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Thu Apr 15, 2021, 05:56 PM

I was driving to the dentist to get my teeth cleaned today...

...and turned my local AM rightwing radio to see what's up with the nutballs.
Couldn't stand it for more than about a minute, but during that time, the local screamer said:
1) Masks are ineffective. Several times. A hundred years of data says so.
2) The vaccines are ineffective and dangerous... a plot to make money for Big Pharma.
3) The Covid body count is inflated. Maybe 100,000 dead, but probably not even that many.
4) This whole pandemic response is just a worldwide attempt at controlling people. and taking their freedom.
5) We can't trust ANYthing the government tells us about this whole thing. Especially Dr. Fauci. He's making money from the vaccines.

My question: At what point does "free speech" become "yelling fire in a crowded theater"? At what point does this kind of damaging mis-information become too much for our country to bear?

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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply I was driving to the dentist to get my teeth cleaned today... (Original post)
albacore Apr 2021 OP
elleng Apr 2021 #1
Chin music Apr 2021 #7
MerryHolidays Apr 2021 #9
MerryHolidays Apr 2021 #11
ShazzieB Apr 2021 #14
ShazzieB Apr 2021 #16
wnylib Apr 2021 #20
mahatmakanejeeves Apr 2021 #32
doc03 Apr 2021 #2
calimary Apr 2021 #44
doc03 Apr 2021 #55
Kath2 Apr 2021 #3
pwb Apr 2021 #4
Skittles Apr 2021 #5
Permanut Apr 2021 #10
billh58 Apr 2021 #18
Haggard Celine Apr 2021 #6
stillcool Apr 2021 #8
bucolic_frolic Apr 2021 #12
mac2766 Apr 2021 #13
whopis01 Apr 2021 #38
barbtries Apr 2021 #15
AmBlue Apr 2021 #17
hay rick Apr 2021 #19
wnylib Apr 2021 #23
Native Apr 2021 #21
wnylib Apr 2021 #24
Native Apr 2021 #27
wnylib Apr 2021 #28
Native Apr 2021 #29
wnylib Apr 2021 #30
Native Apr 2021 #42
wnylib Apr 2021 #43
Native Apr 2021 #46
wnylib Apr 2021 #48
Native Apr 2021 #49
wnylib Apr 2021 #50
Native Apr 2021 #52
wnylib Apr 2021 #53
Native Apr 2021 #56
DownriverDem Apr 2021 #22
Cobalt Violet Apr 2021 #25
wnylib Apr 2021 #26
Name removed Apr 2021 #31
MissMillie Apr 2021 #33
Evolve Dammit Apr 2021 #34
BoringUsername Apr 2021 #35
Submariner Apr 2021 #36
Snackshack Apr 2021 #37
BobTheSubgenius Apr 2021 #39
live love laugh Apr 2021 #40
AwakeAtLast Apr 2021 #41
Hortensis Apr 2021 #45
Schmice3 Apr 2021 #47
Roc2020 Apr 2021 #51
Crunchy Frog Apr 2021 #54

Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 05:57 PM

1. Sadly, Supremes decided lies are OK.

The U.S. Supreme Court recently issued a significant First Amendment freedom of speech case in United States v. Xavier Alvarez (decided June 28, 2012), which has received little attention in the mainstream media. The decision, by a divided Court, is contrary to a long line of prior Supreme Court cases recognizing that the First Amendment simply does not protect lies - knowingly false statements of fact that serve no legitimate interest.

https://www.macdonaldillig.com/resources/article/u-s-supreme-court-finds-a-constitutional-right-to-lie

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Response to elleng (Reply #1)


Response to elleng (Reply #1)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:33 PM

9. Doesn't this case specifically exclude fraud and defamation from its holding?

I confess that I only read the link you provided, not the actual case.

I frankly don't care about "lies". I care about lies that hurt someone, and, at least from what I can gather from the snippet in the link, that's the distinction, as SCOTUS specifically draws the line at defamation or fraud.

A lie, in a vacuum, hurts no one. By contrast, a lie that leads to defamation or fraud does hurt someone.

If I said I was the handsomest person on earth (besides Vladimir Putin, who is clearly the sexiest fellow in Russia ), I don't hurt anyone except me, probably, as most would realize the foolishness of that statement and of me. Vlad, too, might be aggrieved and serve me a cup of tea or have some of his friends near the next open window that I at. If, however, I lie to you and say I will fix your water heater perfectly since I have fixed 1000 water heaters, when, in fact, I have fixed 0 water heaters, you probably can sue me for fraud or the government can nail me for a consumer protection violation.

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Response to MerryHolidays (Reply #9)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:40 PM

11. Note that Scalia, Thomas, and Alito dissented in this case

That's enough for me to say that the majority in the SCOTUS case was correct!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Alvarez

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Response to MerryHolidays (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:03 PM

14. Wow, yeah, that says it all!

Any time that gruesome threescore agree on something...I don't need to know anything else!

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Response to MerryHolidays (Reply #11)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:06 PM

16. Wow, yeah, that says it all!

Any time that gruesome threescore agree on something and no one else agrees with them...I don't need to know anything else!

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Response to MerryHolidays (Reply #9)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:57 PM

20. So wouldn't Fauci have a valid case for

defamation regarding the claim that he is making money off of the vaccine?

And less specific so harder to prove, people who did not wear masks or get vaccines and then got covid might sue for being lied to since the lies caused harm.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #20)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 08:21 AM

32. He's a public figure. The bar is much higher. Here's another one that won't go anywhere:

VenmoCrimingHat Retweeted

performative legal suits have replaced baseball as the national pastime on the alternate reality right


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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:03 PM

2. If one person yells fire in a theater it is far different than one person with a microphone

yelling it to thousands or millions. I guess Reagan doing away with the Fairness Doctrine is partially responsible.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #2)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 12:51 PM

44. Yep. He sure did.

But then again, a LOT of the ills America faces today, from the “trickle-down” deceit to “the nine most dangerous words in the English language are ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help” are his legacy-from-Hell.

Fuck you, ronnie.

A lot of what we have to undo and overturn and cancel outright got its start under ronald reagan. He may be the worst, most short-sighted, selfish, mercenary, and recklessly damaging influence on America in modern times. He somehow made our most hideous aberrations “patriotic.” And even “godly”.

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Response to calimary (Reply #44)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 03:55 PM

55. Reagan also killed off defined benefit pension plans, started taxing SS and un-employment benefits

and started the war on labor unions. Reagan was the single most destructive president ever for the
working class.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:04 PM

3. I tune in every day for a few moments on my commute to work.

What you listed is their mantra. And it is very disturbing and unhealthy.

And the barely disguised racism and sexism is a constant.

I can't believe people still gravitate to this garbage.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:06 PM

4. You are free not to listen.

That's how it works. Stay away is the best advice. The Fairness Doctrine needs a new look at. Reagan fucked that up.

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Response to pwb (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:10 PM

5. I think they understand that they are "free not to listen"

the issue is, is it still considered "free speech" if it ACTIVELY HARMS people - and spreading disinformation about Covid is a threat to everyone

this isn't really opinions, these are flat-out LIES

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Response to pwb (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:34 PM

10. I listen for a few minutes just about every day..

I want to know what kind of lies they're using today to brainwash the cult.

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Response to pwb (Reply #4)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:31 PM

18. Yes, of course

we are all free to not listen to anything. When "free speech" becomes incitement and/or sedition, however, how are we able to be free from the ramifications of an attack on our government by those who have been radicalized by that same "free speech" if we do nothing?

It isn't a matter of simply ignoring the radical right-wing seditionists, it is a matter of confronting them and presenting the truth in order to protect our constitutional democracy. It is a matter of denouncing and eradicating hatred, bigotry, and racism in all of its forms.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:13 PM

6. We're at that point. We might even be past it.

There's been so much damage done by the RW press and Former Guy. It's gone so far that the damage might be irreparable. There are scumbags out there who see this as their opportunity to start a civil war or a race war, same difference. If they ever get close to 50% support again, I think they'll make their move. We can't let that happen.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:18 PM

8. some of the whacko's running around

have been listening to that stuff from the time they were born. Sure helps in understanding why so many people are so delusional. Julius Streicher would be so proud.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 06:41 PM

12. We limit fraud in lots of endeavors

Financial assets, interest rates, fiduciary advice, contracts.

So I'm not ok with the perpetuation of fraud for self-benefit.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:02 PM

13. "AM" Radio....

 

Thanks for the info. I've been looking for the source of my families mis-information. I thought it was all FOX "news", but I just couldn't seem to reconcile that.

I simply texted 3 members of my family that I had received my vaccination(s). On the 1st text a month ago (1st shot). One sister started ignoring me. After the 2nd, the other two have. I spoke with my brother yesterday. He mentioned that President Biden "is an idiot". I asked him why. He didn't have an answer, but I did hear his girlfriend screaming that it's because "He's letting all of those Mexicans into the country".

It's a sad time in America. I agree that something needs to be done. Freedom of speech is something to behold.

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Response to mac2766 (Reply #13)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 10:43 AM

38. AM Radio is far worse than Fox News

The people who have these shows are playing characters. The more extreme they can be, the more successful they are. They are shock jocks with a political themed show.

I believe that many of them don't believe in what they are saying, or even really care about it. They are putting on a show to generate an audience. It is the Jerry Springer / Howard Stern approach to politics.

They have learned that it is easier to keep people on your side by pointing to someone else and talking about how they are the enemy. They never offer a better solution, only rant about what is wrong with the other side. Like the OP said - "You can't trust the government", "Fauci is making money off of vaccines", "masks are ineffective", etc., etc., etc. It is easier to make people hate someone else than to make them love you.

You are correct, it is a sad time in America.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:04 PM

15. I think we passed that point.

We must find a way to distinguish between free speech and free propaganda. People have died and more will. There has to be a way to return to the days when we all existed within the same reality.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:21 PM

17. A little over 4 years ago

As evidenced by the orange turd that got to squat in our White House and kill hundreds of thousands of people with a pandemic that he politicized on the daily. Among other things...

The vitriol of falsehoods spewed from R-wing talk radio should be illegal.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 07:43 PM

19. Our democracy IS that crowded theater. nt

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Response to hay rick (Reply #19)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 08:05 PM

23. +1000.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 08:01 PM

21. Don't forget sex with demons - that's what actually causes Covid. And alien DNA in the vaccines!

Seriously, my doc actually mentioned several points in your list (believes some of that bullshit). Needless to say, I'm finding a new doctor.

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Response to Native (Reply #21)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 08:06 PM

24. A DOCTOR??? O.M.G.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #24)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 09:38 PM

27. Yup. MD, Internist.

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Response to Native (Reply #27)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 10:03 PM

28. I was astounded one day while in the waiting room

of a urologist. I picked up a magazine that had been mailed to him, so he apparently had a subscription. It was from the Unification Church (Moonies). I flipped through it and found such irrational, cultist stuff in it that I lost complete confidence in the doctor's intellect and never went back.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #28)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 10:12 PM

29. It's amazing how many well educated and intelligent people fall for such crap.

And another doctor of mine today, when I told her about this doctor, told me about another one in Tampa who is just as bad - a complete anti-vaxxer, doesn't believe it's a pandemic, and still touts hydroxychloroquine.

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Response to Native (Reply #29)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 11:05 PM

30. OMG. Grounds for malpractice IMO.

Education is totally wasted on some people. They regurgitate the right answers to pass tests, but never develop sound reasoning ability.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #30)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 12:19 PM

42. Both doctors are board certified internists but also naturopaths

So while they have some ideas/beliefs I'm clearly at odds with, they also have a lot of good to offer. We need more doctors to take the time to address why we might be suffering from our ailments rather than just throwing a drug at us. Finding doctors who do take more time with their patients to address problems naturally (lifestyle changes, diet, etc) when feasible before prescribing meds is almost impossible these days. Remember when doctors would suggest patients modify their diets to treat their high blood pressure or high cholesterol? Who does that anymore? Give a patient a prescription, and you know they'll be coming back in regularly for office visits, address the root cause and get them to make corrections, they don't need to see you again to get that Rx refilled. You can also get your patient in and out of the office quicker if you simply write that Rx. That's one of the reasons I'd like to see nationalized health care here. If there's a simple at home cure or fix, you'll be told about it because it's a cheaper remedy. Like D-Mannose for UTIs or pumpkin oil for an overactive bladder or psyllium for high cholesterol or natural desiccated thyroid hormone instead of Synthroid. I mean the list goes on and on! I think it's interesting that you see more internists go the naturopathic route than other specialists. Kind of makes sense tho.

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Response to Native (Reply #42)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 12:47 PM

43. Who even sees a doctor any more?

In my community, seeing a real doctor is rare unless it's a specialist for a specific issue. All the primary care offices are conglomerates of 2 or 3 docs with numerous nurse practitioners and physician assistants. I've been with the same office for 10 years. I have seen a doctor there twice. A PA or NP can do a good job for most things, but it just feels silly that I have never seen my officially designated doctor listed on my Medicare Advantage card. Haven't a clue what he looks like or where he is. It's a huge practice that sprawls across the entire county. I think he is in a town 40 miles away and practices in a hospital there rather than the one in my city.

Regarding home remedies and alternatives to pharmaceuticals, there are good and bad points about it. I have refused statins for cholesterol that my previous PA prescribed. My current NP agrees with me that it's under control by diet. But, I have been taking Synthroid for 20+ years and it works. Dessicated liver does not always provide a consistent, controlled measure dose and I would not take it. I have, however, reduced the necessary dose of Synthroid through improved diet.

Pharma and alternatives should be balanced, IMO. Alternatives require informed decisions from reliable sources. Too often they are used in a new agey way, based on word of mouth popularity rather than on evidence from controlled studies.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #43)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 01:27 PM

46. NDT gives you the complete thyroid hormone package, T4, 3, 2 &1.

Some people do really well on Synthroid but terribly on NDT, while some people are not helped at all by Synthroid and need that T3. But so many endocrinologists won't even consider NDT hormone. I can't tell you how many message boards I've been on where people say they are doing great on Synthroid while others aren't being helped by it at all, and for many of those people, their docs flat out refuse to give them a prescription for NDT. And the story always ends with them finally finding an endocrinologist who will actually facilitate the desiccated hormone for them. What bothers me is that it's not even an option for so many doctors. And when the AACE came out with new guidelines as to when someone should be considered deficient, it took like 10 years before you could find an endocrinologist who would actually go by the new guidelines. So here you are, unable to hold down a job much less get off the couch to walk across the room because you're so freaking exhausted, but you don't need thyroid medication because your levels are fine! It was a complete shit show that I had to live through. I wasn't as bad off as so many other people, but I couldn't drive in the afternoons because I'd fall asleep at the wheel. Btw, the days of NDTs not being consistent dosage wise is basically pharma speak to get one to not use the cheaper, natural drug and to buy theirs. It's been used for over a 100 years, so there definitely was a time when dosage was all over the place, but not today! But you'll still hear some (not all) endocrinologists say that.

And speaking of never seeing an actual doctor.... we have quite the racket going here in SUNNY Florida. The ticket is to open a dermatology practice and then hire 10-15 PAs to work "under you" in separate locations as far and wide as possible. Their main priority is the punch biopsy to rule out skin cancer. The PA sees 8 suspicious spots and performs those lucrative biopsies, most of which are overkill (we have quite a few practices that are known to be "overly aggressive". If any of them come back positive for cancer, the lone "MD" can perform the surgery when she makes her once a month visit to that location, assuming the PA can't handle things, or you can make the trip to the main office 3 counties over if you don't want to wait. It really is quite the lucrative set up.

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Response to Native (Reply #46)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 01:59 PM

48. My med office is run the same way

as the dermatologists that you mentioned, except is a general practice. I have finally found an NP there who is good and refuse to be scheduled with anyone else.

Regarding the TSH lab ranges, I went through hell for several years at a different med office because the doctor there would not accept the newer standards. I could not function or hold a job because he would not raise my dose enough. Then one of the PAs decided to raise it and calculated a dose too high. I saw the TSH on my labs going steadily far too low, but despite the obvious pattern, they refused to lower the dose it until the labs came out overactive.

It got worse - too complicated for here - so I left for the office I go to now. They accept the new lab standards for TSH. The NP that I am seeing also accepts that people vary within that range. I feel best between 1 and 2. She accepts that as valid and works with me to keep it there. There are no endocrinologists in my area. The last one retired 5 years ago. Too bad, because she was really good.

I pay out of pocket for the Synthroid brand name because my insurance will only cover generic. I found that the generic did not work for me. It was like taking a sugar pill.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #48)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 02:12 PM

49. And to think that, what do they say, like 1/3 of all Americans have a thyroid problem?

And the docs can't even get their shit together enough to recognize new standards when they are anything but new? And God forbid they should treat you based on your symptoms, regardless of how life destroying they are. People are still being told by professionals that it's all in their heads! It reminds me of the days when debilitating cramps were all in our heads too. Oh and newborns couldn't feel pain. I'm so sorry you went through all of that. Thank God you are smart enough and savvy enough to have kept pushing them and not giving in.

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Response to Native (Reply #49)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 02:27 PM

50. It was a hell of a struggle for me

because I had the typical thyroid brain fog so I had to work through that to find the facts that I needed online. I knew something was wrong and had to figure it out myself. At its worst, my eybrows nearly disappeared and my thick hair got thin. My face puffed out like a full moon. The skin around my fingernails got hard enough to use nail clippers on it, as if the skin was nail, too. I slept constantly and felt exhausted when awake. Had chronic muscle aches in my back and shoulder.

Yet the doc kept saying I was fine because my TSH was "within the guidelines." I went from being an active multitasker to a zombie.

I lost a career because of it and had to put my life back together when I finally got it under control.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #50)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 03:23 PM

52. That's horrible! It makes me so sad and so damn angry that you had to go thru all of that!

I bet Mary Shoman made a nice chunk of change working as an advocate for people experiencing what you went thru. There are so many of us!

I was finally diagnosed with Hashimoto's based on my most recent labs, so I've now cut out most all gluten, and I've started red light therapy, and both seem to be helping; my "enlarged" thyroid has shrunken dramatically in just 3 months. Should have started the light therapy sooner. So much fun!

Oh, bonus - the light has helped my eyebrows, go figure!

I'm so glad you got your life back!

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Response to Native (Reply #52)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 03:34 PM

53. It was Mary Shoman's online articles

that helped me see what was going on and what I needed to do about it.
.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #53)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 05:13 PM

56. Me too!

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 08:01 PM

22. I wish I knew

If more of us vote we can force out those in government who are repub. The extreme RW that want to destroy our government & did try on Jan 6th, must be found, charged & punished.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 08:10 PM

25. It's already gone beyond that point imo.

The body count from decades of this is really much great than all the crowded theater fires put together.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Thu Apr 15, 2021, 08:16 PM

26. We could also fight back with our own

culture war. Real culture - music, films, TV programs - that have broad appeal with rational themes. I don't mean the kind of stuff that looks and sounds like poitical spin, but music and stories with lyrics, plots, characters that are likeable and entertaining for their rational character, humor, community responsibility. Promote our own values in popular culture.

A fun quiz shiw, perhaps, would require contestants to spot the difference between conspiracy and fact.

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Response to albacore (Original post)


Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 09:10 AM

33. Same nutjob who says can't trust what the government says

would probably argue that the Orange One is an honest man.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 09:10 AM

34. Four decades of Limbaugh provided the model for this shit. It's everywhere now. nt

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 09:35 AM

35. I'm trying to figure out how this sort of "control" is benefitting

any government in any way other than the stated purpose of controlling COVID-19. Why would they want to wreck their economies for no reason? These right wing conspiracy theories make no sense.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 10:09 AM

36. I hope you stay well

you've got a ton more guts than I do to dare take your mask off with people hovering around your open mouth, not knowing if the dentist or numerous dental techs in the office have breathed out a Brazilian or South African or UK virus variant out their loose masks.

Good luck.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 10:32 AM

37. It has already become.

Something that is too much for our country to bear. Clearly the population is not equipped to filter out false, misleading, dangerous information. 577,000+ dead Americans is proof of that. It would be good to see the FCC step in and address this glaring issue but I doubt they will.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 11:12 AM

39. Someone in the public eye - or "ear" so to speak - should have the right to say such idiocy.

But only after they are rigorously vetted to see if they've been vaxed, then maybe given a dose of one of the nasty variants. THAT will give them some credibility on the issue.

Remember when Christopher Hitchens, among others, allowed themselves to be water-boarded? Like that. I once worked for a Christo-fascist RWNJ who used to declaim water-boarding as a sort of analog to a morning shower. Offered to let me try it on him.

DAMN, I wish I had. I have no idea where this guy is now, other than "somewhere" in town. Horrible person.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 11:12 AM

40. I wonder the same thing. How is speech free when it costs lives? nt

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 11:45 AM

41. Only Darwin is left to decide now

If they keep spewing that rhetoric, they WILL find out the hard way considering the mutations.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 01:01 PM

45. When the first lie or "influence narrative" deceived a significant

portion of people in the targeted population.

I believe we need laws against this and special investigators and courts to determine when they should apply and to protect free speech and the press while applying them. Definitions and what #s would trigger them to be established by careful studies, but there are plenty of studies to build on, and they're doing this kind of thing in some other nations, so we wouldn't be starting from scratch.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 01:40 PM

47. switch the channel.

Hope the teeth cleaning went well. They are everywhere. They live in a reality-adjacent world. Too bad that world isn't located in the Phantom Zone or in the city of Kandor in the Fortress of Solitude

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 03:19 PM

51. There was a time when

I would tune into to right wing news just to hear what the opposition was saying. I can't even for a minute now because all I hear are nut conspiracy theories, propaganda or outright lies. Pretty amazing how far the right is in cuckoo land now.

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Response to albacore (Original post)

Fri Apr 16, 2021, 03:46 PM

54. I believe it's already too much for our country to bear.

I don't believe we're going to survive this as an intact country.

The Rwanda genocide began with hate radio. I don't believe that Americans are fundamentally different from Rwandans.

If our country breaks up into separate republics, I hope the sane ones will put a lid on that crap.

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