Some Claiming Cop Was Justified To Murder Adam Toledo

[WHITT]

Cop: SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!

Adam:



Cop: Shoots unarmed 13-year-old Adam in the chest.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

1. There is absolutely nothing justified about the execution of this 13 yo kid,

NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!

[Kaleva]

2. Freepers are saying the real, unedited video shows he had a gun in his hand.

[WHITT]

8. Heh

It's police bodycam video. Are they claiming the police dept edited the video a disappeared a gun?

[Kaleva]

37. They are saying the Chicago mayor's office edited the video in order to blame the police

[WHITT]

38. The Problem There

is any video outside the police dept would be copies. The original would be stored, either by the dept (unlikely), in the cloud, or by a third-party contractor. Therefore, they could easily prove that another version of the video had been edited. They can't.

[ProfessorGAC]

3. His Hands Look Clearly Empty

Not just up, but empty.
They're both clearly visible and fully lit. And, that camera isn't as sharp as the eye.

[Hoyt]

4. Man, I don't know. That photo looks damning for police, the photo one second before not so much.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2021/4/15/22383392/adam-toledo-shooting-video-released-chicago-police-bodycam

The article shows the photo above, then the photo one second before.

[Fullduplexxx]

5. Webpage not available The webpage at https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Ub_aAXDl8PcF19A8v9bhdQhjmG4/0x

Webpage not available
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net::ERR_HTTP_RESPONSE_CODE_FAILURE

[Hoyt]

6. Corrected. You have to go to the Chicago Sun Times link. the photos won't reproduce here. Sorry.

[WHITT]

10. But

it takes longer than a second to yell 'SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!'.

The Police Union claiming the cop only had "milliseconds" to act with his life threated.

SUCH BULLSHIT.

[Hoyt]

13. I'm not sure. He had what sure looks like a pistol at 2:38:39 and the other photo is 2:38:40.

Depends on when the running officer fired. Hopefully someone credible will pinpoint that.

I am definitely biased in that if someone is carrying a gun -- don't care if it's a trump loving white wing POS marching with a confederate flag or whoever -- they are a threat to society. I'd prefer socioeconomic conditions were better to avoid people taking up firearms and police were selected and trained differently, but those aren't the issues here.

I'm glad the police pursued the teenager with a gun -- not knowing his age or anything about him.

I wish the policeman saw it as we do looking at still photos. I want to hear more. I think the Mayor of Chicago and prosecutor will do the right thing. And maybe a jury is the only way to decide.

But I'm sick of guns, whether some white wing racist is carrying one or some criminal.

[lapucelle]

15. BBC has the bodycam video. Elapsing time is shown in the upper right hand corner.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56768217

[Hoyt]

20. Thank you. Best video I've seen. It sure looks to me like the OP is at 20:38:40 and the shot was

fired at 2:38:40 also. In fact, I'd almost bet the bullet is on the way in the OP photo. And he had a gun at 2:38:39.

Maybe forensics can pinpoint it.

I just don't think this case is comparable to many of the others recently -- certainly no Chauvin who, even if one accepts Floyd needed restraint, still crushed his neck for over 9 minutes too long.

[Mr.Bill]

7. He didn't have time to make the right decision.

He apparently did have enough time to aim.

[WHITT]

9. Clown From The Police Union

is not only saying it was justified, but that the cop is "a hero".

I kid you not.

These people are SICK.

[RockRaven]

11. If cops are going to shoot and kill people who follow their orders anyway, what's the incentive

for people to comply?

Cops need to realize how much worse for themselves things will be as a result of reflexively defending killings like this.

[WHITT]

18. Exactly

Cop yelled 'show me your hands'. The kid showed him his hands. The cop shot him. What the hell was the point of saying 'show me your hands' then?

[luckone]

12. Happened less than 20 seconds after the officer got out of his car. A witness claims to have seen

everything and city officials have been giving inconsistent statements on what happened that night since he was shot March 29th to Chicago citizens . This includes saying there was an armed confrontation , or he had a gun in his hand when shot and even in court a prosecutor made false statements This has been what was released in the news’s about the shooting for over 2 weeks
......
As for Stillman, he has four use-of-force reports and three complaints filed against him since 2017, according to Chicago Block Club. His lawyer, Tim Grace, claims Adam was holding a gun at the time he was shot, but the video footage says otherwise. One of the bodycam videos shows that a gun was tossed and found near Adam’s body, but the video shows that it wasn’t in the boy’s hands.

Margarita Gomez, 61, was up the night when Adam was killed and saw everything from the beginning, according to the Chicago Sun-Times. She went to her window after hearing gunshots and saw the police car pull up and grab a 21-year-old man who was allegedly with Adam. Then she saw Stillman chasing the boy and shouting at him.
From her second floor apartment, Gomez says she saw everything and didn’t believe it was necessary for the cop to kill Adam.

Several days after the shooting, a detective went to Gomez’s apartment to get her account of what happened and told her that it was impossible for her to see into the alley where the shooting took place.
Gomez is sticking to her story.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2021/4/15/22386422/adam-toledo-shooting-neighbor-eyewitness-video-released-little-village

https://www.theroot.com/bodycam-footage-contradicts-chicago-police-narratives-a-1846697877

[ItsjustMe]

14. The Fatal Police Shooting of 13-Year-Old Adam Toledo (Video)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017652100

[Mysterian]

16. If we accidentally killed a civilian in combat in the infantry

There would be a more strenuous investigation of the killing than the killing of US citizens by poorly trained police officers.

[NH Ethylene]

17. It sure looks bad with this picture! But there seems to be more to the story.

But when viewing the videos I think the cop shot because he saw that arm coming around from in back of him (on the way to being raised as we now see), an arm which seemingly held a gun in it just seconds before. By the time the cop reacted with a shot, the boy was all the way around looking like this.

It's horrible. Such a young kid. But I think it looked to that cop in that instant that he was about to be shot at. He must have seen the boy surrendering just as he was firing the shot, not enough time to react and prevent the killing. To his credit, he rushed over to try and save the child (which seems like a given, but we've seen that cop shooting victims are left to die without medical attention).

Too often the events leading up to are laced with racist harassment, and the whole situation could have been avoided in the first place. But this was a response to shots fired and by gang members with guns. These are the incidents that I still want cops to deal with, to protect innocent people from stray bullets, just for starters (although it would be great if in conjunction with initiatives to help community youth stay out of gangs).

[PufPuf23]

19. At best, the cop that killed Adam made a serious mistake.

Such a serious mistake that the cop should have no future in LE, should not be able to possess or use fire arms, and should be convicted and serve a sentence for involuntary manslaughter.

My opinion is delusional regards current reality.

The only way to get quality policing of society is by law enforcement and the law enforcement management create a quality situatio0n for the citizens.

Law enforcement in the USA has exhibited scant inclination towards policing their own actions.

The problem is who becomes police and the self re-enforcement of the toxic.

[WarGamer]

21. Watch the video

At 02:38:39 you can see a gun behind his back One second later the hands come up after pitching the gun and the shot rings out.

The time between the gun being in his hand, behind his back and the shooting?

838 milliseconds.

[Arazi]

22. 12 yr old Tamir Rice was slaughtered in under 2 seconds for a toy

Cops just assume a black/brown kid man woman is dangerous and murder them even if they've complied within seconds.

It's sickening.

Anybody defending this racist shit should be ashamed

[Humanist_Activist]

23. Exactly, same justification was used against him as well, its sickening. n/t

[StarfishSaver]

32. There's always an excuse

Some white people are willing to make themselves look like idiots rather than just admit that a system that they think works for them is inherently racist and causes great damage to people of color.

And that willingness is not limited to one side of the political spectrum.

[Humanist_Activist]

34. True, I'm a Socialist, and the amount of people...

who are class reductionist on my side, to the exclusion of other systems and means of oppression is staggering.

Police violence isn't constrained to the poor, and rich person of color can just as easily be a victim of police and institutional violence as a poor person of color.

[StarfishSaver]

25. This

The swarm of people defending this on DU is disgusting.

[uponit7771]

40. +1,

[tcslee2020]

24. Should not have turned around

I think the problem here is that he turned around very quickly. He was not told to turn around, he was told to put his hands up. I think by turning real fast like he did, that is what caused the cop to shoot.

Cop responded to shots fired. He chases a suspect down a dark alley. he believes that Toledo has a gun, which he does. We don't know if the cop saw the gun, but he does have it up until 2 seconds before he is shot. As far as the cop knew he still had the gun because he did not see him throw the gun away 1 second before putting his hands up and spinning around.

I have seen other people post that the order the cop should have given was to get on the ground, but I do believe that the the last thing that cop wanted was the suspect to spin around like that. That is too fast and unpredictable a move to make, especially when you have not been told to turn around.

Yes he put his hands up, but the turn around IS a factor in this that can't be ignored.

[StarfishSaver]

26. "He shouldn't have turned around"?

Are you effing kidding me?

Cops are given a pass because they were scared and "in fear of their lives" but a frightened13-year-old civilian was supposed to have the presence of mind to know not to "turn around" when being yelled at in the dark by someone he couldn't see.

Bullshit.

Aside from the fact that the kid shouldn't be blamed for his own death because "he turned around," given the split second between ordering him to put his hands up and shooting him, it's clear the cop didn't shoot him because he turned around. He would likely have shot him whether he turned around and or not. And if a suspect turning around - a very natural and probably very common reaction in such a situation - wasn't anticipated and was enough to set off the cop, he doesn't need to be in the job.

Sick of these excuses and attempts to blame this child for the actions of a cop who is fully and solely to blame for this killing.

[tcslee2020]

27. He wasn't ordered by the cop to turn around

No, I'm not kidding.

People here are claiming he complied with the officer. I feel that by turning around he was not following the orders of the officer. And it wasn't a casual turn around, it was a very fast turn around. If you were a cop would you want a suspect spinning around that fast like that?

I am all for police reform, I just don't feel that this particular case is the best example to be used to show the need for reform.

[Arazi]

28. Adam is 13 years old and you're expecting perfect compliance?

This just takes the fucking cake. Seriously

I can't even

[tcslee2020]

30. No

No, I'm not expecting perfect compliance. Turning around to face the cop would probably be most peoples natural instinct.

It's clear from the videos that the kid ditched the gun, but he did so out of view of the cop. So the cop had to think that the suspect still had the gun, no?

I'm just saying that from the cop's point of view it is not that clear. The cop yells to put his hands up. the kid doesn't exactly do that and spins around.

It's just a bad situation all around. Both people made mistakes here. Do I think this cop deserves jail, no. Should he lose his job, I don't know, probably. I don't think he murdered, or as some people are saying assassinated the kid.

It seems that most people here want the cop to be perfect. Isn't that too a high standard? Chasing a suspect with a gun down a dark alley is a very stressful situation. It's a split second decision for the cop to make. Look at the video from the shooting last week of the cop in NM. This stuff happens way to fast to expect perfection, and that is why you don't screw around shooting at cars in the middle of the night.

[StarfishSaver]

33. A veteran cop should know that it's very likely a person will turn around when he orders him

to put up his hands. If Adam turning around while trying to comply with the commands screamed at him in the dark so freaked out this cop that he immediately shot him, he needs to be removed from duty and prosecuted.

If people think being killed is just punishment for the mistakes that Adam made, surely being prosecuted is a just punishment for the "mistake" this cop made that resulted in someone's death.

[Arazi]

35. Eric Stillman has been a CPD cop for 6 years

Enough time to be a "shoot first, ask questions " later kind of cop.

Why are you giving this white, experienced , trained cop the benefit of the doubt but won't extend it to the brown boy?

Its infuriating

[StarfishSaver]

31. Cops can make all kinds of mistakes, even ones that end up with people dead, because they're

stressed, it was dark, they were scared, they feared for their lives and no one should blame them...

But children and other civilians must behave perfectly at all times, think clearly, and do everything just right or else they will get blown away and it's all their fault.

[Sunsky]

29. Well said nt

[WHITT]

39. No

I think the problem here is that he turned around very quickly. He was not told to turn around, he was told to put his hands up.

He was told to "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS". If your back is turned and you're told to "put up your hands", you put up your hands. But if your back is turned and you're told to "show me your hands", the only way to do that is to turn around and show your hands.

[gulliver]

36. The root cause is, of course, the Republican Drug War, a continuation of the Civil War and slavery

It causes over-policing. That causes bad cops and awful decisions.

[SYFROYH]

41. I've shifted to empathizing with the cop.

In less than one sec these things happen:


1. The gun is visible in Adams hand
2. Adam turns and tosses gun which is not visible from POV of cop
3. As Adam brings his right hand up it’s horizontal to ground and you can’t see if the gun is still in his hand or not.
4. I think this is the point that the cop decides to shoot which takes 50+ milliseconds to process
5. Adam’s hands are up and clear as the cops gun fires.

Still I think a trial needs to happen where facts are judged by a jury and they get to decide what is a reasonable response.

[wellst0nev0ter]

42. Cops say "drop it"

He drops it, but cops shoot anyways.

You think this is a reasonable response?

[SYFROYH]

43. If the cop could not see it be dropped, then maybe yes.

Especially if he could see it in his hand less than a second previously.

Again, I still think the reasonableness needs to be decided in a court of law with a jury. Not by me.

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. That excuse died with Laquan McDonald

Although I suppose certain suburbanites will still buy it.

[SYFROYH]

46. I'm not sure how that is relevant here

Wasn’t McDonald walking away with a knife not a gun?

[wellst0nev0ter]

48. McDonald was HOLDING A DEADLY WEAPON!!1

That didn't fly, and neither does this.

[SYFROYH]

49. I don't see how the cops could see McDonald as an imminent threat at all

I can see how the cop thought Adam was an imminent threat of him shooting within .5 seconds.

[wellst0nev0ter]

51. They also thought Tamir Rice was an imminent threat

It was a bullshit excuse then, and it is bullshit now.

[WHITT]

44. Once Again

It takes longer than a second to shout "STOP! SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!".

It was not a split-second life-threatening situation. At no time was a gun even pointed in the direction of the cop.

~

I'm starting to wonder if the 'show me your hands' utterance was nothing more than a cover-his-ass excuse for the audio recording, and he had already intended to shoot the kid. A lot of these cops have Southern plantation-owner mentalities, that POC who don't comply with their orders and commands must be punished.

[SYFROYH]

47. The sequence I described happened after the cop said all that.

At the beginning of Adam spinning he only says “drop it”.

[WHITT]

50. By Then

both of his empty hands were up.

[SYFROYH]

52. It looks like he is still spinning around as I see it.

And his right hand is not up yet.