Why does Kyrsten Sinema get a pass on the filibuster/minimum wage?

[TwilightZone]

Five million posts and threads about Manchin and near silence about Sinema.

She is also opposed to the minimum wage increase being included in the Covid bill.

Her position on the filibuster is actually worse than his. She wants 60% votes on nearly everything.

Even if Manchin agreed to both, they both still fail because of Sinema. Think he doesn't know that as well as anyone?

She arguably has less of an excuse. He's in a state Trump won by 40% and his constituents expect him to essentially be an independent, yet he votes with the Dems roughly 75%-80% of the time*.

She's in a state Biden won.

*https://projects.propublica.org/represent/members/M001183/votes-against-party/117

Edit: because I can see how this could be construed as a negative post toward Sinema, I'd like to clarify. I don't think either of them should be held to some idealistic standard that works in very blue states. Their independence, for lack of a better word, is a product of their political environments. They win in those states because of who they are, not who "we" think they should be.

We may not like it, but it's a big part of why they won and in Manchin's case, why he continues to win.

My point is that one is held to the standard and one is not. I'm curious why that's the case. While it seems unlikely, are some people simply unaware that she holds similar stances?

[In It to Win It]

1. Sinema doesn't get away with it but Manchin seems to be doing more interviews and saying more stupid

shit than Sinema so he gets most of the attention

[TwilightZone]

2. They've said many of the same things about both issues.

With the exception of her 60-vote stance, which is actually worse than Manchin's.

I suspect that some people think he's the only one who's opposed, though that seems unlikely.

[W_HAMILTON]

9. This.

[ChazII]

3. This is only a guess

but she promised the voters to represents all Arizonans. This is only my theory but if we want to keep both senate seats blue she has to walk a fine line.

[TwilightZone]

11. Manchin has been promising - and delivering - the same for years.

They have reelected him because he's essentially an independent. That's what they clearly want.

He represents his constituents. We (and I mean much of DU and a lot of Democrats) don't care about his constituents except when they happen to agree with us on something like the minimum wage.

[LonePirate]

20. She could eliminate the filibuster and always vote against legislation she does not like.

However, she doesn't want to do that. She wants to guarantee that the legislation does not pass (due to a stray Republican vote or two) while hiding behind some sort of nonsensical devotion to Senate purity and tradition.

[Trueblue1968]

4. i don't approve of either one of them

[abqtommy]

5. This isn't the first time I've read the name Sinema presented in a negative light.

I'm sure it's not the last time either.

[TwilightZone]

13. I don't have any problem with her.

I think you've misunderstood my point. He's excoriated while she's almost entirely ignored. Why is she not held to the same standard that Manchin is on those two issues?

Frankly, I'm glad she's not because I don't think Manchin should be held to some idealistic standard that works in very blue states, either. Their independence, for lack of a better word, is a product of their political environments. They win in those states because of who they are, not who "we" think they should be.

We may not like it, but it's a big part of why they won and in Manchin's case, continue to win.

[abqtommy]

21. No, I did read what you wrote.

[TwilightZone]

23. And formed an opinion that is now intractable.

Got it.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

6. I think her stance was opposing minimum wage as part of Covid relief

[TwilightZone]

25. That's the only way it would pass.

The only way to pass it is through reconciliation. Otherwise, it requires 60 votes. If she or Manchin opposes it in the bill, it's effectively dead there or elsewhere.

[PA_jen]

7. She isn't in my book.

[drray23]

8. Because she was not going around to every microphone

or camera to announce that she would oppose it. Manchin seemed to reveal into flaunting his power to screw up the bill.

[Celerity]

12. great explanatory article

Link to tweet

The most influential Democrat you never hear from

Kyrsten Sinema's defense of the Senate’s age-old rules is likely to frustrate progressives eager to use every tool at their disposal to advance their priorities.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/02/12/kyrsten-sinema-democrats-468768

[Bettie]

26. Yeah, reading that was a WTF moment

SO, apparently, she thinks that the best thing for our nation is eternal gridlock.

Whoo-fucking-hoo.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

28. No, she thinks the best thing for our nation is both sides working together

That's idealistic, and likely impossible in this climate, but that's what she's saying - not that she wants nothing to get done because of partisanship.

[Bettie]

30. Working with Republicans

only "works" if they get 100% of what they want AND they get to take things away from or harm people.

If she's unaware of how things have been going in this country, well, then she's certainly not been paying attention. One would think that as a senator she'd do that one thing.

[TwilightZone]

15. He's also been asked about it by every reporter within shouting distance.

He's also better known and, hence, a better target.

[Celerity]

10. I almost always mention her as well, & I also bring up her '60 votes needed for ALL Senate

legislation' ruinous standard. We deffo need a +2 net pickup in 2022 to neutralise her and Manchin.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215175635

[TwilightZone]

16. As I've said in other threads, we should pick up the seats before we call for his head.

There are no guarantees for picking up a seat in 2022, particularly combined with keeping what we have.

There are posts all over DU demanding he switch parties and/or that Democratic leadership strip him of power, etc.

Frankly, that's remarkably short-sighted and more than a little dumb.

You may be bringing up Sinema, but the vast, vast majority of DU acts like she doesn't exist. I'm curious as to why. I'm starting to think that some people simply have no idea that she has similar views.

[Celerity]

18. I never advocated primarying either, that would not work, and obviously either flipping parties is

a disaster.

We need to win at least a +2 net in 2022 to neutralise both. 3 if we want to flush the filibuster, as Feinstein is against that as well. Odds are decent, unfortunately, we lose the House in 2022 though, so it may all be moot.

Also, we are going into a 'first midterm for a Dem POTUS' election in 2022, and the last 2 (1994 and 2010) were utter disasters for us. In 2010 we lost a net 7 Senate seats and had a net loss of 63 House seats (versus where we were post 2008).

For us to win a net two gain we need to hold our 4 vulnerable seats (in order of threat, Warnock in GA, Cortez Masto in NV (especially if Gov. Sandoval runs), Hassan in NH (especially if Gov. Sununu runs), and Kelly in AZ, we dodged a bullet with Ducey refusing to run there) None of those will be easy at all, anyone claiming that they are locks for us is simply way out over their skis, especially as its the 1st midterms.

If we defend all our seats, we then need to win the two easiest open (PA and NC) seats.

The only other somewhat likely shot is beating that absolute piece of dogshit Ron Johnson in WI would allow us to lose one of the 4 and still have a 52-48 majority, but WI will be tough, the MAGAts are dug in like tics there and the KEY Milwaukee A-A vote is the hardest to turn out of most any major city, especially for off-POTUS-year elections.

FL is quite likely harder than WI (unless Trumpian shenanigans scupper Rubio) but is in the realm of possibility.

OH is a real stretch (only reason we have any hope is Portman retiring and Ryan running)

The rest (I have seen IN, IA, KY, KS, and MO talked up as real chances for us to flip, and I probably disagree, those states are solid ruby Red now) are likely not happening, especially given our first midterms of our Dem POTUS record.


Bad potential wild card... VT

If Leahy retires (he is not in good heath atm, and is ageing out, he would be approaching (15 months away) 90 years old at the end of his next term if he runs again) and the very popular (he won by 41 points in 2020, 68% to 27%) Rethug Gov, Phil Scott runs, we may have a real dogfight on our hands.

[TwilightZone]

19. I laugh any time I see the demand that Manchin be primaried.

It's sarcastic laughter, but laughter nonetheless. Manchin could quite possibly be the only Democrat in the entire country who could hold a Senate seat in a state Trump won by 40%. WV ran a progressive for the other seat in 2020. She got demolished.

I pretty much agree with your analysis of the possibilities. While I agree on the historical basis for losing seats in 2022, this is a pretty unique cycle. In a time of unprecedented partisanship, Biden's approval ratings are pretty remarkable and I think it's because people perceive that he's getting stuff done and turning things around.

That being the case, I think we need to look at the political reality and act accordingly. Figure out what will pass 51/50 and get to work. Get what we can, work hard on 2022, and reevaluate accordingly.

[Celerity]

22. here are my specific thoughts on Manchin (and I can offer no easy solution)

He is potentially going be a principal driver of us getting our arses handed to us in 2022/24, unfortunately.

First off, I do NOT want to primary Manchin in 2024.

I also FULLY understand that without him we would lose the Senate now.

BUT, the odds are not great he wins in 2024 (if he even runs again) as he will not have a 'once in a generation' set of circumstances that lead to the 2018 Blue Wave backing him (even with that he barely won) and likely will have a far stronger Rethug running against him. Governor Jim Justice may well run against him, and has somewhat outflanked Manchin on parts of the left (Justice saying 'Go Big or Go Home' on the COVID bill, on the relief cheques (Justce doesn't want the low cut-off Manchin wants) and also his support for a minimum wage hike, perhaps equalling Manchin's 11 usd, although I do not think Justice will say 15 usd) as well as the right (Justice is a Rethug and Trump supporter after all).

In the meantime, over potentially the next almost 4 years (certainly, without a doubt the next 2), Manchin is going to potentially shit all over large parts of Biden's (and most all Dems') agendas, and potentially cause us a shedload of electoral harm in 2022 and 2024, plus hurt millions of Americans by proxy (via his potential blocking of vitally needed programmes and initiatives, many at the core of the Biden agenda).

He truly needs to just play ball and not give a toss about where he goes to work on Jan 3, 2025. (this is my only solution, and it is weak, lolol)

We are potentially going to be crucified on a cross of Manchinian 'conservadem' capriciousness, all over an almost 4 years in the future iffy run.

What good does him potentially winning in 2024 do IF we, in some part due to his actions over the next almost 4 years, lose the Senate and/or the House (and dog forbid the POTUS)? Voters do not like broken promises, and most are NOT going to get down into the weeds of Senate minutiae for a reason/excuse as to why we failed (if we do).

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. We have that bird (trifecta of Senate/House/POTUS) NOW

We need to get shit done before we lose this golden window.

The nation simply cannot be held to the conservative West Virginia standard. If we, as a party had operated like this for the last 55-60 years, people of colour like me (not to mention my fellow LGBTQ+ folk more recently) would have been FUCKED in terms of so much. I so hope Manchin comes to his senses and puts the good of the nation before a speculative, almost 4 years in the future dice roll, that may well end up a Pyrrhic victory.



The filibuster is killing us as well, and the 3 (Manchin, Sinema, and Feinstein) who are solid NO votes on binning it are really hurting us on that front too.

The filibuster hurts only Senate Democrats -- and Mitch McConnell knows that. The numbers don't lie.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215175635

[Bettie]

27. I laugh every time I hear about how he should be

praised and petted for voting with the party once in a blue moon.

There's someplace between saying he's the best and brightest and being annoyed that he cares only for his ego.

[Autumn]

14. She hasn't been all over tying to lower the amount and the threshold for the stimulus.

Unless the media isn't covering her doing it. Her twitter feed is all about helping people, AZ and other important issues. His is all about the military and bipartisanship and WV. Just looking at their feeds you would guess she leans Democratic, he's conservative.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

24. Sinema was far left when she was a state rep in AZ

She's tacked right nationally, but I think that's more about holding her seat and trying to be representative of, as she says, all Arizonans, than any ideological shift or opposition to the Democratic agenda.

I also think her statements on the minimum wage and stimulus have been more nuanced. She's expressed that she doesn't feel the minimum wage should be part of COVID relief, but I don't think she's actually said it shouldn't be raised. Her priority is getting assistance to the state and getting more shots in arms.

On an issue important to me, she was instrumental in getting the Save Our Stages act passed, which will help a lot of my friends in the live music industry.

[Bettie]

29. I suspect it has to do with her discovering

big donors and giving them what they want.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

31. She doesn't break with the party where her vote is critical

Call that cowardly, but her bipartisanship isn't really advancing the Republican agenda. It's voting with them when they already have the majority without her, or against them when the Democrats already have the votes. It infuriates the left, but it makes her voting record hard to attack from the right while not really making a difference.

[Locutusofborg]

17. Trump beat Biden by 39 points in WV

and Biden got 10,457 more votes than Trump in Arizona. To me, that explains it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

32. Don't worry, she doesn't get a pass from me

Both her and Manchin stink.