A fight is brewing at my grandkids school district

[ripcord]

The very small school district my grandkids attend is discussing a no zero policy in grading where the lowest score a student can receive is 50% even if they turn in no work at all. The school board along with some teachers and administrators are backing the plan but the overwhelming majority of parents are against it and things are heating up. I personally don't see how rewarding students for doing nothing is helping them to succeed unless we are planning at some point to force employers to pay everyone at least 50% of their salaries even if they do no work.

[Bettie]

1. What is the reasoning behind this?

It doesn't make sense at all.

[ripcord]

3. Supposedly its helps keep students from getting discouraged.

[paleotn]

4. Ugh. Not that again.

Prepare kids for the real world where disappointments are inevitable, not fairy unicorn land.

[Turbineguy]

7. One of my mottoes in college was

"Man does not live on discouragement alone."

In English 101 we were required to turn in a paper every Monday. No paper, Zero. That meant you had to get two A's to get an F.

[Hortensis]

19. Whereas 58% means one quiz could pull a grade up to a big "C" carrot.

[Rocknation]

5. Something about how a zero can be so damaging to the kid's self-esteem

it can take away their incentive to even TRY to improve.


rocktivity

[Ms. Toad]

8. This is an old re-kindled argument. Went through it in my school district in the 70s and 80s.

Let's say a school district is on semesters (just to paint the best argument for this scheme). Whether you pass the year (or have to retake the class) depends on whether your average, at the end of the year, i above 60% (or whatever the cutoff is for passing).

If you don't bother to turn a thing in 1st semester and earn 0%, why even bother doing anything second semester? The highest you can earn for the year is 50% (0% + 100%)/2 = 50%. So you're stuck with kids who have no hope of passing that you ave to try to motivate to work during the second semester - even though they know they will be retaking the class.

So the goal was to avoid taking away all hope from students who were doomed to fail, no matter what they did.

Obviously, the more grading periods, the less this makes any sense.

My argument to the contrary was that I had students who were working as hard as they could, and couldn't manage to earn much more. It was unfair to reward the goof-offs by giving them almost the same grade as those who were working their hardest.

There are other ways to address the problem:

Go to a 4.0 grading system (where there isn't a huge point range in what is failing (0-1, as opposed to 0-59). Create a look-back system: Promise students who steadily improve their performance that they will only be penalized 1 letter grade for 1st grading period performance, etc.

[KentuckyWoman]

15. I really like your idea about "look back"

Stuff happens. A kid goes through a move, an illness, a big change in family dynamic, a whole range of emotional situations - that can affect school performance temporarily. Help them jump start back on track by reminding them where they were is a fantastic idea ... grade wise and mentally.

[Bettie]

17. The way you suggested makes sense

I can see encouraging kids who don't have the ability or the support to make good grades not lose hope.

I suppose in a lot of cases the kids that don't even make an effort probably have little support at home.

[Ms. Toad]

21. There were a lot of different factors in my school district.

I worked in an inner city, very poor, district. In the 11 years I taught there I had one non-minority student. Parents in that district had not lost hope - and supported their students, but many didn't now how to provide effective support. I also turned a blind eye to many I knew were living out-of-district because our school district was better than the big city we bordered, so many borrowed an address from a relative in order to enroll (or just didn't change their address when they moved out of district).

We had a large transient population. In the classes with the weakest students only 1/3 of the class I started with ended the year with me. The class was the same size at the end of the year, so that meant I had to integrate 2/3 new students who appeared at various times throughout the year.

The class I taught was the second mandatory math class (before they started requiring algebra). I called the lowest level "1+1=2."
The one I taught I referred to as, "Now that you know 1+1 = 2, what can you do with it." I tossed the (insultingly juvenile) book and did what I could to make it useful math. (I treated the classroom as a work environment - they had to clock in and clock out, determine the hours they had worked for the day, week, etc. I started simply with the wages - I'd give them a "paycheck" in a ridiculously low amount - and ask them if that was what they had earned for the week. Most agreed, so we had a chat about making sure they could calculate what they should have been paid in order to make sure their employer was not taking advantage of them. Later I added tax computation, savings, comparison shopping, etc. I also implemented calculator use. (This was in the day when barely any schools permitted it.) The deal was that I could let my students use calculators during the semester but they could not use calculators on the final exam (the same exam for all classes, regardless of who taught them). It was a risk, but I decided to take it. The first year I was surprised that my student performed better - even when their calculators were taken away. I hadn't expected it, but perhaps I should have: freed from the struggle to do arthmetic, my students because much better at the concepts.

I did so well that I was rewarded with more of this class than anyone else taught - BUT - doing well meant that slightly more than half of my students passed. And - 11 years into teaching - I was completely burned out because of all of the individualized grading this required. (Now - it would be much easier, but we were working off of Commodore 64s - and I had to program anything that I used to help with grading).

That class was made up of people who were truly struggling (those who somehow made it to high school without being able to do basic arithmetic), and those who couldn't remain in the classroom long enough to earn enough points to pass. Some of the latter group was incredibly bright - but their parents moved frequently, they (the kids) were in juvenile detention for part of the year - or suspended or expelled, just got regularly kicked out of class (in Ohio if a student was not behaving in class, we had the ability to send them to the principal's office for the day), or lost time working to pay the family bills - or giving birth.

Another big factor was that in the district I taught in there was a no-fail policy. The only way a student repeated a year was if the parents agreed. Most didn't because of the social stigma. The policy terminated, so once they hit 9th grade, 1/3 or so had to repeat 9th grade. Often more than once. So we had a 9R class that was larger than any other class.

I'm definitely in favor of not making one bad grading period something they can't recover from. BUT not in a way that encourages them to make life miserable for all those trying to learn. Using a look-back period helps with that. I did it informally with my students when I saw students who needed to be rewarded for where they were at the end of the year, rather than where they were at the start.

But - there's too much risk in telling students up front - you can just blow off the first X grading periods - we'll make sure you don't have such a low grade that you can't recover.

[Hortensis]

20. Our grandkids (and their parents) now get continuous computerized

performance reports. Without needing to do any calculations, they can see at a glance that the average in a class just dropped to an 89 but that a B on the next quiz will restore it to 90%, an A to 93%. Etc.

Btw, IMO grade competition doesn't compete with making schooling optimally beneficial for each individual. Only as it might somehow contribute to the latter.

[Rocknation]

2. I'm against it because it "discriminates" against those who earn their mark of 50 "legitimately".

Last edited Thu Sep 2, 2021, 01:12 PM - Edit history (11)

Where is THEIR incentive to work harder?

(I thought I had passed a certification exam by the skin of my teeth with a 70. When I found out that the grading was on a scale on 100 - 900 rather than 0 - 100, I calculated that I'd actually scored an 83!)


rocktivity

[Ms. Toad]

9. Same argument I made back in the 70s & 80s.

When the concept came up in the school where I taught.

[Bettie]

12. What's their incentive to work at all

if the kid who never even shows up gets the same score they do?

[tirebiter]

6. This is why we have summer school

[Ms. Toad]

11. Just to play devil's advocate -

(since I battled against this very concept decades ago)

Just what do you do with the trouble-makers (and they nearly alway are) who are required to be in you class for the rest of the year with zero chance of passing?

[albacore]

26. Move them to a special class... where they can succeed at SOMEthing...

Very low student/teacher ratio. Special teachers. Counseling. Kinetic learning. Computers. Time.
Lots of different styles of learning.
Only problem I saw in 30 years of teaching is lack of money to specialize for problem kids. Can't find the right teacher for the situation at $35K per year? Try $70K. No counselors? Hire some. Don't have the facilities? Build some. Don't have the money? Find some.

Or... just dump those losers out into society.. to join the prison community.
I think the most expensive education we could give a kid costs less than the $81K per inmate it costs in California.

I don't say that every kid can be a rocket surgeon, but (nearly) every kid can learn something from the right teacher/system.

Maybe we could cancel the F-35... or something...and spend that money on the kids.
https://www.time4learning.com/learning-styles/

[Ms. Toad]

30. In the classes I taught,

that would shift very close to half to a special class.

Most of the problems the students who truly need a 50% = the lowest grade aren't dumb, and don't even necessarily need a special class. That would have been abou 75 students a year, from the 3 classes I taught alone. There were 10-20 other math classes - the vast majority with a higher failure rates than mine. Not to mention English, Social Studies, Science, etc.

They needed attention earlier in their educational career (our district had a no-fail policy until students hit 9th grade). So they were passed along year after year without mastering the content.

They needed a stable living situation. Many parents in the district saved up money for first and last month's rent, moved to our community from the housing projects in the inner city. Stayed there until they were evicted because they had no money beyond the first and last month's rent. They moved back to the projects and started the cycle over again.

They need to have enough family income (and fewer family members in jail) so that students did not have to work to help support the family.

And so on.

It has very little to do with having an ability to learn something - and a lot more with school being the least of their worries, to the point that it bears very little importance for them.

There is no money available. The parents in the district taxed themselves at a rate higher than the surrounding communities, but property values were so low that it raised very little money. They are currently under state control because the failed to get a passing grade on the state report cards, and have been for more than a decade.

[albacore]

31. "There is no money available." Don't I know that! American priorities are SO screwed. nt

[Hoyt]

10. Kind of like the old SAT where yo got points for knowing your name.

Not sure how I feel about OP’s issue. Essentially, 50% becomes a zero. But if there are two tests and for some reason you don’t turn one in or blow it, one can still pass with a good score on the other test.

[taxi]

13. Unfair?

Three students
1 - I got a 50
2 - I got a 0
3 - I got an F

Recruiter: it's obvious, #3 is the best prospect.

[lapucelle]

14. Are the kids remote on in school for classes?

Access to technology is an equity in education issue that is affecting many school districts this year.

Not everyone has high-speed, broadband access, and in some households everyone in the family shares one computer.

[msongs]

16. gives teachers a good reason to slack off if kids don't actually have to learn enuff to

pass the simplest tests

[Ms. Toad]

22. That's pretty offensive.

If people who purportedly value education believe a scheme like this will give teachers a reason to slack off, no wonder teachers are so poorly paid - and valued less. No wonder we have a hard time attracting quality teachers.

I gave it 11 years. Attitudes like this are part of the reason I burned out and had to call it quits. 80+ hours a week, working to help students, many of whom resented going to school, rewarded for creating a class that actually taught meaningful skills with more of the same class (among the most difficult to teach) and then I hear crap like this - and observations that teachers are overpaid because they get the summer off, and those who can do; those who can't teach, etc., etc., etc.

[zipplewrath]

18. Wrong answer to the problem

A student performing that poorly isn't suffering from poor motivation. There is some other problem that needs addressing. They could be in the wrong class, or not have performed well in the necessary prerequisites. There could be underlying health, or mental health issues. There could be social issues, particularly at home. But it needs to get addressed well before there have been so many "zeros" that they can never "catch up".

[pinkstarburst]

23. Former teacher here

We had this policy in my school district.

(And BTW, everyone hit the roof when it was instituted, for the same reasons you stated.)

I get your arguments. Yes, we need to teach kids to turn things in. Yes, we need to hold kids accountable. No, there will never be a perfect world where we can save every child and life will be fair.

Here's why I was eventually okay with the 50 as the lowest grade teachers could assign as a 6-week grade average rule:

-Let's say you fail the first six weeks. Let's say you turn nothing in, or close to nothing in and get a zero. Which, and I hate to trash some of my colleagues, but there are quite a few teachers who LOVE to enter absolutely no grades until the 3 week mark (then enter half the six weeks), and then the 6 week mark, so even if you are a parent who is trying like hell to stay on top of your kid, and are checking their grades online every night, you can get blindsided and discover that SURPRISE! they're making a zero in 7th grade math and they've turned nothing in because rather than enter a grade every 2-3 days, Mr. Jones likes to wait until the last day to enter every grade for the six weeks.

Now imagine being a low-income single parent of 3 kids working 3 minimum wage jobs to try to keep a roof over your kids heads and imagine how much harder that looks trying to check all 8 classes.

So... your kid fails the first 6 weeks. If they fail with a ZERO, mathematically, there is no possible way for them to pass the semester. 0+100+100 / 3 = 66. If you make the lowest they can earn a 50, that still sucks. The sort of kid who earns a 50, mind you, is not the sort who is likely to earn 100's the next time around and be cheating your honor's student out of that valedictorian spot, but IF they turn it around, they CAN still pass the semester.

And the last thing we need is a bunch of (mostly lower SES kids) giving up at the very start of the school year when they already have so much against them.

Also, think of how many terrible events and traumas can occur and throw a kid off for a six weeks grading period. Your home catching on fire. A relative molesting you. You or a loved one get seriously ill. Someone in your family is shot and killed. Someone breaks into your home. A mental health event. These sorts of traumas happen to our kids ALL THE TIME. Having a built-in cushion so that you can have a bad grading period without it taking out the whole year is the way to go. Trust me, when we lose those kids and they give up hope, it's infinitely worse.

[kcr]

28. This is the correct answer

It surprises me how many teachers don't turn in the grades till the last minute. It makes it hard to keep on top of things, and kind of defeats the whole purpose of having everything online where parents can monitor progress. It's aggravating. I can absolutely see this happening.

[dsc]

24. I have a problem with this for all assignments

but for the total grade. I was graded under a system of A = 4, B = 3, C = 2, D = 1 and F = 0. We had 4 quarters and a final exam with the quarters counting 2x and the final 1x. So if a student did nothing for the first two quarters, then got a D for the 3rd and 4th quarter with a D on the final they would have a D. 0 + 0 + 2 + 2 + 1 = 5 divide by 9 and you get 0.56 which rounds to 1 or a D. That same student would get a 100 + 100 + 120 + 120 + 60 = 500/9 = 56 which is an F.

That said, doing this assignment by assignment become problematic. First, it would be an immense amount of work to enter the grades after the fact. Second, letting students be able to pass a class with a C by doing half the assignments could be an issue and become much more of a thing under a system where this was done grade by grade.

[Demsrule86]

25. a 50 is failing but a really bad grade in the first semester can destroy the entire year so I

personally am for it. I think it is a reasonable idea...every time a kid is held back or gets behind in course work, there likelihood of quitting school increases...I am talking about older kids...high school.

[mcar]

27. It's a difficult issue

SO has been a teacher for 40 years and this issue has been addressed, formally and informally, several times during his career.

As a former middle school teacher (now high school), his main argument was that you didn't want 16 YOs in middle school.

[Desert grandma]

29. The High School my grandchildren attend has developed a unique way of handling this.

They attend a charter high school of about 300 students here in our very urban city. The school has a team of dedicated teachers that have developed a student centered approach. This school is focused on Technology and Digital Arts. At the beginning on the shutdown they gave students a choice to complete their classes in a totally online program developed by the State Board of Education, with teachers they would not know and where students take one class at a time. They cannot enroll in another until they pass the one they are taking. They accumulate credits at their own pace. The other choice was to use a platform called Discus (a gaming platform adapted by the teachers) to attend each of their classes with the teachers from the school. Each teacher teaches the class as if they were in their classroom. Students can participate, ask questions, etc. They can break out into groups to work on projects. Since this is a high school, credits are earned for each class. Rather than giving students credit for work they did not or would not do, the students receive an Incomplete for the class. This allows them to take it again without damaging their GPA. At the same time, they do not get credit if they do not attend class and do the work. The staff recognized that attending classes totally online posed obstacles for many students and they wanted to compensate for that. This school has very small classes and students and teachers build relationships with one another. My granddaughters are seniors, and have been accepted into 2 Universities in state, and 1 out of state. My grandson, on the other hand, began the school year as a Junior, and chose the totally online class program with teachers he did not know. He rapidly went through each online class needed for graduation and is graduating this May as well, having completed all of the credits necessary for graduation. He will attend the same college out of state as his cousins.

My life experience tells me that the most important attribute needed for success is motivation, along with persistence. Some call it "grit.". I have 3 adult daughters who were highly motivated but did not test well. They each have Masters degrees. My son, who tested the highest on the ACT and SAT has no degree. He dropped out of college after his freshman year, and works in a hospital in Admin. He could take college classes free of charge there and says he is planning on it, but we (his dad and I) are not holding our breath.