Joe Manchin, Crucial Stimulus Vote, Pushes Senate Dems to Give Fewer People $1,400 Checks

[MillenialDemLXXXIII]

Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia is using his crucial vote to push Democrats into lowering the income threshold of the $1,400 stimulus checks in President Joe Biden's $1.9 trillion relief package.

He also wants to lower the unemployment bonus to $300 and is very much critical of the $350 billion state and local government aid for state and local governments.

In addition to further targeting the checks, Manchin has also expressed concern at the high price tag attached to the $350 billion in aid to state and local governments and indicated that he wants to lower the $400 weekly federal unemployment benefits. I'm "very supportive" of $300 instead, he said Monday. "We're negotiating."

https://www.newsweek.com/joe-manchin-crucial-stimulus-vote-pushes-senate-dems-give-fewer-people-1400-checks-1573037

I respectfully disagree with everything Senator Manchin is negotiating for here.

[Ka-Dinh Oy]

1. Well, I disagree with everything Manchin is negotiating with NO respect.

I hope I do not get in trouble for saying that.

[MillenialDemLXXXIII]

3. I hear ya

I could say a lot more as well, but can't at this time. Maybe I'll put it this way, "with 'friends' like these, who needs enemies?"

[Ka-Dinh Oy]

4. In this situation that saying is just right.

[Beartracks]

2. Know what else has a high price tag?

NOT providing economic assistance to those who got canned in Trump's pandemic economy, NOT providing assistance to those who have been hospitalized or are living with chronic COVID recovery systems, NOT providing financial assistance to businesses, schools, and governments to upgrade and Build Back Better...

Sometimes, cutting a massive check to fix a massive problem is NOT the most expensive course of action. Sometimes, there are no cheap or affordable options, and often in those situations doing nothing -- or doing only PART of what needs to be done -- is going to be the way, way more expensive path to choose.

=========

[Celerity]

5. He is potentially going be a principal driver of us getting our arses handed to us in 2022/24.

First off, I do NOT want to primary Manchin in 2024.

I also FULLY understand that without him we would lose the Senate now.

BUT, the odds are not great he wins in 2024 (if he even runs again) as he will not have a 'once in a generation' set of circumstances that lead to the 2018 Blue Wave backing him (even with that he barely won) and likely will have a far stronger Rethug running against him.

In the meantime, over the next almost 4 years, he is going to potentially shit all over large parts of Biden's (and most all Dems') agendas, and potentially cause us a shedload of electoral harm in 2022 and 2024, plus hurt millions of Americans by proxy (by his blocking of vitally needed programmes and initiatives).

He truly needs to just play ball and not give a toss about where he goes to work on Jan 3, 2025.

We are potentially going to be crucified on a cross of Manchinian 'conservadem' capriciousness.

What good does him potentially winning in 2024 do IF we, in some part due to his actions over the next almost 4 years, lose the Senate and/or the House (and dog forbid the POTUS)?

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. We have that bird (trifecta of Senate/House/POTUS) NOW!

We need to get shit done.

The nation simply cannot be held to the conservative West Virginia standard. If we, as a party had operated like this for the last 55-60 years, people of colour like me (not to mention my fellow LGBTQ+ folk more recently) would have been FUCKED in terms of so much.

[rpannier]

12. I trhink Gov Justice will run in 2024 and that will be the end of any statewide D in WV

Jim Justice has come out in favor of $2,000 w/o the strings that Manchin wants
Manchin got outmaneuvered by Justice.
If Manchin doesn't go along with the 2k, Justice will hammer him for it
If Manchin does go for it, Justice will claim that he forced Manchin to back down

[Celerity]

14. sound logic, and this strengthens my own reasoning even more

A foot in the past and one in the future equals pissing all over the present (if you are referring to a man, which Manchin is).

I put the first 2 provisos (I do not want to primary him, and I do understand that as of now he gives us a majority) in my reply as I see many try to turn the entire subject of Manchin into a narrow discussion of those 2 things, both of which are not germane to my discussion as I understand that a primary is hopeless and obviously we do not want him to switch parties.

It is far beyond that narrow half-argument, and to ignore the difference between future potentiality as opposed to actual reality of the present is perilous at best.

Also (and your reply supports this as well) i have yet to have one person (and I have asked many) explain to me how his shafting of people in his home state (voters, Dem voters and Rethug cross-overs) out of a little more than 8000 usd per year (8K is the full-time yearly gap between 11 usd ph and 15 usd ph at 40 hours per week) in pay helps get him re-elected. The same for a large reduction in the number of people getting a COVID cheque. Add whatever else he is going to block (I would have to see those things on a case by case basis to render judgement).

[Sgent]

24. I agree but it doesn't change the math

if we call his bluff he may very well call ours, and then we have to rely on Mitch McConnel to Sheppard Biden's policies through. The only advantage to that is we can blame Mitch for all of our woes, but its rare that a President can run against a Senate majority leader.

[Celerity]

34. I understand that it does not change the math, I was only laying out a case for why he should play

ball completely with Biden and the rest, plus trying to expose some of the poor reasons that are used to justify/excuse his obstructionism.

He is so frustrating and that one damn seat's (and it is by no means a sure thing he wins, in fact, as another poster helped lay out, it is more likely he loses in 2024 or doesn't run than it is he wins) potential hold, almost 4 years out, may well fuck us hard in the meantime.

He could do TREMENDOUS good NOW if he just seized the day, and carried us over the line on all the things he is blocking, threatening to block, or will block.

It really is an all-round shit situation, and unfortunately the only one who can sort it is Manchin himself. That I fully admit.

I have serious doubts he will sort it. He is very likely to looked upon, after he is gone, with the same negative light as Lieberman is now, and perhaps, if things truly go pear-shaped due to his shenanigans, even worse than Lieberman. ironically both are Joes.

[Celerity]

7. He endorsed that ratfucker Susan Collins in 2020 too. She played that up hard, saying it proved she

was a bi-partisan, pragmatic Republican, the type Maine citizens love (bullshit). I so wish that Stephen King had run against Collins. He would have CRUSHED her. He is a native (the lack of being one helped doom Gideon, she was a native Rhode islander until she moved to Maine in the mid 2000's, in her 30's), incredibly loved Maine legend.

[msongs]

8. so we can put him down as a no vote nt

[scarletwoman]

9. Somehow, someone needs to come up with a way to make him sweet.

It's really unacceptable that this one contrary conservadem from a miserable ass-backwards state can hold up everything good that the Dems are trying to accomplish.

[OnDoutside]

10. If you need evidence why Dems need to work their butts off to

Win even one more Senate seat in 2022, there's this.

I sincerely hope that this is about carving some extras for WV.

[Celerity]

19. 2 more, as Sinema's just as conservative and as likely to block as Manchin, she just isn't as flash.

For us to win a net two gain we need to hold our 4 vulnerable seats (in order of threat, Warnock in GA, NV (especially if Sandoval runs), NH (especially if Sununu runs), and Kelly in AZ)

and win the two easiest open (PA and NC) seats

Beating that absolute piece of dogshit Ron Johnson in WI would allow us to lose one of the 4 and still have a 52-48 majority.


FL is pretty hard (unless Trumpian shenanigans scupper Rubio)

OH is a real stretch (only reason we have any hope is Portman retiring and Ryan running)

The rest (I have seen IN, IA, KY, KS, and MO talked up as real chances for us to flip, and I really disagree, those states are solid ruby Red now) are likely not happening, especially given our first midterms of our Dem POTUS record (the nightmares of 1994 and 2010)


Bad potential wild card... VT

If Leahy retires (he is not in good heath atm, and is ageing out, he would be approaching (15 months away) 90 years old at the end of his next term if he runs again) and the very popular (he won by 41 points in 2020, 68% to 27%) Rethug Gov, Phil Scott runs, we may have a real dogfight on our hands.

[OnDoutside]

39. Agreed, which makes the HR1/VRA/S1 even more crucial than ever. Apparently the Biden Administration

is lining up the massive Infrastructure Bill next, which I can understand, but I don't think there is a minute to spare to get HR1/VRA/S1 over the line.

[Celerity]

40. Is there any chance Manchin and/or Sinema go pear shaped on HR1/VRA/S1? TIA

[OnDoutside]

44. What I think might be Biden's calculation in the sequence is that he has two shots of a

Reconciliation Bill (because last year they didn't do one, and this year).

His first shot is the Covid Relief Bill, and his second is the Infrastructure Bill. Get those done and it will make a massive difference to be seen as the Party that can gets things donw etc.

That leaves HR1/VRA/S1 (I believe) requiring a 60 threshold that they could push to the Parliamentarian, and at that point get the objection in, get the VP to vote that she disagrees, and you get past a filibuster vote. I think it would be very hard for Sinema and Manchin to kill HR1/John Lewis VRA/S1 that is all about Equal Rights and Election Integrity.

If they were to wait until Jan 2022, they would be taking an awful risk that one of the Dem Senators wouldn't have a mishap, especially with all the skullduggery that the GOP is currently up to, in terms of killing Mail in voting.

[uponit7771]

25. We need a better message / feedback infrastructure. We worked our butts off last time

... and we still lost seats due to the kGOP ascribing a slogan no one ran on.

[Sibelius Fan]

11. No Congressperson ever gets everything they want, Joe, including you.

And I’m a little sick of people being paid $174,000 a year at taxpayer expense telling the rest of us we can’t afford or don’t deserve a lousy $1400 and/or $400 a week in Fed unemployment benefits.

[Celerity]

46. working off your username, why didn't Sibelius run for the open seat in 2020?

I was all over the Senate races (2018 and 2020, now I am on to 2022 since the 2020 elections ended) since I joined the board, and her refusal to run for that open seat was one of my bigger disappointments in 2020.

All the local KS newspapers I read she was our ONLY hope to win, and that she would have had a 55-60% or so chance of actually winning versus Marshall, and a 70-75% chance versus the vermin Kobach (shame he lost, even Bollier might have beaten him).

Other huge turns downs he had were

Tim McGraw (twice turned down open seats in TN, especially the 2018 really infuriated me, as he had promised he would run when he was 50 (he is 53 now) and had a weak candidate in the RWNJ and completely imbecile Blackburn,, plus that big Blue Wave.)

Stephen King in ME (I thik he would have crushed Collins, but instead we ran a very weak Gideon, who was hammered for not being a true Mainer, as she only moved to Maine in her 30's, in the mid 2000's, plus Manchin endorsed Collins, which gave her (it is bullshit) bi-partisan street cred she also hammered Gideon with)

Vilsack in IA, he would surely have given the MAGAt pig castrator fool Ernst a better race, Axne too

In Alaska we did not even field a candidate, and a previous winner, ex Sen Begich turned it down

NC, grr, Jeff Jackson (who is running and should hopefully win in 2022, turned it down, as did Stein and Foxx, all 3 were far better than the idiot Cunningham (he of the sexting scandal that blew out his lead in the end weeks, and put Manchin in his position of kingmaker) This race was our for the taking until Cunningham started think with his todger.

then two that did not matter who ran, we would have lost

TX was not going to happen, even if Beto had run, Cornyn was too strong

KY, once Beshear decided the year before to run for Governor, McTreason was a lock

Between TX, KY, SC (Harrison was never going to win, that one outlier poll more than a month before was SO overplayed, it deluded people), and ME (with Gideon) we pissed away over well 300 million usd on fantasy, wish fulfilment races, and actual decent shot campaigns like Bullock in MY and Greenfield in IA were cash starved, and never could counter the 200m in RW dark pool monies dump in the last 2 weeks or so. I blame the national apparatus for doing such a poor job recruiting (that is on Schumer and Cortez Masto) and also distributing funds late in the game.

[Sibelius Fan]

52. My user name is derived from the composer Jean Sibelius, not Kathleen Sebelius.

[Celerity]

53. Damn, my dyslexia kicked in late last night, So sorry to bother. I shall keep

searching for a Kansan who can suss me in!

[cstanleytech]

13. To be honest I have no real qualms over lowering the income for the cutoff as someone that still has

a job that is earning 75k is probably less in need of $1,400 compared to someone that is out of work or only earning 45k for example.
Of course what I really would like to see is a major infrastructure spending bill to repair our roads, bridges, dams and railroad systems as helping provide work for millions of people would help far more than a single check for $1,400.

[PA_jen]

20. Lucky you. I know a friend that normally makes that but she was laid off 3 months in 2020

Did to covid. She didn't get a dime of unemployment due to PA being broke she and others I know are waiting for claims to be paid. She could really use that $1400 to at least get caught up on bills.

[cstanleytech]

30. Might want to reread then as I said it isnt really needed for those that "have" a job that is

is paying them.
Those on furlough, underemployed or outright unemployed need the money.

[kcr]

50. The problem is it isn't based on their income from 2020

People who make 75,000 who didn't lose their jobs or get a pay cut may be ok, but many who did are struggling.

[uponit7771]

27. No, we need to pump the economy while its cheap no matter who has the money

... except for someone who has millions in assets seeing income and assets are two different things.

Bill Gates for instance doesn't earn a dime in income in his name and still gets a check !?

These people are grand standing and are going to be outflanked to the left by a MAGA Nazi seeing how popular the 2,000 checks are.

This is Manchin being really stupid

[cstanleytech]

31. Actually Gates earns plenty still as he has alot of stock and bonds not to mention any fees he might

charge for speaking engagements.

[uponit7771]

32. True, IE the "for instance" because there are people in Gates Position who don't have income

... worthy of note but have a lot of assets.

Manchin is stupid, he's going to be outflanked by a primary person on this issue.

Dems positions are popular and are responsive to people kGOP positions are not and don't have to respond to people because of messaging infrastructure, jerrymandering and voter suppression.

[Bonn1997]

47. But you're using 2019 income in 2021

[PA_jen]

15. Seriously! What the fuck! He basically stop the min wage section now this!

I am tired of Manchin excusers who say he is an asset! I don't see it. I know of 3 people who could use all 1400/2800 dollars. Thanks to PA they never got unemployment at all in 2020. They went 3 months without money because PA went broke! 1 friend was laid off 6 months. They still yet to see back unemployment forget the $600 extra every week.

Seriously, the Republicans don't have to do anything because Joey boy is doing the work for them!

Talk about eating your own!

[cstanleytech]

33. The minimum wage option being toted is still shit though.

Much better option is to use the Federal poverty level to set the minimum wage at 200% above that.

For example in 2020 it was $12,760 so we divide that by 54 weeks which = $236.00 a week + 200% that then equals $708 a week divided by 40 hours a week and that would equal $17.00 dollars an hour which is what it should be set at.
It then automatically adjusts every year on its own as the federal poverty level is updated and that is something that the Senate and House should not be allowed to have a word in setting.

[Celerity]

38. what calendar are you using?

For example in 2020 it was $12,760 so we divide that by 54 weeks which = $236.00 a week

Using your formula (but at 52 weeks) yields $18.40 per hour

[Bonn1997]

45. Why 54 weeks? 52 in a year

[jorgevlorgan]

16. Who's he negotiating with???

His own side??


That isn't negotiating, it's chopping off your own foot for a rotten fish.

[MillenialDemLXXXIII]

17. Stabbed in the back by Joe Lieberman in 2009/stabbed in the back by Manchin in 2021

Not sure who is better here. Joe Lieberman or Joe Manchin. Both seemed/seem intent on destroying the agendas of their respective Presidents. Lieberman was senator #60 and Manchin is #50. Parallels are striking. He can't truly be planning to sink the #1 agenda item of the new administration, can he??

[regnaD kciN]

28. And, unfortunately...

...every time that happens, people blame the person in the Oval Office for having "failed," and respond by voting for the opposition at the next midterm.

[badhair77]

18. He's feeling his oats as kingmaker. What an ego. I hope we can ekect

more Dems so we don’t need him as much.

[SergeStorms]

21. Not a surprise at all.

President Biden has to come up with something to keep Manchin in line. There has to be something Manchin has done, or hasn't done, that Biden can use as leverage to keep him in line. I'm really sick of Joe Manchin's bullshit, and I'm really looking forward to having a Senate without him in it. We'll have to pick up at least two more Senate seats, but they'd be actual Democrats instead of a part-time Democrat with an over-inflated sense of self importance. The Democratic party can't afford to have rogue members doing whatever they want when fascist republicans are waiting to turn our country into a dictatorship. They don't need any help from supposed "Democrats" to do it.

[Steven Maurer]

22. REMINDER: Senator Manchin was elected from a state that went for Trump 68.63% to 29.70%

West Virginia is an absolutely (and literally) ungodly R+38.93 state.

So no matter what you feel about about him, you are not getting a more liberal/progressive elected official out of there than you already have in Senator Joe Manchin.

Period.

[jorgevlorgan]

23. Also one where his predecessor seemed to do fine supporting the last min wage hike.

Half the major bills Byrd helped pass Manchin would be against,and he was far more popular than manchin will ever be.

[uponit7771]

29. +1, the positions don't matter the messaging does and the messaging infrastructure

... of democrats is lacking IMHO

[Steven Maurer]

61. That was before the "southern strategy"

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you cannot compare the days when southern and appalachian racists would reflexively vote Democratic because they hated Lincoln so much, and today.

By the way, Manchin is for a minimum wage hike. Just not to $15 an hour.

[dansolo]

42. Then we need to just forget about WV

I could understand if Manchin used his position to negotiate more for WV, but what I can't understand is that he is opposing things that are actually popular in his state. At this point, we need to focus on gaining more seats and making him irrelevant.

[diane in sf]

35. There must be some leverage found, created, whatever, on him and Synema.

Threats, bribes, whatever it takes.

[Deminpenn]

36. A possible work around would be to tie the stimulus

to area cost-of-living but with a $1400 max payment. This data already exists in the form of locality pay tables for federal civil servants. You could use whatever GS step equates to the current hard caps to determine the local income cap for stimulus payments.

[obamanut2012]

49. I would be okay with this

Blue urban and suburban areas with high CoL wouldn't be screwed over.

[Deminpenn]

56. Uneven costs of living is why the income caps are a thorny issue

Capping the max along with adjusting the income level to the local cost of living should make everyone happy. There's an entire department called the Bureau of Economic Analysis available to crunch the numbers.

75k/150k are generous for West Virginia, but not for high cost areas.

[secondwind]

37. What I don't understand about all of this is that his State

is one of the POOREST in the country.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

41. Why we need a UBI, Universal Basic Income.

And why everyone, every single taxpayer, should get SNAP, otherwise known as food stamps.

Those who don't need it, can figure out how to pass that benefit on to others. Meanwhile, those of us in a lower income group would happily make use of those benefits.

[Buckeyeblue]

43. What's Manchin's motivation?

I don't really understand why he is being nitpicky at the 11th hour. Is he just getting his name out there so WV knows he's "doing his job"? Even though the things he is wanting would hurt those who probably voted for him.

[Baitball Blogger]

48. Are West Virginians okay with this?

Of course they're not. Who is Manchin working for? What donor is pulling his strings right now?

[Callado119]

51. Yes?

They gave trump and right wing senator Caputo about 70% of the vote last year. They’d be perfectly happy if he didn’t support the bill just like their other senator unfortunately..

[bullwinkle428]

54. Here's the bottom line. If millions of people that received checks

under Trump do not receive additional checks under Biden, we will get destroyed in the 2022 midterms, and much of that blame will fall on our shoulders.

[Hotler]

55. Any rumors of Senator Joe Manchin receiving envelops of cash from

repug dark money PACs in a dimly lit parking garage is false.

[sarcasmo]

57. One Senator who represents less than 2 million people can

control the fate of 350 million.

[Autumn]

58. He got $260 million to clean the coal filth from his one state and he's complaining about

$350 billion spread out to 49 other states plus a cut for his state. Nice of him. But stupid

[tritsofme]

59. It would be political suicide for Democrats to create a class of voters who got checks from Trump

but not under Biden. I can’t believe this is even being discussed.

[quakerboy]

60. like ive been saying since we took over "majority" in the senate

They say they dont like the 1.9 pricetag.

So use the bill to repeal 1.9T in trumps tax cuts for the rich.. make it revenue neutral, and then watch the repubs come crawling back to negotiate for a higher cost bill.

Also.. set the negotiations. Instead of asking for what we wanted.. we should have thrown in $20 an hour minimum, $600 unemployment bonus, $4000 stimulus checks.. And let them negotiate us down to 15, 400, 2000

[gldstwmn]

62. We need to pick up more seats.

[kairos12]

63. What we have now is President Joe

Manchin.