Still Want an EV? Watch this:

[MineralMan]

Electric vehicle fires are a new challenge for firefighters, not to mention owners of EVs:

[USALiberal]

1. Search "car fires" on YouTube! Nt

[Voltaire2]

2. such ridiculous bullshit

You know what sort of vehicles routinely catch fire and when they do frequently explode? Perhaps the ones full of gasoline? Those vehicles?

Meanwhile we now have a viable path to stop using ICE vehicles.

Stop promoting the FUD. It is all from the petro-industrial complex.

"Car Fires Statistics
Each year, from 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths; 1,300 injuries; and $1.1 billion in property loss."
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf

[BornADemocrat]

26. I see 1-2 burned automobiles in a typical year just driving around

Was my 1st thought as well. This is unfair.

[tinrobot]

39. Exactly. I don't understand the EV hatred around here.

I think some people are just too ossified to embrace new technologies, so they lash out.

[Hortensis]

66. What? I've never seen EV hatred or agenda here, and I imagine we all

want one someday, asap for me.

So what on earth is behind such responses? Are electrically powered vehicles part of a new secular religion and examination therefore heresy?

They're new. They're our future. So they and their development are interesting.

[Celerity]

68. DU search works to show this, and there are other posters on this thread saying the same thing

I am not going to start posting a tonne of the OP's past posts and replies but they are easily found.

Making a religion of anything is also not productive, so we agree there.

The EROI for renewables is not nearly enough as well atm, so I am a big advocate for safe, next gen nuclear power. I am sure you have seen NNadir's,(who is an actual physicist), myriad number of great posts and replies on the subject.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/~NNadir

[Hortensis]

70. So, he's interested in the topic. Since you seem very invested,

you should be glad.

Yes, NNadir's posts make very interesting reading, and I also believe those experts who argue that we need nuclear, at very least for some time to come. Then there are the exciting advances in fusion energy...

In any case, I'm glad to hear the poster is not under attack for failing to pay due respect to a new sacred icon. But this kind of personally directed antagonism is inappropriate whatever's behind it.

[Celerity]

74. I absolutely disagree with your framing of it. I am simply stating a fact about their repetitive

EV bashing history. I never once said anything about it before, but seeing others stating the same thing on this thread was enough validation for me to reply about it.

Past is prologue and all that.

[MineralMan]

83. Well, Yes, I'm interested in the technology.

It's just that I'm not an evangelist for EVs. There are issues with them, including fires and the need for vast amounts of lithium that must be mined somewhere. There was an NPR story this morning about a potential lithium shortage soon to come, which will affect battery production.

Finally, there is the issue of creating enough electrical power to charge all of those vehicles, once they become the main type of vehicle. That electricity has to be generated, in one way or another, and the electric grid is already stressed at time, as we saw recently in Texas. In many cases, fossil fuels are burned to generate electricity. Energy is never free, but has to come from somewhere.

Truly, the real change that needs to take place is to cut down on the number of vehicles going from one place to another unnecessarily. That will take a restructuring of how we work, shop, and play.

EVs are interesting, but not everyone is looking at the broader picture. They're looking at the vehicles in isolation. From that point of view, they are very attractive, but there is a background that needs to be examined as well.

I do tend to talk about those background things, rather than the romantic view of a new technology.

[Hortensis]

87. Heavens! So you mean that benefits have costs and that

revolutionary-level changes always create new problems, not all of which can be designed away?

Given some time to think, I now understand the anger. I just hadn't noticed before that electric vehicles were now a factional crusade which required branding mainstream Democrats as against EV. Should have. I mean, gee, where have we seen this before?

Well, facts only reinforce partisan resistance, so of course this thread. But don't imagine the anger means you're feared, MM. Your "hatred" (!) of EV and knuckledragging opposition to technological advances only identifies you as part of the problem along with RW climate deniers. Your faux reality will never shake the commitment of true believers to their great cause. Or to belief that all impediments to development would go away if only they were in charge.

[Voltaire2]

88. wow

that is sad.

I guess Volkswagen GM Ford BMW Mercedes Honda Nissan etc. are all just obsessed with a romantic view of technology.

Not one problem you mentioned blocks conversion to evs. The fire problem, as you now should have learned, is bullshit, and promoting FUD ought to be beneath you.

The lithium shortage is not because there is an actual shortage of lithium but because we need to build out our lithium extraction infrastructure. The real concern is battery cost while that happens. Luckily Tesla and others are making huge improvements in battery efficiency and power that will offset a temporary price hike.

The grid issue is real, but fortunately we have an administration determined to solve this problem as part of its infrastructure bill, isn't that great?

So what are we left with? What is your real concern here?

[Happy Hoosier]

86. DU has a healthy helping of luddites.

Just peruse any tech thread and you'll find a few posts shaking their fists and tech and telling it to get off their lawn.

But I do hope most here embrace moving away from fossil-fuel powered vehicles. We MUST if this planet is to remain habitable.

[Hortensis]

89. Well, I haven't seen many. What I see is a fair number of

people who seem to lack intellectual trip wires to warn them when they're getting silly about something that excites them. Everything's an absolute. Complexity not allowed.

As for this new pejorative, "luddite," my impression is that by far most are strongly addicted to comforts and conveniences and that those who feel they and/or others are being shorted by new advances want more, not less.

[Happy Hoosier]

91. We disagree here a bit...

But I‘ll not press the point. There are times when some folks pontificate about tech subjects in my area of expertise (I have an MS in engineering) and some folks dig in their heels, the facts be damned.

[Hortensis]

93. I believe you, but I haven't read those threads and

just wonder why the heels are dug in, not for a moment that people are disagreeing about whatever's being discussed on social media.

[honest.abe]

48. +1

Thank you for pointing this out.

[indigoth]

3. I wonder

I wonder how many internal combustion engines cars catch fire.

This video doesn’t convince me. In fact, I’d say the obvious “pending disaster” sound track has the opposite effect. Clearly, this video was done with a goal in mind, just like Ralph nader’s “unsafe at any speed” book.

[machoneman]

8. It is a bunch. Older vehicles do catch fire for sure.

Yes, EV's do burn and I think Tesla in particular is working to minimize non-accident fires. Stiil, an EV will not blow up like a gas car so survival is far better in either case (accident or non-accident).

I don't know if states track this data for EVs but agree they should start doing so.

[Voltaire2]

20. 170,000 a year, approximately.

The fed agency NHTSA tracks all of this.

[Claire Oh Nette]

15. Never rains in So Cal...

I drove a '71 Bug. Blew a gasket on the 91 when I was taking classes at Cal State Fullerton. Thick, black smoke as the oil burned off the engine parts. Then, a small fire. On a rainy day.

I had a car fire on a rainy day in Southern California.

[Voltaire2]

80. I had an old saab 96

I had to drive it with a heavy movers blanket handy as the carburetor routinely caught fire. I had to open the hood with the blanket in front of me in case of flame out, and then smother that thing with the blanket, re-adjust the stupid carb, and carry on. I loved that car but it's carburetor was a design malfunction.

[Beaverhausen]

4. ooh...ooh...let me post the video of my husband's Nissan catching fire on the freeway

give me a break here.

I just rode in my first Tesla the other day. It was amazing.

[haele]

5. Small Halon extinguisher setup in the battery compartment.

The battery compartment will need to be insulated to keep the fumes from reaching passengers, and frankly, it won't matter if you can drive it without major maintenance afterwards. What matters is smothering a battery fire before it gets out of control.


Haele

[MichMan]

22. Halon is harmful to the atmosphere, isn't it?

[ProfessorGAC]

49. Yes, But...

....the likelihood of discharge is very low. So, might be acceptable risk.
That said, a pressurized cartridge of salt & sand would smother a metal fire.
We had class D for extinguishers in the lab, because we worked with lithium, sodium, & potassium.
Once covered, it can be scooped up and put into a pail of squalane, which is a high chain, low volatility hydrocarbon. No water, no reactive sites, so no fire.
Later we could pick the metal out and put it back into the cans with oil. The rest can be properly disposed of.
We never had to do it, but we learned how, just in case.

[mahina]

6. I didn't find it very persuasive

Just film of cars on fire which could’ve happened a number of ways.

What exactly was up in the first one with the very young kids in firefighting gear smiling while they watched the white one burn?


What problems does it post to firefighters that regular gas powered cards don’t?

Thanks MineralMan

[hurl]

27. My understanding is

there's a higher risk of electric shock, but I suspect it's still pretty low. I drive an EV, and the motor is barely above room temperature even after hours driving. Most (but not all) EVs have liquid-cooled batteries.

[ProfessorGAC]

50. Lithium Fires Can Not Be Extinguished With Water

The lithium reacts with water, violently, to form lithium hydroxide and hydrogen gas.
Deluging with water could be ok, but insufficient excess of water makes it much worse.
There's already a fire, everything is hot, and we're releasing hydrogen.
Plenty of things could go wrong.
But, halon or an inert powder could be used.
Firefighters will just start having to carry class D equipment.

[Kaleva]

7. Less greenhouse gas emissions and lowers population. A win-win.

[NNadir]

79. This is not even remotely true in many cases.

People like to assume that electricity comes, by magic, solely out of a wall socket.

That's an oblivious belief. Most of the electricity in the world is generated by dangerous fossil fuels, and the fraction so obtained is rising not falling.

The laws of thermodynamics show that a battery is a device that wastes energy.

It has been shown that in some regions of the world, notably China where 100 million electric vehicles exist, mostly scooters but including electric cars, the death toll from the resultant air pollution is actually higher than would have been the case were the transport had used gasoline or gasoline hybrids.

[gratuitous]

10. My Fuji bicycle hasn't burst into flames even once

I'll be keeping a close eye on it, though.

[Voltaire2]

28. do you have a battery in your light?

that could blow the fork up and hurt you. Series.

[beaglelover]

11. Sorry, not buying into this anti EV hype.

Have had my Tesla Model 3 for almost a year and it's the best god damned car I've ever owned in my 40 years of driving. Never going back to an ICE car.

[maxsolomon]

12. Every vehicle is hazardous.

Planes, Tranes, Buses, Trucks, Autos, Motorcycles, Bicycles.

Maybe we should all stay home and mope. Oh wait. We're already doing that.

[FoxNewsSucks]

13. We should ban them!

and better get the hot water heaters and furnaces out of our homes, they BLOW UP! Computer and phone batteries catch fire, we'd better throw them in a dumpster, can't be to careful.

Actually, even before electric cars, electricity has been a problem for rescue workers. They have to look up electrical wiring before using the Jaws of Life to avoid cutting into something that could electrocute them.

It just goes with modern technology. At least we don't have to have a poop bag installed on the back of our cars.

[luckone]

14. Lol I'm so scared now I will never ever consider one 😱

[Xolodno]

16. Well, at least its not a Pinto....

[Shermann]

17. Energy sources can self-destruct and release all the stored energy at once

I don't know of any with the same or greater energy density of li-ion that are totally immune to catastrophic failure. Maybe deuterium fuel for fusion reactors?

If one can't be brought within reasonable safety parameters, it won't be used. This thread doesn't demonstrate otherwise.

[backscatter712]

18. Meh, these kinds of fires are pretty rare.

Yet we've driven around in vehicles fueled by flammable liquids for a century. Been there, done that, lots of car fires to prove it.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

19. We not only wanted one, we have one. A Tesla Model S. It runs like a top.

And I think it's very interesting that you haven't answered any of the posts here in your thread.

Why is that?

Maybe you realize that the video is propaganda.

[madinmaryland]

25. Kind of odd, isn't it...

MM always posts long and detailed posts about whatever he wants to discuss. And he does respond respond to a lot of the responses to his posts.

Hi CP!

[MineralMan]

33. And yet, here I am.

There are many of EV evangelists. Between the environmental impact of lithium mining to evidence that EVs are not exempt from dangerous fires, the evangelism seems a little misplaced, it seems to me.

Environmental issues are environmental issues. Safety issues are safety issues.

Do fossil fuel vehicles sometimes catch fire. Yes they do. Do EVs sometimes catch fire? Yes, they do.

Does the oil industry cause environmental problem? Absolutely. Does mining to produce EV batteries cause environmental problems? You bet. Of course those problems occur in third world countries, so who cares?

Will EVs save the planet? No, they won't. They're just redistributing the damage.

[Silent3]

42. It seems we'd need some comparative statistics here

The fire risk seems like the more straight-forward thing to compare, at least at the level of fires-per-vehicle frequency. Some complication might be added by considering in difficulty in putting out the fires, and monetary cost per fire.

It's much harder to compare fossil-fuel based pollution to battery production and charging pollution. Knowing each has some degree of environmental impact isn't enough, and I'd bet there are some tricky issues of trying to compare apples to oranges involved.

Since lithium battery tech is much newer than fossil fuel tech, there is perhaps reason to hope there's more progress left to be made in mitigating lithium battery related problems.

[tinrobot]

45. You're correct, but no sense arguing with him.

He clings to this outdated belief about EVs like some people cling to their old land lines.

You're not going to change any minds, so best to move on.

[Silent3]

46. I wasn't trying to change minds, or take a particular position

I do happen to own a Chevy Volt, and I'm quite happy with it, but I'm not totally closed to the idea there might be some important problems to consider as electric vehicles become more common.

[Happy Hoosier]

43. This is silly. I am disappointed.

Climate change is the number one environmental threat right now. That‘s a fact. Lithium mining can be done in a responsible way. Fossil fuel cars cannot be made to be carbon friendly. This “scare post” is not cool.

[Tommymac]

75. Sorry, I like a lot of what you post but I disagree with you BIG TIME on this one.

EV's WILL help the planet.

I find this OP to be misleading at best, and as a lot of other's have posted propaganda from Big Oil at worst.

What REALLY needs to happen is MASS TRANSPORTATION.

We need to get rid of our reliance on personal vehicles period. One or tow person's per vehicle, whether it is EV or ICE is just selfish and wrong.

Unfortunately Big Auto has discouraged the development of reliable, widespread and energy efficient/low carbon Mass Transportation since forever in the US. They have backed local City politicians that have voted to build highways not trains and buses.

Pittsburgh is an example. Up until the 1960's Pittsburgh had a thriving PRIVATELY OWNED trolley and bus network...but the Big Auto sponsored County and City Government consolidated it all into a regional Public Transit Authority that has made development and access to public transportation spotty and poor.

[NutmegYankee]

21. The only thing crazier would be driving around with 15 gallons of gasoline under your butt. nt

[Blue_Adept]

23. Did your account get hacked?

Usually it's just folksy stories, not FUD like this.

[MineralMan]

34. You are apparently not reading all of my posts.

[Bonn1997]

24. Scary music + 0 facts equals a weak argument

[NNadir]

29. Only a brave person questions the EV fantasy. It's not about fires however; it's about...

...sustainability.

Electric cars are no more sustainable than gasoline cars, and both types of cars require a healthy dollop of indifference to and contempt for people living in poverty today as well as to future generations.

There isn't enough cobalt on this planet to make the Tesla car - or any lithium battery car - a significant player among the 1 billion vehicles now on this planet.

[MineralMan]

30. That, too.

[blugbox]

31. I mean I could post a compilation video of $150k + exotic cars catching fire too...

This sort of thing has always happened. It's not like they are burning down at some alarming rate.

The scary dramatic music does the job though.

[LanternWaste]

32. Oh, it's you (..,.)

[MineralMan]

36. Yes, it is.

..

[CrackityJones75]

35. Thats some real fine propaganda right there!

[MineralMan]

37. There is a lot of propaganda going around.

What is Elon Musk's net worth? Do you trust him?

[CrackityJones75]

38. Is Elon Musk the only EV maker?

I was unaware.

Without vehicles much of the population dies. Fact. I am not naive enough to know that EV’s also present certain risks and negatives. I happen to believe it is a technology that will either get less damaging or lead to other tech that will continue to reduce the threat to the planet.

But I am sure your youtube video is coming from a purely altruistic angle.

[progressoid]

41. Hahahaha. But you chose this piece of propaganda.

Care to defend it?

[Happy Hoosier]

40. I respect you but this is bullshit.

When I was a firefighter, I once had to pull the bodies of 4 children out of the back of a burned out gasoline vehicle. Gas vehicles burn.

[Mr.Bill]

44. Electric/Hybrid vehicles

have been around in their present form for decades. Even in my small town, firefighters were long ago trained to safely do fire suppression and rescue on electric vehicles.

[tinrobot]

47. I've owned EVs for 11 years and counting. None have caught fire.

Even the EV that was T-boned at 40mph in an intersection. The car was totaled, but no fire.

And I still smile every time I pass a gas station. The last few wars were fought over oil. Don't need to support that any more than necessary.

[MineralMan]

52. Yeah, none my many cars have, either.

Neither of us has any data to contribute based on our own experience.

[tinrobot]

57. Great. We've established that most cars don't blow up.

So... why are we even here, then?

[Liberal In Texas]

61. Because this guy is a EV Luddite and posts anything he can

to dis EVs.

It's getting old.

[Celerity]

65. +1

[Hortensis]

90. Based on his comments about EV, you could call him an alien invader

or ice cream aficionado equally without basis.

He's of course not a "luddite," or against technological change. That's a dishonest pejorative some have grabbed onto because it's both insulting and saves them the trouble of addressing complex technological problems most don't understand. It dishonors them as clearly as trumpists calling Dems commies does them.

The vast majority railing against technological change today, as then, are strong conservatives and workers (especially men) who'd much prefer to sponge at obsolete, worthless jobs than retrain; also some fringe back-to-nature types. Only a very few people are philosophically opposed to advancing technology without underlying fear or selfish interest.

[NickB79]

51. This is the 3rd or 4th anti-EV post I've seen from you in the last 6 months

Yet I haven't seen you propose another alternative to the use of fossil fueled vehicles that are currently cooking the planet.

[JCMach1]

53. Once watched a six digit Ferrari burn to the ground in Dubai... Car fires are a thing, even more so

for ICE vehicles

[MineralMan]

54. It would be interesting to see what percentage of each type

Have caught fire, I think, in the same amount of time.

I don't know if those data are available, though.

I know that GM had to recall a bunch of Bolts due to fires.

[JCMach1]

55. 5 incidents for Bolts... for comparison 1 of every 400 Pontiac Fiero's caught fire

Roughly 57K Bolts were sold through 2019...

That's roughly one fire per every 11K vehicles...

The huge difference these days is how GM responded in reaction...

[tirebiter]

56. My dream vehicle

[MerryHolidays]

59. Here's a Wikipedia page on the topic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicle_fire_incidents

[Voltaire2]

60. And here is the excerpt from the nhtsa

From your link.

The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation.&quot p. 11-2)

[MerryHolidays]

67. Hybrids have gas in them. I'm assuming this quote refers only to pure EVs? nt

[Voltaire2]

72. the wiki page failed to make a distinction, the NHTSA report

is only about the relative danger of battery fires vs ICE (gasoline) fires. And the conclusion is clear: not much difference.

A plugin hybrid is the best of both worlds, right? You can have both a gasoline fire and a battery fire!

[Shellback Squid]

62. it's like the Ford Pinto of the 21st century

[Liberal In Texas]

71. There is no comparison.

[Voltaire2]

81. hey! all you evs get off my lawn!

[Liberal In Texas]

69. Oh look at this, Kia Souls ...

Auto safety group pushes Hyundai, Kia for massive recall of 2.9 million vehicles

Woman who watched son burn to death wants to know why Kia isn't doing more

Center for Auto Safety Demands Recall of 2.9 Million 2011-2014 Kia and Hyundai Vehicles After Almost One Non-Collision Fire Report Every Day for Four Months


Car fires happen to any kind of car. I have seen no proof that EVs have a higher rate of non-collision fires. The video in the OP was intended to make people afraid of EVs.

[634-5789]

73. We own a Chevy Bolt...no complaints!

[Raine]

76. My gas guzzler caught on fire about 5yrs sgo

around the same time I knew of two others cars that caught fire. It can happen no matter what the car runs on.

[Mr. Ected]

77. Duly noted. About to jump in my Model Y and enjoy yet another incredible ride...to work

I am not dissuaded by propaganda disseminated by the manipulators in the oil industry.

Might you have a clip regarding vape pens catching on fire as well? (Marlboro presents....a frightening trend!)

[hatrack]

78. Still want a house? Watch This!

Not sure if their music is as good, admittedly.

[Voltaire2]

82. OMFG

I'm moving to a mudhut right forking now!

[tinrobot]

84. Thank goodness I still live in a cave.

[Happy Hoosier]

85. What is even the purpose of this thread?

Is it to scare people away from EV's, as it appears to be? Because that's all I see here. I can tell you that as I fire fighter I fought a LOT of car fires, including some nasty fatal ones.

This thread is just irresponsible scare mongering.

Hate Elon Musk? I can get that, but that's not a justification for this Republican-style anti-fact nonsense.

[BlueSpot]

92. I don't know the PLANNED purpose

But I'd like to think one effect of it is realizing that simply having a shit-ton of posts on this board doesn't mean someone's opinion is automatically right.

As a low number poster, I would hope the reverse is realized but I have no real hope of it.