General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAbout all these electric cars the manufacterers are promising.
Various Car companies are promising 40% to 50% by 2025 and all electric by 2030.
Here is my concern, we do not have the infrastructure for all electric cars. This will take hundreds of billions to build. And there is not enough of a political will to do it. Not with the GOP in control of so many States and the slim lead the Democrats have in Congress.
Is it the right thing do? Of course, but America does what is barely necessary these days, with no larger vision.
This is not because of a lack of agenda on behalf of the Democrats, but because forward looking ideas are stalemated by the Party of Trump at every turn. Will people who won't even wear masks and alter their trucks to pollute more really agree to building a nation of electric cars. These are the ones that would rather build a new Coal Power Plant than more solar and wind.
So what happens to all these electric cars coming off of the assembly line with people not seeing the infrastructure to drive them.
I am sure the GOP solution is tax cuts.
NoMoreRepugs
(9,418 posts)SheltieLover
(57,073 posts)Delarage
(2,186 posts)I applaud GM, for one, for working on this issue and I hope they make a lot of money while creating good American jobs.
It will be slow for the "rolling coal" crowd, but when their under-performing trucks look weak and slow compared to everyone else's, maybe they'll change.
We need to let the smart people work and support them....another reason to get rid of the filibuster (and Republicans from elected office in general):
[link:https://www.automotiveworld.com/articles/is-the-infrastructure-ready-for-an-electric-vehicle-future/|
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)are building networks of high speed charging stations.
Besides the charging infrastructure, charging times have to be reduced. This is not a problem if your electric is your commuter car, charging overnight in your garage and you have your Navigator for longer trips.
But, still, overnight charging is a bit of a problem when you have a 35th floor apt.
sarcasmo
(23,968 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,853 posts)Hours and hours won't work for me when I'm on one of my long road trips.
Maybe my next car can be a hybrid.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)You can get a pretty good days driving by starting out with a full charge and a half hour lunch/dinner break.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)...they can tow behind them for long trips.
It's designed for highway speeds and contains a fairly large fuel tank (gasoline, diesel, or natural gas) that powers an IC engine, and that turns a generator to power your car.
You plug it into your car's electrical system and start it up. Now, when you drive, the base load for highway cruising and running the electronics is coming from the generator being towed behind you. If you need extra power, the car's internal battery will supplement the generator.
It wouldn't have to be a very big generator. Maybe a 2-cylinder with about 60 horsepower. The entire caboose could be low and short so it doesn't obstruct your view. It would have to have automotive-quality emissions controls, obviously.
Heck, it could even be light enough that it doesn't need wheels. You could just slip it into a pair of sockets under the bumper, like those hidden trailer hitches that SUVs. Pin it in place, and it rides like a bumper extension.
They could be available for rental by the day or by the week.
Thunderbeast
(3,407 posts)The "range extender" 1500cc engine starts after my 47-55 miles of battery is exhausted. The little motor drives the generator to provide electric propulsion to the wheels. Until the technology for ten minute recharge is a reality, PHEV vehicles (like the Prius or RAV4 Prime) are a great bridge to an all-electric future.
GM stopped making the Volt in favor of the all-electric Bolt (an unfortunate name). That is placing a huge bet.
BTW, used Volts are selling at huge discounts right now since they stopped making them. I bought a used one for $15k that sold new in 2018 for over $40k (before incentives). The trade press speculates that GM lost $30k on each unit factoring in R&D.
The car is fairly exotic, and specially certified Chevrolet technicians are required to do repairs. The risk is that those specialists will become more rare over time.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,326 posts)Its like an Electromotive train engine or a navy ship getting their electric propulsion from an onboard generator.
We are on our second Ford Fusion Energi we picked up 1 year old. I think people are afraid to buy these cars used even though they have long battery warranties. So the price drops on the used market.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)I liked the concept of the Volt and wasn't happy it was discontinued. I'm sure Toyota lost their shirts on the Prius for years before they became popular and profitable. GM needed to stick with it longer.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)You'll lose 20-40% of your range just towing the thing. Not much of a solution.
The actual solution is pretty simple, slightly better batteries and more available fast charging. The technology already exists, incremental improvements will get us there relatively quickly.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Like this, I would think.
It would be in the wake of the vehicle. Very little drag.on the highway
Maybe 200, 250 pounds total. 60 horsepower is about 45kW. My parents have an 8kW generator that is basically a lawnmower engine in a metal frame. I have to believe an automotive-quality engine would be smaller, cleaner, and more efficient.
Or, just make a battery with wheels on it and the tow that behind you.
Lancero
(3,003 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)...in electric mode compared to all electrics.
I thinking of the family that only needs extended range for vacations or something. I mean, 200 miles would let me a couple of weeks in my normal life but when I go on vacation I generally drive, and it's usually the 800 miles to Joliet, IL. I haven't been on a plane since 2010 and don't miss it a bit. So an all electric car would be fine for me 50 weeks out of the year.
As opposed to the people that commute 150 miles every day.
I'm not fully up to date on the latest hybrids and all electrics, though. I'm still burning dead dinosaurs. And my next car... I want to get a manual so I can teach my kid but those are getting hard to find, and necessitates a gas burner.
But it would probably be the last gas burner I bought!
Rstrstx
(1,399 posts)Batteries are getting large enough for this not to be an issue.
wcast
(595 posts)Unless you travel more than 200+ miles a day, which most people dont, you dont need as large an infrastructure as might be thought. That said if there is a need, someone willing to make money will supply the demand.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)and park on the street. Where do I charge it? I don't see it happening without Government funding.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)That's a start.
People who park on the street are definitely a logistical problem, but not insurmountable. You could solve it with more local fast charging. If every gas station had a fast charger, for example, we'd be pretty close.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)but can they pass it with the obstructionist GOP. There is no infrastructure bill with a 50/50 Senate with the filibuster.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)It's a big problem and not just about EV charging.
What infrastructure? Even with a hundred mile a day commute, you charge at home.
Unless were worried about the welfare queens in Teslas with no place to charge either of them now, right?
arlyellowdog
(866 posts)At my daughter-in-law workplace (a hospital) there are free charging stations. The idea of free fuel is a huge incentive. They want to get a specific electric SUV, but the very large manufacturer cant keep up with demand. Their new house will have a charging station. There are movements to put charging stations in townhome communities and apartments. Charging stations are not hard to install. The demand is pushing the installation and the installation is pushing the demand. Please, one more thing, my brother has a Tesla. He does not bring it on long trips and has another car for trips. So it is the wealthy who are leading the charge for EVs, but it will help get it mainstream. Keeping gas prices higher helps.
Klaralven
(7,510 posts)Light vehicle sales are about 16 million a year. Say 50% in 2025 and 100% in 2030. If the ramp up in production is linear, that is an average of 8 million per year over 10 years or 80 million vehicles.
The US light vehicle fleet is about 276 million. So by 2030, the fleet would be about 80/276 = about 30% electric.
but for new car sale to be mostly electric by 2030, there must be a good infrastructure for electric cars.
mezame
(295 posts)...for that, and be certain that a lot of money is already flowing into making it happen, including influencing policy. The sooner we're off fossil fuels, the better.
[link:https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/electricity_infrastructure.html|]
edhopper
(33,575 posts)will Congress, with GOP obstruction, be able to fund the plan?
mezame
(295 posts)they have to get the ball rolling if they want to sell their cars; that industry's influence on Congresscritters is legendary.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)pay for this for it to be as widespread as needed. Will they?
GregariousGroundhog
(7,521 posts)Many utilities are upgrading their distribution systems to account for expected growth in co-generation (IE, solar on rooftops) and electric vehicle use. They are eager to capture revenue from spending that once went to the likes of Shell, BP, Aramco, and so on. Some have also started offering rebates to help finance charging stations.
arlyellowdog
(866 posts)He worked for the Energy Departments ERA which damn Reagan disbanded in his Inaugural Address. Reagan took the solar panels off the White House. Reagan was a bad bad man. My husband, who died on Earth Day 2016, missed the Trump evil, but I know hes smiling down now.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)Carter wanted us off Fossil Fuels in 25 years, then 25 years of Republican control stopped any hope of that.
MichMan
(11,917 posts)Once people find out they have to pay $6 a gallon for gas, they will flock to buying electric vehicles
DFW
(54,370 posts)Here in Europe, gas has been that for years, and no one has been flocking to buy electric vehicles.
Without the infrastructure EVERYWHERE, it just won't happen. Even with Europe's dense population and relatively short distances, if people don't KNOW for a fact that they can recharge, get repairs, and get replacements during repairs with little difficulty, they won't make the switch. I have seen far more hybrids and fully electric vehicles in the States, where gas costs half what it costs here.
Here the obstacle is not Republicans, but bureaucracy. There is an oft-told tale in Germany about an engineering convention that takes place every 3 years. A German and his American colleague were talking, and it turned out they both had been selected to plan a bridge of similar length and width. They agreed to compare notes in 3 years to see who had made the most progress.
Three years later, they meet up, and the German asks his American colleague, and says, "well, how far along are you with your bridge?" The American says, "actually, I'm all done. The project is finished!" The German proudly says, "wow, so am I. My project is finished, too!" His American counterpart says, "wow, nice going! Where is your bridge?"
The German says, "what do you mean, where is it?" The American says, "well, my bridge is here, in the state of (wherever), and is now in service as of two weeks ago. Where is your bridge located, and when did it open?" The German stammers, "you mean your bridge was actually built? I meant that it took me three years just to get the paperwork done! We start construction next year."
hunter
(38,311 posts)The original Tesla charging station by the big box stores and chain restaurants has been expanded. The Wal-Mart parking lot has a row of generic quick charging stations.
Many affluent neighborhoods are having their electrical infrastructure upgraded, mostly to cope with the rooftop solar it seems. Our schools and a few of our shopping centers have solar panels over their parking lots.
New natural gas power plants are being built, old ones upgraded.
Automobile culture is unsustainable, of course. The earth will be gutted if every adult human demands an automobile with all the roads, highways and parking lots to accommodate it. But in affluent communities where automobile culture has already destroyed the natural environment, the switchover seems to be easy.
Upgrading electric infrastructure is only a small fraction of what we pay automobile culture anyways -- buying new cars and scrapping old ones, building and maintaining roads, highways, parking lots, medical care for people maimed in automobile accidents, etc..
In a better world we'd rebuild our cities such that car ownership is unnecessary and replace fossil fuels with nuclear power as well.
Fossil fuels, especially natural gas because it is perceived as a "clean fuel," are destroying the earth's natural environment as we know it. People today are dying, people are having to relocate, because of global warming, and its only going to get worse.
Ultimately electric automobiles do not make the world a better place. They may be less horrible than cars that use gasoline, but that's not saying much.
Stallion
(6,474 posts)quite a few places here in Dallas
MichMan
(11,917 posts)Maybe get a horse like the Amish around here have. That will make the 38 mile round trip to town for groceries an all day affair.
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)my podunk suburb in central MA has a population of 15,000
But there are multiple places to get the car charged at and it's only going to grow. A lot of corporate locations will set up slots for this as time goes on as well as that'll be a place where it needs to happen.
And a double-check - https://www.plugshare.com/en - is showing five locations in town.
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)So back when I was commuting, when I got home I plugged the car in. Next morning like magic it was fully charged.
MichMan
(11,917 posts)Fossil fuels, especially natural gas because it is perceived as a "clean fuel," are destroying the earth's natural environment as we know it. People today are dying, people are having to relocate, because of global warming, and its only going to get worse.
Ultimately electric automobiles do not make the world a better place. They may be less horrible than cars that use gasoline, but that's not saying much"
The poster I replied to was stating an opinion that all car ownership is bad. My reply was since mass transit isn't feasible in rural less populated areas, that we would not have any mode of transportation
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)yeah it is 'a bit' overstated that all personal transport needs to be abolished. A more sensible view would be to invest in urban public transport and building out the EV charging infrastructure.
hunter
(38,311 posts)But we can build attractive pedestrian friendly cities where people CHOOSE to live without the hassles of car ownership.
Overall, people living in urban areas have a much smaller environmental footprint than people living in rural areas or low density suburbs, especially if they don't own a car and avoid factory farmed meat and dairy products.
I won't cry if entire industries die and are replaced by other industries because people CHOOSE to reduce their environmental footprint.
Changing careers is normal in the modern world where technologies are quickly evolving. I used to work for a place that made mainframe computers, back when many corporations and government agencies were still expecting us to repair 10 megabyte hard drives the size of washing machines. This company no longer exists and the entire factory was demolished many years ago. All the people who worked there had to find other work.
There's nothing sacred about the mainframe computer industry, the automobile industry, the coal industry, the factory farm meat and dairy industry, the fuel ethanol industry, etc..
With a much stronger social safety net our nation could easily adapt to the reality of climate change and the transition to an economy that is not dependent on fossil fuels.
Steelrolled
(2,022 posts)particularly given what we are facing with climate change. I still have some hope.
RazzleCat
(732 posts)I hope that someone ensures that they all have the same plug. I keep thinking of cell phones and how each manufacturer has a proprietary plug. I just keep thinking of everyone have to have a selection of dongles in there auto to charge.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)That standard has been in place for years, not even an issue.
bamagal62
(3,257 posts)Turns out his apartment building (which was built new in 2019) has no electrical outlets in the parking garage. So, no electric car for him. I find it odd that no one even thought about that when building the new complex. And, this is in the downtown area of Minneapolis.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)and without a government program, it won't happen. But can we get a government program with the GOP trying to stop anything good?
arlyellowdog
(866 posts)My son lives in blue Virginia, but was told bluer Maryland is way ahead in EV promoting laws.
phylny
(8,380 posts)in Reston, Virginia.
bamagal62
(3,257 posts)Going to work!
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)When I got my first EV back in 2010, finding charging was close to impossible. I charged at home, stayed within my range, and never thought about road trips.
These days, it is very easy to cross the country in my EV and we're still just ramping up. I have no doubt the infrastructure will be there. When it all boils down, it is just electricity. We've known how make and distribute it for well over a century.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)with houses and garages? Do you think the GOP will back a program to get charging stations in the cities, where apartment dwellers park on the street.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)Yes, people who park on the street are still the biggest challenge. It is not insurmountable, however.
A number of government entities here (cities, state) are subsidizing fast charging in public parking spots. As for GOP controlled states, it can happen. I noticed that Oklahoma (of all places) is creating a fairly robust statewide fast charging network. On top of that, there are private companies creating their own charging networks.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)As EC use much simpler engineering there is a much lower capital cost for a manufacturer.
A more challenging problem is refuelling an EC. Euclid, starting manufacturing in Arizona this summer has a 500 mile range and refuels in 20 minutes.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)on infrastructure.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)The basic premise of the OP that there won't be enough capital to make (or refit) EC factories is simply not accurate.
Many challenges lay before us to convert to 100% EC production but capital formation isn't one of them.
CoopersDad
(2,193 posts)To fill up my wife's car.
My Volt only takes three seconds to plug in at home.
I'll have to look into Euclid.
58Sunliner
(4,386 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)Mysterian
(4,587 posts)More than half of US electric production in 2021 will come from coal (30%) and gas (30%).
I support increased use of nuclear power and solar/wind.
tinrobot
(10,895 posts)And as power sources get cleaner, the EV automatically gets cleaner as well.
MichMan
(11,917 posts)Suck for the tens and tens of thousands of us in Michigan who are employed in the auto industry, but since the rest of the country hates them, I doubt anyone will really care.
MichMan
(11,917 posts)machoneman
(4,006 posts)...it would be given away for free! Tongue-in-cheek for sure!
Only a kid then but I do remember vaguely the full page ads in the Chicago Tribune by Commonwealth Edison saying just that. Too bad they were wrong!
hunter
(38,311 posts)We just don't pay for the damage fossil fuels do to the earth, or the people fossil fuels maim and kill, or the lands that become uninhabitable because of rising sea levels, floods, heat, and drought.
Miguelito Loveless
(4,465 posts)than fossil fuels, but to be fair, the cost of long term waste storage and cleanup of accidents that do happen is NOT factored into cost either.
We do need a new generation of reactors, I just dont have a lot of faith when they are run for profit.
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)machoneman
(4,006 posts)No longer familiar with commercial construction costs, but I'd guess a easy $100,000 with labor, permits, signage, etc.
It's an amazing amount of money for one single station! Now multiply that by the tens of thousands and it reminds me of the late Senator Dirksen who famously once said..."a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon you're talking real money".
I have my doubts that the building of a sufficient number of stations will occur any time soon. Sure, all the big metro areas will get covered but what about all the in-between towns, small cities, etc.?
Blue_Adept
(6,399 posts)Plug in some zip codes of small cities and in-between towns where you are and see what's what.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)We don't have a full-time one but there's a guy we use when we need something done, and I asked him about it.
He says the rapid chargers run off 240-volt single-phase power, the same power as an electric dryer. I believe the compressors for central air conditioning also run off the same power. I didn't ask the amperage; I should have.
But if you can be wired for an electric clothes dryer or central air you can probably add your own charger to your household. Either in your garage or in your driveway.
I guess if you parked on the street you could install a locked curbside station on your property.
Hmmm... I wonder what the zoning law are on that.
Thunderbeast
(3,407 posts)It is not a rare installation. Most people will want an electrician to install it, but if you are comfortable working in a service box, it can be done by a DIY trip to a hardware store. No different that a range or dryer.
If you have a dryer in the garage, you can buy a plug-in splitter allowing you to use the same circuit (though not at the same time).
shanti
(21,675 posts)That would be perfect for my usage.
moondust
(19,979 posts)that I have been expecting for a few years is...vehicle rooftop solar panels that are always charging when the vehicle is outdoors and not covered overhead. I've been plugging portable solar panels into my parked vehicle for years particularly in cold weather.
I'm not aware of any vehicles with the rooftop option available now but with a quick search it looks like there are some companies working on it now for more than a year.
If the new Prius is driven four days a week for a maximum of 31 miles a day, there will be no need for the car to be plugged in, Mitsuhiro Yamazaki, director at the solar energy systems division of NEDO, told Bloomberg earlier this month.
~
https://karmaimpact.com/forget-roofracks-rooftop-solar-panels-may-soon-be-an-option-for-car-buyers/
modrepub
(3,495 posts)Infrastructure for all IC engine demand was put in place with little direct government development. Didn't the original oil companies put out their own service stations when cars became more common on the American landscape? Others joined in when there was critical mass. Expect the same to happen if politicians can keep their noses out of it.
Expect something similar for the EVs in the coming decades. Tesla set up its own super charging stations. At some point others will join in when there's enough of them on the road. In about 20 years kids will wonder what stopping to "fill up the car" means.
The folks managing the electric grid in my neck of the woods have been preparing for the time when electric cars are the norm. See: https://learn.pjm.com/energy-innovations/plug-in-electric. I'm hoping I can keep my diesel car running until I can get an EV. EVs are now cheaper to operate than IC cars. I'm talking about overall costs; EVs have a larger initial capital cost than ICs.
A possible side benefit of having an EV is it could act as a back up system for your house when the power goes out. A whole fleet of plug in cars brings up the possibility of using it as a big storage battery for the grid. You could actually get paid for the electricity stored in your car if grid demand exceeds supply. The next 5-10 years will be interesting.
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)You charge your car at home overnight. A standard 30 or 50 amp plug is all that is needed. Fast charging infrastructure for long trips is being built out and is already functional. The major obstacle is charging times, but that is being solved.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)on the street where I park it?
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)But cities will solve the sidewalk charging problem, it aint rocket science.
it's a brute force infrastructure problem. That is why I say without the money from the Federal Government, it won't happen. Cities' transit budgets are mostly strapped for cash.
It's not, can we do it, it's will we.
Voltaire2
(13,027 posts)Every city street has electricity. The only problem is how install and manage sidewalk delivery. That is a local problem that can be solved on the local level, but sure it would be great if the fed helped out with money, like in an infrastructure bill or something.
You seem to be looking for obstacles that prevent immediate universal adoption. So why is universal immediate adoption necessary?
edhopper
(33,575 posts)I don't think the money is there in most cities. The obstacle is the obstruction of the GOP. Will the Congress be able to procure money for this.
Not universal adaption, but in the next few years if car companies are going all electric.
NotASurfer
(2,149 posts)This publication has a map of the area covered. Interestingly it looks like it's mostly areas of the old South (former Confederacy) plus Ohio and Indiana. The utilities are prrrobably looking at this as a potential revenue stream, but with the TVA right in the middle of the area it could turn into rural electrification 2.0
David__77
(23,376 posts)And they are in cases advocating for and implementing incentive programs for electrification including creating charging infrastructure.
marie999
(3,334 posts)I am worried about the electric grid.
edhopper
(33,575 posts)it will take a lot of funding, and I don't see the GOP letting that happen.
Polybius
(15,398 posts)Not enough electrical resources? No problem, then just buy used.