One of the most sobering things I've heard in a while was when Biden...

[LAS14]

... described his conversation with Xi Jinping and reported that Xi believed that countries need to be led by autocracies rather than democracies because modern societies are too complex to depend on democratic rule. I have no idea what this meant about Xi's true motivations, but it does raise the specter of democracy being under assault for rational reasons, rather than from mere power mad individuals. I have to say that given what's happened in our country, with Trump, and now the lock step voter suppression initiatives on the part of the GOP, I've been wondering about the viability of democracy. Can we create an educated enough populace to withstand modern complexity? Or will the majority tumble into simplistic, cultist thinking?

[lagomorph777]

1. Wrong. Completely wrong.

No, there is no rational basis to dump democracy.

We got saddled with Trump because our "democracy" has very serious un-democratic defects. The Electoral College, Gerrymandering, voter suppression... All these demand Constitutional or legal remedies to INCREASE democracy. The last thing any people need is a dictator.

[bucolic_frolic]

2. Voters' knowledge and focus are too scattered. No longer an informed electorate.

It's more a tabulation of private concerns now. Much less theoretical than in the days of Tom Paine's Common Sense.

[ancianita]

20. No longer? Are we writing off 81+ million votes? And the 91 million who didn't but still might?

[genxlib]

3. Of course the autocrats would say that

Just as they are using every tool in their tool kit to undermine the Democracies they question.

[bullimiami]

4. So happens that a Xi is full of shit. They've turned China into an Oligarchy.

Powerful men grabbing power and wealth for themselves and cronies with impunity.
Only suffering consequences of internal power struggles.

Harder to do in a Democratic system.

[Midnight Writer]

5. When people are denied a voice, they eventually rise up.

Look at everything from the Fall of Rome to the Russian Revolution to the death of Colonialism, not to mention our own Revolution.

It may take decades, even centuries, but monarchies, dictatorships, oligarchies, empires always fall.

[Hekate]

6. That, to me, was the most interesting part of Biden's press conference. Was hoping someone...

...would discuss it and expand on it on the tv-machine, but no luck so far.

Dear DUers, you had to have been actually listening to what President Biden said, all the way through. He is extremely well-grounded in this bit of foreign policy, and showed it.

* Joe said that as VP he personally spent more hours with Xi than any other leader in the world did. Talking. Listening. He called Xi on his first day as POTUS and talked for 2 hours.

* “He doesn’t have a single small-d democratic bone in his body, but” he has fully-rational plans for his country that include making them the best in the world in education, science, health, infrastructure, acquisition of resources, and on and on. They have budgeted for this. They are spending the money. (We, the US, are not spending the money, but Biden intends that we should.)

* And for 4 years while Trump was posturing, yipping, trying to alternately start a nuclear war with North Korea and write love letters to their dictator — China just went on with its plans. They aren’t Communist any more — they ditched that. They are fully autocratic.

* The great question of the 21st century is this: will Democracy survive, or will Autocracy prevail? Pointing to one of the reporters, Biden said: “When your children or grandchildren are writing their PhD dissertations,” this is what it will be about.

* Autocracy is ascendant across the world — look around you, he said. China, Russia, and others. In their rational opinion (which Biden does not share, and why do I even feel I need to point that out) they have concluded that Democracy is worn-out and is incapable of leading nations in the 21st century. That’s the basis of their actions.

I wish someone would post that part of the press conference, because imo it was gold. Joe had a lot more to say, but stopped. I would love to see him in a foreign policy roundtable.

[PatSeg]

7. Thank you

That really was unexpected and I am surprised that no one on TV has focused on it.

[myohmy2]

8. " Autocracy is ascendant across the world "

...that's because it appears to work and work efficiently...

...while we go around in circles arguing and disagreeing on everything, our cities are crumbling, our infrastructure is old and decaying, our rotten political system is dysfunctional and our crazy shoot'em-up, I'll kill you with my freedom society, is crumbling and dying from within...

...can you imagine in China (or any other modern country) one inconsequential third-rate elected asshole could stop what 90% of the country wants and needs to do?...what modern sane country would tolerate that?

...we'd better get real and face the facts...if we don't, we'll find ourselves on the ash-Heep of history...

...we'd better get real, but I know we won't...

[betsuni]

14. Thank you.

Ever since I heard that a Winnie the Pooh movie was banned in China because people noticed the strong resemblance between Xi and the character, every time I see Xi I see Winnie the Pooh. A grumpy Winnie the Pooh. He makes me nervous.

[ancianita]

21. Agree. I saw the whole thing and was struck by how Biden's 2-hr talk with Xi made me know

how deeply he understands the stakes between autocracy and democracy.

The problem with democracy is its inconsistency in spending priorities that stabilize education, civil rights, national infrastructure, cybersecurity, energy distribution, climate problems (migration and environmental degradation), and government's relationship with corporate capitalism.

I don't want to fear that this next four years is our last chance to codify and fund these in ways that can't be undone, but I do.

[moondust]

9. Ask the Soviet Union

how one-party (totalitarian) centralization works in a complex society. It can work in a simple agricultural economy that requires only limited decision-making and management, but as things grow more complex over time it bogs down. Centralized political bureaucrats sometimes end up calling the shots on things of which they know little or nothing. I believe that was a major reason the USSR didn't survive: life in the 1970s and 80s was growing increasingly complex and became too much for Moscow to centrally manage. That and lack of choices in consumer goods.

China has somehow managed to decentralize (politically loyal) management enough to survive (so far) in a complex world, but if people there don't like the way things are going they don't have the option of changing course.

Xi is full of it. Modern societies are too complex for autocratic rule that requires political loyalty at all levels.

[taxi]

10. The latter. nt

[ymetca]

11. What do autocrats fear most?

Solidarity.

Hence the ceaseless attacks on the media, labor, the U.N., minorities, etc., etc., etc. Divide and conquer. A bunch of squabbling nation-states is by design. Flag-waving nationalism is a tool of oppression, not solidarity amongst all peoples of this planet.

[meadowlander]

12. There's always a mix of technical and ethical/values decision making.

You can get experts to advise on the technical issues but you need society to weigh in on values.

Take coastal adaptation to sea level rise. There are usually hard engineering "solutions" but they could cost billions of dollars and need to keep being updated every twenty years or so until they stop working. And alternatively there are softer social "solutions" like switching to electric cars and urban intensification around centres, etc. which are harder to implement because they require buy in from the majority of the population. Or you have managed retreat where you have to deal with equity issues and the social consequences of displacing people.

You can't get buy in for your solution if you don't bring people along on that journey and part of that is giving them a say in what that adaptation process looks like. Otherwise you're just creating new problems (i.e. by forceably shifting people into what will become slums in the future).

So yes, problems are getting more complex but you can't solve them without reference to society's values and aspirations and you can only really make space to find out what those are through democracy.

You're not asking people "how should this seawall be designed?" or "what's a substitute coolant for fridges?" You're asking "do you want to pay for this now or do you want your kids to pay ten times as much later?" "Do you want to keep these 50 houses here even if this endangered species goes extinct when you build the seawall?" "Who should have to bear the cost of moving these houses that are about to become uninhabitable due to the tiny but incremental actions of everyone else?"

Those are values questions, not technical questions.

The problem in the US isn't that people aren't educated enough in the technical issues. You can get experts for that. It's that *way* too many people aren't educated in civic values and collaborative decision making and they elect people who don't understand the purpose of government and what it can do.

[nolabear]

13. Not rational, a rationalization.

Autocrats typically convince themselves and others that something is the only way when in reality it’s their chosen way. Other ways might be messier, harder to hold onto, a massive amount of work, and in need of creative solutions. But they hold the most promise for individuals, if, as the man said, you can hold onto it.

[Irish_Dem]

15. Xi Jinping raises a legitimate question about democracy.

Yes China is an evil empire, but the Chinese government can make vast societal change quite quickly for the good of the country. And respond instantly in case of an emergency. If they can face the truth and not get caught up in their
refusal to face unpleasant realities.

A democracy is dependent upon an honest, moral and educated populace which can elect leaders of the same ilk.
American voters consist of many racist, ignorant or immoral people. And we have quite a few ignorant and sociopathic leaders who work for themselves, not the country.

The answer would see to be more education in this country. What does it mean to be a responsible citizen.
What is the purpose of government, how does government work, etc.

[LAS14]

16. I always come back to education, too. And it drives me to despair. nt

[Irish_Dem]

17. We should especially target the south and northern rural school systems.

And try to raise the competency level.

[LAS14]

18. I saw here on DU a while ago that Texas has a law prohibiting the teaching of critical thinking in..

..public schools. I don't know if that's true or not, but I often wonder how teachers handle such things as internet literacy when they go home to parents who tell them that NewsMax is their "trusted news source."

[Irish_Dem]

19. The GOP benefits from low education voters. Voters with critical thinking skills are a liability.

I hope teachers would introduce students to a variety of legit news sources.
That way the kids become smarter than the parents.

[misanthrope]

23. In the same vein, private enterprise benefits from low information consumers

They are easier to manipulate into emptying their pockets.

[Irish_Dem]

27. Good point. Corporate/political goals are the same.

[Hortensis]

22. Xi's his own compelling argument against his argument.

I'll take my judgement over that of a genocidal, enslaving autocrat, thank you.

[Hekate]

24. Joe's entire life shows he is committed 100% to our form of government & our ideals...

By the same token, it’s important to distinguish one world leader from another. Some of them really are nuts — our own departed orange potus, for instance. He was not intelligent, nor was he able to formulate and carry out long-term goals, and he was in no sense rational, as far as anyone could tell. He was born with money and developed a preternatural gift for selling snake-oil — that’s it.

However, if your opponent is intelligent, able to rationally formulate long-term plans and carry them out, making changes as necessary — it is wise to take note of what their plans are, no matter how offensive or vile you think they are. (I consider the cultural genocide of the Tibetans and Uighurs to be pretty vile. Goodbye, Hong Kong as we knew it, as well.)

Joe is telling us that Xi is not crazy, and that Americans and our journalists should not make the mistake of believing that. He is a formidable opponent that we need to understand to counter.

[Hortensis]

25. Agree. And Joe is an argument for democracy. What a coincidence. :)

‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947

[JHB]

26. So when was China's democratic age? Y'know, before whatever he thinks of as "modern".

Despots will always justify their rule. It's how they maintain power.