I think I may have just figured out the 'Fake ID's' thing ... it was bugging me

[Hugh_Lebowski]

So I gave it some thought, and this is what I came up with.

Normally I'd think ... all that a fake ID does is get you into bars/clubs, or let's you buy liquor or cigarettes, that kind of thing.

So I was thinking there's not really any practical value to fake ID's when it comes to having sex with minors. The age is all that actually matters.

But after some thought, I have another explanation. Granted, it would involve an incredibly stupid scheme. However, it's one I could imagine these assholes trying.

You give the 17 year old's fake ID's saying that they're of age.

The john then asks to see ID to make sure (wink wink) that the girls are 'legal' before the sex.

Maybe some john's are 'in the know' and some aren't.

But regardless, if the johns then get busted, they turn around and go 'Hey, I asked her for ID, and she showed me she was 18, you can't blame ME!?!' Maybe they even take a picture of it for safekeeping.

Now, for normal people, you'd still be in deep shit.

However, if you're rich and white and powerful, and can afford good lawyers? This just might be enough to get you out of trouble.

Would G & G actually be SO STUPID as to think this to be a viable plan, and make ID's to use in this fashion?

Another option is that they were using the ID's as 'payment for services'. A decent fake ID is worth some money. And they'd have value to anyone under 21.

[Tbear]

1. I believe that Greenberg was putting his own picture on the fake id's

[Hugh_Lebowski]

3. Interesting. So then these ID's are a totally separate scam perhaps?

Not sure what for, but I suppose crooks like these might have their mitts in all kinds of shady shit.

[murpheeslaw]

16. Maybe CreditCard fraud?

They don't seem that bright. Were the addresses changed when they updated the pictures?

[dixiegrrrrl]

35. are we assuming the faked IDs were of young women?

I haven't heard if he was selective in grabbing the IDs he used.

[taxi]

8. Ah.

That makes perfect sense.

[soothsayer]

18. And made some of Gaetz too

[taxi]

32. I think the plan was

The teen would never have to lie. They would make an ID for Greenberg. Greenberg's photo with the existing license data for an immediate relative of the teen. She would be accompanying her Dad or Uncle on his trip with Gaetz. Yes?

[ret5hd]

2. Flying?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

5. I thought of that and checked the laws. No need to do that and only adds risk

with no practical value.

[dalton99a]

4. Not just prostitution, but child porn

Traci Lords was a famous porn actress until the feds discovered her real age

Traci Elizabeth Lords (born Nora Louise Kuzma; May 7, 1968) is an American actress, former pornographic actress, singer, and model. Lords got into the adult film industry by using a fake birth certificate to conceal the fact that she was two years under the legal age of 18.[1] Lords starred in adult films and was one of the most sought-after actresses in the adult entertainment industry during her career. When the FBI acted on an anonymous tip that Lords was a minor during her time in the industry, and that pornographers were distributing and selling these de facto illegal images and videotapes, the resulting fallout led to prosecution of those responsible for creating and distributing.[2] In addition, all but the last of her adult films were banned as child pornography.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traci_Lords

[Hugh_Lebowski]

7. Yeah, I dunno on that one ... possible I guess, but the porn industry from what I've read

Covers their asses pretty well. At least, the ones that pay good money. I'm just not sure a fake ID is going to fly.

Plus there's no accusations of any porn work I've read about, you?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

43. Curious, I looked up the history on this ...

In fact, the three dudes who were indicted in the Lords underage case ... eventually walked.

Why?

In essence because the courts (eventually) entertained the argument that 'not knowing she had tricked them' was a defense. Which she clearly did, and did a very convincing job of it, with legit government-issued documents.

One other porn producer dude went to jail around her case, but that was for selling Lord's tapes to an undercover FBI agent after it was known they were illegal.

So ... yeah.

[tanyev]

6. I'm thinking travel and alcohol. From the NYT:

One of the sites the men met women through was called Seeking Arrangement, which describes itself as a place where wealthy people find attractive companions and pamper them “with fine dinners, exotic trips and allowances.” The site’s founder has said it has 20 million members worldwide. The F.B.I. mentioned the website in a conversation with at least one potential witness, according to a person familiar with the conversation.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/01/us/politics/matt-gaetz-justice-department.html

[Hugh_Lebowski]

11. You wouldn't need a fake ID to travel and it'd be incredibly risky to use one in that fashion

You don't have to be 18 to buy a plane ticket, and you can get on a plane alone if you're 15 or over.

Alcohol, bars, clubs, etc ... yes.

But that would be a case where, as I said in the end of my post, the ID would more likely be a 'form of payment' rather than a means to successfully get away with screwing a minor.

[tanyev]

19. Didn't Gaetz say something that implied he paid for the travel, but met up with

the ‘girlfriends’ at the destinations? In that case they could travel on their own IDs, but a fake ID would be needed for clubs and partying at the destination. Also handy if he was recognized and questioned about partying with someone who looked very young.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

21. ID's to get away with partying/get 18-21 women into clubs makes some sense

We know they're into escorts, so their taking these women out partying actually makes some sense.

Not sure about the last utility you speak of though ... describe to me a situation were Gaetz assuages someone's concern who recognizes him re: the age of the girl(s) he's partying with ... by having the girls show ID's?

The congressman from the next district over, who's at the same club, comes up to Gaetz and demands to see the ID's of the girls he's hanging out with? I kinda can't really see that happening. Just sayin'. Did you have some other scenario in mind?

Fake ID's to somehow enable underage sex though only MAYBE makes ANY sense ... under very specific circumstances. I'm just trying to work out if there is one, or if the ID's have nothing to do with underage sex.

Which they may not.

In fact, there might not even be underage sex, we really don't know yet, despite there being a lot of apparent certainty around here.

[tanyev]

22. No, I'm thinking more like a suspicious hotel clerk or bar/restaurant staff.

Someone who recognizes who Gaetz is, thinks the woman he’s with looks very young and asks to see ID. Gaetz isn’t super famous, but he has a high enough profile that he could get recognized. If his companion is suspiciously young, good insurance to have an ID to flash that ‘proves’ otherwise. Don’t want a nosy hotel clerk calling the cops or TMZ.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

23. Bar or Restaurant staff would ONLY do this if the girl was drinking, ever.

So we're back to the 'getting them alcohol' reasoning.

And a Hotel Clerk would be very easy to avoid. Just have the girl walk into the hotel and go to your room.

[Mr.Bill]

33. Some bars, especially night clubs with entertainment

check IDs at the door. Unless they serve food and a certain percentage of your business is selling food, in my state you are required to be 21 to walk into a bar.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

34. Sure, but this isn't the scenario described in the post I'm replying to ...

It's a given that fake Id's support getting people into various establishments that sell/serve alcohol. That particular utility I'm stipulating to. But you could be doing that for 18-21 year olds. And it's legal to sleep with girls >=18.

I'm wondering if there's any logical reason that the fake ID's might tie into the '17 year olds' thing, which is a bit of a different ball of wax.

[blm]

9. I worked peripherally in the music biz for a number of years.

Underage girls were almost always carrying fake IDs to ‘prove’ they were over 18. Back then it was usually an older sister or cousin’s driver license.

It was easy to fool most rockers.

[theneworiginal]

10. Not a legal defense even if the perp actually was duped.

Nope. They’re fucked either way.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

14. Like I said ... an ordinary schmoe like you or me? I totally agree ...

A wealthy person, with the best lawyers?

I think that's potentially a different situation.

Not to mention, I said it was a stupid scheme from the outset ... and I'm just wondering ... would they be this dumb?

We're talking about Gaetz here.

[Budi]

12. Probably to avoid illegal human & child trafficking suspicions

As well as profit as a pimp, of course.

[magicarpet]

13. High school juniors and seniors who look older and college students would pay big money for a,...

.... for a legit looking ID card.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

15. Hence the last lines of my post :) nt

[magicarpet]

17. Sorry,... I got lost while reminiscing on my naughty days.

We went through a beer phase,

A Smirnoff vodka phase,

Then a Ron Rico 151 rum phase,

Then lost interest because we came of age.

[SheltieLover]

20. Could also have been for interstate air travel?

Just another thought.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

24. Nope, not needed

Gaetz could buy a 15 year old an airline ticket and they'd be able get on the plane with their own ID, no questions asked. Actually technically you don't even have to show ANY ID if your ticket says you're a minor.

And also, you don't even have to be 18 to buy yourself an airline ticket.

[SheltieLover]

26. Ty

But maybe so minor couldn't be tracked by name?

Just a thought.

Who knows?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

28. Honestly this angle was the first thing I thought of when trying to think of a reason

Why 'fake IDs' and 'underage sex' would have a tie-in with one another.

It really doesn't make sense from a risk/reward scenario. You're getting the Feds involved here, giving false identities to both the airline, and the TSA agents. Basically seriously increasing risk with no tangible reward.

By far the most logical thing would be to send the 17 year old $200 cash or however much (or they use their own, and you pay them back when they arrive), have them buy their own plane ticket and get on the plane w/their own ID.

False identities and/or ID's have no value here that I can come up with.

[SheltieLover]

30. Good points you make

Who knows? Impossible to think like a qpuke pedo, thankfully!

[Baitball Blogger]

25. There could be another reason.

Back in the late 90s, Seminole County was trying to build up tourism for the Sanford Airport and to improve the economy and real estate sales. They tried to connect with Wicklow, Ireland through their sister city program. The concept was to fly in Irish tourists into Sanford, and even encourage house sales in Seminole County. As far as my personal welfare was concerned, it proved to be a disaster. My legal rights as a homeowner were completely trashed.

The final portion of my development was due to be developed in 1998. In that same time there were very connected locals who were in a personal fight with the then owner of the Country Club, who had already cultivated a relationship with the owner of the land to build single family homes. The locals wanted to stop him from pursuing his plans, and because the County was trying to cultivate local support for their County planning programs, it was a marriage conceived in hell. At the time, officials in the city and county were meeting outside of open, city meetings so it was impossible to follow the decision-making process, until it was too late.

The next thing that happened should have been the death knell for those backwater meetings, but it hasn't stopped them. It was a disaster waiting to happen. A city commissioner who served on several boards in the County hijacked the itinerary of visiting Wicklow officials, and brought them to our city to give them a sneak preview for a development that they would name Wicklow. A competing developer, preferred by the locals, was given a secret and illegal opportunity to pitch his plans to the commissioner. It was a meeting that was outside of a legally noticed meeting to the public. In fact, the meeting took place on a Sunday morning when most people were in church. The idea was that this Wicklow development was supposed to be pitched to the Irish, who came into the county through the sister city progam, who were looking for real estate investment.

It was a total corruption of government process. The people that lived on the older side of the development were denied critical information, in order to keep them from objecting. We were defrauded by our own neighbors. And as we began to learn about what they did, we were bullied into silence. It still is happening to this day.

Before it got off the ground, the Wicklow sister city program would blow up in everyone's faces. Though it would have lasting effects in my community.

So, if you're asking why someone in the county would have need of I.D.s, is it possible that they were also planning to sell them to people who were brought into the States by the County's legitimate tourism programs?

Considering that this County isn't above doing crooked things that they get away with, you shouldn't limit yourself to I.D.s for the underage.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

27. I was more thinking why was Greenberg specifically making fake ID's

As opposed to why would anyone physically in the county want one.

And what you're describing seems like it would involve fake passports more than just state-level IDs but maybe I misunderstand you.

I was trying to reckon if there was maybe any logical tie-in between 'fake ID's' and 'underage sex', and this was the only thing I could think of

[Baitball Blogger]

29. I'm not thinking of passports. I'm thinking of the ordinary driver's licenses that Greenberg was

stealing. People who come into the States that were looking to facilitate business might find them helpful.

But, yes, I think there is also a strong possibility it had to do with the underage. Good lord, maybe even foreign underage girls? The mind boggles.

[mackdaddy]

31. Would have been great implicit blackmail threat.

Lend one of your "18" year old girlfriends to someone, and have videos or photos.

They are then your "friend" for life.

It worked well for Jeffrey Epstein for decades, (until it finally did not.)

[greenjar_01]

36. He made fake IDs for himself...I didn't see anywhere where it said he was making them for

the girls or women.

He was putting his own face on submitted IDs. God knows why, but the whole thread seems really speculative, especially since it's not clear he made any fake IDs for girls or women. Can you post a link on that?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

39. There's been a lot of speculation here that the two stories are related ...

I was trying to figure out if there's ANY sense to there being a connection between the two.

This was the only potential scenario whereby it might make sense that I came up with.

Total idle speculation on my part, to be clear ... as has been nearly all of it regarding the ID's.

[taxi]

37. It's a simple plan

A reprint of the drivers license for one of her relatives is made, BUT with Greenberg's photo.
Now the teen is accompanying her immediate relative and Gaetz on the trip. Father and daughter get a room. Gaetz gets a room. Who goes first?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

40. In what scenario would that actually be necessary?

You could check into the hotel alone and say your daughter is staying with you and will be along shortly, you'd like another key. They don't require ID for anyone but the person renting the room. You'd draw far less attention doing it this way vs. showing up at the counter with the girl, getting yourselves on video together. Also the name on your ID wouldn't match your credit card.

And you only have to be 15 to get on a plane by yourself.

Doesn't make sense.

[taxi]

47. I cannot disagree with what you say

I'm guessing that Gaetz and Greenberg play things a little loose though. There is going to be some weird, see-what-I-can-do, aspect to their tricks IMO. If what they were doing is ever exposed it may surprise all of us. I'll bet you a drink that no one on this thread got it completely right. Bet?

[Hugh_Lebowski]

50. I'm starting to think that probably the ID's are a totally separate scam ...

But if they do specifically tie in to the underage thing, I still think my explanation in the OP is the most logical explanation ... the ID's were for 'plausible deniability'.

However, I also won't be surprised at all if the actuality of the 17 year old story ... turns out to be one we're not expecting in general. So no I'm not going to bet.

[Volaris]

38. Possibly the latter...

Last edited Sun Apr 4, 2021, 03:57 PM - Edit history (1)

but anyone caught with a fake ID pretty much gets to talk to the local cops about it, and the first question that's GONNA get answered is 'howd you get this?'.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

41. In the Traci Lords case, the defendants were porn producers ...

Not likely wealthy, nor respected community members.

Rich, connected people with powerful lawyers get away with shit other people don't.

See: Epstein, Jeffrey (at least in the first go round, until he started getting sued by women right and left, and like 12 years went by and a major expose was done ... and he was molesting like 14 year olds, recruiting them from schools and such).

As more news comes out however, its sounding like the ID's were there own thing, not related to hiring escorts.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

42. Curious, I looked up the history on this, and it appears that you're unaware of what actually

happened.

The three dudes who were indicted ... eventually walked. Why? In essence because the courts entertained the idea that 'not knowing she had tricked them' was a defense. Which she clearly did, and did a very convincing job of it, with legit government-issued documents.

One other porn producer dude went to jail, but that was for selling Lord's tapes to an undercover LA vice cop (edit: was FBI) after it was known they were illegal.

So ... yeah.

[Volaris]

44. I must have had it backwards, then. I'll adjust, or delete the original statement.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

45. They appeared to be in a lot of trouble for quite awhile ...

I think by the time it was finally all decided, after numerous court cases, the public interest had waned greatly, and it wasn't a significant story when they were eventually let off.

And *A* porn producer did go to jail over it, it just wasn't the original 3 indicted for hiring her, and making the flicks.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

46. A brief history I came across online ... the first three are the original 3 indicted ...

Government prosecutors went ahead with their test cases, under the Federal child pornography statutes. Agent South and producers Ronald Kantor and Rupert McNee won acquittals, but the Government got a conviction against Ruby Gottesman of Xcitement Video.

Then Gottesman’s conviction was overturned, and the statute that allowed conviction without proof that the defendant knew the performer was underaged was ruled unconstitutional. The Government appealed.

In the 1990 United States v. Thomas case, the Ninth Circuit Court had ruled that even if a defendant thought that the performer in question was of legal age, the Government could obtain a conviction.

Finally, on November 29, 1994, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of the Federal child porn law, while ruling that prosecutors must prove defendants had prior knowledge that a performer in question was underaged. The industry breathed a collective sigh of relief–but Rubin Gottesman didn’t; his conviction was upheld. The prosecution had presented evidence that Gottesman had sold hardcore Lords tapes to an undercover L.A. vice cop in 1987, by which time Lords’ former underaged status had become common industry knowledge.

[dilby]

48. Take a child on an Airline and no one knows she ever left the state. N/t

[Hugh_Lebowski]

49. You don't protect yourself all that much by hiding her leaving the state,

but you'd drastically increase your risk by being seen together on tons of video cameras in a secure, federal environment.

I would still think the safest thing if you were going to do this via air travel is have them buy their own ticket and travel alone.