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intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:41 PM Mar 2021

USA Today Opinion: Why the COVID lab-leak theory in Wuhan shouldn't be dismissed

[I just do not understand the reluctance of so many (here at DU! Where smart, thoughtful people congregate!) to examine this issue carefully, and instead denigrate those who do, and dismiss it all as RW conspiracy theory!]

This article is a good, deep dive by this journalist who has researched and reported on many cases of lab safety issues.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/opinion/2021/03/22/why-covid-lab-leak-theory-wuhan-shouldnt-dismissed-column/4765985001/

I have reported on safety lapses at elite U.S. labs. There is no reason to believe they aren’t happening at labs in other countries as well.

Alison Young, Opinion contributor

Published 1:00 AM PDT Mar. 22, 2021 Updated 10:36 AM PDT Mar. 22, 2021

As members of a World Health Organization expert team have made international headlines recently dismissing as “extremely unlikely” the possibility that a laboratory accident in Wuhan, China, could have sparked the COVID-19 pandemic, I can’t stop thinking of the hundreds of lab accidents that are secretly occurring just in the United States. .... As an investigative reporter, I have spent more than a decade revealing shocking safety breaches that officials at laboratories in our own country don’t want the public to know about. ....I have uncovered exotic and deadly bacteria that have hitched rides out of high-security labs on workers’ dirty clothing, silently spreading contagion for weeks. I have revealed how spacesuit-like protective gear and tubes carrying safe oxygen to scientists have torn or broken – repeatedly – and high-tech safety systems have failed dramatically. Vials of viruses and bacteria have gone missing. Researchers bitten by infected lab animals have been allowed to move about in public – rather than being quarantined – while waiting for signs of infection to appear.

(...)

The notion that more than 2.7 million deaths worldwide – so far – could be the result of a lab accident has been met with skepticism and derision by many journalists and scientists who often portray it as a crackpot conspiracy theory fueled by former President Donald Trump’s China-bashing rhetoric. Without question, the lab-leak theory has been politically and racially weaponized in ugly ways. Nonetheless, that rhetoric needs to be separated from legitimate questions about lab safety that are deserving of investigation.

Science, like journalism, is supposed to be about facts and about getting to the truth. But those who dare seek answers to reasonable questions about any lab accidents in Wuhan are accused of peddling conspiracies.

Let me be clear: Labs in Wuhan might not have played any role in the origin of the pandemic. But a year later, no source has been found, and the world deserves a thorough, unbiased investigation of all plausible theories that is conducted without fear or favor.

Much more at link above.
102 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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USA Today Opinion: Why the COVID lab-leak theory in Wuhan shouldn't be dismissed (Original Post) intrepidity Mar 2021 OP
OK, how about this: it just does not fucking matter. marble falls Mar 2021 #1
Um, yes, it absofuckinglutely does nt intrepidity Mar 2021 #4
The truth matters. Stop spreading lies. lagomorph777 Mar 2021 #12
++++++++++++ hlthe2b Mar 2021 #16
Excuse me? What lies am I spreading? nt intrepidity Mar 2021 #36
The Wuhan BS is just to give Trump an out... Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #78
It matters BIG TIME - hundreds of bio level 3 and 4 labs labs in the world womanofthehills Mar 2021 #69
Except that the WHO did dismiss it after going to Wuhan! Initech Mar 2021 #2
However, intrepidity Mar 2021 #6
+1. Basically you don't need a "leak" if you're living in an area that is a reservoir dalton99a Mar 2021 #13
And you don't need a hypothetical undocumented spillover event intrepidity Mar 2021 #23
Thank you. nt live love laugh Mar 2021 #17
Peter Daszak was heading the WHO group has a BIG conflict of interest - financial ties with lab womanofthehills Mar 2021 #64
This was a long time back last year... Takket Mar 2021 #3
The poster has been provided scores of those links repeatedly in their multiple similar threads. hlthe2b Mar 2021 #8
That's the second I've seen today... Hekate Mar 2021 #37
There was a third posted that was hidden that appeared to have encouraged the OP hlthe2b Mar 2021 #38
Not saying it is man-made intrepidity Mar 2021 #10
Not an article. A right-wing opinion piece. lagomorph777 Mar 2021 #14
In a bio-4 lab, gain-of-function could work the same as in the wild womanofthehills Mar 2021 #71
You keep posting this CT bullshit? WHY? When the world's leading virologists (CDC, WHO, EURO-CDC hlthe2b Mar 2021 #5
+1000 This is getting out of hand. lagomorph777 Mar 2021 #7
+1 jcgoldie Mar 2021 #11
Obama closed our gain-of-function labs in 2014 - he was afraid womanofthehills Mar 2021 #56
It is NOT that an accident could not occur, it is that the genomic sequencing makes it clear it is hlthe2b Mar 2021 #59
Some scientists believe you can't say it didn't come from the lab - a lab with many safety issues womanofthehills Mar 2021 #95
The WHO found no evidence of any kind - they are just guessing & their leader funds the lab womanofthehills Mar 2021 #72
Why do you have a bug up your butt about this? Ocelot II Mar 2021 #9
Because of the resistence that I'm seeing and experiencing intrepidity Mar 2021 #15
It is always the uninformed that fall for these theories. Do yourself a favor hlthe2b Mar 2021 #18
Wujan conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats - state dept warns Washington womanofthehills Mar 2021 #96
Maybe there's a reason for the overwhelming resistance? 🤔 live love laugh Mar 2021 #19
Knee-jerk-because-Trump-blah-blah intrepidity Mar 2021 #24
It has nothing to do with Trump fucking it up jcgoldie Mar 2021 #27
I meant, because Trump supports the lab leak theory intrepidity Mar 2021 #30
The Wujan lab got grants under Trump and Obama womanofthehills Mar 2021 #73
It is highly disturbing to me that you keep spreading this sort of Right wing nonsense. Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #82
U.S. INTEL not ruling out lab accident as covid origin womanofthehills Mar 2021 #98
International Researchers Conclude COVID-19 is Not Man-Made hlthe2b Mar 2021 #20
But , but , but , but, but - our director of National Intelligence womanofthehills Mar 2021 #99
This is at least your third post pushing the Phoenix61 Mar 2021 #21
+!! speak easy Mar 2021 #57
The coronavirus was not engineered in a lab. Here's how we know. hlthe2b Mar 2021 #22
STRAW MAN ALERT intrepidity Mar 2021 #51
Your repeated CT posts as propagated by Q-anon, RW media and malign foreign actors say as much hlthe2b Mar 2021 #52
If anthrax can escape from our labs, why can't Sars excape from theirs? womanofthehills Mar 2021 #74
so, not the damned point. Please do some reading. hlthe2b Mar 2021 #80
I have no kooky conspiracy crap - I can give you a good source for all womanofthehills Mar 2021 #86
Our bio labs are a MESS - and dangerous but you think China's lab is really safe! womanofthehills Mar 2021 #88
Because you meant it happened spontainiously or with a magic wand? marble falls Mar 2021 #65
The labs are NOT engineering the SARS virus - they were doing gain-of-function research womanofthehills Mar 2021 #77
Yes. some are claiming this. Kindly read the damned thread. hlthe2b Mar 2021 #79
USA Today opinion EYESORE 9001 Mar 2021 #25
Yes. OPINION piece--just as the WAPO article cited earlier was a OPINION piece not an editorial hlthe2b Mar 2021 #29
SARS-CoV-2, virus that causes COVID-19, shows zero evidence of being artificially engineered hlthe2b Mar 2021 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author roamer65 Mar 2021 #53
I know you won't read it, but here is the actual study that debunks this crap hlthe2b Mar 2021 #28
Forgive me for asking genxlib Mar 2021 #32
Supposedly, they do gain-of-function research to prepare for this happening in the wild womanofthehills Mar 2021 #76
Sorry, genxlib Mar 2021 #33
+1. "We do not believe that ANY type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible" dalton99a Mar 2021 #34
Then why was Obama so worried about a Sars pandemic caused by a lab escape? - article from 2014 womanofthehills Mar 2021 #75
We'll see how much integrity you have intrepidity Mar 2021 #40
You clearly did not understand nor comprehend it nor the methods used. That is why I hlthe2b Mar 2021 #45
OMG! Has Washington Post gone to the other side - are they Q-Anon? womanofthehills Mar 2021 #81
You don't even know what's going on because you keep posting without reading. WAPO posted hlthe2b Mar 2021 #83
Bye. The world is not black and white. womanofthehills Mar 2021 #93
Everyone please alert on the multiple conspiracy posts torius Mar 2021 #31
I've been alerting - some have been removed but this one seems to persist. lagomorph777 Mar 2021 #39
Thank you torius Mar 2021 #42
Well at least now I know who to credit for the numerous posts intrepidity Mar 2021 #43
You're welcome. lagomorph777 Mar 2021 #46
I provided you the Atlantic Council's indepth report that this CT is being pushed via Q-anon & RW hlthe2b Mar 2021 #47
Could you repost the link to the Atalantic, I'm getting an error. tia uponit7771 Mar 2021 #62
Full report pdf and Axios summary hlthe2b Mar 2021 #66
thx !!! uponit7771 Mar 2021 #68
I alerted too, kooky garbage. sarcasmo Mar 2021 #50
I think with so many bio 3 and bio 4 labs in the US, this is an important topic - womanofthehills Mar 2021 #85
Why is it harmful to talk about where a virus might have come from? womanofthehills Mar 2021 #94
How many times are you going to post this nonsense? PSPS Mar 2021 #35
See here, if you are really interested in the explanation intrepidity Mar 2021 #48
Here you.. it'll help with your hat nini Mar 2021 #67
Atl Council confirms: false assertion COVID-19 purposefully leaked from a China lab seeded RW media hlthe2b Mar 2021 #41
Crackpot, conspiracy, opinion pieces are allowed now? sarcasmo Mar 2021 #44
Yes. lagomorph777 Mar 2021 #49
The virus made the zoonotic transfer, period. roamer65 Mar 2021 #54
So Covid escaped from a lab... ibegurpard Mar 2021 #55
Because some RW nuts out there want to start a war with China. roamer65 Mar 2021 #58
There are already more then enough things to criticize China on JI7 Mar 2021 #60
Yes, Tibet, the Uyghurs and the South China Sea. roamer65 Mar 2021 #70
Not enough to start a war in my opinion...a war with China would be disasterous. Demsrule86 Mar 2021 #84
Yes, it would. roamer65 Mar 2021 #87
Pretty much ibegurpard Mar 2021 #61
Yup. roamer65 Mar 2021 #63
No one said the Chinese did it on purpose or it came from lab womanofthehills Mar 2021 #90
I have heard and read some Dumpist crap that it was intentionally released. roamer65 Mar 2021 #92
It has been ruled out by nearly all virologists. torius Mar 2021 #101
The point is - the US labs and world bio labs are dangerous with lots of leaks womanofthehills Mar 2021 #89
This message was self-deleted by its author ibegurpard Mar 2021 #97
The push back is due to black and white thinking. There's a middle ground ecstatic Mar 2021 #91
It's due to virologists from all over torius Mar 2021 #102
This is interesting - just a side note - Galveston Lab & Wujan lab are like sister labs womanofthehills Mar 2021 #100

Demsrule86

(68,350 posts)
78. The Wuhan BS is just to give Trump an out...
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:58 PM
Mar 2021

Seriously, the GOP wants to blame this on China to save their own and Trump's ass.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
69. It matters BIG TIME - hundreds of bio level 3 and 4 labs labs in the world
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:08 PM
Mar 2021

and many escapes and violations. The US had to close Fort Detrick for months in 2019 because two breaches of containment. Actually, I read, China has it all over it's Twitter and media that the virus escaped from Fort Detrick and they were demanding WHO check out our lab.


The Army's premier biological laboratory on Fort Detrick reported two breaches of containment earlier this year, leading to the Centers for Disease and Control halting its high-level research.

The U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases announced Friday that it would restart its operations on a limited scale.

The two breaches reported by USAMRIID to the CDC demonstrated a failure of the Army laboratory to "implement and maintain containment procedures sufficient to contain select agents or toxins" that were made by operations in biosafety level 3 and 4 laboratories, according to the report. Biosafety level 3 and 4 are the highest levels of containment, requiring special protective equipment, air flow and standard operating procedures
.

and further down in article

Another departure was that the military laboratory systematically failed to implement biosafety and containment procedures. In one instance, personnel deliberately propped open the door to the autoclave room while the employee removed biohazard waste.

"This deviation increases the risk of contaminated air from room [redacted] escaping and being drawn into the autoclave room, where individuals do not wear respiratory protection," according to the report
.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/11/24/cdc-inspection-findings-reveal-more-about-fort-detrick-research-suspension.html

intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
6. However,
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:49 PM
Mar 2021

“I want to clarify that all hypotheses remain open and require further study,” said World Health Organization Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus in February 2021.

dalton99a

(81,067 posts)
13. +1. Basically you don't need a "leak" if you're living in an area that is a reservoir
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:51 PM
Mar 2021

Not a fan of the Chinese regime, but the WHO scientists have more credibility than RW hacks (many with zero science background)



intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
23. And you don't need a hypothetical undocumented spillover event
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:06 PM
Mar 2021

when the world's largest repository of bat coronavirus samples exists inside the laboratory in Wuhan!

I don't know with any certainty what the truth is, yet; but the point is that nobody else does, either.

There is just a helluva lot, and increasing, circumstantial evidence that must not be overlooked and dismissed. Why is this even controversial?? (I know the answer: because fucking Trump,)

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
64. Peter Daszak was heading the WHO group has a BIG conflict of interest - financial ties with lab
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:54 PM
Mar 2021

His organization EcoHealth Alliance gives grants to the Wujan lab. Our NIH, USAID and other agencies give money to EcoHealth for this purpose.

WHO inspector has conflict of interest in Wuhan COVID probe: Prominent biologist
Richard Ebright says Peter Daszak has conflict of interest in WHO and Lancet investigations of Wuhan outbreak




TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — A prominent molecular biologist at Rutgers University claims that a member of the World Health Organization (WHO) team investigating the origins of COVID-19 in Wuhan has a conflict of interest, due to his ties with the Wuhan lab at the center of the inquest.

British zoologist and the president of EcoHealth Alliance Peter Daszak is the only individual to be part of both the WHO and The Lancet teams investigating the origins of the Wuhan coronavirus pandemic. However, he has long-term professional and financial ties with the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), which represents a conflict of interest.
Richard H. Ebright is the Board of Governors Professor of Chemistry and Chemical Biology at Rutgers University, and Laboratory Director at the Waksman Institute of Microbiology. He told Taiwan News that Daszak is the contractor who funded the WIV's research on bat SARS-related coronaviruses, with subcontracts of $200 million in USAID funding and $7 million in NIH funding.

Ebright said that Daszak is a collaborator on the WIV research for bat SARS-related coronaviruses. He lamented that the WHO named Daszak as a member of its review team, and The Lancet named Daszak as the head of its review team. Ebright said this makes "it clear that WHO and Lancet reviews cannot be considered credible investigations."

In addition to the funding EcoHealth Alliance receives from USAID, NIH, and other agencies, which it funnels into the WIV, Ebright stated the firm received US$30 million from the US Department of Defense.


https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4119101

Takket

(21,424 posts)
3. This was a long time back last year...
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:46 PM
Mar 2021

But there was an article about how the virus could not be man made because of its structure. That if you were going to man make a virus it wouldn’t look anything like COVID-19.

Sorry I don’t have the link but that is what I recall.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
8. The poster has been provided scores of those links repeatedly in their multiple similar threads.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:50 PM
Mar 2021

intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
10. Not saying it is man-made
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:51 PM
Mar 2021

Does anyone even bother reading the linked articles before posting anymore?

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
71. In a bio-4 lab, gain-of-function could work the same as in the wild
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:26 PM
Mar 2021

gain-of-function basically means you keep transferring the virus to a different animal - for mutations.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
5. You keep posting this CT bullshit? WHY? When the world's leading virologists (CDC, WHO, EURO-CDC
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:48 PM
Mar 2021

and others have rebuked this with actual science-based evidence.

I'm going to believe some RW Trumpster (from your earlier post who sans any science or medical background whatsoever promoted this same CT in WAPO opinion piece this morning) because you keep posting it? NO and I think most DUers have their antennae up as well.

Go get some science-based training. Until then, I hope that others here (besides me) who DO have the background will continue to address these repeated attempts to spread a Trump RW meme.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
56. Obama closed our gain-of-function labs in 2014 - he was afraid
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:27 PM
Mar 2021

Of a pandemic because of the anthrax leaks from our labs plus other violations like labs accidentally sending live virus thru the mail to other labs. He stopped our Sars gain- of- function research. In Trumps second term Trump started our gain-of- function research again. Then in 2019 Our Fort Detrick lab was closed for months because of severe safety violations. Under Obama and Trump our Dept of Health gave grants to the Wuhan lab - I think to help make it more secure. There are hundreds of labs around the world doing dangerous work and to think an accident could not happen makes so sense when accidents have happened.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
59. It is NOT that an accident could not occur, it is that the genomic sequencing makes it clear it is
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:40 PM
Mar 2021

neither manmade nor consistent with the variants that could have come from a lab or lab release. We have genomic sequencing data for various coronaviruses from all types of species dating back decades, as well as the closely related SARS-COV-1 virus (virus which caused SARS in the 2002 worldwide outbreak) as well as from animals associated with the mutation that caused SARS. That virus was clearly traced through the intermediary of Asian palm civets to cave-dwelling horseshoe bats in Xiyang Yi Ethnic Township, Yunnan, China.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
95. Some scientists believe you can't say it didn't come from the lab - a lab with many safety issues
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 02:46 AM
Mar 2021
As many have pointed out, there is no evidence that the virus now plaguing the world was engineered; scientists largely agree it came from animals. But that is not the same as saying it didn’t come from the lab, which spent years testing bat coronaviruses in animals, said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the School of Information at the University of California at Berkeley.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
72. The WHO found no evidence of any kind - they are just guessing & their leader funds the lab
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:29 PM
Mar 2021

They were not able to look at the labs books. It's sad that we cannot discuss this without name calling. If anyone wants to discuss this - they must be a Trumper.

intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
15. Because of the resistence that I'm seeing and experiencing
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:53 PM
Mar 2021

It doesn't fit, and that is highly disturbing.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
18. It is always the uninformed that fall for these theories. Do yourself a favor
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 02:58 PM
Mar 2021

and read to get the background you need to not be susceptible to this kind of crap. You will be grateful you did. I am not trying to deride nor embarrass you. It is only fact. DNA genomic comparisons in virology is a complex issue and you do need to develop some basic understanding to realize why these accusations are bunk. But, even beyond the science, knowing WHO is feeding this conspiracy theory should make you wary of citing RW and Trumpist pawns.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
96. Wujan conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats - state dept warns Washington
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 03:08 AM
Mar 2021

Opinion: State Department cables warned of safety issues at Wuhan lab studying bat coronaviruses by JOSH ROGIN

Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab, which was conducting risky studies on coronaviruses from bats. The cables have fueled discussions inside the U.S. government about whether this or another Wuhan lab was the source of the virus — even though conclusive proof has yet to emerge.

What the U.S. officials learned during their visits concerned them so much that they dispatched two diplomatic cables categorized as Sensitive But Unclassified back to Washington. The cables warned about safety and management weaknesses at the WIV lab and proposed more attention and help. The first cable, which I obtained, also warns that the lab’s work on bat coronaviruses and their potential human transmission represented a risk of a new SARS-like pandemic.

“During interactions with scientists at the WIV laboratory, they noted the new lab has a serious shortage of appropriately trained technicians and investigators needed to safely operate this high-containment laboratory,” states the Jan. 19, 2018, cable, which was drafted by two officials from the embassy’s environment, science and health sections who met with the WIV scientists. (The State Department declined to comment on this and other details of the story.)

The Chinese researchers at WIV were receiving assistance from the Galveston National Laboratory at the University of Texas Medical Branch and other U.S. organizations, but the Chinese requested additional help. The cables argued that the United States should give the Wuhan lab further support, mainly because its research on bat coronaviruses was important but also dangerous.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

jcgoldie

(11,584 posts)
27. It has nothing to do with Trump fucking it up
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:11 PM
Mar 2021

It has to do with the people selling this bullshit are doing so for political reasons.

intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
30. I meant, because Trump supports the lab leak theory
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:27 PM
Mar 2021

because he's a vile racist ignorant asshole, wouldn't know how to evaluate data and facts to save his life.

But, that doesn't automatically invalidate the theory! He doesn't get to decide reality.

And there are plenty of thinkers, researchers, scientists, with *no* political agenda, who have not been convinced to rule that theory out.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
73. The Wujan lab got grants under Trump and Obama
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:35 PM
Mar 2021

Why? Maybe the grants were to help secure the lab better.

Demsrule86

(68,350 posts)
82. It is highly disturbing to me that you keep spreading this sort of Right wing nonsense.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:13 PM
Mar 2021

There are no markers to indicate this had anything to do with the Wuhan lab.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
98. U.S. INTEL not ruling out lab accident as covid origin
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 03:30 AM
Mar 2021
WASHINGTON — Despite a finding by the World Health Organization that the Covid-19 outbreak in China most likely first infected humans through an animal host, the United States is still not ruling out the possibility of a laboratory accident, as officials continue to sort through intelligence about the Chinese government’s initial handling of the outbreak, American and Western officials told NBC News.

A spokesman for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence told NBC News the agency is standing by a public statement it issued in April, which said that American intelligence agencies "will continue to rigorously examine emerging information and intelligence to determine whether the outbreak began through contact with infected animals or if it was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan."

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-still-hasn-t-completely-ruled-out-lab-accident-n1258032

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
20. International Researchers Conclude COVID-19 is Not Man-Made
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:04 PM
Mar 2021
International Researchers Conclude COVID-19 is Not Man-Made
https://www.biospace.com/article/stop-the-conspiracy-theories-novel-coronavirus-has-natural-origin/
Conspiracy theorists have suggested that the novel coronavirus that causes COVID-19 is manmade, leaked from the Wuhan National Biosafety Laboratory that is in the area where the pandemic originated. Researchers with Scripps Research and other institutions around the globe published a study in the journal Nature Medicine debunking the theory after an analysis of the genome sequence of SARS-CoV-2.

“By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes,” said Kristian Andersen, associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps and corresponding author of the study.

Additional authors include Robert F. Garry of Tulane University, Edward Holmes of the University of Sydney, Andrew Rambaut of University of Edinburgh, and W. Ian Lipkin of Columbia University.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
99. But , but , but , but, but - our director of National Intelligence
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 03:38 AM
Mar 2021
"will continue to rigorously examine emerging information and intelligence to determine whether the outbreak began through contact with infected animals or if it was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan."

Intelligence officials counter that one key lab, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, removed from public view a database of 22,000 virus samples for security reasons, and has not allowed a detailed look at the lab's notes or other records.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/u-s-still-hasn-t-completely-ruled-out-lab-accident-n1258032

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
22. The coronavirus was not engineered in a lab. Here's how we know.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:05 PM
Mar 2021

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html

"Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus," they write in the journal article.


Kristian Andersen, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research, and his colleagues looked at the genetic template for the spike proteins that protrude from the surface of the virus. The coronavirus uses these spikes to grab the outer walls of its host's cells and then enter those cells. They specifically looked at the gene sequences responsible for two key features of these spike proteins: the grabber, called the receptor-binding domain, that hooks onto host cells; and the so-called cleavage site that allows the virus to open and enter those cells.

That analysis showed that the "hook" part of the spike had evolved to target a receptor on the outside of human cells called ACE2, which is involved in blood pressure regulation. It is so effective at attaching to human cells that the researchers said the spike proteins were the result of natural selection and not genetic engineering.

Here's why: SARS-CoV-2 is very closely related to the virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), which fanned across the globe nearly 20 years ago. Scientists have studied how SARS-CoV differs from SARS-CoV-2 — with several key letter changes in the genetic code. Yet in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don't seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells. If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn't have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won't work. But it turns out, nature is smarter than scientists, and the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created, the study found.

Another nail in the "escaped from evil lab" theory? The overall molecular structure of this virus is distinct from the known coronaviruses and instead most closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins that had been little studied and never known to cause humans any harm.

"If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness," according to a statement from Scripps.

Where did the virus come from? The research group came up with two possible scenarios for the origin of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. One scenario follows the origin stories for a few other recent coronaviruses that have wreaked havoc in human populations. In that scenario, we contracted the virus directly from an animal — civets in the case of SARS and camels in the case of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS). In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the researchers suggest that animal was a bat, which transmitted the virus to another intermediate animal (possibly a pangolin, some scientists have said) that brought the virus to humans.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
52. Your repeated CT posts as propagated by Q-anon, RW media and malign foreign actors say as much
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 05:07 PM
Mar 2021

No one here is fooled. Psst. This is democraticunderground.com. It is not Q-anon, Parlor, GAB, Telegram, Breitbart, or RW extremist sites designed to propel Trump's BLAME CHINA theories for EVERYTHING in opposition to CDC, WHO, EURO-CDC, and the world's best virologists.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
80. so, not the damned point. Please do some reading.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:03 PM
Mar 2021

Your adding more uninformed kooky conspiracy crap is not helping.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
86. I have no kooky conspiracy crap - I can give you a good source for all
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:22 PM
Mar 2021

I've been on DU long enough, to know I need good sources. Why was Obama so freaked out about this virus causing a pandemic in the US, that he stopped this research?

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
88. Our bio labs are a MESS - and dangerous but you think China's lab is really safe!
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:37 PM
Mar 2021
Improved safeguards needed at biosafety labs

More needs to be done to improve safety and public accountability at the nation’s high-containment biosafety laboratories that work with deadly viruses and bacteria, according to Marc Lipsitch, professor of epidemiology and director of the Center for Communicable Disease Dynamics at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

Recent incidences at government laboratories, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, that possibly exposed lab workers to anthrax, Ebola, and bird flu, demonstrate that even the best labs are not safe. “They are very safe but they are not perfectly safe. If it can happen there it certainly can happen anywhere,” Lipsitch, an infectious disease expert, told USA Today Network in a May 28, 2015 video.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/biosafety-labs-need-improved-safeguards/

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
77. The labs are NOT engineering the SARS virus - they were doing gain-of-function research
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:54 PM
Mar 2021

NO ONE ever claimed it was engineered.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
79. Yes. some are claiming this. Kindly read the damned thread.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:01 PM
Mar 2021

You do not know what you are talking about.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
29. Yes. OPINION piece--just as the WAPO article cited earlier was a OPINION piece not an editorial
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:14 PM
Mar 2021

Not a piece of journalistic investigation, even.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
26. SARS-CoV-2, virus that causes COVID-19, shows zero evidence of being artificially engineered
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:11 PM
Mar 2021
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200318/new-coronavirus-wasnt-made-in-a-lab-genomic-study-shows#1

SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19 illness, shows zero evidence of being artificially engineered, reported a team who published their findings March 17 in Nature Medicine.



"By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes," study co-author Kristian Andersen, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research, said in an institute news release.



The research was a collaborative, international effort: Andersen was joined by scientists from Columbia University in New York City, the University of Sydney in Australia, and Tulane University in New Orleans.



As of Tuesday, the World Health Organization reports almost 185,000 known cases of COVID-19 worldwide, including 7,529 deaths.



As the pandemic spreads, rumors of nefarious plots of scientists creating SARS-CoV-2 in a lab have proliferated.



But Andersen's team believes their investigation proves otherwise. They pointed out that coronaviruses have long existed, causing illnesses of varying severity.



The first severe coronavirus-linked illness -- severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) -- emerged in China in 2003, while another -- Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) -- arose in Saudi Arabia in 2012.


While both of those epidemics died out, COVID-19 continues to spread worldwide. Early on in the pandemic, Chinese scientists mapped the genome of SARS-CoV-2 and made that data freely available to scientists worldwide.


Using that genome map, Andersen and colleagues examined the genetic template for proteins on the outside of the virus, called spike proteins. SARS-CoV-2 uses these proteins to latch onto the host cell.


Digging deeper, the researchers looked at the evolution of key components of the spike protein.


One component, called the receptor-binding domain (RBD), is a kind of "grappling hook" that SARS-CoV-2 uses to grip human cells. The RBD of the new virus is incredibly effective at binding to the cell -- so effective, in fact, that the scientists believe it could only have evolved through natural selection.

Response to hlthe2b (Reply #26)

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
28. I know you won't read it, but here is the actual study that debunks this crap
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:13 PM
Mar 2021

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2

Kristian G. Andersen, Andrew Rambaut, W. Ian Lipkin, Edward C. Holmes & Robert F. Garry

Nature Medicine volume 26, pages450–452(2020)Cite this article



To the Editor — Since the first reports of novel pneumonia (COVID-19) in Wuhan, Hubei province, China1,2, there has been considerable discussion on the origin of the causative virus, SARS-CoV-23 (also referred to as HCoV-19)4. Infections with SARS-CoV-2 are now widespread, and as of 11 March 2020, 121,564 cases have been confirmed in more than 110 countries, with 4,373 deaths5.

SARS-CoV-2 is the seventh coronavirus known to infect humans; SARS-CoV, MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 can cause severe disease, whereas HKU1, NL63, OC43 and 229E are associated with mild symptoms6. Here we review what can be deduced about the origin of SARS-CoV-2 from comparative analysis of genomic data. We offer a perspective on the notable features of the SARS-CoV-2 genome and discuss scenarios by which they could have arisen. Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.

genxlib

(5,506 posts)
32. Forgive me for asking
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:44 PM
Mar 2021

But this seems to be a terrible weapon if it were ever intended to be one.

It has a relatively low death rate especially among military age people.

It also has a relatively long incubation period where it is difficult to detect.

All of which made it almost certain to effect all the Countries. Including the one being blamed for developing it.

If it is a weapon, it is a piss poor one.

People just need someone to blame. Sometimes shit happens. To the degree people are to blame, it will end up being overpopulation and blending of habitats that ends up being the root cause.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
76. Supposedly, they do gain-of-function research to prepare for this happening in the wild
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:51 PM
Mar 2021

Being our scientists were working with China's, it sounds like it was to prepare for a pandemic in the future. With so many lab leaks around the world, one of the scientists could have caught it in the lab - accidents happen all the time.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
75. Then why was Obama so worried about a Sars pandemic caused by a lab escape? - article from 2014
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 07:45 PM
Mar 2021

Do you think Obama was stupid or what???


White House to Cut Funding for Risky Biological Study

Prompted by controversy over dangerous research and recent laboratory accidents, the White House announced Friday that it would temporarily halt all new funding for experiments that seek to study certain infectious agents by making them more dangerous.

It also encouraged scientists involved in such research on the influenza, SARS and MERS viruses to voluntarily pause their work while its risks were reassessed.

Opponents of this type of research, called gain of function — for example, attempts to create a more contagious version of the lethal H5N1 avian influenza to learn which mutations made it that way — were elated.

“Brilliant!” said Peter Hale, the executive director of the Foundation for Vaccine Research, which opposes such experiments. “The government has finally seen the light. This is what we have all been waiting for and campaigning for. I shall sleep better tonight.”


https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/18/us/white-house-to-cut-funding-for-risky-biological-study.html

intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
40. We'll see how much integrity you have
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 04:14 PM
Mar 2021

You are sure I won't read it? How sure?

You could look here, and see that I was discussing this paper. A year ago.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/122868551#post4

Will you admit you made a hasty assumption about me? I doubt it.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
45. You clearly did not understand nor comprehend it nor the methods used. That is why I
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 04:46 PM
Mar 2021

urge you to self-educate.

You are spreading an intentional CT being propagated by Q-anon and the RW. Frankly, it is unforgivable on this site.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=edit&forum=1002&thread=15255362&pid=15255637

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
81. OMG! Has Washington Post gone to the other side - are they Q-Anon?
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:11 PM
Mar 2021
But the possibility of a laboratory accident or inadvertent leak having caused the coronavirus outbreak must not be ignored. The genetic makeup of the coronavirus is similar to a variant found in bats. Research into bat coronaviruses was being conducted by the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which collected samples from a mine in Yunnan province in 2012 and 2013. Earlier in 2012, six miners there exposed to bats and bat feces were hospitalized suffering from an illness similar to severe acute respiratory syndrome, and three died. China has denied that a laboratory leak or accident caused the Wuhan outbreak. Under the high-level controls that the Associated Press disclosed, will China allow foreign scientists to freely ask questions about the research and methods of the Wuhan Institute of Virology?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/we-cant-discover-the-pandemics-origins-if-chinas-thought-police-keep-watching-scientists/2021/01/03/48fc32f6-4b86-11eb-a9f4-0e668b9772ba_story.html?itid=lk_inline_manual_17

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
83. You don't even know what's going on because you keep posting without reading. WAPO posted
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:16 PM
Mar 2021

an opinion piece from a GD RW idiot. SO, what?

I am so done with you. I am waiting to hear if a friend of mine is trapped in the Boulder King Soopers with the active shooter and I so do not wish to interact with you again. Not because you have produced even one cogent post in this thread, but exactly because your refuse to inform yourself before kneejerk posting what countless others here have already explained. So, welcome to ignore.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
93. Bye. The world is not black and white.
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 12:47 AM
Mar 2021

According to WAPO the opinion piece is by - wait for it —
Opinion by the Editorial Board.

torius

(1,652 posts)
31. Everyone please alert on the multiple conspiracy posts
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 03:42 PM
Mar 2021

spreading this dangerous rumor. Not saying the poster MEANS any harm but it is harmful.

torius

(1,652 posts)
42. Thank you
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 04:40 PM
Mar 2021

The other one I replied to is still up too so guess a third one was removed.
Maybe it takes time. Or, people don't read the comments and say hey it's just a USA Today opinion piece etc

intrepidity

(7,241 posts)
43. Well at least now I know who to credit for the numerous posts
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 04:42 PM
Mar 2021

The reason I've posted the WaPo, USA Today and Bloomberg articles, was because earlier this morning, right after I posted this one

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100215254584

it was alerted on and removed, for being "kooky."

I thought it was because of the obscure source, so when I saw those three other sources saying much the same thing, I posted those, to make the point that this isn't some nutty conspiracy theory, as so many seem to think. It is a serious issue and deserves serious discussion.

After posting those, I received noticed from the admins that, upon review, they had reinstated the original post that had been hidden.

Had that post not been hidden, I would most certainly *not* have started 3 more threads from mainstream sources.

So, take a bow.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
85. I think with so many bio 3 and bio 4 labs in the US, this is an important topic -
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:19 PM
Mar 2021

How many times have we missed a possible pandemic? The world needs to take collective action on closing these labs. If it came from China's lab or not - these extremely dangerous labs exist in the US & all over the world. Many of them including our bio labs have had dangerous problems. I want to know if Biden will stop our gain-of-function Sars research like Obama did.

hlthe2b

(101,717 posts)
41. Atl Council confirms: false assertion COVID-19 purposefully leaked from a China lab seeded RW media
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 04:23 PM
Mar 2021
The false assertion that COVID-19 was purposefully leaked from a Chinese lab — spread online through U.S.-based far-right networks like QAnon and eventually bled into right-wing media more broadly.

China, Russia and Iran — drawing on one another’s online disinformation — amplified false theories that the COVID-19 virus originated in a U.S. bioweapons lab or was designed by Washington to weaken their countries, according to a nine-month investigation by AP and the Atlantic Council’s DFRLab.


https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Weaponized-How-rumors-about-COVID-19s-origins-led-to-a-narrative-arms-race.pdf

as discussed here: https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-misinformation-china-russia-iran-bdd7f45a-4212-497c-8c77-c00b4c7c2379.html

The DFRLab report also explores how a separate, earlier stream of disinformation — revolving around the false assertion that COVID-19 was purposefully leaked from a Chinese lab — spread online through U.S.-based far-right networks like QAnon and eventually bled into right-wing media more broadly.



For heavens sakes, can we NOT be party to this misinformation campaign by our enemies and less benign competitors? Can we just not do the RW's work for THEM? Can we stay clear of Q-anon conspiracies?!

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
54. The virus made the zoonotic transfer, period.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:02 PM
Mar 2021

Just like the 1918 flu virus.

Thank god it doesn’t have the death rate of the 1918 flu pandemic virus.

It’s here and we have to accept it AND deal with it.

The pre-COVID world is gone and there is NOTHING we can do to get it back.

ibegurpard

(16,685 posts)
55. So Covid escaped from a lab...
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:13 PM
Mar 2021

What exactly does that change about the millions now dead or any of the precautions we've had to take to prevent the spread?
Why is it so important we continue to keep this theory alive? Did the Chinese lab deliberately release it? Were they not careful enough? Was the virus engineered? What is the point of amplifying this?

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
58. Because some RW nuts out there want to start a war with China.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:32 PM
Mar 2021

It’s not about a virus, it’s about global hegemony.

JI7

(89,174 posts)
60. There are already more then enough things to criticize China on
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:47 PM
Mar 2021

Why do some people always need conspiracy ?

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
87. Yes, it would.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:37 PM
Mar 2021

My point is a pandemic is definitely not a valid reason. Probably poorly worded on my part.

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
63. Yup.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 06:52 PM
Mar 2021

Imagine a war with China. Far worse than SARS-CoV-2.



I will never, EVER buy into the CT that the Chinese did it on purpose. The facts and the characteristics of the virus do not support such a theory.

This little bugger made the zoonotic “hop” and we will never know exactly where and when.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
90. No one said the Chinese did it on purpose or it came from lab
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 09:55 PM
Mar 2021

We are saying it hasn’t been ruled out. Wang Yanyi, Director of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, is a well respected scientist. Our labs did joint research with her.

roamer65

(36,739 posts)
92. I have heard and read some Dumpist crap that it was intentionally released.
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 10:00 PM
Mar 2021

It is out there and I swat it down whenever I can. It’s utter stupidity.

torius

(1,652 posts)
101. It has been ruled out by nearly all virologists.
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 01:56 PM
Mar 2021

I believe scientists over poorly informed, click-hungry op-ed writers. If they want to continue investigating, let them. But there is no reason to push unlikely and unsubstantiated theories. I understand people want a scapegoat. But right now that scapegoat ends up being all Asian Americans. So peopke should stop spreading what is considered CT until provwn otherwise.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
89. The point is - the US labs and world bio labs are dangerous with lots of leaks
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 08:42 PM
Mar 2021

It's important to get the world to deal with these labs. A lab leak in the future from any bio lab in the world can be worse than this.

Response to womanofthehills (Reply #89)

ecstatic

(32,566 posts)
91. The push back is due to black and white thinking. There's a middle ground
Mon Mar 22, 2021, 09:56 PM
Mar 2021

YES, Covid-19 is a REAL virus that has killed millions. WHO did an investigation into the origins, but the problem is that China pretty much micromanaged the entire effort--dictating who, what, when, where, and how the investigation would be done. There are a lot of politics involved. Despite the limited access, WHO concluded that it was "extremely unlikely" to have originated from a lab leak--but "unlikely" does not mean impossible. Honestly, saying anything otherwise would likely cause China to pull back entirely, and we definitely can't have that.

Either way, this situation is still developing. We don't know everything yet.

And yes, figuring out the true origin matters! These questions must be asked to make sure this never happens again!

torius

(1,652 posts)
102. It's due to virologists from all over
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 02:06 PM
Mar 2021

including the US, examining samples and concluding they had not been manipulated as you are suggesting. Gain of function includes manipulation. There’s little middle ground beyond navel gazing. If they prove it was a leak then fine, otherwise posting it is just spreading hysteria and racist violence.

womanofthehills

(8,579 posts)
100. This is interesting - just a side note - Galveston Lab & Wujan lab are like sister labs
Tue Mar 23, 2021, 04:07 AM
Mar 2021
The Galveston lab has worked with China since 2013, when construction began on the Wuhan laboratory. Both the Galveston and Wuhan research facilities operate Biosafety Level 4 laboratories, which are designed to safely contain the most lethal and infectious pathogens for research, LeDuc said.

While the Wuhan lab was under construction, the National Lab provided “short-term training experiences” to the staff, LeDuc said. The Galveston lab also hosted two Chinese post-doctoral students, who were trained to work safely in BSL-4 laboratories and who returned to China to work in the Wuhan lab, LeDuc said.

https://www.galvnews.com/news/free/article_daafd290-4015-5e83-aeb2-c038036da0d9.html
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