Have you ever spanked your child (or any child under your care/supervision)?

[NurseJackie]

Have you ever spanked your child (or any child under your care/supervision)? For the purpose of this poll, please use the M-W definition shown below which defines "to spank" as striking the buttocks with an open hand. (Not a belt, not a paddle, not a rod, not a switch, not a cane, not anywhere other than the buttocks.)

NOTE: I understand that binary yes/no polls can be challenging because there are many circumstances that can go along with various yes or no answers. So, please choose the best answer and add a comment if you need to explain or clarify.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spank

Definition of spank
(transitive verb)

: to strike especially on the buttocks with the open hand

POLL QUESTION: Have you ever spanked your child (or any child under your care/supervision)?

46 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	22 (48%)
	No
	24 (52%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[obamanut2012]

1. No -- assault is assault

If it's illegal to do to an adult, it should be illegal to do to a child. It is disgusting it's so okay in the US.

I know lots of folks on DU LOVE spanking kids and thinks it's A-OK (it didn't hurt me! I turned out fine! It's just a pop!), and think they know better than experts who ALL agree (except for wingnuts) it is damaging to a child. And, I am not responding to any of you, because I do not agree with physical and mental abuse of a child.

[NurseJackie]

5. Ridiculous.

I know lots of folks on DU LOVE spanking kids

Ridiculous. What an absurd thing to say!

Having spanked a child, or approving of the practice does not mean that someone "LOVES spanking kids". GMAFB! I spanked my own children, and I approve of it... but I certainly didn't LOVE it, or LOVE doing it.

[USALiberal]

175. LOL, ok! nt

[BlueLucy]

2. No!

It's barbaric.

[Goodheart]

3. I did once. He ran into the street.

And I smacked him, more out of shock than anything. So I had to cover: "If you think that hurts just imagine what a truck running over you would feel like."

Otherwise, I am firmly OPPOSED to spanking.

At what age does assault become criminal? Seems arbitrary to me.

[Freddie]

7. That is the ONLY reason to ever strike a child

An instinctual reaction to them about to do something dangerous.

[Nay]

92. Same for me. He rode his bike down a hill, ran through an intersection in front of a car.

I was so upset that I whacked him on the butt, threw his bike up against a wall.

Many blessings on the head of the woman driver who saw him coming and slowed down. I love her to this day.

[NurseJackie]

4. I've spanked my children.

[Hekate]

168. See my post 167

[Demsrule86]

211. I have too...my oldest one...rarely. Mostly if something dangerous was done like running into

the street or some such thing. The youngers ones I can remember one time slapping my sons had when he was really bad and I was taking away his computer he was holding his door shut.

[betsuni]

6. I don't have children, have no problem with a spank on the butt.

When I was little, my mother read child-rearing books encouraging corporal punishment. My older brother was a sociopathic Republican from birth and he was the one doing the bad things, but she had a "both sides" approach. She made my father whip me with a leather belt on my bare ass whenever my brother did anything bad because they were idiots and believed him when he said it was my idea. That was beating. There were welts. Spanking? Fine.

[NurseJackie]

8. I agree. Leaving welts is a beating. The *pop* and sting of an open hand...

... and the shock/embarrassment was an excellent tool in instantly getting attention and reinforcing the idea of consequences of misbehaving or engaging in reckless/dangerous activities. It's pure fantasy to believe that a toddler can be reasoned-with or negotiated-with. A pop on the rear end as a consequence of reaching into the kitchen knife drawer or playing with the gas stove knobs has a much more meaningful effect compared to "no-no, good little boys don't do that in this house, now go stand in the corner and think about what you did and when that's over I'll give you a cookie."

I'd rather my child cry tears of embarrassment than tears from having their finger stitched back on (or whatever the danger may have been.)

[Goodheart]

9. At what age is it no longer acceptable to spank somebody?

[NurseJackie]

13. Ohhh, I'd say... probably about the time that they're old enough to

At what age is it no longer acceptable to spank somebody?

Ohhh, I'd say... probably about the time that they're old enough to move out of the house and live on their own.

How's that?

[Goodheart]

18. So, you're OK with spanking a 21 year old student?

[NurseJackie]

24. Sure. If the situation calls for it. Absolutely.

[Goodheart]

44. You'll be arrested.

[NurseJackie]

155. Sure. Whatever. Look how scared I am...

[Demsrule86]

212. when they are taller than you...hehe. I well remember my mother chasing my brother

up the stairs when he was on leave from the service...I don't remember what he did but she had her wooden spoon...he was running too...all six foot four of him...she was five two...

[betsuni]

12. Seriously, a pop on a fully-clothed butt is "assault"?

Nope. Even though I had welts on my ass from beatings as a little kid, I'm a normal person, not that big of a deal. I guess it was the generation after mine blaming everything on dysfunctional families. Now they blame everything on everyone, they're a victim of this or that.

[NurseJackie]

15. I blame the "everyone gets a trophy" philosophy of Youth Soccer...

... no scoring, no winners, no losers, no rules, no consequences. Do your own thing and get rewarded for just showing up.

Now they blame everything on everyone, they're a victim of this or that.

I have a feeling that many agree with your observations. I know that I do.

[Demsrule86]

213. That is ridiculous...and if social service gets involved they put them in homes that do worse too...

like everything it has been taken to far.

[tavernier]

10. I was beaten. My father had a terrible temper.

Perhaps a gentle spanking to send a message is appropriate, I don’t know. I feared my parents because of spankings, and I didn’t want that kind of relationship with my kids.

[Amishman]

11. Yes, children respond differently to some kinds of punishment.

Time-outs, lost privileges, and other recommended punishments do not work well for some children. Reward based behavior shaping is difficult when they are too young to really respond to delayed gratification.

My nephew is one such child. He has an incredible imagination, and is perfectly capable of entertaining himself with it alone when he has to. This limits the effectiveness of many punishments.

Years ago when I watched him, I was cautioned by my sister that he was in a phase where he would deliberately act up when he was told he had to wait for something. In particular he would run off, grab things, and try to flush them down the toilet. Spanking was their last resort for such major problems. They had recently stopped this behavior at home with a few spankings but she wouldn't be surprised if he tried it with me.

She was right. When making his lunch he wanted it now. When told it wasn't done cooking, he ran upstairs. He grabbed the mouse from my computer, tossed it in the toilet, and flushed.(too big to go down but the water did ruin it)

I followed my sister's instructions. I picked him up and gave him a single stinging slap to his bottom. I told him that his mommy told me he knows better, and that this is the punishment for trying to flush things down the toilet. He didn't try that again the remainder of the weekend he was with me.

One thing I will say, is spanking should not leave a bruise or injury. That is beating and completely unacceptable.

[NurseJackie]

16. Thanks very much for your thoughtful reply.

[kickitup]

23. My 4 year old grandson acts like your nephew and a "swat" from "Poppy" is the only thing that works.

He is very smart and very active. He can argue until he's blue in the face and it always starts with him not getting his way. His new thing is spitting at me when I don't give him my full attention (or, in other words, when he has to wait for me to play). He gets going and won't stop and what we have found is if my husband swats his butt a few times, he settles down for the rest of the visit and has a glorious time.

We love for him to stay with us, but we have made it very clear to him that at Gram and Poppy's house, he doesn't get to say hateful things and spit and so forth. It simply isn't tolerated and time out doesn't do anything except up the ante on what hateful thing comes out of his mouth.

[Amishman]

29. Yes, definite similarities to my nephew

He was almost four when the toilet incident I described happened, and he did go through a spitting phase too!

Definitely seems that boys are much more likely to be the type that doesn't respond as well to other forms of punishment.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

88. "We can't have a good visit until my husband strikes my smart, active grandson a few times."

[ret5hd]

14. Reminds me of an old Onion headline:

Child Abuse: How Much Is Too Much?

[J Magarac]

17. A child, no. Of course not. But ...

... there's a certain misbehaving monkey that must be spanked.

[3Hotdogs]

19. I'm not for spanking. Then, there are my daughter and step-daughter.

Their response to poor behavior: If you don't stop ----- , I'm going to tell you, "Stop doing it," again.

Result, behavior in question persists until, "Ok. Now, we're going home because you don't behave."



(Actually, they did behave.)

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. If you manage employees, have you ever spanked them?

[Hugin]

21. No...

I was randomly physically abused by a family member when I was young. So, violence is a trigger for me.

Besides, I've learned reward is a better mechanism of guidance for most children and what they really want is attention when they act up. Unless they are trying to let you know there's something wrong and as an adult, it's up to you to figure out what the problem is. I don't make the mistake of treating them as adults. They aren't.

I could see a need for it in rare cases. However, I've never encountered such a situation.

[George II]

22. I can't say, I've never had any children and was never a babysitter. But...

....some are confusing "spanking" with "beating" - there a clear difference between the two.

Maybe if some children were "spanked" more when they act up there would be less trouble in school and elsewhere. Unfortunately these days parents don't discipline their children but throw them on the school bus and expect their teachers to discipline them and teach them how to act in society.

We (all six of us) weren't spanked regularly, but when we misbehaved sometimes we were spanked. And my parents raised six successful, decent, compassionate adult.

[NurseJackie]

26. Confusion, indeed.

....some are confusing "spanking" with "beating" - there a clear difference between the two.

Confusion, indeed. Thanks very much for sharing your observations and experiences.

[Humanist_Activist]

27. Psychologically, to the victim, there is very little difference between the two and the research...

bears this out.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10027952859

I don't understand people advocating child abuse.

[NurseJackie]

34. Ridiculous. --- Nobody is doing that.

I don't understand people advocating child abuse.

Ridiculous. --- Nobody is doing that. What's also ridiculous is labeling it "child abuse". In the end, all this hand-wringing makes it difficult for people to take seriously those rational individuals who are trying to create awareness and prevent ACTUAL child abuse.

[Humanist_Activist]

37. What's the difference? If you leave a mark? You are the one who is putting an arbitrary line...

between spanking and child abuse. I'm saying the research doesn't delineate such a difference. You can call it ridiculous, but only one of us is being ridiculous here because only one of us is denying the current, best available, research.

[NurseJackie]

41. Again, ridiculous.

But please note, when I say "ridiculous" I'm only referring to the premise/argument being made that spanking is "child abuse". (In contrast, I have not accused you personally of BEING ridiculous.)

[Humanist_Activist]

45. Again, what's the difference? n/t

[George II]

35. Looks like the Universities of Texas and Michigan got nice hefty grants from the government....

FIFTY years of research on spanking by "experts"? What constitutes a "spanking expert"?

Well, we didn't need an expensive study - I have years of first-hand, real-life "research" on six children, we all turned out normal, well-adjusted, decent, successful members of society.

[Humanist_Activist]

38. Well, anti-intellectual and science attitudes aren't exclusive to the right, that's for sure.

ON EDIT: You are also displaying survivor bias here.

[George II]

49. I don't even know what any of that means. I think there's an intended insult in there but whatever.

[Humanist_Activist]

53. Uhm, this response is unsurprising to me, and a little sad. n/t

[jimfields33]

40. I'd love to see a study on how discipline was administered in the homes

of mass murderers. It’d be interesting to see which technique parents used. To me that’s the only way to get to the bottom of disciplining a child.

[Humanist_Activist]

42. I'm actually sure its all over the place, given the beliefs of some, I'm sure they were raised in

"strict" households, and for others there is a wide range of beliefs actions and psychological issues that lead to them deciding to mass murder people.

[jimfields33]

101. You are probably right.

I guess it would be impossible for each to be raised in the same discipline type house. Plus it’d be also impossible to get exact finding due to two siblings in same family where one is a bad seed and the other a functioning person in society. Very complex.

[Silent3]

154. Because people don't all use the definitions you use, read the same studies, etc...

I'm actually not making this post to take a stand one way or another about spanking. I wish to comment on your obnoxious style of argument.

The surest way NOT to communicate is to decide that you decide all of the terms of the debate, all of the definitions of the words involved.

You know damned well that most people who advocate spanking are not, at least in their own minds, "advocating child abuse". You may think that no distinction exists between spanking and child abuse, but surely you realize that, no matter how well that research you link to holds up, it's not like it has been disseminated to the entire world, adopted as absolute truth by all people, and therefore anyone advocating spanking "knows" spanking can't be seen as anything but child abuse.

It's perfectly easy to understand why someone who doesn't view spanking as child abuse could advocate one without advocating the other. I think you know this, so why feign otherwise?

[Humanist_Activist]

157. What's obnoxious about it?

I'm truly puzzled here, its more exasperation than anything else, we have an OP who doesn't acknowledge reality, or even a common definition of words, like trying to differentiate between "hitting" and "spanking" one is the form of the other, I'm not making this up, its in the GD dictionary.

I can see how those who advocate for spanking may think they aren't advocating for child abuse, but the reality of the situation is that harmful and non-productive outcomes are more likely when you spank than when you don't. I'm not sure how my style of argument is obnoxious yet hers is not.

[smirkymonkey]

163. +1000

[Silent3]

179. Whether it's in the dictionary or not, or if it puzzles you or not...

...it's pretty common in American culture to consider spanking and hitting very different things. I can't see how you would have failed to notice something so very ordinary, even if you are dismayed by it.

[tonedevil]

187. It's common in American culture...

to consider non-white people inferior. Perhaps American culture isn't all that good.

[Silent3]

193. There is a lot about our culture that sucks

But it’s not an effective argument against, as in your example, bigotry, to argue as if the bigots must already understand the world as you do, or as if you were born yesterday and had never heard of this bigotry thing before.

[Humanist_Activist]

203. Not where and when I grew up. There never was a definitional difference.

There were and are rationalizations for justifying spanking of course, but the words were used interchangeably by most people I know, including those who spank their kids. Spanking is hitting someone on their bottom.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. What's the difference between spanking and hitting?

And my parents raised six successful, decent, compassionate adults.

You just said more parents should hit their kids. How is that compassionate?

[George II]

51. I'm sure you can point me to where I said "more parents should hit their kids", right?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

55. I call it like I see it.

Maybe if some children were "spanked" more when they act up there would be less trouble in school and elsewhere.

[George II]

62. In that case maybe you can answer your own question:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15276733

What's the difference between spanking and hitting?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

65. There isn't one beyond the shape of a hand.

The message is the same: Violence and power win.

[pnwmom]

181. You didn't. You preferred to use the euphemism, but spanking is hitting. n/t

[pnwmom]

180. Spanking is a euphemism for hitting. The purpose is to punish with pain.

You and your siblings turned out okay despite it, not because of it.

Your childhood must have been good on balance, despite this ill-advised practice of your parents.

[Humanist_Activist]

25. Time to repost this, not only is spanking wrong, it doesn't work.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/10027952859

[NurseJackie]

28. It works perfectly fine.

[Humanist_Activist]

31. I link to 50 year meta analysis by mental health and child development professionals, and you...

have your opinion, do you have any evidence to back up your assertion?

[NurseJackie]

36. LOL! Myself and my children.

do you have any evidence to back up your assertion?

Myself and my children. I know what I know. Disprove THAT with your "meta analysis".

[Humanist_Activist]

39. That's anecdotal, do you have any actual evidence? n/t

[NurseJackie]

43. That's all the evidence I need.

[Humanist_Activist]

47. You sound like an anti-vaxxer, just saying. n/t

[NurseJackie]

52. I have not attacked you, Humanist_Activist. Why attack me?

You sound like an anti-vaxxer, just saying. n/t

Why engage in name-calling? I have not attacked you, Humanist_Activist. Why attack me?

[Humanist_Activist]

56. I'm saying what you sound like an anti-science advocate, its not a personal attack...

but an observation. You are claiming your anecdotal experience is more accurate than a medical meta-study, for a nurse to say so is rather concerning.

If you have concerns about the study itself or how it was conducted, then come out with substantive criticism, with citations.

[NurseJackie]

58. Yes it is.

its not a personal attack...

Yes it is.

You are claiming your anecdotal experience is more accurate than a medical meta-study, for a nurse to say so is rather concerning.

LOL! Then "concerned" you'll remain. I'll not be bullied or insulted.

If you have concerns about the study itself or how it was conducted, then come out with substantive criticism, with citations.

[Humanist_Activist]

63. You display obvious survivor bias in your argumentation. You can at least try.

Just saying "Nuh-uh" isn't an argument and insults everyone's intelligence.

[NurseJackie]

68. That insult was hurled at with George II. It won't work with me either.

You display obvious survivor bias in your argumentation.

That insult was hurled at with George II. It won't work with me either.

[Humanist_Activist]

71. Doesn't make it any less accurate an observation though.

Look, unlike you, apparently, I can change my mind when displayed with contravening evidence of my beliefs, or at least attempt some self-reflection. All you are doing is not being constructive and being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, in addition to claiming insults where none exist.

I'm trying to encourage you to at least use google and see if there is any contradictory evidence or studies to the one I linked to. There's no need to be defensive about this.

[TwilightZone]

66. This thread is curious.

And, I must say, rather depressing. I wouldn't previously have thought "I hit my kids and they turned out fine" or "my parents hit me and look how I turned out" would be declared as "evidence" on DU, but here we are.

[kcr]

78. It's pure hypocrisy

Some of the same people who will smugly attack other woo will firmly stick to their anti-science, pro-violence spanking stance.

[Humanist_Activist]

108. Yes, but mostly its cognitive dissonance, when its someone's preferred belief, they really

don't want to entertain any evidence that contradicts said beliefs. Encountered the same on this board about gun control and gun violence. The arguments are identical there as well, just deny, deny, deny.

[Silent3]

178. I don't have children, and have avoided needing to supervise any either...

...for more than just a few moments.

I tend to believe what I've heard so far about spanking being ineffective and counterproductive. But I've also had occasion to watch children horribly misbehave while parents either ignore their misbehavior, or very ineffectively chastise them.

Even if it's not specifically spanking, how would you reign in a child who absolutely refuses to cooperate, who throws a fit, maybe starts breaking things, is perhaps hurting another person or a pet, is doing something dangerous and won't stop, etc? It seems at some point physically restraining or forcibly moving a child can become necessary, even if you aren't spanking or otherwise striking them.

[tonedevil]

185. Much like I do with any human...

I talk to them and try to understand why they have made the decisions they have made that brought us here. I would explain why the behavior is considered a problem and help explore alternatives. To the extent possible I would ask the child to tell me what they learned from our talk and secure a promise to do better.
It may be easier to just smack the kid and expect them to figure out why that happened. I just think it makes you a complete asshole.

[Silent3]

194. There are ages where such discussion won't make much sense...

...situations where time is of the essence, and ongoing misbehavior must be stopped.

Would you allow a child to rip up a neighbor’s garden, and keep ripping it up while you calmly discussed the implications of the child’s actions, or would you forcibly pull the child away?

If you would forcibly pull the child away, and the child resists by punching or kicking or biting, what would be next?

Tearing up a garden is a merely a mild example of harmful or destructive actions where intervention might be necessary.

[tonedevil]

197. Do you think picking up...

a child who is not behaving appropriately is somehow the same as spanking them? You take them out of the situation and explain what went wrong. To the greatest extent you get the child to tell you what they will do differently in the future.

[George II]

109. And my parents and their six children. I have first hand proof, and it only took about 15 years....

...for each of us, not 50 years in a University.

[Humanist_Activist]

114. Why is it this easy for me? No seriously, just stop, you aren't really helping your case here.

Personal anecdotes are useless unless backed up by evidence and some type of statistical analysis, on top of that, your attempt at mischaracterizing this meta-analysis as just "50 years in a University" is rather illuminating.

[George II]

124. I don't have a "case" here. But I we were to look at the evolution of child behavior, children....

....were a lot better behaved and well adjusted back before some discipline by parents was frowned upon or parents became too busy to raise their own children.

As for the 50 year study, what renders some if not most of that irrelevant is just that - it transpired over 50 years. Think about what society was like in 1970 vs. what it was like in 1990, or 2010, and now in 2021.

Family like and child upbringing was entirely different at the beginning of that 50-year period than what it was/is like 50 years later. Family life and parenting today is nothing like it was 50 years ago, so what is the validity of what was discovered in 1970 to family life in 2021? Little or none.

[Humanist_Activist]

128. Where is your evidence that kids today are less well adjusted than "back then"...

I'm mean, seriously, that's like the opposite of reality.

[Humanist_Activist]

132. I mean, seriously, I come with receipts....

https://news.uci.edu/2016/09/28/todays-parents-spend-more-time-with-their-kids-than-moms-and-dads-did-50-years-ago/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/kids-today-are-actually-more-patient-than-kids-50-years-ago-1531329924

https://www.mdedge.com/pediatrics/article/106060/mental-health/behavior-problems-youth-are-things-worse-today-past?sso=true

https://www.vox.com/a/teens

And if you want something anecdotal, when I started high school back in the early 1990s, all of our restrooms billowed out smoke like someone put a goddamned fog machine in them, every effing day. It was obviously against the rules to smoke, but nearly a third of the school smoked regularly, hell I was a late bloomer, didn't start smoking until I was about 17 and getting them through the school "black market" until I became a senior and did my own hustle. I've quit since them, but that's just one example, but unlike yours, I can back mine up with data.

[NurseJackie]

115. Your experiences mirror mine.

I can tell you that I blame this fad of "over-permissiveness" and "everyone gets a trophy" on a lot of the selfish and me-me-me attitudes we see in today's youth and young-adults. We've raised an overindulged generation raised by helicopter parents and which is lacking in resilience.

[Humanist_Activist]

117. And there it is, generational myths wrapped up in other myths...

I mean, damn, at least hide your power level here. Where is your evidence for ANY of these assertions you just made?

[George II]

135. I've worked very closely with our local Board of Education over the year, and some of the things....

....they and the schools have to deal with from parents is mind-boggling. A lot of parents just don't want to be bothered raising their own children.

[NurseJackie]

138. Link?

[George II]

146. Actually I can do better than that. Here are THREE links!

[NurseJackie]

148. I have one...

[USALiberal]

177. " I know what I know." Says everyone who justifies bad behavior!!! Nt

[pnwmom]

182. You and they turned out okay despite this practice, not because of it.

You must otherwise have been a good parent.

[NurseJackie]

196. We found the right balance. Others apparently cannot and gravitate to one extreme or the other.

[pnwmom]

208. It isn't an extreme to find methods of disciple that don't involve hitting.

The American Academy of Pediatrics and other major organizations oppose corporal punishment, including spanking.

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2018/11/05/discipline110518

Parents and other adult caregivers should use effective discipline strategies for children that do not involve spanking, other forms of corporal punishment or verbal shaming.

The guidance is part of an updated policy statement in which the Academy strengthens its opposition to corporal punishment. The policy Effective Discipline to Raise Healthy Children, from the Council on Child Abuse and Neglect and the Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health, is available at https://doi.org/10.1542/peds.2018-3112 and will be published in the December issue of Pediatrics.

SNIP

In the updated policy, the AAP defines corporal punishment as the “non-injurious, open handed hitting with the intention of modifying child behavior.” Defined this way, corporal punishment is distinct from child abuse.

Harmful effects, vicious cycle

The change in guidance is brought about by an increasing awareness of the risks of corporal punishment for normal child development. Corporal punishment can bring on a vicious cycle of escalating poor behavior and more severe punishment.

[NurseJackie]

209. Nobody said it was.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. It depends on what you mean by "work."

[NurseJackie]

48. The outcome is perfectly fine.

It depends on what you mean by "work."

This type of hyper-analysis and hair-splitting is tiresome.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

54. What outcome?

This type of hyper-analysis and hair-splitting is tiresome.

It starts when people call it "spanking" instead of "hitting."

[NurseJackie]

57. Haaaaa!

It starts when people call it "spanking" instead of "hitting."

No, it starts when people try to equate spanking with hitting.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

59. Your careful definition in the OP makes it clear that some people just really want a certain type of

hitting kids to be okay.

[NurseJackie]

60. It's not hitting.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

64. Keep telling yourself that.

[NurseJackie]

72. I'm just telling you...

Keep telling yourself that.

I'm just telling you... and anyone else who makes absurd accusations that I'm a "child abuser" or that I "hit" my children.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

79. According to the definition you insisted we all use, you strike your children.

I can't imagine what inspired you to get up on a Sunday morning and put that on Al Gore's internet, but here we are.

[NurseJackie]

81. LOL!

I can't imagine what inspired you to get up on a Sunday morning and put that on Al Gore's internet, but here we are.

LOL! Cute.

[Humanist_Activist]

82. Uhm, if you spanked them, you hit them, I mean, that's just literally true.

Now, calling you an "abuser" is dicier, due to the fact that you were raised in a culture that is very permissive of violence in general, and the use of violence as discipline in particular. We still have public schools that are permitted to spank children, after all.

[NurseJackie]

87. Once size doesn't fit all.

We still have public schools that are permitted to spank children, after all.

With the parents' permission... good for them! I approve.

Uhm, if you spanked them, you hit them, I mean, that's just literally true.

Spare me.

[USALiberal]

174. LOL, OK, that settles it! Wow!! nt

[alphafemale]

30. Two children and each once

My son was also one to pull free from my hand and dart. He would laugh because the chase was fun.
He was about two.

Then one time he did it coming out of a restaurant and was two steps from a busy 45mph freeway.

POP! POP! On a still diaper clad behind.

It was probably my jerking him back and the tone of my voice more than anything.

My daughter somehow got out of the house and was running around naked in the rain.
Which would have been fine, and I would have just let the neighbors scowl their uptight scowls.
She was about three.

Thing was it was one of the worst wind and lightning events I have ever experienced locally.

There were two strikes nearly in the yard and a tree fell over into the neighbor's roof.

And this nature child is squealing in delight.



But that was it. One time each.

[Hugin]

67. Would you say they were responding more to...

their perception of your obvious fear for their safety or to the spanking in those cases?

In other words, the lesson you were imparting was that sometimes play is inappropriate.

I know seeing fear in a parent is a profound revelation in the eyes of a young child. They realize that the center of their world and the bringer of all they know doesn't control everything.

[alphafemale]

126. Oh. I am pretty sure it was the panic level of voice.

I was generally pretty unflappable for most things.

[CrackityJones75]

46. I was beaten by my step father. I was spanked by my mother.

Anyone that says they are the same is off their damned rocker. I’ve “spanked” my son once as he was hysterical and we were driving on the freeway and I pulled over gave him a swat on the bottom and that was that. The whole family was in jeoprady with him wailing and screaming.

My step father on the other hand beat me. Grabbed me by the throat and lifted me off the ground and hit me. From ages 3-8 I was hit with “the black belt”.

My mother once soanked me in a kmart from throwing a tantrum over not getting a toy and I would not settle down. She didn’t hurt me and didn’t cause irreparable damage.

If anyone thinks these three things are the same because some university has a 50 year study telling them so you are nuts. And you should watch John Oliver’s episode on “studies”.

[Humanist_Activist]

50. I find this anti-intellectual streak to be fascinating. I mean, if it contradicts your personal...

experience, then it must be wrong, but your personal experience can, in contrast, be universalized.

[CrackityJones75]

61. I am not anti-intellectual at all.

I completely support education and research and furthering our knowledge. I disagree with the studies blanket findings. Or perhaps I disagree with people’s blankat usage of the studies findings.

Or are you telling me that I beat my son?

[Humanist_Activist]

69. Its a meta-study, a study of studies, if you will, and the aggregate is a consensus among...

child development experts at this time. It could change in the future, and that's fine, but just saying that no evidence can change your beliefs is, by definition, anti-intellectual and anti-science.

[CrackityJones75]

75. No evidence is going to change my mind

No evidence is going to change my mind about what spanking is to me. I’ve spanked one of my children one time in their entire lives. I don’t believe in hitting to solve problems but I also know that I employed it exactly once for what I think was a proper application.

[Humanist_Activist]

77. Exactly. n/t

[NurseJackie]

70. I find the streak of personal insults to be fascinating.

but your personal experience can, in contrast, be universalized.

Nobody is saying that.

[Humanist_Activist]

73. Uhm, yes they are, what else do you mean when you contradict scientific meta-studies...

by saying that your kids turned out fine, so therefore it is wrong? Are you not encouraging others to act the same way you did? And if so, do you not expect the same results as with your own family? Oh, and I have yet to insult you, you can claim it, doesn't make it true.

[NurseJackie]

80. Yes.

your kids turned out fine, so therefore it is wrong?

Yes.

Are you not encouraging others to act the same way you did?

No.

And if so, do you not expect the same results as with your own family?

That depends. Lots of variables. One size doesn't fit all. One "study" doesn't apply to all.

Oh, and I have yet to insult you, you can claim it, doesn't make it true.

Not this time. Thank you.

[Humanist_Activist]

86. Wait, so if someone acted the exact same as you, but their kid had to go to therapy...

because of it, would the study all of the sudden be right?

[NurseJackie]

89. No.

[Humanist_Activist]

93. OK, so what, that parent is an abuser, but you are not, what would be the difference? n/t

[NurseJackie]

94. No.

[Humanist_Activist]

96. So psychologically traumatizing your own children is permissible?

What is your argument here? You keep saying "one size doesn't fit all" but how do you know what level of physical "discipline" is too much?

[NurseJackie]

99. LOL!

So psychologically traumatizing your own children is permissible?

LOL! Cute.

You keep saying "one size doesn't fit all" but how do you know what level of physical "discipline" is too much?

It depends. A mother knows. I trust my own judgement when it comes to my children. I found the "size" that worked.

[Humanist_Activist]

102. Again, you make my argument for me, completely arbitrary.

I mean, if we were to take your beliefs at face value, then the only time any physical "discipline" is abuse is when tools are involved.

[NurseJackie]

105. No it's not.

Again, you make my argument for me, completely arbitrary.

No it's not.

I mean, if we were to take your beliefs at face value, then the only time any physical "discipline" is abuse is when tools are involved.

Nobody said that. (Or if someone did, it wasn't me.)

[Humanist_Activist]

106. You are being completely arbitrary, defensive and evasive throughout this thread.

There is no use in denying it. Also, I'm not saying that you argued it, but that your beliefs imply it.

[NurseJackie]

110. I've done no such thing. I don't judge you. I don't call you names.

You are being completely arbitrary, defensive and evasive throughout this thread.

I've done no such thing. But what I can tell you is this: I don't judge you. I don't call you names or make offensive comparisons. I don't insult your intelligence. We simply disagree. I wasn't a permissive parent and I make no apologies for it. Judge all you want, insult all you want, accuse all you want, insinuate all you want.

[Humanist_Activist]

111. Again, you demonstrate your own bias, if people don't use physical "discipline" they are being...

permissive.

Also, all your emoji use is insulting, not to mention your general dismissive attitude. Don't pretend to be innocent here. And I have not called you any names, and simply questioned your reasoning. Its you who found this insulting.

[NurseJackie]

118. Everyone has their "own bias".

Again, you demonstrate your own bias,

Everyone has their "own bias". Naturally. What were you expecting?

if people don't use physical "discipline" they are being... permissive.

I never said that.

Also, all your emoji use is insulting,

not to mention your general dismissive attitude.

GMAFB!

Don't pretend to be innocent here.

Who's pretending?

And I have not called you any names, and simply questioned your reasoning.

You've done both.

Its you who found this insulting.

Only the name-calling was personally insulting. I could have done without that.

[Humanist_Activist]

121. What name have I called you?

Also, your bias demonstrates that you are dissembling about your argument that "One size does not fit all" you actually believe and are arguing the opposite. You are creating a false dichotomy to advocate for spanking.

[NurseJackie]

131. We're going in circles now.

What name have I called you?

We're going in circles now. It's all there for anyone who cares to scroll up and review.

Also, your bias demonstrates that you are dissembling about your argument that "One size does not fit all" you actually believe and are arguing the opposite.

No it doesn't.

You are creating a false dichotomy to advocate for spanking.

No, you're creating a false dichotomy to advocate for permissiveness and weak parenting and using that as an excuse to tell others how they should (or should have) parented, or to accuse them of being "child abusers" or "child beaters" and causing their children to need counseling and therapy. I know what worked/works for me and our family, but I'm certainly not a know-it-all trying to force my personal child-rearing methods on everyone else. I have not accused others of engaging in crimes nor compared them to those who do.



If you want the last word, it's yours to take. This is getting more and more ridiculous... the insults, the accusations, the offensive comparisons, the coy and subtle ageist and generational disparagement.

Have a nice day!

[Humanist_Activist]

136. You are literally arguing, in this post! That those who advocate against spanking are advocating...

for overly-permissive parenting, and on top of that, you seem to link this to mythical ills with the current generation of children. We are going around in circles because you entire belief system related to discipline of children is based on myths.

[Arazi]

165. +1

Crazy...

Thanks for trying

[Hekate]

173. Psst, Jackie. He read a study.

[Hekate]

172. Anti-intellectual streak?You are going out of your way to be as insulting as possible in this thread

So you read a 50-year academic study. You keep saying that.

Did you happen to raise any kids? You know, like in your house, 24/7 and all that. With one kid compliant but not perfect, and one kid who is ADHD and has a motor-mouth. And you have no babysitter or nearby relatives.

Have you ever?

I don’t think so. But you read a study.

[SYFROYH]

91. No, but my son responded well to verbal commands

In our to get his attention or to stop misbehaving.

He also responded well to instruction to do better.

Plus losing video games for a week or a month was very effective.

[CrackityJones75]

134. Just wait until

Just wait until the study that taking privileges away is deemed cruel. Many studies show....

[Hekate]

171. Thank you, CrackityJones

My gods what a thread.

[Chautauquas]

74. Raised three kids

spanked them once or twice and decided it was an ineffective and unnecessary way to deal with behaviors, so I never used spanking as a discipline again.

[NurseJackie]

84. It doesn't work for everyone. There isn't a one-size-fits-all approach that...

... can be applied universally.

[Chautauquas]

90. I agree

I always looked at the issue as a personal one. I have friends who spanked their kids on occasion and I never thought they were being abusive. The only time I personally saw abuse take place was when a neighbor was striking her daughter with a belt really hard and I called the cops in that case.

[Arazi]

76. Never. It's repulsive and barbaric

[GusBob]

83. Interesting question. Had to stop and think

We’ve 4 kids. This may sound like a brag, but it’s true

Never spanked or hit our kids BUT there never was a need to do so. LOL are kids were perfect! No they just never caused us trouble, until they were teenagers then the real bad things happened, a lot
By then they were too old for spankings

I was spanked as a child but not by that definition. My mother used a fly swatter the kind with the metal handle. It was passive aggressive the plastic part didn’t hurt but if you got the metal, ouch
She had 5 sons so we usually had it coming

My nephew was a horrible child a real brat. The stories I could tell. He tricked me into burning myself once, still have the scar. Would put bleach in your drink, ketchup on your chair. His dad beat him but it didn’t matter. He has committed felonies now just turned 16

[Bettie]

85. I was spanked as a child

and it wasn't OK.

My father used a leather belt. He would walk toward us, singing a little song he made up as he laughed and demanded that we pull our pants down.

Then, he would hit us with the belt until he felt there were enough welts there to make us "behave". I and one of my brothers cried right away, it got us out of the worst of it. My youngest brother never once cried. He flatly refused to give in and would just look at him and say "I hate you" afterward, which usually led to another round.

My mother used a wooden spoon or a metal serving spoon on whatever body part was handy.

I have never spanked my children. In fact, our discipline has been pretty lax.

Generally, we've been able to talk to them about what they did and why it was not cool and say "Don't let it happen again."

We have had to impose further consequences three or four times over three children, though the youngest is only 12, so we'll see how he does. Our kids are afraid of us being disappointed in them, not of us physically harming them.

I haven't been a perfect mom, yelled too much when they were little and I worry that it hurt them, but they aren't afraid of us.

I felt nothing when my father died. Literally nothing except a vague sense of relief.

I hope my kids are sad when I die.

[Hekate]

176. You were beaten, not spanked, and I'm so sorry...

Jackie defined “spanking” as an open-handed slap on a clothed butt. And that’s the common definition.

Your father was sadistic ( “singing a little song...and laughing” ) . You and your brothers deserved so much better.

[mcar]

95. How do you explain to a child that it's OK for an adult to hit them

but it's not OK for them to hit others?

When our kids were little, my RWNJ brother and I used to get into it about spanking. He was pro, of course.

A few years later, he quietly mentioned that he wasn't spanking his kids anymore for the reason I mentioned above.

[NurseJackie]

97. I never needed to do that.

How do you explain to a child that it's OK for an adult to hit them but it's not OK for them to hit others?

I never needed to do that. My children were spanked, I did not "hit" them. But, if they had hit others and didn't respond to a verbal scolding, then they'd have probably gotten a spanking.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

100. "I never needed to do that."

Of course not. You let the striking say it for you.

[NurseJackie]

103. It wasn't necessary.

Of course not. You let the striking say it for you.

And it worked perfectly.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

113. "And it worked perfectly."

I know you need to believe that.

[NurseJackie]

116. Actually, it's not about what I need. It's what my children needed.

I know you need to believe that.

Actually, it's not about what I need. It's what my children needed.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

119. No child needs their parent to strike them.

[NurseJackie]

120. Mine did.

No child needs their parent to strike them.

Mine did.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

122. I am sorry you believe that. Truly.

There is a lot of cultural messaging around hitting kids in different families and communities, and it's hard to let go.

[NurseJackie]

129. I suspect this will be a great disappointment....

I am sorry you believe that. Truly.

I suspect this will be a great disappointment, but I do not seek anyone's approval. That type of faux pity and feigned indignation is as ridiculous as it is ineffective.

There is a lot of cultural messaging around hitting kids in different families and communities, and it's hard to let go.

A more accurate observation is that there are a lot of people who think it's their sacred obligation to force their values on others by accusing them of "hitting kids" or of being "child beaters" or "child abusers".

[WhiskeyGrinder]

130. .

I suspect this will be a great disappointment, but I do not seek anyone's approval. That type of faux pity and feigned indignation is as ridiculous as it is ineffective

It's not ineffective if I don't expect a change, and I don't. Just sharing opinions on a discussion board on a topic that you started.

A more accurate observation is that there are a lot of people who think it's their sacred obligation to force their values on others by accusing them of "hitting kids" or of being "child beaters" or "child abusers".

Again, not forcing my values at all! Just calling it as I see it, and I see striking kids as a shitty thing to do.

[NurseJackie]

133. Of course it is.

I see striking kids as a shitty thing to do.

It's supposed to be and unpleasant deterrent. It worked just fine for my children.

Again, not forcing my values at all!

Of course it is. It's not been very effective, but that's what it is.

It's not ineffective if I don't expect a change, and I don't.

Yes, I'm so sure.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

137. .

So this is interesting to me.

It's supposed to be and unpleasant deterrent. It worked just fine for my children.

You know it's a shitty thing to do, and yet you say you do it anyway, because it "worked." How did it work?

[NurseJackie]

140. Perfectly.

How did it work?

Perfectly.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

141. What does that look like?

[NurseJackie]

142. What do you think it looks like?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

143. I don't know; that's why I'm asking

[NurseJackie]

145. I figured as much.

I don't know; that's why I'm asking

So I'm being judged and scorned (and faux-pitied) by someone who has no idea how to judge or quantify failure or success.

That's really very amusing.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

147. Oh no, success can look like different things to different people.

I just want to know what it looked like, by striking your kids, for you.

[mcar]

149. Love you Jackie, but we're going to have to disagree on this one

[NurseJackie]

151. What's done is done. My mind is not changed. Nor will the past be changed.

[obamanut2012]

150. Spanking is hitting, it is striking

Saying it isn't says more about YOU than me.

If it is allowed to be done to another adult, it should be illegal to do to a child. Children should have the same exact human rights as adults in this country, and they don't. Spanking is one of the ways in which they are abused and treated as less-than citizens.

[NurseJackie]

152. Huh?

Saying it isn't says more about YOU than me.

Huh? What does that even mean?

If it is allowed to be done to another adult, it should be illegal to do to a child.

I have no idea what you're talking about here either.

[Bettie]

98. What spanking teaches is that it is OK for larger humans

to hit smaller humans, because their size and strength makes it somehow OK.

Just from a standpoint of logic, it doesn't make sense to say "I am hitting you because you hit your brother! Don't hit people!".

[Beakybird]

104. It's wrong, counterproductive, and I did it two or three times

when a situation got out of control.
I also heard that time outs aren't good, and I did those.

[NurseJackie]

107. How do you feel about permissiveness?

Or negotiating? Or shouting? Or gold-star charts? Or bribes?

[Beakybird]

112. I would imagine that a behavioral goal chart would work.

We had some success with this.
My daughter's now 19.
I would defer to experts that present good evidence, but lots of love and cuddles is the best place to start.

[NurseJackie]

127. Yes. Instead of a smack on the bottom when a child has a tantrum in the grocery store...

... my first thought was to reach in my purse and whip-out an index card with a gold-stars on one side and black-dot demerits on the other side.

"Jimmy... you better behave! Jimmy, Jimmy... look here! Look what Mommy is doing! I'm putting a black-dot demerit on your behavior card! How do you like that? What do you think of that? Aren't you ashamed? Look! A whole row of black-dot demerits! I'm going to start REMOVING gold stars from the other side if you don't stop!"

but lots of love and cuddles is the best place to start.

There are many ingredients. This is one of them.

[Beakybird]

139. That was funny!

[quaker bill]

123. my conclusion has been

that the day that all I have left to teach my child is that I am bigger, stronger, and can inflict pain, I have lost in every possible dimension. Actually doing it only confirms total failure.

[hunter]

125. I was indifferent to punishment or reward as a kid. Ask my parents or teachers.

Maybe I still am.

Fortunately I tend to be fairly good natured and mostly a danger to myself, not others.

I'd get angry at my own children and physically remove them from dangerous situations.

Nothing distracts a reckless toddler like scooping them up off their feet when they are running toward traffic and then holding them until the temper tantrums stop. I only got bit a couple of times.

One of our children would wander off, sometimes deliberately, so we had to use a toddler leash.

One of my brothers was like that and still is. As soon as he was old enough to get a job he saved enough money to buy a motorcycle and was gone.

When I was teenager we lived in a place where the school vice principal would paddle kids. It was legal there at the time. The worst trouble one of my brothers got into was laughing at this vice principal as he got the paddle out. He was paddled much harder than the other kids but it didn't change his behavior.

It seems to me that authoritarians carefully train their children to accept punishment. If that doesn't work they simply cast them out or kill them.

"Because I said so!" works to remove a child from immediate danger but as soon as a child is old enough to understand this "Because I said so!" has to be followed up with a frank discussion of the danger.

And no, "Because God said so!" is not a discussion, nor is it honest. That's just passing the buck.

Raising children is hard work and some children are much more difficult to raise than others.

When my wife and I were raising our own children I could always look back (with a shudder...) at the hell I put my own parents and teachers through and maybe I learned something from that.

[Humanist_Activist]

144. Oh, and another scientific study, straight from the horses' mouth, so to speak...

Over the past two decades, we have seen an international shift in perspectives concerning the physical punishment of children. In 1990, research showing an association between physical punishment and negative developmental outcomes was starting to accumulate, and the Convention on the Rights of the Child had just been adopted by the General Assembly of the United Nations; however, only four countries had prohibited physical punishment in all settings.

By 2000, research was proliferating, and the convention had been ratified by 191 of the world’s 196 countries, 11 of which had prohibited all physical punishment. Today, research showing the risks associated with physical punishment is robust, the convention has been integrated into the legal and policy frameworks of many nations, and 31 countries have enacted prohibitions against the physical punishment of children.1 These three forces — research, the convention and law reform — have altered the landscape of physical punishment.

The growing weight of evidence and the recognition of children’s rights have brought us to a historical point. Physicians familiar with the research can now confidently encourage parents to adopt constructive approaches to discipline and can comfortably use their unique influence to guide other aspects of children’s healthy development. In doing so, physicians strengthen child well-being and parent–child relationships at the population level. Here, we present an analysis of the research on physical punishment spanning the past two decades to assist physicians in this important role.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/

[BannonsLiver]

153. Fantastic thread Jackie!

Very illuminating and funny. My personal favorite response was where WG said “parents shouldn’t have power over their children.”

And of course all of the other nonsense. Great stuff!

(We don’t have kids so I have not done any spanking. I have had to rap our 130 pound St Bernard on the tush a couple of times with a newspaper for trying to steal food off peoples plates when she was younger. Im sure that makes me a terrible person/pet owner.)

[KentuckyWoman]

156. Technically a spank but actually a love pat.

We were both giggling at the time. I swatted the dirt off her pants.

Discipline wise, I always found it more productive to get up in their faces really quiet and make them focus. If that didn't work removal from the situation was in order.

And believe you me... when the other 4 kids have to leave the fun because of the one who is acting up ... the hell to pay is much worse than any hitting.

[Decoy of Fenris]

158. I spanked when my kiddo was lil' and I regret it vigorously now.

Our daughter used to absolutely run amok from the age of 1-4, and if she didn't get her way, she would spiral into a screaming , spitting, near-frothing tantrum that would last for hours. Spanking was never common, but in hindsight it was far, far too often anyways.

It wasn't until she was 3 that we realized something was grievously wrong. Turns out she's moderately high-functioning autistic, ADHD, OCD, has Echolalia and a severe speech delay compounded with it.

I regret every single time I laid a hand on that poor baby girl's butt. She had almost no control of her actions and she was just getting more confused by the spanking, because in her teeny tiny brilliant lil' mind, she just knew something was -wrong- but she had no way to convey it to Mom and Dad, and she couldn't fix it herself.


I'll never forget her soul-tearing crying because Daddy gave her a spank, all because she might have wanted a hug but was frustrated that she had no idea how to ask for one.


(This is only my experience and why I can't support spanking, but won't judge someone for the same.)


ON EDIT: Boppagirly is getting all the attention and medical support she needs now, has really mellowed out approaching 6 years old, and is one of the brightest minds in her school! Her communication is far better, and she's the sweetest, kindest, most well-mannered soul ("May I please", "Thank you very much&quot you've ever seen. She's filled with nothing but joy and love.

[smirkymonkey]

159. No. I was terribly abused as a child and vowed that I would never do that to anyone else.

It was more than spanked. And I still would not do such a thing to a child. It was my stepmother. She was horrible.

[Tree Lady]

160. I almost didn't answer because feel bad about it

At the time I raised my kids I was swallowed up in a church that said spare the rod spoil the kid, it's somewhere in the bible. I never had to be spanked as a kid because I was a "good" girl but my brother got it. Same goes for my kids only one needed it I thought, wasn't often. I remember a time she ran away from me in JC Penneys and thought it was funny to hide. I had store looking for her.

I wished I learned other methods. I tried my best and thankfully both girls are good humans. They have good jobs but what matters most to me is they are kind, generous, polite, and care about the environment love hiking like I do.

[Blue_true]

161. It teaches a child that violence gets obedience.

Talking to and mentoring them take more time, but in the end builds a better person.

[NurseJackie]

202. Neither is mutually exclusive.

In my family, we found a good balance that worked well. There are, of course, extremes at both ends: cruel brutality on one side, and unbridled permissiveness on the other.

[Blue_true]

215. Talking to and mentoring a child is not permissiveness,

especially when it is done with expectations around decision-making and overall conduct. Permissiveness is letting a child run around in public places, instead of doing a time-out and taking that child into a corner to have a talk about actual behavior in that situation and expected behavior in the situation.

Like I said, it is a time consuming process for a parent, but my view is that people should not become parents if they are not willing to put in that time and deal with the setbacks and victories that will happen as the child grows into a prepared, polished and confident man or woman.

[NurseJackie]

216. Uh-huh. I know what permissiveness is.

[mnhtnbb]

164. I raised two boys.

Never spanked either one of them.

I also tried to anticipate situations that would make them tired, hungry, or otherwise not inclined to behave and get them home or to bed or finished with an activity when they were little in order to prevent tantrums.

When they were older and capable of reasoning and understanding expectations, we used appropriate rewards and punishments ( withdrawal of privileges).

[fishwax]

166. No. I was abused as a kid, and decided I wouldn't hit my kids at all.

[Hekate]

167. Corollary: what year were you born?

1947 — and yes. Be it noted: I spanked my kids less than my Mom and Dad spanked us. And my Mom & Dad did spankings when all else failed; but by comparison, some of the neighbors used belts, hair brushes, ping-pong paddles, or wooden clothes hangars — and we all knew it, because kids talk to each other, and it was legal.

That was then: this is now.

I’ve only participated in this kind of conversation in person once, and I’ll just say this: times change, and sometimes for the better. This is one of them. But what I find truly offensive is to be told in the 21st century that I “assaulted” my children 40+ years ago and should be legally punished for it.

[NurseJackie]

169. I'm also seventy mumble years old.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

170. I used to have a stepdaughter (before divorce), but...

... I would've never spanked her, despite how my wife spanked her a couple times when she was terribly misbehaving -- e.g., shrieking and laying prone on the floor of a store, about some silly and expensive item that she demanded we buy for her.

My own child? I'd definitely try to avoid it, but I might spank them in really bad situations. Not sure.

[tonedevil]

183. I've always been smarter...

than the children I am taking care of. It allows me to discipline them without resorting to brut force. I have wondered what it would be like to be too stupid to know how to change behavior short of physical dominance. It makes one seem quite pathetic.

[vercetti2021]

184. I'd never do it

I got spanked a few times but it didn't do much harm. Now getting hit by my dad with the butt of a BB rifle. That damaged me as he drug me off to a room to scream at me for talking back to him. Never once did I talk back to him in the past. The only time I did and it hurt so bad.

[tonedevil]

186. I frequently rewarded my daughters...

for "talking back" to me. I'm pretty sure it helped them become the successful women they are. If as a parent you can't justify your use of authority your children have a right to call you on your shit.

[vercetti2021]

188. I was having emotional problems

My cousin told me he wanted to hit me with the rifle. And he was getting them out for my other cousins and I said it as I walked by him. My dad severely messed me up as a child. Reason I have two suicide attempts in my life. Can't wait to tell him I'm trans. That outta set him off. But I'm glad it helped them in the long run. I never been successful. I live at home and work a shitty job which I just got a head injury at. So I got that going for me

[tonedevil]

189. I tried so hard...

Not to mess with my children. My parents did some, but I know they were trying to be better.

[vercetti2021]

190. My mom did her best

My dad injected it into me I was a failure and wouldn't go anywhere. I know some kids would do everything to prove them wrong. But I took it as defeat and hid from the world. So parents have to be careful what they do to their kids. I'm surprised I'm okay and never turned into a mass shooter or something from all my pain and anger.

[tonedevil]

191. I don't blame my parents...

and I don't think I was horribly damaged. It just seems the bar can be higher.

[Duncan Grant]

192. If you use physical "sanctions" to make your kids behave or be good, you're an abuser.

Is there anything else you’d like to know? Maybe a discussion on childhood development and the lifelong debilitating affects of trauma would be helpful — or necessary.

[tonedevil]

199. Sad that others here don't see that. /nt

[obamanut2012]

210. Thank you

The spanking threads on DU have always appalled me -- so many folks excusing their literal abuse and assault of minors, and excusing how they were also abused and assaulted as children.

And yeah, it's assault and abuse. If you would be arrested for doing it to another adult, but not a child? You are an abuser that the law in this country protects.

[Duncan Grant]

214. Spanking discharges the adult's anger, frustration, fear or discomfort with no positive effect.

An adult’s emotional state is the energy behind swats/spanking. No calm adult spanks a child while calculating the intensity or duration of the swats, right? Calm, responsive people, have more to offer their kids.

You’re right about the contradiction between what’s acceptable problem solving between adults and between parent and child. I don’t know how parents can even meet their child’s gaze after striking them. Seriously, how does one do that?

[betsuni]

195. It's usual now that words have different meanings depending on "feelings."

[alphafemale]

200. Making an occasional swat on the behind equivalent to child abuse is an abomination

It is one of those things so outlier, it is like one of those things right wing media would make up about progressives.

PETA level of twisted thought, they kill nearly 100% of animals that come into their shelters, because they see life as a pet as a life in slavery.

[NurseJackie]

201. That's a very astute and thoughtful observation.

Thanks for sharing it!

[greenjar_01]

204. Some peoeple in this thread I usually agree with

But I'm genuinely embarrassed by their behavior and arguments in this thread.

Good Lord.

[nolabear]

205. What's the goal? Stop behavior or teach?

You can stop behavior by instilling fear of pain as punishment for that behavior, or you can take a longer, far more difficult approach by helping a child (yes, toddlers too) in an age appropriate way learn to control themselves. Both create neural pathways that become predominate (I know, nothing’s absolute but a pattern creates strong neural pathways; once might not. Or, it might). Brains create thoughts to explain feelings. That’s just a fact. It’s all biochemistry. A child’s brain will learn to flush with cortisol and Adrenalin imagining being hit for behavior. That’s a strong deterrent. What won’t happen, or at least will be inhibited and make it harder to happen, is the opposite, a flush of endorphins, a pleasurable association, a sense of identification with those who can self-regulate. Those become thoughts. And reasons for life choices. And a way of regarding and treating others.

Parenting is hard, and parents are not perfect. A swat is not a hand smack on the rear is not a belt buckle is not a fist. But those chemicals are very much the same. Hitting can be mitigated with caring behavior and that can help. Fine people have been raised both ways. But I can pretty much guarantee that what goes on to create those fine people differs. Sometimes it’s the best a parent can do. But it matters.

[Duncan Grant]

207. This is a great summation.

Thank you for elevating the discussion.

What won’t happen, or at least will be inhibited and make it harder to happen, is the opposite, a flush of endorphins, a pleasurable association, a sense of identification with those who can self-regulate. Those become thoughts. And reasons for life choices. And a way of regarding and treating others.

[kairos12]

206. Not ever. Not once.