Here's what I've learned about women and sexual harassment from the DU community...

[brooklynite]

(All of these comments have been made by someone here regarding Governor Cuomo)

If a woman doesn’t complain about inappropriate behavior immediately, should we really trust her?

What’s wrong with some harmless flirting?

Even a senior Democratic aide is open to a bribe from the GOP.

Gov Cuomo is doing such a great job, we really shouldn’t focus on his personal behavior.

- + - + - + - + -

Personally, I’d be embarrassed to say anything.like this, but that’s just me…

[Elessar Zappa]

1. Well, I've made no disparaging comments

about the women nor will I. I’m keeping an open mind until an investigation has been concluded.

[Texasgal]

2. Hard to say much when you get

pounced on for daring to worry/compassionate about the victims.

It sucks.

[bottomofthehill]

3. It's pretty simple

If you are in a supervisory role, dating is off limits. Male-Female, Female-Male, Male-Male, Female-Female, if you are the boss or in a supervisory role, the answer is simple, Don’t do it.
It’s not hard, there is never a level playing field in that type of relationship so don’t start.

It’s not hard to understand, it’s wrong

[brewens]

11. My rule is no dating women from work period. At the Red Cross I was a blood bank tech, but worked

closely with the collections team. One of the women asked if I was looking and had someone in mind to set me up with. I said not interested, and I don't even want to know who. I told her that was off limits. There were a couple of what would otherwise be good prospects too. I never did know who she had in mind.

[mitch96]

12. " set me up with. I said not interested".. I got the same question and I had the same answer.

The women at work thought I was weird.. Been there, done that no thank you...
m

[bottomofthehill]

18. I can't go that far, I have been happily married to a coworker for over 25 years.

It was a part time job for both of us, the side money was helpful but the lifelong relationship remains invaluable.

[bottomofthehill]

19. We met working, neither of us has the side job now.

Just each other. Young romance in our 20’s

[Bettie]

26. Over 30 years for me

I worked in the front office, he was a technician in back of the Sears service center. Yeah, I got my husband at Sears. LOL.

[Sur Zobra]

39. And I bet he has

been just as reliable as Craftsmen tools—they last forever

[Bettie]

42. Actually, yes he has

though, he does wonder if he should have purchased the maintenance agreement on me! LOL.

He is the person that I would rather spend time with than anyone else in the world, 95% of the time.

[Sur Zobra]

51. Fantastic!

Good for you guys

[treestar]

46. I have a cousin who met his wife at work

Still happily married and kids years later. They were on equal terms there, though.

[Ms. Toad]

4. Thank you.

I'll add a couple (paraphrased):

Since Trump got to stay, then sexual harassment and rape are not a reason to remove a Democrat from office.

Women who are sexually harassed by Democratic employers should not fear retaliation for reporting the harassment (because, of course, Democrats wouldn't engage in retaliation).

[brooklynite]

5. I thought about the first one after I posted this...

Thanks for adding

[questionseverything]

8. Wooo I haven't been on, who got raped?

[50 Shades Of Blue]

6. Yup. If it's not OKIYAR it shouldn't be OKIYAD either.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

7. Some people's standards are skewed by party lines.

[Mike Nelson]

9. I think...

"If a woman doesn’t complain about inappropriate behavior immediately, should we really trust her?"
-- I think many women (and men) would hold off on saying anything. You are afraid and embarrassed.

"What’s wrong with some harmless flirting?"
-- Nothing. I wouldn't describe what I've read as harmless flirting.

"Even a senior Democratic aide is open to a bribe from the GOP."
-- Possible, but it sounds like unfair speculation.

"Gov Cuomo is doing such a great job, we really shouldn’t focus on his personal behavior."
-- That's what he thinks.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

10. +1. N/t

[LanternWaste]

13. I've learned a lot in the HoF forum over the years.

But I try to stay away (not always successfully) from advertising that education when it's at the expense of other posters, as it would be little more than self-serving, self-righteous sanctimony. But that's just me.

[dsc]

14. I have been consistent throughout

this is what investigations are for. The people of the state of NY elected Cuomo, the people of NY deserve to have Cuomo barring him having done, and been proved to have done, something bad enough that he is unfit to serve.

Now what he is alleged to have done falls into four categories

1) He was a bad boss who yelled at his underlings and called them names. I think we can agree that isn't a reason to say to NY, sorry but you can't have the person you overwhelmingly chose to be your governor.

2) He was highly inappropriate with underlings but refrained from touching them. Here we need an investigation. I know many wish to compare this to a CEO, but if a board fires a CEO, the board gets to replace him or her. If Cuomo resigns, the people of NY, who chose him, get no say at all in who replaces him. They are stuck with the Lt Gov for 2 years. To me that means there should be a very high bar to say to NY, you don't get to have the governor you chose. At the very least, an investigation should be part of that bar.

3) He twice physically touched women who were not in his employ when he did so (one never was, the other had been). Again, this is what we have investigations for. see point 2

4) He may have lied about nursing home deaths to facilitate a book deal and avoid a federal investigation. See points 2 and 3.

I have consistently said, and still am saying, that the bar should be very high before we tell the people of a jurisdiction, you don't get to have who you chose. Now, a clear case where I think a person needs to go is the AG of South Dakota. It is quite clear he ran over a person (that is literally a fact), left the scene (again, this is a fact), lied about his knowledge of what he hit (he disputes this but the interviews with police and the evidence are damning that he did, in fact, now what he hit). Barring this being a mongo frame up he needs to go. Now, I don't think it literally takes killing people to make you unfit. I think clear proof of 4 means Cuomo needs to go. In terms of 3, I think what he did at the wedding, even with her telling isn't enough in my mind. The hotel room may or may not be depending on how the facts shake out. It should be noted he is abjectly denying the account. In terms of 2, again the investigation needs to show what happened here. Even he says he was not appropriate. But I would need to see just what happened here.

Overturning elections should be hard. It should take investigations and proof, not allegations and calls to resign. The behavior should either be a crime or be so awful that it makes the holder unfit.

[MyOwnPeace]

15. I've thought a lot about this......

I'm 10 years older than the governor so I've 'seen' more and went through the same 'social' changes that he has - plus some. I was brought up in a home with a Father that would have made Archie Bunker look like a 'flamin' liberal!' I remember my parents telling me that JFK should not be elected because 'the Pope would run the country.'
With that as my background - I voted for Nixon in 1968 (am I banned from DU now?). In my defense, I DID vote for McGovern in 1972 and kept my campaign pin that I proudly wore in 1974 when Nixon resigned (it had a banner with the pin that said: I TOLD YOU SO!)

I was a teacher for 24 years and a principal for 11 more. I was married twice, divorced from one and remarried and had 2 children with my second wife. I truly believe I became a better husband the second time around and a better teacher after the birth of my children.

All of that being said, things have changed and people need to change with the times. Being a 'rogue' or 'playboy' in the 70's was QUITE different than what had happened after that. The failure to not realize that would leave one open to questions regarding temperament or actions/behavior in more recent times. The realization of those actions would/should have been recognized by both the person doing them and the people that were victims of them.

For the person 'doing wrong' - either 'didn't get the memo - "it was OK before - what's the problem?" or "Hey, I'm in charge here, what's the problem - boys are gonna' be boys, right?"

Going from 'teacher' to 'principal' is a big change. The expectations of behavior do indeed change. If you fail to understand and learn that - there will be problems. To multiply that impact by whatever number you chose when you become one of 50 governors in the United States has to come with even more challenges.

With all of that - I'm not sure if Andrew 'did not get the memo' or just went with the 'boys-will-be-boys' thing. With so many people now stepping forward with issues, there certainly seems to have been a pattern of questionable or inappropriate behavior here.

Now what?

Can there be corrective measures taken? Should he be taken out of any leadership position? Can he be 'reformed?'

Unfortunately, we have a shaky trail of past actions. Senator Franken was pushed out of office for certain claims of 'inappropriate' behavior - without any actual 'investigation' or hearings to determine necessary actions to take regarding the charges.
On the other hand, we elected as president a person who has claims of far more inappropriate behavior, charges being brought by over 20 different people.

I can only hope that there is fair and equitable way to resolve this. The 'fairness' is deserved by both those making charges/claims AND the Governor.

Strange times indeed......

[brooklynite]

16. There's a chasm of difference between...

“I did something wrong and I’m sorry” (which Gov. Cuomo has not said)

“I don’t think I did anything wrong, but if I offended anyone I’m sorry (which Gov. Cuomo has said)

[MyOwnPeace]

20. Very well said.....

it all depends on any person realizing they did something wrong - and sometimes that just doesn't happen....

[Budi]

17. Tara Reade. That's what I learned here

That smear against Biden ran like wildfire on all media fronts. And here as well.
Trust her, they demanded.
Until she was proven a liar & untrustable.

Then, those who ran the story 24/7 all went completely silent & moved onto the next story.

That's what I learned about women & sexual harassment in an upcoming election.

I'll wait for the investigation.

As investigator, I would be asking to see the texts & phone mssgs from the claimants, for about 3 months prior to the seemingly coordinated media outing.

Thanks to those who shoved the bogus Tara Reade gotcha story in everyone's face 24/7, I'm believing not even half of the claims against Cuomo.

Prove you are legit. Cuz ya know, Tara Reade was the smear that was spose to damage Biden, too.
That story landed like a thud & her backers never mentioned her name again.

I'll wait.
Thanks for asking ~

[Kaleva]

21. What is your opinion on the accusations against Trump?

Did you admonish people here for jumping to conclusions when the stories first broke or did you believe them?

[Budi]

34. Trump's history was no secret. This is nowhere on the scale of rapist & Epstien pal, Trump.

Trump made no secret of his abuses. He, in fact bragged about it, laughed & wore it like a measure of priviledged masculinity.

[Kaleva]

35. So you believed the accusations and didn't admonish anyone here.

"Two of the allegations (by Ivana Trump and Jill Harth) became public before Trump's candidacy for president, but the rest arose after a 2005 audio recording was leaked during the 2016 presidential campaign."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_sexual_misconduct_allegations

Ivana trump and Jill Harth had years earlier dropped their claims of rape and sexual harassment. We didn't hear about the othesr until 2016 during the presidential campaign. So I don't know where you got your info that Trump's history was no secret unless you are referring to 2016 and later.

[Budi]

38. Stop defending trump. His history of using & abusing women is..

..known & documented for years .

Epstein just didn't happen by chance one time.

Wiki is your source?
That's it?

Stop defending, & minimizing Trump to validate the kinda, sorta, maybe, accusations of Cuomo's accusors.

[LizBeth]

53. I did not hear a lot of trust her, but listen to here and ran out of steam in days because of easy

to see lies and inconsistencies and no other woman had ever said that extent even though Biden was already called on this issue. It had really allowed it all to be put to bed. But, I never heard anyone say automatically trust.

[leftyladyfrommo]

22. It bothers me that people love to pile on when a

famous person is found to be lacking or even just presumed to be lacking.

[Marrah_Goodman]

23. For some people it's party above all

I think if there is an issue with Cuomo it should be looked into. If there is something there, he should resign. How can we ever demand the republicans clean house if we are not willing to do the same?

[uponit7771]

24. BULLSHIT!! This is unfair bashing of DU by generalizing a relatively few post to DU as a whole. Why

Last edited Mon Mar 8, 2021, 12:47 PM - Edit history (1)

... not post a poll vs generalizing negatively then we can work from facts vs "some posters said"?

[hlthe2b]

30. +++

[Ms. Toad]

62. Because it really doesn't matter to those impacted by sexual harassment,

abuse, or rape whether it is a few or a few dozen.

The fact that the posts are made and remain - and are given kudos by others (whether the majority or the minority) is damaging. They should be roundly condemned, not supported or ignored.

Would you make the same comment if posters made racially disparaging remarks, those posts remained visible, and were cheered by other posters? Would it really matter that it is only a minority of indviduals who engaged in racially disparging remarks?

[uponit7771]

72. Bashing DU matters to TOS and me, start a poll then work off facts before neg generalizing

[Ms. Toad]

73. Reciting the hurtful things DU members have actually said is not bashing. N/t.

[uponit7771]

75. We agree, but negatively generalizing without the facts is unfair bashing

[Bettie]

25. So, I'm assuming you were entirely onboard with jettisoning

Biden when Tara Reade came out with her accusations?

Let the investigation continue. Just as it did with Biden.

I seem to recall most people who are truly exercised about Cuomo saying from day 1 that Reade was a liar.

As it stands now, Cuomo doesn't appear to have committed a crime. If he's a smart man, he will change his behavior.

[Lancero]

27. Their is a difference between waiting for a investigation, and dismissing the claims out of hand.

That is the main reason that many people here are disgusted with some DUers behavior. They choose to dismiss the claims entirely out of hand, and asspull excuses that would be right at home in a MRA playbook.

And it's not just sexism that is being dismissed out of hand. Racism is the topic du jour given Meghan Markle's recent interview, and quite a few would rather her just shut up because, well, what does someone as rich as she know about living with racism?

[Bettie]

29. I don't dismiss out of hand

but I do look carefully at what the right wing has to gain and always suspect ratfucking.

[Kaleva]

32. I don't see what the RW has to gain as Lt. Gov Kathy Hochul looks to be a highly qualified

to assume the role as governor if needed.

[Bettie]

43. A hope that she can be defeated by a Republican

who will pardon that orange man and his odious spawn for state crimes.

[Kaleva]

44. Maybe but IMHO I think that'd be a long shot for an R to win as governor.

[Bettie]

45. Maybe, I don't live in NY

But, I also am always wondering what the right wing has to gain.

I do think Al Franken was railroaded at a time when he was an important and loud voice.

I don't think Katie Hill should have resigned.

I didn't think that Biden should have given in to Tara Reade (is that the right spelling) either.

Their guys start insurrections and sit pretty in the senate knowing they will be reelected, ours have human failings or lives and they have to go...immediately.

The double standard annoys me.

[Maru Kitteh]

54. As of today there's like 5 "Tara Reades" and AFAIK, they're all Dems

so . . . . . .


How many women coming forward to support each other are enough for you to support women?

[Bettie]

59. How many said he raped them? Reade said she was raped. Assaulted.

Is he an asshole? A pig? Probably.

Unfortunately for those equating it with being a rapist, being an asshole is not a crime.

Equating harassment with assault offends me.

I've been harassed in my life and I've been assaulted.

They are very different things. Harassment is an annoyance. I don't get why some people now believe that it is the same as rape. I just don't.

[Maru Kitteh]

63. Why would you belittle harassment of women? Harassment is an annoyance?

REALLY?

No wonder women are still so very far behind. We have, even here, women telling other women harassment is a mere annoyance.

I don't know why you're so focused on Reade, but you don't get to bring her up as a reference point and then spit at everyone else for answering based on what you yourself brought up.

Maybe you need Cuomo to rape a few women before you show concern for those he's pretty obviously abused.

Would you so easily give a pass to Ted Cruz? McTurtle? Yeah, no. You wouldn't. Nobody on this forum would. Nobody should.

[Bettie]

66. You been assaulted? Raped?

There. Is. A. Difference.

But hey, if you think that they are the exact same thing...well, you are lucky not to know the difference.

And yes, compared to being assaulted or raped, someone touching your face and making you uncomfortable is an annoyance.

[Humanist_Activist]

74. No one is arguing it's the same thing.

Stop setting up such strawmen to belittle sexual harassment. All you are doing is upholding misogyny.

[radius777]

69. +1. There were multiple hollow allegations against Biden,

which culminated in the Tara Reade stuff. This takedown of Cuomo just feels the same - hollow, cynical and political. They couldn't get him on the nursing home stuff so they went in for plan B.

[Bettie]

71. And no one is saying Cuomo is a good guy or even

a good boss.

Just that he hasn't committed a crime.

He should definitely change his behavior toward, well everyone, because it sounds like he's a rude, crude guy.

[MineralMan]

28. There were far different things posted as well on DU during the same period.

If the things you mentioned were what you have learned from DU, then I recommend that you read more thoroughly.

[hlthe2b]

31. +++

[Pongo]

37. I think the point is that one wouldn't expect to see statements of that type here. I sure didn't.

I was really taken aback by some of what I read.

[MineralMan]

40. I am never surprised at what individual DUers post here.

In any thread, I look at what everyone posts if I'm trying to get a feeling for what DU thinks. Individual posts are what they are - individual opinions on a single topic. I do not expect uniformity on DU on topics that are controversial.

[treestar]

48. Complete uniformity of opinion is for Republicans

[Pongo]

49. So is dismissing harassment allegations as nothing-burgers.

[treestar]

55. But maybe they think it is not severe enough

to be called harassment. It's unfair to put a label on something and if someone disagrees with the label, saying they are supporting something of that label - akin to Republicans calling us Communists. But we aren't, we don't agree that a social safety net is communism.

[Pongo]

56. I'm going to go out on a limb here and bet that NY State has training and definition of that term.

Every company I’ve worked for does. I see where you’re obviously coming from. Perhaps you can tell me what level of harassment would work for you from an older and powerful boss?

[treestar]

57. If he asked me out and I said no

and that was it, it wouldn't be worth getting bothered over.

If he kept it up or got nasty, I'd go to human resources.

If I got fired, I'd get a lawyer for wrongful termination.

[Pongo]

65. You do know what he said to her, right? The interview she gave is very easy to find.

Asking a subordinate if she would sleep with an older man is creepy as hell, telling her she was old enough for him is creepy as hell, asking her to find him a girlfriend is creepy as hell. It’s disgusting and it doesn’t belong in the workplace. It’s also against most workplace rules.

[treestar]

76. If it's against the workplace rules

then go to human resources or wherever and say something. That's what we've come up with all that for.

And it's not "creepy" to everyone; it depends on how well they know each other. It's weird if he did not know her that well, but we don't know about that.

We used to socialize after work and some of that would have been considered funny. Not even meant seriously. It all depends. There should be more looked into than just jumping to conclusions.

[Treefrog]

77. She DID go to HR. She was then transferred. Have you read the details at all?

She complained immediately.

[treestar]

78. Then the problem was solved

and he could have learned from it.

[Treefrog]

79. Uh, ok.

The 63 year old governor of a major US state hadn’t learned that already? Things that make you go hmm.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. The strangest thing I read

The strangest thing I read here was the post that strongly suggested all men want is sex and all women want is babies.

[Pongo]

36. Thank you. Also, 'he was only approaching single women, so where's the harm?"

And I read in disbelief, along with the comments you list, that one female duer was happy to post more than once that she’d have loved it if the governor had done the same to her.

[Vinca]

41. My only real complaint is that women who are faced with a situation that involves words -

sexual harassment - shouldn't be meek. Cuomo would have shut his pie hole forever and ever and ever if the one woman had told him that no, she wasn't interested in sleeping with older men because it would be like fucking her dad. Would she have gotten fired? For what? Is Cuomo going to complain she said she doesn't want to sleep with him because he reminds her of her dad? I don't think so. Sexual harassment and sexual assault are 2 very different things and shouldn't be treated the same. Biden, for example, was accused at one point during the campaign of digitally raping a woman. People didn't take that accusation seriously enough to warrant a turn of the head. I'm sorry but the days - now weeks - long coverage of Cuomo's serial piggishness are getting old considering we had someone in the Oval Office who had many multiple accusations of sexual assault (including rape) and the media pretty much said nothing. I'm no fan of Cuomo, but this isn't the end of life as we know it. It's a guy who thinks he's God's gift to women being a pig. Put him in his place. And put the sexual assaulters behind bars. Do the investigation and don't vote for him next time if he runs for office. If he did something illegal, prosecute him. I doubt that will be the case. Being a serial pig isn't a crime.

[Bettie]

60. Thanks for this post

I do not understand how suddenly harassment, verbal is equal to assault (physical).

[treestar]

47. We've also learned that

"sexual harassment" is a label that can be given to mere unwanted advances. We have a right to say no to a date, of course. But to demand that they read our minds and not ask if we want to say no - that's not going to work. It's not harassment to make an advance, only to keep it up if refused, and in an unpleasant way.

I think we should stand up and complain immediately, or he gets away with it. We don't have to be open to that one. It's unfair to make accusations years later, when it is harder for the accused to defend themselves. And when it is politically expedient. We should encourage speaking right up.

[Pongo]

50. It's best not to make 'advances' to your subordinates. Big difference.

[Sympthsical]

52. Happy Women's Day!

I've stayed out of those threads. They're gross. Women should be heard. Unless it's a Democratic politician we like. Then everything is entirely suspect, and it doesn't really matter if what she said happened happened, because it really wasn't that bad anyway!

I honestly think Cuomo should resign over the nursing home stuff. People keep framing it as, "Oh, they just lied about the data."

That wasn't the problem. At least, not the only one.

His administration's policy put infected patients back into the nursing homes with other healthy patients over the objections of nursing home organizations.

People died because of this policy. That's why they lied about it. Why people keep ignoring that and claiming the lie is the thing is beyond me.

But yes, let's discuss how ok it was for him to be entirely creepy and inappropriate towards women and co-workers. That's the real story.

[MichMan]

58. And nursing homes were prohibited from testing patients returning from hospitalization for Covid

[BannonsLiver]

61. I'd be embarrassed to gloat about money and personal wealth

But people do it regularly. There’s plenty of embarrassing things, and lack of self awareness to go around, frankly.

[Dorian Gray]

64. Hard agree

[EX500rider]

67. yeah I noticed nobody had these issues with Kavanaugh's accusers coming out late..

....typical conformational bias IMO.

[Blasphemer]

68. Yes, it's been pretty depressing but not surprising

I was never one who bought into the Al Franken martyrdom precisely because it was very clear that many people's opinions would have shifted if it was a GOP senator. It'll be interesting to see how far we are willing to go with our ideology-based biases.

[Raine]

70. Exactly

and it's pretty disgusting.

[BradAllison]

80. What hand picked person is your machine backing for next guv.

Just spill it already.