This message was self-deleted by its author

[Jeebo]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Jeebo) on Wed Mar 17, 2021, 10:22 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. Research finds that childhood trauma and lack of empathy are two of the most reliable predictors of

sexual assault by men. Not inherent level of horniness. The science shows it's about power.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. It's difficult to tell whether legalizing sex work would reduce rapes.

In some places where sex work is decriminalized, reported sexual assaults sometimes go down. On the other hand, sex workers don't always report assaults against themselves, as even under decriminalization, safety is not guaranteed from either clients or the police.

[Bettie]

3. Here is why your argument doesn't work:

You said:

How often does it happen that some guy thinks, "Here she is. If I just go ahead and take what I want, I won't have to be horny and suffering and miserable any more." ?


Isn't it about that man's power to go ahead and take what he wants? It is about his physical ability to forcibly remove a woman's clothing and penetrate her body.

Is that "sex" or is it "power".

It certainly is entitlement. "I'm horny, so I think I'm going to force that woman over there to fix that for me."

[JI7]

10. Yes, and that's what an incel is. They feel they are entitled

and see themselves as victims if rejected. and respond in violent ways.

[Jeebo]

25. You have shown me that power is one motivator of rape.

And I don't disagree with that claim.

But you have not shown me that sex is not also a secondary, or primary, motivator of rape.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

-- Ron

[Bettie]

35. So women who are victims of rape should just be happy

that the guy who raped them got his orgasm? Is that the point? That forcible rape is really just sex and women should just sit back and let it happen, so that some dude doesn't have blue balls?

It being "just about sex" is making excuses. "Oh, he was just horny!" "She should have put out."

[hlthe2b]

38. Apparently the woman should feel SORRY for the rapist because he was just so 'horny."

This thread should be locked.

[Bettie]

43. Right?

Apparently, at six, I was so alluring that the man who raped me was just "horny" and that's the reason it kept up until I was able to leave home.

Sounds like an excuse. "oh, it's about sex". No, it really isn't.

Good to see a few people are pushing back. Not as many as I'd have hoped, but some.

[hlthe2b]

45. I am proud of those like you who are speaking out from their own experience.

Very much so.

[Jeebo]

39. No, of course that's not what I'm saying.

I'm just talking about what motivates that brutal act. Where in any of my comments is there any suggestion that I think it's okay?

I knew when I posted that original post that started this thread that somebody would read something like that into my words. Go back and re-read my comments and show me where I have stated or suggested any such thing.

I didn't claim that it's "just about sex" either. I said that it's not accurate to claim that it's "just about power" or to exclude sexual desire as a motivator.

-- Ron

[Mossfern]

49. I don't know about that

my rapist deliberated for more than an hour whether to kill me or not- after the fact. It's only because the friends that he called while holding a knife to my back while sitting on me didn't arrive to "join the party," that saved my life I find this particularly disturbing.

Lucky for you that I've already been triggered today so this response is rather mild.

[LiberalLoner]

68. Jesus. I'm so sorry.

[hlthe2b]

73. Oh, Mossfern...

I am so very sorry that happened to you. You are clearly a strong person and I am very appreciative of your speaking out.

[hlthe2b]

4. This is not a new premise. Law enforcement specializing in sexual assault have maintained

this (rape is about power, not sex) for years and it is supported by psychological studies.

[Jeebo]

27. Do those studies absolutely exclude sex as another motivator of rape?

Those two motivators, power and sex, are not mutually exclusive.

Unless those studies prove power and also exclude sex as a possible secondary or primary motivator of rape, they do not disprove my premise.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

28. I believe a signficant proportion never even complete the sex act or maintain an erection and thus

resort to other forms of sexual violence or mechanical penetration.

I am going to believe that you are sincerely confused or uninformed, but frankly, it is incensing to have you equate rape to sexual desire. Perhaps you should talk to some of the women in your life to get some perspective AND do some reading. A LOT of reading from valid sources (not Reddit forums or other similar).

[Jeebo]

36. I do not "equate rape to sexual desire"

My claim is that it is downright silly to claim that sexual desire is never a motivating factor in rape. It obviously is, and it is preposterous to claim that it isn't.

I will repeat my original premise: How can anybody seriously believe that sex is the ONLY thing that has value to human beings that NOBODY ever steals?

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

37. Then why does chemical castration fail in most cases?

I am sorry but you have crossed the line into a justification or defense of rape based on uncontrolled sexual urges. What next? Defend murderers based on that desperate obsession with watching the life drain out of others?

I'm done with you and DISGUSTED>

[Jeebo]

41. I am not claiming any such thing.

I am not attempting to justify rape or excuse it. I am pushing back against the claim that a desire to exert power over women is the ONLY reason anybody ever commits it. Please do not read things into my words that are not there.

I am going to repeat my premise: Sex is not the only thing that has value to humans that nobody ever steals. People who claim that power is the SOLE motivator of rape seem to be claiming that it is the only thing that nobody ever steals.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

51. Rape is not stolen sex, you say? REALLY? Good gawd.

[Jeebo]

61. That is the exact opposite of what I said.

Go back and read my words again.

The only reason I haven't locked this thread by deleting my original post is that I haven't yet read all the responses. I'm not sure if deleting the original post will make it impossible for me to read all the responses.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

64. No. It has no effect on reading responses. If you are ashamed as you SHOULD be, then

I would hope you would self-delete.

This thread has become a horrible picture of a minority on DU.

Today 172 Republicans voted AGAINST the Violence Against Women Act in the House. Sadly, it seems like there may be some that would defend their vote as well, given some of the responses on this thread. I am so ashamed of some here.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215238518

[Jeebo]

67. If I were in the Senate, I would be a Democrat.

And I would vote FOR the Violence Against Women Act.

And it is clear to me that you do not understand my original premise and are not trying to. Or are trying not to.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

69. I understand fully that you are trying to normalize and thus defend rape

I tried to give you benefit-of-the doubt but your failure to acknowledge what you are doing here and the trauma your insensitivity is causing to rape/assault/molestation victims--including several on this thread-- has removed all doubt about your intent. You neither apologize nor even acknowledge them because it is all about providing an alternate explanation for rape, other than a need to exert power over another, whether through physical violence, coercion or drugs.

If it were merely a need for sexual gratification, masturbation would provide that.

[MoonchildCA]

71. No offense, but...

Your premise is nonsense.
You are equating sex to a tangible item. It is not a tangible item. It is an act.

There are plenty of “acts” that have value that no one ever steals. They are not capable of being stolen. Sex is not a thing to be stolen, and rape is not stealing something from someone. It is an act of violence.

[demmiblue]

5. ...

"Rape is about power, not about sex." That's what a caller to Thom Hartmann's show said this afternoon. One of the topics on the show had been yesterday's Asian massage parlor shootings in Atlanta and incels in general, because the alleged shooter apparently is an incel.

"Rape is about power, not about sex." I'm going to say something about that now that I'm sure is going to start a lively discussion. Shucks, I'm sure I'm going to get flamed over it, but this is something that has been bouncing around inside my skull for decades and I've been keeping it to myself. Now, for the first time ever, I'm going to get it off my chest. If I do get flamed so badly that I just can't take it, I'll delete my original post and that will lock this thread. If that happens, that's why.

"Rape is about power, not about sex." I am going to argue with that statement. If the statement were, "Rape is often about power, only sometimes about sex.", I would not argue with it. But to claim that rape is ALWAYS about power and NEVER about sex is to claim that sex is the ONLY thing that has value to humans that NOBODY ever steals. That is an assertion that is preposterous on its face. It would be like saying, "Stealing food is about kleptomania, not about hunger." No doubt there are kleptomaniacs who steal food who are not hungry, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that sometimes people who steal food are not kleptomaniacs, but just desperately hungry.

I am thinking about a scene in "Les Miserables" -- the 1935 film version with Fredric March and Charles Laughton, a great movie. There is a scene near the beginning of the movie when Jean Valjean (March) is telling the judge why he stole that loaf of bread. He said that he was standing there looking through that glass window at that loaf of bread only two feet away, and he thought that if he broke through that glass and took the loaf, "I wouldn't have to be hungry any more."

How often does it happen that some guy thinks, "Here she is. If I just go ahead and take what I want, I won't have to be horny and suffering and miserable any more." ?

I am sure somebody is going to think I'm trying to legitimize that kind of behavior. I am NOT, and please don't read something into my comments that isn't there, but I am recognizing the real-world inevitability of that scenario. Sex often is a powerful drive, and if there is no outlet for it, it can drive somebody nuts. Thom Hartmann said on his show this afternoon that he thinks prostitution should be legal, and I agree, and this is one reason. That's another topic that I have lots to say about, but I don't want to get off on that tangent now.

The central assertion of this post is: Rape is sometimes about power, and it's also sometimes about sex. Sex is not the only thing that has value to humans that nobody ever steals.

There it is, y'all, now flame away.

-- Ron

[Mosby]

16. I think views are changing

After Weinstein, it’s time to say no to the cliched line that rape is about power, not sex

It’s one of those slogans that are well-intentioned, and memorable, and utterly wrong: “Rape is about power, not sex.”

After Harvey Weinstein’s conviction last week on one charge of rape and one of a criminal sex act, the phrase predictably made its appearance among the op-eds and commentary. And there are very good reasons for both its existence and its persistence. Drawing a hard, sharp line between “sex” and “power” was one of the strategies that the women’s movement used in the 20th century to undermine the patriarchal narrative about rape.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/01/after-harvey-weinstein-time-to-say-no-to-line-that-rape-is-about-power-not-sex

Rape Is About Sex, And We Need To Stop Saying It's Not

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rape-is-about-sex-and-we-need-to-stop-saying-its-not_b_9866496

[hlthe2b]

29. Sexual gratification possible only through violence or force over another is truly exerting POWER

and thus it is the CONTROL and Power over another that motivates. The sexual act is merely the method.

The attempt on this thread to NORMALIZE and justify rape is disgusting, shameful, and needs to STOP.

[Jeebo]

46. I am not trying to normalize or justify rape.

I am trying to explain what motivates it. There is nothing disgusting or shameful about trying to figure out why people do the things they do. If those things are bad things, murder for example, it is appropriate to try to identify their motivating factors. The "disgusting" and "shameful" are in the acts themselves, not in the attempts to identify those motivating factors. Again, you are reading something into my words that is not there. Please do not do that.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

48. That is EXACTLY what you are doing

It has become beyond disgusting. Not to mention the rape and sexual assault victims that you may well be triggering with your insensitivity.

Why, exactly is it so important to you that you find a means to diminish the crime of rape? Why?

[Jeebo]

54. I'm not "trying to diminish the crime of rape" -- I'm trying to EXPLAIN it.

Again, you are reading things into my words that ARE NOT THERE.

Since you have said that this thread should be locked, I'm just about to do that myself by deleting my original post. I knew that I would get flamed and that somebody would start reading things into my words that are not there. And that is exactly what is happening.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

57. You are trying to "explain" it by normalizing it to mere sexual desire.

Why is it so important to do so? Do you know a convicted or accused rapist that you feel a need to defend?

[Jeebo]

65. Trying to identify motivating factors is not "normalizing" it.

Any more than trying to figure out why murderers commit murder is an attempt to "normalize" murder.

No, I do not know any sex offenders, nor am I trying in any way to defend their actions, nor am I one myself. I'm arguing with the claim that a desire to exert power over their victims is the ONLY motivating factor in their actions.

Again, you are reading things into my words that ARE NOT THERE.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

66. Trying desperately to find an uncontrollable motivation, does, indeed normalize the behavior and

provides a defense for those who commit such crimes. Rape is violence--even if it is achieved via coercion or drugs, rather than body mass, a knife, or gun-- because it asserts power over another rendering them helpless. It takes free will away from another. What about that can you not understand?

[Jeebo]

74. Again, you are reading something into my words that IS NOT THERE.

I'm not "trying desperately" to find an uncontrollable motivation. Nowhere have I suggested that it is "uncontrollable" -- that is just your word, I have said no such thing. I have said that it is ONE MOTIVATING FACTOR for that awful crime, never have I said or suggested that it is "uncontrollable" or that that justifies or excuses it in any way. I do not disagree with anything else you said in this post, except for your claim that I don't understand it. Please stop criticizing me for things I have not said.

And I think I'm going to delete the original post and lock this thread now.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

75. Good. I credit you for doing so.

[Aristus]

6. I won't argue a well-constructed point of view.

Except to say that sexual urges can be gratified without harming anyone. The need to have power over someone, the need to dominate, belittle, and humiliate, can rarely be gratified without actually carrying out those actions.

[LiberalLoner]

11. Exactly. A horny person can self gratify, and not rape. In my mind, as a woman who was

Raped numerous times as a child and once as a grown woman, it was about the person wanting to hurt me. Like using an especially humiliating method to beat me up.

[Aristus]

13. This must be a difficult topic for you to discuss.

I think you're showing tremendous courage in this thread.

[LiberalLoner]

14. Thank you. I really appreciate the kind words. 🌹

[Jeebo]

30. I have a bumper sticker that reads "Mean People Suck"

That is one of the few things I am willing to clutter up the back of my car with. I removed the Biden/Harris bumper sticker a couple months ago because the election was over and also because I suspect it had something to do with some unpleasant traffic incidents. I don't want to be drawing the attention of those kinds of people.

Mean people really do suck. They are among the most loathsome and contemptible human beings on this planet. LiberalLoner, you have been unfortunately victimized by some really mean people. Their meanness obviously was a motivating factor in inflicting their meanness on you, but that doesn't mean it was the only motivating factor. There might have been another motivator that had to do with the method they chose for inflicting their meanness on you. Yes, they are mean people, and they really do suck.

-- Ron

[LiberalLoner]

55. Thank you. My key chain says "mean people suck." I spend my time now with very few

People. I open myself up to almost no one. My kitty cat Bobo is my best friend. Safety means more to me than almost anything else.

[hlthe2b]

32. Thank you for speaking up, LiberalLoner.

[LiberalLoner]

56. ❤️🌹

[hlthe2b]

31. ++++

[Elessar Zappa]

7. Whatever the alleged reason,

rape is a heinous crime.

[wryter2000]

8. I don't see why it has to be either/or

It can be both.

In the current case, it's about racism and misogyny. As Malcolm Nance pointed out on Stephanie Miller this morning, if he just wanted to kill Asians, he could have gone to a grocery story or nail salon. He didn't have to drive across town to a second massage parlor.

Rape is a way to hurt in a particularly humiliating way. It's not about any kind of healthy sexual drive. It's nut just horniness. It's hatred of women.

[Moostache]

9. I see your point...but I don't share it.

Rape is a violent act of theft. Contrary to your assertion, sex IS STOLEN in rape, it certainly is NOT given...

It involves sex to give it a distinction from murder or theft of property, but at its core it is theft of a woman's (or man's) agency. It objectifies the victim in service of the desires of the aggressor. It forces one to act or receive actions in opposition to their will, desire or consent.

Not all rape is the same either. Some is violently coercive (physical attack and aggressive infliction) and some is power being used as a threat to force compliance (a gun to the head, a threat to hurt others, etc.) others may simply be mental coercion (powerful people utilizing that power to force others to abandon their will and succumb to the will of the aggressor).

The sex act itself is not consistent either. Some rape would not even involve the act of intercourse - physically forced or emotionally forced.

Additionally, the lack of sex is not a condition that leads to rape...MANY millions of people are NOT having sex on an hourly basis, many of them in the prime years of reproductive health, complete with raging hormones and imbalances. Sex is an act, but it is also a pleasurable release of endorphins and excitation of highly compressed nerve endings. Sex is pleasurable and primal because of its necessity to propagate the species and spread one's genes into future generations.

Frustration, humiliation, self-loathing, misplaced angst in substitution for personal pain....all of those things can be a reason for sex to have additional emotional meaning above the biological urges. Mental health, mastery of one's impulses, empathy and social conditioning to recognize right from wrong all should play a regulating role in the behavior of a rationale, mature human adult. Rape eschews all of them in the name of forcing one's desire onto another in a show of dominance or aggression or control. It is the ugliest form of abuse short of taking a life, but is is NOT about sexual desire except in a tangential manner.

[Jeebo]

18. "Contrary to your assertion, sex IS STOLEN in rape"

I don't think you did understand my original post. That is not contrary to my assertion, it IS my assertion, that rape is the stealing of sex. And that it is preposterous to claim that sexual desire never motivates it, only a desire to wield power over the victim. I remember a prison interview with a convicted rapist years ago in which the rapist said that was why he committed his crimes. "Power over women? That's stupid. I was just crazy horny." That's what the man said, maybe not verbatim, filtered through the haze of elapsed years.

I want to repeat for emphasis here, that I am not claiming that it's not about power, but that it's not ALWAYS and SOLELY about power. SOMETIMES it's motivated just by horniness.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

34. There was an attempt to chemically castrate sex offenders in previous decades. It did not

halt their behaviors in many cases because it was the need to abuse, control, and assert violent power over another that truly motivated them. Do some reading.

[Jeebo]

50. I don't know anything about chemical castration.

So I can't address it. However, that doesn't say anything about the motivations of sex offenders who were not chemically castrated, so it does not disprove my premise. Which is that sex is not the only thing that has value to human beings that nobody ever steals.

-- Ron

[hlthe2b]

52. Obviously, there is quite a lot you are not informed about. So that makes this thread

all the more suspect, given the harm and insensitivity toward sexual assault/rape/molestation victims on this board. But, of course, if you merely want to normalize rape for whatever reason--"the guys are just horny, after all," I guess you won't care about that. There is at least one poster on this thread who indicated being sexually molested as a six-year-old. So, now, that is just "understandable horniness too?"

I am beyond disgusted.

[Mike 03]

12. You might appreciate this book:

Last edited Wed Mar 17, 2021, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

The Anatomy of Violence: The Biological Roots of Crime
by Adrian Raine (Author) Format: Kindle Edition

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009Y4I4R4/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i0

Dr. Raine's argument is basically in agreement with you and he provides a lot of explanation and evidence that is is a deeply biological, sexual behavior.

I might, somewhat agree, and I'm not even sure that most behavioral biologists, forensic psychiatrists or neuropsychiatrists would find your position all that controversial. That viewpoint that "rape is about power, not sex" was something I grew up hearing whenever the topic of rape came up--like an automatic response--and I have always wondered about its origin and it indeed left me with questions when I began to research criminal behavior and motivations in the 90s for some writing projects. It does get confusing when you are looking at the behavior of, say, sexually motivated serial killers because in a strange way it often does have to do with their relationships with their mothers, and it then does seem to circle back to being about power and (even moreso) control. But looking back at the biological roots of rape, at least according to behavioral scientists, it seems to have to do with a drive to reproduce the genes.

When we talk about a 'crime of opportunity', as you point out, it does lead to obvious questions: If it is about power and not sex, why is the perpetrator choosing to express his power sexually? It's not like there aren't dozens of other ways to express power and control. That is always why I had questions as a young person about the cliche'd response that rape is about power, not sex. It went against what I perceived to be common sense and it seemed like people were trying to avoid talking about sexual violence for what it is by tossing it in a bin with any other types of deeply interpersonal violence despite the fact those behaviors vary widely. I remember once asking someone who told me this, "Okay, but why rape?" and that person had no answer. I stopped asking and just began repeating what I was taught: "Rape is about power, not sex," but I have always wondered about it and turned to books by scientists and psychologists for deeper and more thoughtful answers.

As controversial as the issue is, it's not a hill I want to die on, but that is my two cents. I'll keep up with the latest scientific thinking on this.

One conclusion I've gradually come to is that maybe society has reached an unspoken consensus that it is important for us as to assert and believe this whether it is true or not because it serves some important function or larger purpose to culture and civilization.

[aikoaiko]

15. Rape is about power was and is still an important assertion

Historically, almost all rapes (what we would call rape today) wasn't even seen as rape. It was a sex act the victim, usually woman, who tempted/provoked and didn't stop by resiting within an inch of her life.

No one doubts that theft/robbery is about power and greed.
No one doubts that murder is about power and revenge or utility.

But for a long time and still to this day, rape is seen a sex act gone wrong.

[Treefrog]

17. Oh boy. No comment because there would be no point.

[Delarage]

19. Not to throw another variable in....

But what about women who molest boys (there seems to be more and more stories of female middle/high school teachers having sexual relationships with boys)? Or women who take advantage of drunk men? Rape is often seen as if men are always the perpretrators....

[Caliman73]

23. Gender is not a statistically relevant variable. Rape is still about power.

The reason why most people think that men are "always the perpetrators" is because in 90% of the reported rapes where the victim is female, the perpetrator is reportedly male. In 93% of the reported rapes where the victim is male, the perpetrator is male.

Of course when we use words like "always" and "never" we will usually be wrong. Thing is, when anything is 90% or more, it is significantly skewed toward one group.

Once again, women who rape, rape because of the power to do so.

[dsc]

26. I think it also has to do with the fact that when teen boys

are raped by adult women that isn't what we tend to call it or treat it like (at least until very, very recently). We used to call it getting lucky in referring to the victims.

[Caliman73]

63. True. Boys have been socialized to "score" with women.

A "hot teacher" abusing her power to sexually abuse an adolescent would have been looked at as "scoring", though there are lasting psychological effects.

They did a skit on SNL about a year or 2 ago with Pete Davidson and I forget who, but two women teachers where they were still perpetuating that idea.

[hlthe2b]

40. Power over another can be manifest by coercion and not only through violence.

You seem to think it can't be rape if the victim was not violently subdued. And in this respect, gender doesn't matter at all.

[LAS14]

20. I totally agree with your position. Thanks for writing, as we need to..

... resist black and white thinking at every turn. (Do we need a replacement term for "black and white?" )

tia
las

[Caliman73]

21. Rape is about power and that power is manifested by the forceful, unwanted, taking of sex.

I think that the idea that "rape is about power, not sex" is misunderstood. There is no doubt that rape involves sexual acts, that is in the very definition of rape. A motivator may be that the rapist feels entitled to sex, but the primary motivator is in the "taking" in the power to take what they want from the other person.

People have sex for a variety of reasons, only some of which involve a connection and "love". The difference in what motivates a rapist and what motivates the average "horny" person, is the idea of consent. Having sex, whether with your spouse, partner, or even a sex worker is about a consensual transaction. No one is "taking" something from anyone without a tacit approval and in many respects both are giving as well.

Rape turns that dynamic on its head and the focus on on the violation, the coercive "taking" and not on the sex act itself. The focus is on the POWER of one person to take that most intimate aspect of the other person and use it for their own gratification. You can argue that the rapist may be feeling horny, but the primary reason they rape rather than approach sex from any other angle, is because they feel they have the POWER and right to do so regardless of the consent of the other person.

It is about power.

[Squinch]

22. Just no.

[hlthe2b]

42. Equating power only with social dynamics is ridiculous. Race or even gender does not prevent

an individual from asserting physical power--or coercion against another.

[fishwax]

33. You don't need sex to live, so the comparison to a starving man stealing food isn't a good one

The point of saying it isn't about sex but rather about power is that rape never happens without power dynamics coming into play. Rape does happen without traditional sexual contact (i.e. rape by instrumentation) and it can happen without sexual release or satisfaction on the part of the attacker. Because the power is the essential element.

How often does it happen that some guy thinks, "Here she is. If I just go ahead and take what I want, I won't have to be horny and suffering and miserable any more." ?

That's still about power: lots of men get really turned on at some point in their lives, but they don't commit rape unless they decide to force that issue. They have to, at the least, be willing to flex some power/force. I don't think anyone ever thinks "gee I really have no desire to hurt women or exercise power over them, but what choice do I have?" The point is that in your scenario it still isn't really about sex because sex/sexual desire is not a sufficient condition (or even a necessary one) for rape. The power--the unspoken "I can force this person to give it to me"--is.

Sometimes stealing can be an exercise of power as well. There's a great scene in The Wire in which Marlo Stansfield, a local drug kingpin, loses a big hand at poker and then goes to a convenience store, where he pays for a drink and at the same time steals a lollipop, making direct eye contact with the security guard as he does so. It's a power move: he's upset that he's lost this big hand and he responds to that threat against his power by flexing on the security guard. It's theft with a show of force. Not all theft requires a show of force, because not all thefts are about power. But rape always requires some sort of force/compulsion. Because rape is about power.

[LiberalLoner]

59. +1 thank you for explaining this so well.

[romana]

44. It is about power

The power of a man to force a woman to have sex with him. If he merely wanted to have sex he could find someone willing and everyone reading this thread knows it. It's the power of forced sex with a woman who doesn't want him that is the driving factor here, not sex.

[leftyladyfrommo]

47. I think there are a bunch of reasons.

Acting out hatred of women seems to be a big one. Getting even or getting revenge because of some perceived humiliation. Some serial rapists seem to be overcome by a compulsion. Some rapists just rape. Others beat the women up. Sometimes they aren't strong enough to go beat up a man so they find a woman to beat up and humiliate. Some seem to like the hunt. Sometimes they stalk for a long time.

It can be complicated.

There are monsters out there. Women need to be careful.

[leftstreet]

53. Sigh. Rape is violence. Period

smh at all these "explanations" of what rape is... just because it involves tHe nAUgHtY pArTz

[Lars39]

58. Either scenario you describe is still about power

The perpetrators still believe they have the right (the power) to rape.

[IcyPeas]

60. "Sex often is a powerful drive, and if there is no outlet for it, it can drive somebody nuts."

This is the sentence in your post that i could question.

It can drive somebody nuts.... sounds like an excuse.

[Caliman73]

70. I agree 100%. I still remember my adolescence.

I remember the super strong libido. I remember many many things. I also remember very well, my father and mother teaching me the women are to be respected. That they are human beings, and while I may be attracted to them and feel urges, that those urges were mine to control and if they ever heard about me disrespecting women, there would be severe consequences.

The sexual impulse is very strong, which is why you need to temper it with respect for the dignity of others, and yourself.

That line sounds like, "Aww baby, you don't understand what happens if I don't get it...I can die" (Blue Balls excuse). Childish and stupid.

Sexual compulsion is a disorder, but the treatment is not to rape or blame others. The treatment us to use behavioral techniques to manage the compulsion.

[JohnnyRingo]

62. If his right hand functions, it's not about sex.

Maybe if a couple gets shit faced and the guy continues while she passes out, that's definitely rape, but probably not about asserting himself over her. It's just being a creep with no consideration

[LiberalLoner]

72. I agree that this original post should be deleted. It is more harmful than helpful.

Please delete it.

[Jeebo]

76. Okay.

Right now.

But first, one last thing: It was not my intention in beginning this post to hurt or upset anybody. I know this is a sensitive subject, but that does not negate the need to understand it and what motivates it. That is the only thing we have been disagreeing about.

-- Ron