should one’s accusations be weighed as being more credible because of one’s gender.

Whatever anyone has accused Andrew Cuomo of is just that – accusations. Nothing more, nothing less. And accusations alone do not constitute guilt or innocence.

It is decidedly an unpopular position to say let the facts play out, when so many people have already made up their minds as to who is actually guilty based on female-v-male stereotypes – which are, quite frankly, no less abhorrent than white-v-black stereotypes. To say 'believe the woman no matter what' is no different than saying 'believe the white person no matter what'.

In the end, Cuomo’s conduct will be investigated – and rushing to judgment about whether he is guilty of the accusations made against him are true or not will be revealed.

In the meantime, one has to wonder about accusations made years after they allegedly occurred as a matter of actual fact, or a matter of advancing a political agenda, given that these accusations have conveniently surfaced just in time to besmirch the reputation of the governor of the state that is actively pursuing the crimes of one Donald J. Trump.

Trash me if you’ve a mind to – I am all out of fucks to give. But I do have a serious problem with men OR women who suddenly remember things that supposedly happened years ago, and whose memories just kicked-in when politically convenient.

We've been here before. We lost one of our most admired Democratic heroes, Al Franken, to lies and innuendo - and I for one will not stand by in silence and watch that happen again.

[NoMoreRepugs]

1. K&R. Totally agree, we have been here before.

[Hortensis]

65. :) The attempt to smear Biden as a sexual predator comes to mind.

Not just of women, but children. Given zero evidence to support that, and his half century of kindness and decency, and crowds of angry friends, the fallback attack was the attempt to rebrand him as "Creepy Uncle Joe."

That failed completely, of course. But Nance's memories of people under oath illustrate how some people behave any time they want to.

As said, we've been here before. Many times.

[True Blue American]

119. And as women we know

They can be devious. Facts matter and saying years after you were afraid you would lose your job because someone said something to you.

We also know there are aggressive, then vindictive women.

[Hortensis]

122. All true of both sexes. Both sexes also can commit to their lies

for their own reasons every bit as much as other people can who determine to believe them for their own reasons.

[Cracklin Charlie]

2. I agree.

I’ve seen plenty of women lie, about things large and small. Men, too. Investigate the allegations.

I am a woman.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Thank you, Nance. Very well said. You are so eloquent, and wise. We need your voice...

Now, more than ever.

[Mme. Defarge]

4. Merci!

I could not agree more.

[dutch777]

5. Right on! Take it to a neutral third party and let the chips fall where they may.

[Snackshack]

6. 100% right!

Thank you!

[Hoyt]

7. Basically agree. However, I think a lot of women don't come forward

at the time because of publicity and fear of harsh investigations. It’s a tough situation, women have suffered and some men have been crucified by false charges.

Believe harassment is a very serious issue.

[True Dough]

28. Hoyt! Dude!

Stop making me agree with you! Twice in one night. Enough!

[Hoyt]

91. You were just wrong all those other times :)

[True Dough]

101. Well,

I appreciate you setting me straight!

[stopdiggin]

53. yep. If I can mash up both your post AND and the OP

that's pretty much got it centered, as far as I'm concerned.

[PoliticAverse]

8. The Governor of New York has nothing to do with actively pursuing the crimes of one Donald J. Trump

That is a matter of the Attorney General of New York (Letitia James) who is neither appointed nor controlled by the governor but rather is elected separately.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letitia_James

[Lefta Dissenter]

12. However,

A Republican governor might pardon trump for state crimes he’s committed.

[PoliticAverse]

15. If such a governor wanted to commit political suicide. n/t

[Lefta Dissenter]

17. He might think

He might think it would make him a hero. Just look at all of those jackasses at CPAC. I would think any one of them would give a million bucks to be able to “rescue” trump.

[notinkansas]

23. 45 has tried everything else.

It would not be beneath him to attempt to politically eliminate Cuomo looking for a repub governor pardon. Wonder if Giuliani is involved in stirring things up.

Or maybe none of the above and the allegations are real.

We'll see.

[PoliticAverse]

64. If Cuomo was removed he would be replaced by the Lieutenant Governor, a Democrat also...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_Governor_of_New_York
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathy_Hochul

[Lefta Dissenter]

72. Yes

However they could think they could get a Republican elected to replace a “sleazy” governor when his term is up. They will play on this regardless of the veracity of the claims against Cuomo.

And I’m not saying I don’t believe the women making the claims. I’m just saying I think there could be strong motivation to take Cuomo down in the interest of protecting the Orange Idol

[Grins]

133. That was true the last time this happened...

...and it was a pure disaster! So bad the R’s took the executive mansion after the next election.

[PoliticAverse]

157. When Spitzer resigned he was replaced by Lt. Governor Patterson (Democrat).

Patterson was followed up by the current Governor Andrew Cuomo (Democrat).

[jaxexpat]

100. There exists in this country a court of public opinion which decides all federal elections.

Those elections are ALWAYS in campaign mode.

In that court, from the POV of "conservatives", New York, Gov. Cuomo, "east coast liberals" and Democratic elitists are synonyms. A point against the governor is, in that court, a point against current and future progressive ambitions. Just as an accusation against Trump is, in that court, justification for elevating outrage over any progressive actor/action.

[Dorian Gray]

125. Yep

And she's excellent. Whether Cuomo is the Governor or not.

[rpannier]

9. I agree with you partly

But, let's be honest here
75% of the people who agree with your position would reflexively believe the accuser if Cuomo were a Republican
I'm willing to let it play out and see what happens (and how it is investigated).
For the record, I am in the, "He likely did what he's accused of."
But, I am staying away from 99% of these threads because I do not know.
I will be curious the next time an accusation is thrown against a Republican how many of the 'let it play out' crowd will immediately say he should resign, or of course he's guilty

[Duppers]

10. Indeed! 👍

[Bev54]

11. I do not think it is the position to automatically believe women

It is to hear them and treat them with respect and investigate. Do not dismiss them nor automatically believe. There are those who lie for all sorts of reasons, including political or monetary, but there are just as many that finally feel safe enough to tell their story. I make no judgements either way on these recent accusations, other than to say they should be investigated.

[ancianita]

13. Thank you. And glad you're the expert right now.

[NanceGreggs]

16. Not an expert by any means ...

... but being a court reporter for 35 years, you see and hear a lot.

[ancianita]

21. Credible expert witness enough, and we are the clearer for that. Thank you for your post.

[NanceGreggs]

27. And thank you ...

... for your kindness.

[calimary]

154. Yep, you sure do!

Sheesh, all those years as a court reporter - I bet you have stories...

[moondust]

14. "Lag time" for Franken: 14 years.

USO tour picture in 2003.
Other "incidents" in 2006 and 2010.
Accusations surfaced in late 2017.
Roger Stone pushed allegations in RW media.
Al resigned in early 2018.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Franken#Sexual_misconduct_allegations

What took the accusers so long?

[ancianita]

32. My theory is Republicans try to clear the decks to run for target seats. Franken's was saved.

In Cuomo's case, if he resigns and Hochul takes over, she will be run hard against by Republicans, as Cuomo was at least twice.

I hope she wins in 2022. We had better make sure she does.
But if she doesn't -- Republicans have run that state before with billions behind them -- whoever is in office will give Trump a state level pardon.

If that is the result of all our past ethical purity fuss, then we righteously have helped their deck clearing and have righteously refused to learn our lessons.

We told ourselves that we don't want to be that minority party that's content to lose while priding itself on its ethics and morals, and here we are again, helping the wholly owned subsidiary set us up again.

[moondust]

40. Biden got 60.9% of New York.

Granted, Dump had a long history in NY that many rightly found repulsive. Still, I don't know if chances are very good in NY for any lying GQPer in the forseeable future.

[ancianita]

42. Yep, different kind of election. Not a state election. I'm not claiming to know, either, because

New Yorkers are smart. Still, there's a huge red population.

Of 19 million, only 4 to 5 million have voted in past gubernatorial elections, so I wouldn't discount a lot of corporate money and hype getting poured into a Republican opponent to get out the vote, even if it's just for party revival reasons.

We didn't foresee 2010 or 2018, and so fought like hell in 2020. The way I see it, we have to see every election as 2020 even after Trump is dead.

[Jetheels]

104. Nail on head: state level pardon.

[srobertss]

150. Wow...

I had not considered this possibility. The timing is interesting. Hopefully an investigation will uncover such machinations.

I got in the middle of a “she said, he said” situation involving a rape allegation at my job. They never brought the law into it, just the Affirmative Action Office. Nothing was ever resolved. I’m female and ended up on the side of the male. It was like floating down a river and having to decide which side of a boulder to paddle around. Split second decision that somehow there’s no going back from. I have felt torn by the situation for many years, but still have to trust my first judgement.

[Meowmee]

156. I think this is what this is about really

R gov pardons dump for NY state crimes if convicted.

[ailsagirl]

18. "accusations...conveniently surfaced" is so right

It’s yet another diversion, methinks. Not that there might not be a grain of truth to the story (to be honest I haven’t been closely following it) but it has that deja vu feel to it.

Excellent points you bring up, as always!!

👍👏🏽😎

[PatrickforB]

19. I'm not going to trash you at all. I'm going to agree.

Due process is the cornerstone of our justice system. If we cast it out, we cease to be under the rule of law.

Let the investigation be conducted, and let the facts come out. Then we can make a decision.

Right now, they are allegations.

[chowder66]

20. I had a friend whose wife tried to insinuate that something lurid went on between him and his kids.

She is a lawyer. He's not.
In the end she admitted she said things in anger and that they weren't true but that wasn't until after the case was settled.
Luckily for him, in both instances (she tried to use against him) his mother was there when each "situation" occurred. There was nothing inappropriate at all.
But she still fought like hell... and the worst part of it all was that she was divorcing him over her affair with another man. He was devastated by that then devastated again by her brutally hurtful accusations. He was the primary caregiver while she got her degree and studied for the bar.

It really opened my eyes to how much a woman's word is valued over a man's when it comes to children.

I've also known women saying they were pregnant to keep their boyfriends from leaving them or buying flowers for themselves to make their SO's jealous.

I do think these women deserve to be heard and an investigation should be done but Cuomo also deserves to have his voice heard in his defense.
That is fair.

[mountain grammy]

22. K&R

[SheltieLover]

24. K&R!

Well said!

[CanonRay]

25. Bravo!

[Rhiannon12866]

26. The timing is also extremely suspicious

He's emerged as a national leader in speaking about the coronavirus, thereby earning the wrath of Trump.

[Jose Garcia]

76. So you believe that these three Democratic women are trying to help Trump

AFTER he lost the election? Suspicious timing indeed.

[Rhiannon12866]

77. We were told early on that one of Trump's signature behaviors was enacting revenge

And he has plenty of time on his hands now and even more resentments.

[Jose Garcia]

81. Why would these woman, all of whom have worked as Democratic staffers, want to help Trump?

[intheflow]

90. Indeed. The timing might be because as Democrats they didn't want to say anything

during the election cycle to give more fodder for Trump to whip up his delusional followers.

[Dream Girl]

111. I believe they were recruited and paid off. Young women with big debts. Must be very tempting

I doubt they’re trying to “help Trump” ...they probably don’t even know where this leads.

[Demsrule86]

137. That is a good point...check their bank accounts...

[Demsrule86]

134. They just are the pile on crew...could be for any reason...they don't like him, they want a woman

Governor...anything really. But yeah I think the GOP started it with the nursing homes and when that didn't work moved to this BS...the same happened with Biden...both Flores ( she was probably from the left) and Tara Reid(may have been a righty or just PO'd about losing her job...or wanted her 15 minutes ... had pile on crews...women who came forward with BS stories.

[LittleGirl]

29. I'm with you Nance

as a victim of assault and rape, I don't believe every accusation either. I want to hear the proof.

[NanceGreggs]

31. I am sorry for your travails.

But I applaud your courage in saying what you did.

[LittleGirl]

35. It was decades ago

when I was younger and less fat. The meatheads out there think they can say or do whatever they want to pretty young girls and it is a society problem.
Men need to be taught that they need to keep their opinions, mouths and hands away from women unless they are invited.
I'm still hurting by Al Franken's loss to the Senate.

[Demsrule86]

135. I am a victim also...and I want proof too...this sort of thing is bad for women who are truly

assaulted or harassed...because they are later used to discredit all women.

[Texasgal]

30. Except for the fact

that women are often not believed in these types of situations as history has shown.

This OP is victim shaming and I am shocked and quite frankly depressed to see it here on DU.

[NanceGreggs]

34. And except for the fact ...

... that men are often not believed, as history has also shown.

I am not 'victim shaming' - I am 'liar shaming'.

[Texasgal]

37. Yup.

Women are consistently questioned and called liars in situations like these.

I am not going to argue or get into a big debate over this, because this doesn't shock me anymore.

It's clear what you think.

[NanceGreggs]

39. I hope what I think IS clear.

No one should be believed/disbelieved based solely on their gender.

[kcr]

67. Assuming that these women are liars IS victim shaming

Your OP is disappointing.

[TwilightZone]

92. That assertion isn't present in the OP.

You seem to have come to a conclusion not supported by the evidence.

[kcr]

93. Even Cuomo isn't saying they're lying

So why is lying even mentioned? My conclusion is sound.

[Dorian Gray]

128. Extremely

[treestar]

144. Who assumes they are liars?

They could be, and that should be looked into. Innocent until proven guilty. It is disappointing to see this assumption of guilt of any man accused.

[hay rick]

41. The fact that women are often not believed does not mean they should always be believed.

Accusers and the accused deserve a full hearing and judgments of credibility should be reserved until that time.

[uponit7771]

56. No, #MeToo doesn't mean accusation is conviction or anything close. It means we need

... to believe people enough to investigate thoroughly which was NOT happening in the past.

Investigate is the keyword and fire-able and jail-able offenses

#MeToo shouldn't be #IWasJustUncomfortable

[intheflow]

87. Agreed.

Victim shaming has no place at all on DU. Especially victim blaming Democratic women.

[Dorian Gray]

127. Sadly, I'm not

It's how the world rolls.

I'm sad about that but not surprised.

[Demsrule86]

138. Just because a claim has been made doesn't mean she is a victim...I have to say these are bullshit

claims IMHO. I have experienced the real thing.

[nolabear]

33. There are so many opinions and they substitute for facts.

I don’t know what he did. I know that discomfort. Most of us do. I know women have put up with uncomfortable flirtations and unwarranted come-ons forever and sometimes the intent is egregious and sometimes not. I don’t know what should happen to those who make women uncomfortable with what they think is acceptable. It’s a massive legal/emotional/societal tangle and every one of those things has to be disentangled.

I agree there has to be an investigation and then people will decide how to use the accusations, decisions and future actions for all kinds of reasons of their own, both honest and nefarious. These seldom end well no matter what is determined.

I guess I’ll just stand back and watch. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.

[stopdiggin]

60. by far the most nuanced (and at the same time, solid)

treatment so far. (thank you!)

It sounds like some of Cuomo's behavior was fairly crude (and distasteful) -- but I also remember vividly when Joe Biden was being accused of being 'too handsy' -- and thus guilty of making individuals 'uncomfortable.' There's such a broad range of behavior being drug into this ....

[Blue Dawn]

36. Completely agree with you, NanceGreggs.

[niyad]

38. Thank you, Nance.

[Gore1FL]

43. I think the idea is to take the accusations seriously, not to take them as factual. nt

[uponit7771]

57. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾

[betsuni]

44. Thank you!

[Mr.Bill]

45. This may be the most profound thing

I've ever read on the internet.

And I've been around, trust me.

[scarletwoman]

46. Thank you, I totally agree with, and appreciate your post.

[Hekate]

47. Spot on, Nance. Spot on. nt

[LetMyPeopleVote]

48. I totally agree

There needs to be an investigation. I remember the bogus allegations of Tara Reide. That story feel apart after even a causal investigation.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

49. Contempt prior to investigation is one of our biggest evils.....

It's corrosive to our society and is now amplified 1000X on social media. It eats away at unity. Previously known in small communities as gossip.

We have no right to appoint ourselves detective, police officer, prosecutor, judge, jury or executioner.

Democrats should strive to not participate...... ........

[quakerboy]

50. a quick question

the implication you seem to be making is that this has something to do with the investigation of trump.

What does the governor (in his official position) have to do with that investigation?

If somehow Cuomo came out tomorrow and admitted to everything hes accused of, and more, and resigned.. would that have any actual effect on the investigation?

Or would the investigation continue unchanged while NY readily plucks one of its many capable democrats off the bench and keep on keeping on?

My phrasing my reveal my assumptions, but I dont know the answer, it is a real question, if i am incorrect, Id like to be better informed.

[Bettie]

84. The governor can pardon him

for state crimes, thus stopping any and all investigations.

If they can get a friendly governor installed, they get what they want.

[quakerboy]

143. Interesting

Hadnt thought of that.

How likely is that? Biden won the state by over 20 points. Before that Cuomo won by a nearly identical margin. as did Clinton. Gillibrand won by over 30 points. If I were a trump ally.. pretty sure its not a tactical option i would consider financially viable.

[dalton99a]

51. No Democrat should resign their position unless convicted of a felony.

[Demsrule86]

139. Yup, that would put an end to the rat fucking going on.

I would bet money...they have something on the Lt. Governor just as they did on Fairfax in Virginia which turned out to be nonsense.

[Kablooie]

52. I wouldn't be surprised if there was GLOP money going to these women.

Paying for sex accusations is probably the quickest, surest and cheapest way to bring down a Democrat. That should be investigated before condemning a politician.

[stopdiggin]

55. "always believe" is a fools game

and should never have been allowed to have any currency. Just flat out fallacy. And one where even the most cursory of examination ....

With that -- I find myself in agreement with about 98% of the opinion post. Think we also have to be careful in casting suspicion on motive .... ALSO without knowing the full set of facts.

[IcyPeas]

58. He sounds guilty of boorish behavior...

What is the difference between boorish behavior and sexual harassment?

This needs to be investigated.

[tulipsandroses]

63. By his own policy. It is harassment

When it comes to Ms. Bennett. He has not denied her claims.

A “model policy” provided by Cuomo’s office to employers described harassment as including “any unwanted verbal or physical advances, sexually explicit derogatory statements or sexually discriminatory remarks made by someone which are offensive or objectionable to the recipient, which cause the recipient discomfort or humiliation, which interfere with the recipient’s job performance.”
[link:https://www.thecity.nyc/2021/2/28/22306426/cuomo-sexual-harassment-claims-follow-warning-signs|

[lamp_shade]

59. My Mother has told of accounts similar to yours. She was a court stenographer in the

70's and 80's... mostly at Family Court proceedings. She told of the hateful things couples said about each other, many of which were outright lies and uncovered as such when the alleged victim realized (and had not anticipated) they'd have to tell their story under oath.

[DFW]

61. I couldn't agree more

Accused does not mean guilty, denial does not mean innocent, but assumptions to fit a convenient narrative are always suspect.

I have always preferred the Anglican code (innocent until proven guilty) to the Napoleonic code (guilty until proven innocent), but that's just me. I don't know Andrew Cuomo, have never met the guy, have no idea what he's like. I do know Al Franken, and do know what he's like, and none of the accusations leveled against him ever rang true with me. All the made-up reasons about why he resigned, or why he offered an initially weak response to the accusations against him are nothing more than that--made up by people who have never talked to him about it. He resigned only after the Democratic governor of Minnesota designated his successor before he even had a hearing. He initially offered a weak defense because, knowing the allegations against him were BS, he figured his Democratic colleagues in the Senate knew him well enough to also recognize them as BS. He was totally blindsided when they either took them seriously, or (worse) acted as if they did for political advantage. A few have since apologized to Al in private. Only Jon Tester of Montana has done so publicly. THAT was the one thing he didn't see coming. Franni is even more unforgiving about that than Al himself. Don't even get her started on the subject unless you have some time and are ready for an earful.

Accusers "coming forward" at times curiously convenient to a political opposition always should raise at least an eyebrow. We don't need to be guillotining our own without solid proof that it is justified. Republicans will ALWAYS think it's justified that we do that. Republicans are not my standard for passing judgment, needless to say.

[tulipsandroses]

62. It should be noted that Ms.Bennett, 2nd accuser did not wait years to speak about what happened

She says she spoke up one week after it happened and was transferred. She did not suddenly remember what happened to her.


Though Bennett was clear that no physical contact occurred, she later texted a friend that the conversation “was like the most explicit it could be,” in a text message reviewed by the Times.

After bringing the incident to Cuomo’s staff, Bennett was transferred out of her position working on the governor’s Covid-19 team into a new job as a health policy aide in an office on the opposite side of the state capitol.


[link:https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2021/2/28/22305760/andrew-cuomo-aide-sexual-harassment-allegations|

[kcr]

68. Frankly, I don't think the OP cares

These are women and they are liars because that's what their courtroom experience has taught them. The bias is obvious.

[Hortensis]

71. THAT's what you took from this? Bias against women?

I took it to illustrate her experience that it's common for some people to lie like rugs and smear like butter knives.

Therefore,

"No one should be believed until all of the facts are thoroughly investigated, and proven beyond any reasonable doubt."

[kcr]

73. In the context of the Cuomo discussion? You bet I did.

Just because Franken got railroaded doesn't mean every other accusation is the same. Same thing with whatever personal experience the OP may have had. Bias is bias. The women accusing Cuomo are highly credible and there is evidence.

[Hortensis]

78. All men and women are credible until shown not to be.

Sometimes evidence proving or disproving a claim is immediately available. Most times it requires at least some degree of investigation. The OP calls for investigation.

[kcr]

79. I don't need to re-read the OP

Three members of his own staff. Pictures. Text messages. He ADMITS it, even if he's trying to downplay it. These women aren't lying. Even Cuomo himself isn't saying so. The OP is disgusting. I vigorously defended Al Franken here on DU at the time, and I still believe he's innocent. But, if I knew that his defense would cause such regressive attacks on victims in general? I would have rethought my public stance. It's appalling.

[Hortensis]

80. You think the OP is disgusting. Noted. The end.

[raccoon]

66. Excellent post! I totally agree. Especially this:

In the meantime, one has to wonder about accusations made years after they allegedly occurred as a matter of actual fact, or a matter of advancing a political agenda, given that these accusations have conveniently surfaced just in time to besmirch the reputation of the governor of the state that is actively pursuing the crimes of one Donald J. Trump.

[Alliepoo]

69. I'm with you 100%,

Nance.

[The Magistrate]

74. Hear Hear, Ma'am

I will have some attention to pay to these tales when Trump is in the dock for multiple rapes, of which he has been quite credibly accused, over the years. Until then, I really do not care.

We on the left simply have to stop letting the enemy use our better natures against us.

[boston bean]

75. Except women are consistently disbelieved.

It has been happening for centuries.

[Dem4Life1102]

82. Except the person investigating Trump

is the same person investigating Cuomo, New York’s democratic AG. Seems if there were a political motive to stop the Trump investigation, they would go after the AG and not the Governor. In fact because she is also investigating Cuomo, a fellow Democrat, gives the Trump investigation more credibility because the AG can’t be accused of acting out of purely partisan motives.

[msfiddlestix]

83. This post is absolutely spot on. I have been of this mind in this case from the start.

From the first time I heard reports on the media. It felt and smelled like it was a politically driven agenda.. but of course not certain because all the facts were not laid out.

Furthermore, in my 70 years of living (not in court rooms, but just in the world) I have witnessed over my lifetime countless times when I witnessed Women lying about conduct from men in their lives, whether professionally or intimately.

I never subscribe to the "believe her" notion, just because of gender. How could I when I know that Women are just as capable as lying about abuse as Men are. Married to a man who was violently abusive, after calling the police for this, He ran out to the police and accused me of violent abuse against him.

I actually had a Woman co-worker accuse me of sexual harassment after I had refused her advances at work in the Women's restroom! She was angry and vindictive. Fabricating a scenario that never happened, and reversed what actually did happen. Unknowingly to me, she had done this to another Woman at work and attempted to make the same charges. She was fired rightfully so.

I hate that this "me too" movement taking on this veneer of 100% credibility. It cannot be we "believe her" just because a claim of abuse is generated by a Woman. Seriously wrong headed. Imo.

[twodogsbarking]

85. Well stated by someone with experience.

Time will tell.

[intheflow]

86. Are you saying "All accusations matter?"

Because that's what this sounds like to me. "Not ALL women" is like saying "Not ALL white people." Yes, every case is individual, and also overwhelmingly women are gaslighted, shamed, and dismissed as frivolous or as working to make a powerful man look bad when they report harassment.

[bucolic_frolic]

88. That's one for the ages

That is balance on a subject that is definitely not. Some people have very clear memories. Others do not have much memory, or have memories that become distorted. Ever recall a photograph you saw when young, or remember an item you stored away for several decades? You love it, you remember it. Go compare your memory to that actual item. The results might surprise.

[spanone]

89. K&R

[JohnnyRingo]

94. K&R

As usual, your carefully chosen words delivered with wisdom and Grace.

I'm still going to call waitresses "honey". There's a certain age a man reaches that any reasonable person can tell he's harmless. If I ever get to see a waitress again.

[Hotler]

95. +1 nt

[Major Nikon]

96. Reasonable doubt is the legal standard for criminal cases

Nobody is saying Cuomo should be put behind bars, even if the claims have merit.

Tort, administrative, and political actions all have different standards of guilt than criminal cases. Nobody who has been sexually harassed in the workplace should have to meet the standard of beyond reasonable doubt before actions are taken. This type of misinformation is actually harmful to those who have experienced such things.

Anyone who has actual experience in these types of matters should know this.

[Hermit-The-Prog]

97. It may be shocking to some, but there are people who will lie for political reasons.

[judesedit]

98. Well said

[theneworiginal]

99. The boys at Duke would agree. They were massacred on DU.

And when it was discovered that the "victim" made the whole thing up, it didn't undo the damage that had been done. And interestingly, very few accusers on DU offered a mea culpa.

[FrankTC]

102. Totally Agree

I've spent quite a few years in courtrooms also -- child custody cases -- and it soon became clear that you cannot blindly believe allegations of sexual misconduct. You have to investigate and weigh the evidence. When the stakes are high, some people lie. So it was all the more disappointing to me when Senator Debbie Stabenow joined the shunning of Al Franken without a careful examination of the evidence. She has an MSW from Michigan State, and as a professionally trained social worker, she should have known better. Still pisses me off.

[librechik]

103. Totally agree, Nance. EQUAL justice under the law

is not well supported by that phrase, "I believe the women." just as you say, before any evidence is presented. I don't like being slyly treated as a child with this declaration. But if I present my evidence and the judge then believes me, I am most grateful. Because, and you know this too, I'm sure, men DON'T believe women in general about anything.

"Oh let her have her say" is revolting. And that phrase is the same as "I believe the women" It's facile and disingenuous.

But it's better than being called an outright liar.

[Rabrrrrrr]

105. I'm with you. Mob justice is never justice. Accusations are not proof.

We liberals/progressives have to start letting these things be decided properly and live by the values that we say we espouse: which very much includes facts, trial by jury, and innocent until proven guilty. We have to stop rushing to condemnation as soon as any woman accuses any man of sexual assault.

[Jetheels]

106. Thank you NanceGreggs, well written.

I see a lot of people on here are quick to not only convict but also punish.
Without taking anytime to research stories on their own.
Without a need for an investigation.
They just go by a couple headlines. Trial by tv.
And their personal feelings rather than facts.
Diminishes the overall intelligence of DU.
The longer these stories stay in the news the less nuanced they become as well, and one has to dig further to find truths.

[Pacifist Patriot]

107. I'm not sure why "wait for the facts to come in" is a controversial position.

That's my default setting whenever shit like this hits the news. I don't care who is involved.

As a victim of both assault and harassment, I completely understand why women don't come forward for years or decades. So I don't weight the timing of the revelation much one way or the other. The only thing I do know is that I wasn't there, I don't know either party, and I'm not privy to the investigation. I also have no personal incentive to know the facts immediately with any certainty. I'm perfectly fine with letting it play out and hoping any investigation is conducted fairly and thoroughly for all parties involved.

[BobTheSubgenius]

108. A very serious allegation of abuse was levelled against my friend Wes by a vindictive ex.

Actually, the divorce had not yet cleared the courts, but it hardly matters.

After more than a year, he finally had his day in court, at the conclusion of which, the judge said to her "I'd jail you, if I could."

Wes died from a heart attack less than a year later. He wasn't yet 40. I don't know that this horrid year caused it, or even contributed to it...but I suspect it did, and even if it didn't, it sure didn't help. A year of maximum stress and terrible sleep loss will take their toll.

[c-rational]

109. K&R - Thank you NanceGreggs, well said.

[Tommymac]

110. K & R for Truth and Due Process nt

[The Wizard]

112. Roger Stone wrote the book

on false sexual harassment complaints. They all surface within a week. Cross examination is a tool to expose liars. Let them file legal complaints, and let the chips fall where they may.

[Escurumbele]

113. Nance, you are a jewel...Yes, women lie as well as men do.

I have seen it in court as well, and I have seen women put up a show that if Hollywood producers had been in the court they would have hired them, they even manage to cry at the right moment, but like you said, in an instant their act just crumbles and the truth comes out.

We lost Al Franken, I wish he had not resigned as fast as he did, but nonetheless it was Democrats who pushed it, we must stop the pre-judgement, or like you said, side with the women because "they sound credible".

My last point is that, why not complain at the moment you claim it happened? Did you think it was OK then?

I always have my suspicions when things like this happen, and they all point to republicans, and to people who have no issue selling their souls for political power.

[mcar]

114. Listen to accusers, investigate allegations

Let's cease the rush to judgment.

[Silver1]

115. I completely agree with you.

I know someone personally who was being set up by a young woman in her 20's for exactly this kind of scenario.

Thankfully her story fell apart and the attempt failed. But had she succeeded, she would have destroyed her target's career, family, future. Later it was found out she was mentally unstable and had a pattern of doing this kind of thing. No doubt she will target others in the future. Destroy - it's what she does.

So the breaks really need to be put on right now. There will be an investigation - good. There's a big difference between foolish behavior and predatory behavior.

[AZProgressive]

116. I Was a Sex-Crimes Prosecutor. Here's Why 'He Said, She Said' Is a Myth

Americans have been told a dangerous myth. It is an old but enduring one, which gives its beneficiaries unwarranted power — and in many instances, is demonstrably false. The myth is that allegations of rape and sexual assault are often simply a matter of “he said, she said”; that when a woman accuses a man of a sexual assault and the man denies it, there is no way to discern the truth and the justice system is impotent. But so-called “he said, she said” cases can almost always reveal much more — if they are properly investigated.

Like many myths, the legend of “he said, she said” originated centuries ago. Under old English law, rape prosecutions could not be brought unless every material element of the victim’s story was corroborated by another witness or evidence. Because sexual assaults don’t usually happen in crowded pubs, this rule effectively barred many cases. Victims of any other type of crime — muggings, robberies, physical assaults — could provide the sole testimony at trial. Rape victims were uniquely excluded from the criminal justice system.

This exception was steeped in misogyny. The judges creating the law were all men; rape victims were overwhelmingly women. Women had lower status in that society, and rape claims were one of the few instances where a woman’s word might legally diminish a man’s authority. The institutionalized skepticism of female testimony was based on a medieval male fear of losing power.

The corroboration requirement lasted for hundreds of years and became law in the United States. It blocked the prosecution of most rapes. For example, a study in 1969 showed that New York City’s corroboration requirement resulted in eighteen rape convictions out of 1,085 arrests. An outcry in the 1960s and ‘70s caused many jurisdictions to reconsider their requirement, leading to some notorious debates. Arguing that New York’s requirement was necessary, famed midcentury jurist Morris Ploscowe reasoned that “ladies lie.” Nevertheless, New York abolished its requirement in 1972. Today, most jurisdictions have deleted their corroboration requirement.

https://news.yahoo.com/sex-crimes-prosecutor-why-said-153008089.html

This is worth reading. Police focused on inconsistencies and pressured her to claim she made it up and eventually charged with her a false report. Well a serial rapist was later arrested who took pictures of the rape so it turns out she was telling the truth

https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story


Upon Further Review: Inside the Police Failure to Stop Darren Sharper’s Rape Spree

(Snip)

It wasn't enough for the district attorney's office. This was a "heater" — police shorthand for a high profile case. Prosecutors were hesitant to move too quickly on a local football hero with deep pockets and savvy lawyers, according to two individuals with knowledge of the investigation. They held off on an arrest warrant.

https://www.propublica.org/article/police-fail-stop-nfl-darren-sharper-rape-spree

Less than 1% of all rapes result in felony convictions

About 0.7 percent of rapes and attempted rapes end with a felony conviction for the perpetrator, according to an estimate based on the best of the imperfect measures available.

On the other side of the incident, at least 89 percent of victims report some level of distress, including high rates of physical injury, post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety and substance abuse.

There has been much wringing of hands about the damage done to American men by accusations of sexual assault, as brilliantly chronicled this week by The Washington Post’s Philip Rucker and Robert Costa.

But any fretting on behalf of those accused of assault should take into account research that shows that millions of victims of sexual assault have paid a serious, measurable price, physically and mentally.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/10/06/less-than-percent-rapes-lead-felony-convictions-least-percent-victims-face-emotional-physical-consequences/

I realize Cuomo is only accused of sexual harassment (which was an open secret long before these stories broke) but I wanted to address he said/she said. We don't have he said/she said robberies and they are unlikely to have film or witnesses because these things tend to happen in private.

[BootinUp]

117. K&R

[wendyb-NC]

118. Thank you

I agree 100%.

To me Coumo is one of the voices of truth, regarding the pandemic. His daily briefings, were fact based and full of rationale for masks, social distancing, and sheltering at home. Since the corona virus, that causes, Covid-19, is a new form of the virus, not much was known about it, it had never been seen in people before and was traveling all over the planet, people were dying from it at a higher rate than the flu.
He was a leader, at at a time when the previous administration was holding back, or distorting the facts about it, and censoring sane, experts like Dr Fauci. There was no leader ship, there was no sense of the urgency that was truly needed, then. It became a political melee.

I will hold back on judging Gov. Como, until the all the evidence is in.

[marieo1]

120. Agree 110%

Thank you, Nance Greggs......I agree 110%.........I feel the same about all the hype about Gov. Cuomo's reaction to Covid. Covid hit all of us like a 1000 lb brick and no one knew for sure what they were dealing with. It's been a long hard road for all of us and I believe Gov. Cuomo handled it extremely well considering that it was a new pandemic and no one knew what they were dealing with for sure. I praise Gov. Coumo and think he did a great job of dealing with it and all the negativity. Who is behind all negativity.........The Governor is going after DJT............makes one wonder!!!!

[Blue Owl]

121. K&R

[Wild blueberry]

123. Thank you.

[Dorian Gray]

124. This is insane

The man has been caught in lie after bullying after harassment accusations.

Of course an investigation should happen. He is my Governor. I voted for him. But he should also make amends for what he is done.

He should stop being a jerk.

He should stop micromanaging.

If his administration did falsify the data about who died where because he was afraid it made him look bad... he should resign.

The harassment/discomfort the women are explaining is inappropriate behavior. HE should never do it again.

Circling our wagons around him if he's done wrong puts us on the wrong side of this.

Gah....

This whole thing STINKS.

[Stinky The Clown]

126. Brava, Nance Greggs

I, too, wish to wait until the facts - not rumor, ill will, politics, innuendo, smears - are laid out.

I don't even think he is guilty or not guilty.

I know this will piss off some people here, but the accuser must also stand up to scrutiny.

Rape most likely has some physical evidence. Unwanted touching is less clear. Accusations now, in the midst of a heating political climate around the accused, ought to be more rigorously investigated.

As has been cited before, the "Al Franken rule" is one of the worst political hit jobs ever. I am not saying that *is* afoot here. But I *am* saying it *could be* afoot here. And keep in mind there were more than one Franken accuser.

[Texin]

129. I'm in full agreement. This has the faint whiff of a political hit job to me.

We've seen this before, and Al Franken was thrown under the bus by a Roger Stone-targeted hit job and greedy Dems who wanted to eliminate their political competition for the presidency. Why are the three women coming forward now? Why were they not willing to speak before this? We saw a similar attempt about a year or eighteen months ago by some scam artist who was accusing Biden of groping her in a public park. Her tall tale lasted all of about a New York minute before it all fell apart. Since neither Stone nor tRump are in jail right now, my spidey sense tells me that they have (or someone else within right wing groups) are at it again.

[Martin68]

130. It is seldom a black and white situation in which there is no doubt about who is guilty. We need to

find an approach that will protect the rights of both parties when such an accusation is leveled. The idea that "the woman is always right" is so simplistic it is absurd.

[Ferrets are Cool]

131. K and R

I am sick and tired of our good people being thrown out of politics because of hearsay.

And innuendo.

[bucolic_frolic]

132. This is a great OP and a great thread

YouTube is sprinkled with cases of lying and cheating women, often provoking the demise of their husband or their ex. A great manipulator can convince a new flame to do the deed, or hire a hit man. And these are just the giant lies that make the headlines. As the lying bar gets lower, the lies are easier to tell.

People placing their political bets for career enhancement might have motivation to lie about a politician once the news starts flowing. All it takes is a bit of cynicism and motivation. Currying favor to others or up and comers is hardly a new angle.

I'm all for equality. Allowing one gender to automatically occupy the sweet little innocent role who is offended at every word will make for a divided future with little interaction.

So I applaud the OP. It really needed to be said and it should be widely distributed.

[pamdb]

136. yes

Completely agree. Men lie, women lie. People lie.

At the time of Al Franken I kept saying "don't go, fight it, at least wait" and I think he was
railroaded by the Democratic rush to avoid any hint of a scandal. Look at Ralph Northam,
admittedly it was racial, not sexual, but he hung in and survived.

I have no oar in the water with Cuomo. I dont live in NY, don't know him or anything about him except what I saw during his Covid briefings.

Let the man have his day in court. And the women who accused him should also be in court.

[bluboid]

140. the sanity of your words soothes the Soul!

THANK YOU!

[Red Raider 85]

141. 35 year attorney here. You are spot on.

[ClusterFreak]

142. If I could rec this post a billion times I would.

Since I can't, one rec will have to do.

[FoxNewsSucks]

145. Couldn't agree more.

And it's such a coincidence how these things happen when it's an influential Democrat.

Roger Stone is laughing his ass off.

[Kath2]

146. Thank you.

This needs to be said.

[FlyingPiggy]

147. Well said!

[JPPaverage]

148. I knew a guy once..

This guy got accused of rape. He got arrested, was able to post bail but still lost his job, house, and family. The woman recanted IN COURT, and he was cleared. He still didn't have a job, house or family but he was free.
He finally found a job for around half the money he was making before but he was living in a crummy little one bedroom apartment. He tried to file a lawsuit against his accuser but it was thrown out of court. He is now dead from cancer but the woman basically ruined his life and she never apologized. Her and my now ex wife were friends and the ex, who was about the last friend she had, abandoned her. So the woman was a pariah but that doesn't excuse what she did. So I guess the moral of our story is do not rush to judgment. It could destroy a life.

[Ford_Prefect]

149. In the middle of the worst pandemic on record THIS is the headline?????????????????????

Trump is about to face courtroom justice like he's never seen and suddenly these several women are the most important witnesses that MSM can follow.

I am soooooo tired of the dog-whistle blowing by the MSM press who can't be bothered to do their homework longer than it takes to file a juicy headline. There may be reasons to examine Cuomo's past behavior, and to consider what these women are saying happened.

There are also people dying by the thousands daily, people who need a good advocate who will get the job done.

I think we desperately need some meaningful perspective here.

When you have the governors of Florida, Texas and South Dakota actively pursuing policies that will accelerate the spread of COVID and a NY state health care system on the brink of collapse, you don't go scapegoating a governor who stood up to Trump and the deniers, and who still has more to do. You don't pull the quarterback out of the game when you need every player you've got.

To me this resembles what was done to Al Franken in terms of the rush to decide based on allegations and rumors. It also has the same very suspect timing, regardless of what the particular women may have to say.

I don't ask why they waited to tell it now. I am asking why is NOW when they decided to tell it and to whom did they tell it first? This has all the earmarks of a Roger Stone operation in terms of timing and scope.

[Dagstead Bumwood]

151. K & R.

Well said.

[soldierant]

152. " To say 'believe the woman no matter what' ...

is no different than saying 'believe the white person no matter what'.'

While both are equally erroneous, I think there is a difference. Either of these framings would IMO be more accurate:

To say 'believe the woman no matter what' is no different than saying 'believe the black person no matter what'.

To say 'believe the man no matter what' is no different than saying 'believe the
white person no matter what'.

Because there is an imbalance of power.

But yes, anyone can lie, and all claims of injury should be investigated.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

153. Lies and Innuendo??

There was a picture of him with his hands over a sleeping women's breast?? Democrats are the party of facts, let's stick to the facts.

[FakeNoose]

155. If you're referring to the photo of Al Franken ...

... that photo was posed. It was a joke. And the woman in the photo participated in the joke.
The same photo was later used by political opponents to bring down a powerful Democratic opponent.