Logic has no impact on the gun issue. It boils down to simple love and hate.

[Stinky The Clown]

For what guns do, many people hate them. For (reasons not at all obvious to me, personally) many people love them.

Logic about guns is at best intellectual masturbation. Positions have hardened on both sides.

I wish I knew a way forward.

I do not.

[TreasonousBastard]

1. There is none. Guns have become a religion, with various sides refusing to see the others.

[sanatanadharma]

6. True! The religion of guns has...

True!
The religion of guns has a God, The Gun.
The religion of guns has a scripture, The 2nd amendment.
The religion of guns has priests, The NRA.
The religion of guns has rituals, Target shooting, hunting, buying, selling, collecting, killing.
And the religion of guns has apologists.

[RockRaven]

2. It's like QAnon or fundamentalist religion or flat earth stuff -- it fills an emotional/psychologica

need, and that need is not met by facts/data or logic so they are irrelevant.

[Redleg]

3. I agree with part of what you said

Positions have indeed hardened on both sides. I still think there is a sizeable middle chunk, including some gun owners, who would like to see better laws. Background checks and closing the gunshow loophole are very popular among voters. Limiting military style weapons is fairly popular.

I am an owner of several guns, some of which I used for hunting (I no longer hunt). Others I use for target practice. I don't carry a gun in public for self-defense and leave my guns locked away at home. On occasion I will take a gun on a road trip if we are going a long distance, though I haven't done that in quite a while.

The problem with some of these gun-humpers with their AR-15 style weapons is that they actually fantasize about the day they will get to use them, perhaps in the upcoming "race wars," against corrupt government officials, against "terrorists," and in case of a Red Dawn scenario.

In my opinion, nobody needs a military style rifle for self-defense. The damage that these weapons do, compared to a regular handgun bullet, is enormous. They have higher capacity magazines and in some instances, can defeat body armor. Cops shouldn't want people to carry these around either.

[Dial H For Hero]

4. A couple of corrections:

Yes, a 5.56x45 round does much more damage than an average handgun. But as centerfire rifle cartridges go, it's actually not that powerful at rougly 1200 ft-lbs. of energy. Your great-great-grandfather's .30-30 has almost twice that. A big game rilfe such as a .30-06 has more than twice that much.

As for defeating body armor, the soft body armor typically worn by law enforcement can be defeated by virtually any centerfire rifle.

[Redleg]

10. What have you corrected me on?

I was comparing the .223 (or 5.56x45 NATO) to handguns. I never mentioned other centerfire rifles. Are you saying that banning these weapons of war would have no impact on the death toll because the killers will just switch to their hunting rifles?

[Dial H For Hero]

14. You listed three reasons why AR-15's (and rifles like them) should be banned.

Two of the reasons (armor penetration and stopping power) apply to virtually any hunting rifle. Magazine capacity is a separate issue, of course. Are you arguing that all semiautomatic centerfire rifles should be outlawed? I would point out that there are "featureless" (no pistol grip, collapsing stock, etc.) rifles that are not considered to be "assault weapons" by law, yet they can use standard AR-15 magazines.

[fescuerescue]

8. Any rifle can defeat body armor

None more so than a hunting rifle.

[Redleg]

11. Most

What point are you trying to make? We shouldn't ban military style weapons because hunting rifles can also defeat body armor?

[fescuerescue]

19. My point is that any rifle can defeat body armor

Hunting rifles especially.

Well almost all.

[Bucky]

5. It's definitely an identity issue with these folks. They can't be reading with

Body counts and crime rates mean nothing to these people. This is about their identity as Republican conservatives. it's in direct opposition to their identity as Americans since it's American lives they refuse to help protect and it's American laws they will resist once stronger gun control passes.

You can't reason with people like this. Their tribal. All you can do is outvote them.

[krispos42]

13. I know, right?

Even though handguns are used to murder 19x more people than rifles annually, they STILL respond to a mass shooting with a ban on certain types of rifles!

Crazy, right?

[hunter]

7. Suppose it's brain damage caused by lead poisoning, smokeless powder fumes, and small concussions...

Does that change anything?

I actually think it's a problem like racism, and often a comorbidity of racism.

If we confront it directly we can stop its spread.

[harumph]

9. I think what gets lost in this is the fact

that there are many democrats that own guns - whether rifles or handguns who are
responsible owners (gun safes, etc..). These aren't the crowd fetishizing the guns and most
democratic gun owners are for more regulation within reason. OTOH, most republican gun owners
are not for any type of regulation and in fact want to expand "gun rights."

[hunter]

17. There's a difference between owning a gun and loving guns.

Reasonable people don't go nuts whenever someone proposes regulations that would reduce gun violence.

Hell, gun lovers freak out whenever government money is used to simply study gun violence.

Personally, I'm a gun abolitionist just as some people were slavery abolitionists. I think gun ownership and usage should be severely restricted. Certain kinds of hunting are a reasonable use. Hollywood cosplay "self defense" fantasies are not a reasonable use. I don't even trust most cops to use guns wisely or responsibly. I've seen them shoot people I wouldn't have shot.

I can say "the second amendment is bullshit," or that gun fetishes are disgusting, and I frequently do, but I do not personally write platforms or create policy for the Democratic Party.

[SYFROYH]

12. Aren't you the absolutist who wants to ban all guns?

[BannonsLiver]

15. Yeah, we have some gun fanatics here so you know it's worse in the outside world

Personally I’d boot every last one of their obfuscating asses but unfortunately not my call.

[SYFROYH]

18. There are NRA Democrats.

[jalan48]

16. A form of fetishism for some. When they say they love their guns they literally mean it.

[Cosmocat]

20. Its about intimidation

Figured that out in when I was still in college, 30 years ago.

The rest of it is the pretense that they need to convince the media and the "middle" 1/3, but end of the day it is about the threat of violence against US that drives it.

[maxsolomon]

21. Big majorities of Americans agree on small-fix issues like background checks.

It boils down to politician's fear of the gun lobby.

It boils down to more than that, actually. Fear, identity, defiance, imprecise & archaic language written by slaveholders, gerrymanding. It's a toxic soup.