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Given the ages of the women killed in Atlanta...
can we dispense with the "all massage parlors are fronts for prostitution" talk?
I mean 50-70 are not prime years for female prostitutes.
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Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)And not every person who works at these establishments is a masseur. They're often multi-generational family-run businesses.
So yes we should dispense with that talk (haven't actually heard that talk here), but not based on this bit of evidence.
At least one victim was also male I believe.
Claire Oh Nette
(2,636 posts)The officer knew exactly what it looked like, and he deflected because he knew what it was. He knew his spin would draw on stereotypes of asian women sex workers. He likely thought the whole trafficking innuendo would bring the Hatriots to his side.
He distracted us with nonsense.
A white guy bought a gun and killed asian women.
On purpose.
He's a murderous serial killer inspired by racism and xenophobia. Not sex. Hate. End of story.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)at a halfway house.
Shithead was living there after treatment/rehab for sex addiction. Shithead also told other dude he visited prostitutes, and when did so, he called them 'relapses'.
My guess is he's a sex offender, probably as a juvenile (hence it not being reported yet), and was ordered to treatment by the courts.
Whether or not it's the 'real motivation' I think is still unclear, but there is other evidence besides what the asshole sheriff's spokesman said wrt this dude having a sex addiction.
To be clear, I want him to fry either way.
Claire Oh Nette
(2,636 posts)He's from a Baptist preacher family.
Have a very good friend, Baptist. Married his his sweetheart at 22. Young, taught school, became an administrator, got his PhD, founded private school, moved home to California from Texas, became headmaster at another religious private k-8.
Had an affair or two. Wife (way deep into Exodus cry and child trafficking rescue and overtly religious) was friend of mine, too, so I heard from her.
He had to go through sex addiction treatment. Seemed like an exercise in semi public shaming over his affair(s) so the church community would know. They divorced anyway.
I wonder what % of sex addicts (21???) are there out of conservative religious background?
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)
JustABozoOnThisBus
(24,679 posts)Ok, maybe not "prime", but still ...
At one time, 50-70-year-olds would have been disqualified as flight attendants.
Apropos of nothing, Keith Richards is still a rocking. Slower than before, but still ...
lagomorph777
(30,613 posts)I've heard.
meadowlander
(5,130 posts)They have more melanin and thicker skin layers which means they don't show wrinkles or age spots as early.
I know a lot of Asian women who, coming from Western expectations of aging, can pass for 20-30 years younger than they actually are.
MineralMan
(151,222 posts)They were murdered. What about that do you not understand? That is the only relevant fact here. Period.
meadowlander
(5,130 posts)https://www.aarp.org/disrupt-aging/stories/ideas/info-2017/cliches-that-are-true.html
https://www.thecut.com/2017/02/the-science-behind-why-some-people-naturally-age-slower.html
https://www.thejakartapost.com/life/2016/10/03/do-asians-really-age-more-slowly.html
I'm responding a post with the assumption that because someone is old they can't be a prostitute. I appreciate that they were murdered - that's not what this thread is about.
MineralMan
(151,222 posts)They were murdered by an incel with a gun. Nothing else is relevant.
meadowlander
(5,130 posts)If you think the thread is irrelevant trash it.
MineralMan
(151,222 posts)Do you truly not understand?
How many Asian women are peers where you work?
meadowlander
(5,130 posts)I'm responding to a thread claiming that they can't be prostitutes because they are old and arguing that that isn't true.
I lived in China and worked for Chinese companies for five years and have Korean, Japanese and Pacific Islander family members by marriage and grew up where like 30% of my school classmates were Asian so lots. Not that that's relevant in the slightest to the discussion.
treestar
(82,383 posts)The issue is about whether women 50-70 might be in the sex industry. In general. No where did anyone say anything about murder being justified because of that.
Scrivener7
(59,486 posts)and often traffic middle-aged women."
Behind Illicit Massage Parlors Lie a Vast Crime Network and Modern Indentured Servitude
She was 49, a recent immigrant and deeply in debt to a loan shark back home in China when she answered an employment ad three years ago that promised thousands of dollars a month, but offered no job description. She realized too late that she had been tricked into working at a massage parlor in Flushing, Queens, where besides kneading backs, she was expected to sexually service up to a dozen men a day.
snip
The frequently middle-aged women who work in parlors with names like Orchids of Asia and Rainbow Spa are often struggling to pay off high debts to family members, loan sharks, labor traffickers and lawyers who help them file phony asylum claims. In some cases, their passports are taken and their illegal immigration status keeps them further in the shadows, with some of them rotated every 10 days to two weeks between spas operated by the same owners. Forced to pay for their own supplies and even their own condoms, many women must sleep on the same massage tables where they service customers and cook on hot plates in cramped kitchens or on back steps.
snip
In strip malls across the country, neon signs and brightly colored placards promise hot stones, acupuncture and shiatsu with photos of women or couples receiving relaxing shoulder rubs. But a traditionally Asian form of therapeutic relaxation with deep roots in big-city Chinatowns has spun off a different kind of massage parlor that has little to do with traditional remedies. It has exploded into a $3 billion-a-year sex industry that relies on pervasive secrecy, close-knit ownership rings and tens of thousands of mostly foreign women ensnared in a form of modern indentured servitude.
snip
Law enforcement officials said there were an estimated 9,000 illicit massage parlors across the country, from Orlando to Los Angeles.
This idiot using sex addiction as an excuse for his killing spree should not be used as an excuse for other morons to try to deny the devastation of human trafficking that often goes on in massage parlors.
MineralMan
(151,222 posts).
Midnight Writer
(25,397 posts)Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)the whole 'alleged' things, personally.
But they won't cause the lawyers won't let them.
usedtobedemgurl
(2,046 posts)I do not care who knows I have sex for money. What I do care about is when I sit across the table from a 40 something guy. He talks about a mutual friend working at the Bunny Ranch. He says she better get it in while young, because she won’t be able to do it when she is older. I asked why not. He said, “Well, the whole age thing. You can only do it when you are young!” Seriously? Get the fuck outta’ here.
I attract many men and I am in the age range of what you provided. Please stop with age. Women are stopped enough by gender. Everyday I must fight the straits society tries to tie me down with!
Response to usedtobedemgurl (Reply #10)
Hugh_Lebowski This message was self-deleted by its author.
RockRaven
(19,328 posts)
The 6 sex workers charged in the Orchids of Asia Day Spa case (the set of arrests which caught Robert Kraft) are aged 60, 59, 50, 45, 42, and 41.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)I'm not saying I know either way, nor would I be terribly surprised if they were all literally sex workers.
Just curious though 
RockRaven
(19,328 posts)I got those ages from an article about the guilty plea of the spa manager, who is aged 41. Ultimately she pleaded guilty to one misdemeanor count of prostitution and the prosecutors dropped the felony counts related to the money.
It looks like most of them initially got charged with misdemeanor prostitution AND felonies related to handling money from prostitution/RICO but the guilty pleas result in the felonies being dropped and the number of prostitution counts being minimized to a token one.
But I didn't look into it past that one article -- I remembered noticing at the time Kraft got busted that the women arrested were middle-aged, and was just looking for confirmation of that.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)I think as long as sex workers are not being forced in some way (other than simple economic necessity, which is inevitable) that prostitution should be legal.
spooky3
(38,624 posts)Why couldn’t it work the other way, especially if people are seeking an impersonal experience?
I’m kidding, a little. Caveat as always: I want the Cuomo investigation to play out.
BannonsLiver
(20,571 posts)“They’re too old for hand jobs!”
“Ageist!”
Dagstead Bumwood
(6,640 posts)
Treefrog
(4,170 posts)This thread and many I saw yesterday are turning over a rock with a very ugly underside right here on this board.
Scrivener7
(59,486 posts)
Treefrog
(4,170 posts)notice who always show up on any thread that has anything to do with sex.
Response to Treefrog (Reply #31)
Hugh_Lebowski This message was self-deleted by its author.
obamanut2012
(29,357 posts)Not only young women are sex workers, not only young women are trafficked.
And, not all of the "Asian Massage" places are basically brothels, but most of them very much have forced labor, just like many nail salons, Chinese restaurant, and garment factories in the US.
And, the place in Jupiter where Kraft went also gives legitimate massages and foot rubs.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)owners.
There simply was no evidence of it.
That's my recollection from reading the stories back in the day.
I was interested cause I hate Bob Kraft.
Not that it doesn't happen, it does. But apparently not 'there'.
MineralMan
(151,222 posts)They are all murder victims. That is who they are.
What they may have done for a living is totally irrelevant.
This entire train of discussion is so far from the reality of what happened that it's hard for me to believe that it is even happening on DU. Why is the word "Prostitute" even being used here. All of them are:
MURDER VICTIMS FOR JEBUS' SAKE!
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)And we ALL see them all as murder victims, period.
But the question of the REAL motivation of this murderous shithead ... is the part of the story that maintains a bit of intrigue.
MineralMan
(151,222 posts)Yes, indeed, I can.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)suggesting that we should view the horror of what happened any differently ... whether some or all were sex workers ... or not.
However, perhaps you possess amazing powers of observation that I lack.
Certainly possible.
MineralMan
(151,222 posts)I reply as I choose to reply. I was not replying to you, in any case, but to the thread.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)It's even right there in your disclaimer 
Treefrog
(4,170 posts)few days. What’s sad is that I think many do not even realize how offensive their comments are.
Kaleva
(40,352 posts)I recently trashed one thread because that seemed to be a big concern for the OP.
Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)actual, real motivation.
I, for one absolutely don't care either way if every one of the victims was a sex worker, or not.
The penalty should be the same, the despicable horror of what he did should be viewed the same.
I suppose there could be SOME who think differently but learning that's the case would surprise me very much ... here on DU, anyway.
Mr.Bill
(24,906 posts)with whether it was a hate crime. Murdering someone because of their occupation is different than murdering them because of their race. That's why it's important.
What his motive was is not something I'm going to lose sleep about. It is murder either way. But it is something prosecutors have to sort out.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)Hugh_Lebowski
(33,643 posts)Or I have too much faith in my fellow DU'ers.
To me it 100% would make no difference if this happened at the Bunny Ranch or a Buddhist Temple during solemn prayer. For example.
100% equally horrific.
malaise
(295,961 posts)
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/02/us/massage-parlors-human-trafficking.html
Behind Illicit Massage Parlors Lie a Vast Crime Network and Modern Indentured Servitude
She was 49, a recent immigrant and deeply in debt to a loan shark back home in China when she answered an employment ad three years ago that promised thousands of dollars a month, but offered no job description. She realized too late that she had been tricked into working at a massage parlor in Flushing, Queens, where besides kneading backs, she was expected to sexually service up to a dozen men a day.
snip
The frequently middle-aged women who work in parlors with names like Orchids of Asia and Rainbow Spa are often struggling to pay off high debts to family members, loan sharks, labor traffickers and lawyers who help them file phony asylum claims. In some cases, their passports are taken and their illegal immigration status keeps them further in the shadows, with some of them rotated every 10 days to two weeks between spas operated by the same owners. Forced to pay for their own supplies and even their own condoms, many women must sleep on the same massage tables where they service customers and cook on hot plates in cramped kitchens or on back steps.
snip
In strip malls across the country, neon signs and brightly colored placards promise hot stones, acupuncture and shiatsu with photos of women or couples receiving relaxing shoulder rubs. But a traditionally Asian form of therapeutic relaxation with deep roots in big-city Chinatowns has spun off a different kind of massage parlor that has little to do with traditional remedies. It has exploded into a $3 billion-a-year sex industry that relies on pervasive secrecy, close-knit ownership rings and tens of thousands of mostly foreign women ensnared in a form of modern indentured servitude.
snip
Law enforcement officials said there were an estimated 9,000 illicit massage parlors across the country, from Orlando to Los Angeles.
The article discusses women in their 40s, 50s and 60s caught up in this network of an estimated 9,000 fronts for trafficking.
kcr
(15,522 posts)They aren't always young as has already been pointed out in this thread.
uponit7771
(93,532 posts)Come in.... This sounds like a lot of mostly white peop le trying to say and excuse this from being a racist act for some damn reason.
One person intimated that if the guy didn't yell out racist shit or have a racist manifesto then he didn't do anything racist come on DU we better than this
kcr
(15,522 posts)It's very clear the guy was racist and sexist. I'm not sure why that suddenly means these places weren't fronts for prostitution. DU is practically the only place I've been where people are denying this for some crazy reason.
treestar
(82,383 posts)that middle-aged women with debts were vulnerable to this.
Middle aged women can still be trafficked.
Just because you think they are past all attractiveness doesn't mean this does not happen.