We could Japan.

[634-5789]

[MineralMan]

1. I once Japanned a wooden box.

So, I definitely could Japan.

If anyone doesn't know how to Japan, here's a guide:

http://www.cranialstorage.com/Wood/japanning.html

[EarnestPutz]

35. I once explained to a young clerk in the hardware store what "Japan Dryer" was.

[calimary]

41. I never thought of Japan as a verb.

Learn something new every day! Especially HERE!

[soldierant]

49. I was familiar with Mineral man's use of "japan" as a verb, though I've never done it -

but then I'm 75, and I don't think I've heard or seen it for decades. I wouldn't recommend doing it to the health care system.

But 634-5789's use of Japan (with a capital) as a verb is new to me - and probably to everyone.

[jcgoldie]

2. And then...

We could read up on how Japan handles gun control...

[Dustlawyer]

52. We could Japan a lot of things, including gun control, if we could stop industry/corporations

from legally bribing our politicians. This is a root cause of most of our problems.

The other is corporate advertisers controlling media content. The propaganda to manipulate/distract voters from the real causes for the problems we face is another root cause. Blaming minorities, immigrants and Democrats for low wages...

[dalton99a]

4. Kick

From the U.S. House Ways and Means Committee:

[James48]

6. And those prices were seven and eight years ago.

[TygrBright]

11. Hell, I'd be okay if we Franced. Or Netherlanded. Or effing AnywhereButHered. n/t

[PatrickforB]

50. You know what bugs me about seeing these graphs?

Two things, actually:

1. The greed-care system here, or at least my quaint little HMO, has now declared hip replacement as an 'elective surgery,' so they can pass more of the cost onto the victim...sorry, patient.

2. I live in Colorado and know people in Boulder. I have one basic question for ALL politicians:

WHEN WILL OUR POLITICIANS DEVELOP THE COURAGE TO DO THE RIGHT THING ON GUN CONTROL?

and

WHEN WILL OUR POLITICIANS DEVELOP THE COURAGE TO DO THE RIGHT THING ON HEALTH CARE?

In fact, we can ask this about the failure of those we elect to enact to do other things that materially help us, as opposed to tax cuts for billionaire donors, and resolutions honoring statues and buildings. I mean, what about immigration? The whole country is groaning under the stupidity of the current system. Infrastructure? Climate change?

Oh, I forgot...the filibuster, corporate personhood, ALEC, superpacs.

Yesterday I was on the way to pick up dinner curbside, and I pulled over and had a big rant about all this. There. Alone. In the car. But the truth is, I have been, am, and continue to be ANGRY about this shit. Since the days of Reagan, things the American people actually want legislated have about as much impact as static noise. It is what corporate donors and billionaires want that matters, don't you know.

This last stimulus, to be fair, was said to be bipartisan because of near 70% support from Americans. I like Biden. But unless we find a way to pull the Turtle's filibuster fangs, he may not be able to be as transformative as he would othewise want to be. Because I'm liking Biden quite alot.

[erronis]

5. Great discussion. The US is built on capitalism (making money), not socialism (common good)

Healthcare gotta profit.
Industry gotta profit.
Military gotta profit.

Society and taxpayers gotta pay for it.

[Moostache]

13. The USA hit "peak Capitalism" in 2007-2008...

Since the banking sector nearly collapsed the world economy into oblivion and killed the careers and financial futures of MILLIONS of Americans (who NEVER recovered from THAT calamity before getting broadsided by COVID-19 and inept governance).

Capitalism only works while society holds the reins of regulation and taxation over the heads of the corporations. Once it is allowed off the chain to run amok, capitalism is a Darwinian morality play. Bribes, threats, collusion, monopolies, externalities, kick-backs...and that is before you even bother to get creative...they all are used to maximize the almighty profit and denigrate the inputs to the system (human labor, natural resources, community exploitation, etc.).

Capitalism without ardent, enforced state regulation to maintain a level field is hand-to-hand combat, except those with more to start off or faster acquisition strategies use their every advantage to rig the system and ensure there is no real competition, just an illusion of it and a game that the winner takes it all (regardless of fairness, equity or the status of the communities, cities, states or nations hosting these vampires. They suck everything dry, then move on.

Profiting off of human misery, sickness, frailty and disease is a hideous thing to do...yet TRILLIONS of dollars are associated with the practice in America, where the largest single chunk of the total economy is healthcare - and NOT improving or even matching service levels and successes in other nations.

[HUAJIAO]

23. " Profiting off of human misery, sickness, frailty and disease is a hideous thing to do...."

This has been going on in "America" since the late 16th century.
See WHITE TRASH, The 400-Year Untold History of Class in America, by Nancy Isenberg

[Beartracks]

40. Capitalism is like a nuclear reactor: very powerful, but requires regulation...

... to maximize its value and usefulness and avoid a meltdown.

=======

[cynical_idealist]

56. Nice summary

[luvtheGWN]

53. You are so right.

Interesting thing about Japanese physicians (and an important reason why healthcare costs are as low as they are): Japanese doctors are paid about the same amount as a middle manager in a company. They are paid less than Canadian/European docs. They are considered a public service.

[kcr]

7. We could Canada, too

[roamer65]

20. I prefer the Ontario single payor model.

Hospitals are mostly private, but must accept payment from OHIP as payment in full.

[IronLionZion]

8. Japan is like VA for all

since Canada is like Medicare for all.

[rickyhall]

9. I just kept going back and looking at it, amazed. Surgery 10 times higher than civilized countries!!

[Celerity]

19. those Ferraris don't buy themselves

[Martin68]

10. Like many things in Japan, healthcare has a hidden side.

When my Japanese wife's mother was in the hospital with cancer, she was expected to give gifts to the doctors and nurses to make sure they took good care of her. Apparently these gifts were not optional.

[uponit7771]

12. We talking about 50k - 100k dollar "gifts" or the 500 - 750 dollar gifts? thx in advance

[Martin68]

15. Gifts in the range of 200 to 500 dollars each for many doctors and nurses. I did not appreciate what

amounted to a bribe for getting doctors and nurses to do their job. Btw, the costs mentioned on the chart do not factor in the amount that comes out of your paycheck for national health insurance.

[uponit7771]

18. What was the range in Japan? thx in advance

[Martin68]

29. Please don't misunderstand me. I completely support universal national health in insurance.

Canada has a great system, as do many other countries. I had nothing but good experiences with Japan's national health insurance, of which I was a beneficiary. But I was very taken aback by the requirement that doctors and nurses must be given expensive gifts to insure they devote the proper amount of attention to a terminal cancer patient.

[miyazaki]

31. Sounds like an illegal bribe. There is no requirement.

[metalbot]

36. That's VERY misleading

People making 50k/year are not paying 22% income tax in the US.

They'll get a $12k deduction which will drop all of their income to 12% or lower. If they aren't eligible for further tax credits, then their effective tax rate is going to be about 9.5% of the 50k income.

For CA, let's assume that USD = CAD, and not worry about the exchange rate for comparison purposes. The same 50k earner will get a $15k deductible, and then pays 15% against the rest, for a tax rate of about 10.5%. If you use the current exchange rate, then the effective taxation jumps to about 11.5%

(I'm not arguing at all against single payer, which I'm strongly in favor of).

[tiptonic]

14. So True

Having traveled quite a bit in my younger days, I am amazed at how poorly, our health care system measures up, to other countries. Recently had a friend, return to Germany, so her father could get quality care. Greed has taken over our country.

[Kaleva]

16. from a white person's perpective, one may say greed has taken over

But if one asks Native Americans, blacks, Latinos and other minorities, they would tell you greed built this nation.

[HUAJIAO]

25. And they would be 100% right, greed, cruelty, inhumane treatment of other human beings.

[joetheman]

17. We may be overlooking a huge difference in doing Japan.

The Japanese seem to want EVERY citizen to be healthy and safe and have access to affordable excellent healthcare.
Putting it simply, we, USA do not. We are divided about the welfare of all our citizens and all people for that matter. The GOP, the RW Trumpians who wield a lot of power over our governance or lack thereof, do not want ALL of us to healthy, wealthy, or wise. Thus, we can't and won't Japan.

[Pinback]

54. Very true.

For many Americans, achieving “success” would be a lot less fun if we didn’t have the “unworthy” living in poverty and misery.

What if everybody had enough? What if life itself wasn’t something that had to be purchased, over and over?

[Jetheels]

21. Yea but we're not anything like Japan, in population size and Japan has almost zero immigration.

[orangecrush]

22. Welcome to DU

Please explain the impact of immigration on our healthcare system.

[Duppers]

37. I'm guessing racism.

Racists don't want immigrants to have not only the same health care but other additional opportunities.

Just guessing, as I said.

[orangecrush]

42. Good guess.

[Polybius]

45. He could also mean diet

Being the country with the longest lift span has a lot to do with the food they eat there. Immigrants tend to favor the food that they were brought up with, which could impact the lifespan.

[Jetheels]

46. I don't know what the impact of immigration is on healthcare. There's different opinions.

Last edited Tue Mar 23, 2021, 12:49 AM - Edit history (1)

I was more pointing out how vastly different we are from Japan, in so many ways, all of which effect how a country is governed, and how lives are lived there. Immigration is one that sticks out to me as a glaring difference, possibly because of our borders, rather than the island country which is Japan, effecting population size and culture. Also, US has an image of the land of opportunity. The only people I know moving to Japan, temporarily, are those looking for work teaching ESL. Also, Japan being mostly Japanese people, their customs, ideas, values, etc remain more constant than a country like US. We have more new people coming every year from all facets of life, cultures, languages. The influx of these people will have an effect on how this country changes. Japan is not going to have that so much. Who knows what ideas they will bring, including healthcare. Another factor, Japanese people identify as part of a collective whereas Americans identify as individuals. I think this collective mindset has been a benefit in regards to the healthcare system Japan posses, whereas in the US it’s a pull yourself up by your bootstraps mindset if you want healthcare, education, etc. They are a we, we are a me. I don’t see this country coming together as a we, in fact it’s becoming more unhinged. I agree with the initial posters meme that the health insurance companies are out of control. Insurance rates go up every year and only the upper middle class and beyond can really afford health insurance, but I don’t understand the correlation of Japan has healthcare for all so why can’t we be like that. Land mass, gun culture, drugs, we couldn’t be more different than Japan. Thanks for welcome.

[ZZenith]

33. How many people live in Japan?

And how would scale change the figures?

[Wednesdays]

51. IIRC, Japan is about the size of California

with a population of 126 million.

[ZZenith]

55. You recall correctly.

[Hortensis]

24. We're headed that direction. But we're huge, we contain multitudes,

we're extremely diverse, which all present realities Japan has never had to somehow master.

We'll be great in our own combination of ways that work for us. If people are smart enough to say no to the insidious work to divide us and turn us on each other. United we accomplish all. Divided we fall.

[dchill]

26. We should Japan like a boss!

[Hoyt]

27. "Japanese costs are half of USA." I like to get a rough gauge by comparing registered nurse salaries

in Japan and USA to get a feel for the impact on healthcare providers.

In the USA, the average RN pay is just over $70,000. The average pay for Japanese nurses is roughly $46,000. You'll have to do your own research because there is no one source that gives these figures. But, there are a bunch of sources that taken together yield that results.

Point is, if we use Japanese nurse salaries as a proxy for healthcare costs in the two countries, we are not that far apart IF WE TAKE A CUT. If we go to say Medicare for All -- perhaps starting with a Public Option -- lots of folks here are going to take a big pay cut including docs, nurses, and just about everyone else in the system.

I think we have to do it, but the whining is going to be really painful and loud, and it's not all going to come from the fat cats.

[YoshidaYui]

32. Mochiron!

さて、何が私たちを止めているのですか？so what's stopping us? We must do our best.. ganbatte kudasai! faito!!!

[Ferrets are Cool]

34. This x 1000

[area51]

39. k&r n/t

[progressoid]

43. It's likely their life expectancy has more to do with genes and lifestyle than heathcare.

[dickthegrouch]

44. Having grown up in UK with its National Health System

I would wholeheartedly agree with dismantling the for-profit healthcare industry in favor of a single payer one. The difficulty lies in the logistics of achieving such a thing.
It can't be implemented overnight, a very detailed multi-year plan would be necessary.

[BobTheSubgenius]

47. I just watched a video presentation about US health care, and it's even worse than I thought.

And I already thought it was pretty damned bad.

[Aussie105]

48. Government run health system.

The government builds and runs the hospitals.
Doctors and nurses in hospitals are government employees.
Firm government control over the cost of medicines.
Profit taking by any sector of the public health system is strictly verboten.

Want better health care, your choice of specialist and hospital? Sure, there's private health insurance.
That's how it works in Australia and many other countries.

I won't number the blood tests, specimen cultures, scans and ultrasounds my doctor lined up for me over the last week (3 days, actually) but my out of pocket costs will be zero, or minimal.

I could be anywhere in the world, except America of course.

[LiberalLovinLug]

58. Its painful to watch the US stumble so badly with healthcare

As a Canadian, it pains me to watch our brothers and sisters down south be in such a mess with their health care. When it all seems so simple. Basically, its just using the largest pool of people possible in one country to sign on (through taxation) to spread the cost out so that when its your turn in the bucket, there is money to pay for your care too.
Like one giant private insurer except their are no private profiteering off of others misery. If there are savings, they are put back into the system to pay for medical costs, doctors, equipment...

I think its also a whole mindset that maybe one doesn't understand until one is fully participating in it, and that is the simply the acceptance that healthcare should be a right, not a privilege, especially for any richer advanced western country. Once it is deemed a right, good luck taking it away from people. There's a reason that even when a Conservative PM wins in Canada or in Australia, or England etc...the last thing they'd try and dismantle, no matter how much they may want to, is the public medical system.

[littlemissmartypants]

57. Or we could proofread and grammar. nt

[lindysalsagal]

59. Having been there personally, and knowing many japanese families, I can tell you

that americans are too selfish and lazy and greedy to effectively adopt the principles that japanese people use to thrive.

Japanese culture deliberately and consciously operates for the benefit of others, including ancestors and future civilians. People choose to put their needs and desires far down the list of priorities. Japanese people are reliable, intentional, purposeful, polite, and think long-term. They are seriously concerned with their reputation to strangers and the future.

It's not going to be a option to simply "decide" to run healthcare their way. We'd have to give up all the unhealthy habits that make us die young and overweight.