I fully understand that this post is likely to draw very intense personal criticism but, at my age,

[Atticus]

I speak my mind without any concern about what others may say.

I do not know what was in the mind of the Chicago police officer who shot and killed 13 year old Adam Toledo in an alley at 2:37 a.m. on a school night. From the several videos taken from different angles and the FACTS, I believe those who insist that the tragic shooting was "murder" or an "execution" are spouting totally unsupported conclusions, possibly to prop up the silly agenda which says "All cops are bad and are always wrong."

To cut through the name calling and jumps to conclusions, let's consider what the videos show. After answering a "shots fired" call and encountering two males on a street corner where the shots were heard, the cop chases one of the males down an alley after he takes off. After shouting "Stop!" four times as they run along a board fence on their right, the pair comes to a gap in the fence. Here, as the cop shouts "Show me your hands!" and "Drop it!" and the video shows a pistol in the boys right hand, the boy leans into the gap far enough to conceal his right arm from view. He then VERY quickly turns to his left, toward the cop and raises both hands. Almost instantly, he is shot once in the chest and is soon dead.

The video indicates that the time passing between the gun being visible in the boy's right hand and that hand reappearing---empty---from behind the fence was DIGHT TENTHS OF ONE SECOND. THE cop literally had a "split second" to make the decision to either shoot the guy he saw with a pistol or risk being shot himself.

The shooting death of any person is a tragedy and this is especially so when the victim is a child. But, not every tragic death is a cold-blooded murder or an execution.

I have heard a female attorney say repeatedly on TV that the boy "dropped the gun as ordered". No he didn't. He THREW the gun behind the fence where it was concealed. The same woman said that the boy was "unarmed at the MOMENT he was shot". Technically, that is apparently true, but she conveniently fails to mention that he WAS armed EIGHT TENTHS OF A SECOND BEFORE he was shot.

Heartbreaking tragedy? To be sure.

Murder? Execution? No evidence of that.

[uponit7771]

1. ***BULLFUCKIN SHIT!!!*** The kid did what he was told to do, why did he get shot anyway?

All pre-action to the shooting does not justify killing the kid.

Also the cop was supposed to keep his distance but closed in. If he thought the kid had a weapon he wouldn't have gotten closer for such a clean shot.

The issue in the US is not only bad fire drill training but brain dead LEOs who escalate and put themselves in greater danger by not following dept and common sense rules.

Talk to too many cops to know, if a perp has a gun don't get closer until all is shown and safer like hands are shown etc.

The other thing is don't ask the person to turn around etc etc... bad shooting

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. "THE cop literally had a "split second" to make the decision"

The cop made a decision about what was acceptable when he took the job in a long-standing white supremacist system that authorizes extrajudicial killing of kids. It was a shitty decision.

[Mr.Bill]

3. He sure had time to aim, though, didn't he?

[Atticus]

13. That's nonsense. At that range and in that time frame, the pistol was pointed, not aimed. It was

a snap shot; not carefully aimed.

[Mr.Bill]

16. It was aimed well enough for one shot to kill almost instantly.

[TwilightZone]

42. They're not trained to point.

They're trained to aim at center mass. That can be done quite quickly with training and practice.

[Atticus]

70. Aiming a pistol involves lining up the blade front sight with the notch in the rear sight and the

intended target ( assuming no laser sight is used ). Only someone unfamiliar with the difficulty of accurately aiming a pistol at night, while out of breath and while believing you are about to be shot at would believe that taking the time to "aim at center mass" was feasible.

And, by the way, cops are taught to "point" when speed is essential. In fact, FBI agents are trained to fire a first round onto a concrete surface---as in a warehouse or on a highway---to hit an attacker with a ricochet if an instant response is essential.

[TwilightZone]

45. Training and practice.

People trained to shoot professionally can aim and fire quite rapidly.

[JoeOtterbein]

105. +1

You can be a complete mess as a human, and still shoot to kill with a bit of training.

The problem is that all you need is a gun, and that is way too easy.

[rickyhall]

4. It all happened so fast its hard to put it all on the cop.

[uponit7771]

8. No, this is why the cops follow dept rules and common sense. like don't get close to someone

... who you would shoot if they have a weapon.

There are other things not followed like the "slowly" part but we can't get past the getting closer the stopped perp with a gun thing.

[rickyhall]

14. You're right, the cop should have slowed things down. He had the car for cover, the kid had none.

[questionseverything]

67. They were both running down the alley

The cop wasn’t in his car

[uponit7771]

113. Then the LEO should have use 1. Time as a tactic, 2. Distance, 3. warning, basically what it

... outlines in the use of force training in section 7 here

https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Use-of-Force-Overview-Points-051717.pdf

[questionseverything]

137. As someone who lives in the middle of my lil city

With an alley behind my house

The idea of giving an armed jerk, time and distance at 3am is terrifying

Because the kid hid the gun the cop didn’t know where it was.....sad ending but not the clear cut case of george floyd

[uponit7771]

144. "The idea of giving an armed jerk, time and distance at 3am is terrifying" Then don't be a cop !!!

Like a quarter back of a pro football QB intentionally grounding every time an outside rush beats the tackle ... WTF !?!?

lol, I didn't want to get hit only works the first 3 times

Because the kid hid the gun the cop didn’t know where it was.....sad ending but not the clear cut case of george floyd

Then the cop should have followed his training, the cop in Floyd situation he didn't ... dead kid ...

[questionseverything]

156. I don't want the cop giving armed criminals

The time and distance to get from the alley to my back door

[uponit7771]

157. The kid stopped, the training after that takes over ... period.

[StarfishSaver]

162. It's illegal to shoot a fleeing suspect

Cops don't have the authority to shoot people so they don't get to your back door, even if they think they might be armed.

[questionseverything]

181. It was illegal to shoot at the cars too

My dad used to say,

“Nothing good happens after midnight “

[StarfishSaver]

191. You're putting the kid and the cop on the same level?

It's illegal to shoot at cars. But it's not a capital offense.

"Nothing good happens after midnight" doesn't justify shooting a child who may or may not be doing something illegal.

A 13-year-old kid may or may not have shot at cars. Arrest him and charge him with a crime.

A trained cop shoots a 13-year-old kid who just surrendered according to his orders and people here don't even want him charged or punished because "he made a mistake."

Bullshit.

[sop]

227. "A trained cop shoots a 13-year-old kid who just surrendered according to his orders..."

THIS is the only issue. All the other stuff - the boy's age, asking why his mother let him out at that time of night, claiming he was (allegedly) shooting at cars, etc. - is just a distraction.

This is what we know occurred: a fleeing suspect with a pistol in his hand is ordered to stop and put the gun down, then the cop shoots him almost immediately after the suspect turns around and faces the cop with his hands raised and empty.

Excusing the cop's actions by saying "it happened too fast" is just admitting the cop was trigger happy and didn't use proper judgement. Just one question for those who maintain "it happened too fast": what should a fleeing suspect do when ordered to stop running, drop the gun and surrender?

[StarfishSaver]

228. Exactly

I asked that question in another OP and got no good answers from the "he should have just complied" crowd.

It doesn't matter what happened before, as you said. It's irrelevant whether or why he was out at that time of night or where his parents were or even whether he had engaged in illegal activity. As soon as that cop ordered him to stop and put his hands up, everything else became completely irrelevant and the only thing that mattered was what happened in that moment. And in that moment the child complied with the officer. At that point the cop had the obligation to reassess the situation as it stood in that moment to determine the level of threat and next steps. Shooting that child less than a second after he complied and before taking any measure of the level of immediate threat facing him is inexcusable.

As for the question, the apparent answer for many people here is that it doesn't matter what he does at that point because his behavior up until then condemned him to death no matter what he does from here on.

[sop]

232. It seems stopping, dropping the gun, turning around and surrendering is a capital offense now.

I guess when they prohibited police from shooting fleeing suspects in the back, they forgot to tell cops they shouldn't shoot suspects AFTER they stopped, dropped the gun, turned around, raised their empty hands and faced the cop.

Unless they shoot really, really quickly. Then it's ok.

[Atticus]

278. Your post just above is disigenuous---at best---because it ignores the FACT that the

"stop", THROWING ( not "dropping" ) the gun and "turning to face the cop" all occurred within EIGHT TENTHS OF A SECOND.

Most reasonable people think that is very relevant.

[sop]

296. There is a difference between a risk and a threat.

Granted, Toledo posed a risk to the officer as he was chasing him down the alley with a gun in his hand. However, the boy did not pose a threat to the officer when he stopped, turned around quickly to face the officer with both arms raised and hands empty, immediately after "throwing" the gun behind the fence. What threat did Toledo pose to the officer at that very moment?

The officer acted unreasonably because he did not take sufficient time to react appropriately to a risk. Instead, the officer shot an unarmed boy in the chest while he was facing him with arms raised and both hands empty. At that very moment, Toledo posed no threat to the officer.

This was not a legally justified shooting according to both police training and the law. It might be understandable, in the heat of the moment and considering it occurred in "EIGHT TENTHS OF A SECOND," but it's not legally justified in response to a risk. The law holds cops to a higher standard.

This shooting is only "reasonable" if one believes cops are entitled to do anything to avoid the risk of being shot. That's typically the justification behind most of these fatal encounters, but it's not how cops are trained to react to a risk. "Shoot first, ask questions later" and "better judged by twelve than carried by six" might be standard cop practice, but it's not how cops are legally entitled to react to a risk.

[Atticus]

258. Your description of what happened is, at best, disingenuous. nt

[sop]

276. What special insight do you have that the rest of us do not?

Let me repeat my statement, then you can tell me why it's "disingenuous." We know this occurred by actually looking at the police body cam and surveillance camera video. These are incontrovertible facts.

"A fleeing suspect with a pistol in his hand is ordered to stop and put the gun down, then the cop shoots him almost immediately after the suspect turns around and faces the cop with his hands raised and empty."

What's "disingenuous" is trying to create a scenario that only exists in one's mind because one has certain biases or desires a particular outcome.

[Disaffected]

5. No criticism from here.

This situation is somewhat similar to the female cop who thought her gun was a taser - many jumping in to condemn her of murder without credible reason or evidence.

[sheshe2]

65. Please.

If she can't tell the difference between a the gun and taser that she holds directly in front of her face, according to one cam... It was right in front of her and she could not see it?

I am not jumping to conclusions, I am stating a fact.

[Disaffected]

96. THis has been discussed at length

in several recent threads so I won't repeat why your "...stating a fact" is not a statement of fact at all.

[sheshe2]

115. Sorry I have not been on all those threads that it has been discussed.

I am on this one.

[58Sunliner]

186. He wouldn't have a stun gun to face an armed suspect.

[sheshe2]

217. The person I responded to brought up the Wright killing not Toledos.

Two different shooting, yet same results. Both men/boys died within minutes.

[StarfishSaver]

224. They always end up the same way

And the same people always make excuses for them, just adjusting for the circumstances ... He should have complied... He complied but he didn't comply right... He complied but he didn't comply in time...

It's ridiculous.

[sheshe2]

229. Exactly what the defense is saying about George Floyd.

He didn't comply. Handcuffed on his face in the street.

That and it was his fault anyway, after all he did do drugs, he smoked 111! Had an enlarged heart and there he was laying in the street next to an exhaust pipe!!! It was HIS FAULT. Nothing to do with a man that pressed his knee, full weight, on his neck for nine plus minutes with two others on his back and legs.

Yes. It is ridiculous.

Hey. I have missed you here.

[Bettie]

286. You know, at first I thought "hey she was probably a rookie"

But she is a cop with decades of experience, head of the police union, and was there to TRAIN OTHER COPS!

That means she should know the difference between her gun and her tazer.

What is shows me is that either many cops are not well trained or that their training focuses on the wrong things.

[CrispyQ]

323. Both statements in your last sentence are correct.

They don't receive nearly enough training & what they do receive is focused on the wrong things.

[Sucha NastyWoman]

6. But Adam Toledo did as ordered, and still he died.

What is a parent of a black or brown child supposed to tell them to do.?

[uponit7771]

10. +1, people are avoiding this one question. It's because the LEO didn't follow rules here ...

... and no one knows the rules one of them don't get close to a perp you think has a gun

[Atticus]

19. Can you cite some authority for what seems like a rule requiring cops to be cowards--- i.e.,

"don't get close to a perp you think has a gun"?

[wnylib]

78. Cowards? More like common sense.

[uponit7771]

85. Common sense and training, you're wrong here. The cop didn't follow training and a kid died ...

... and you wont answer the question of why the kid was shot after following LEOs directions cause people who take the cops side know its a bad shooting.

Folk can FUD this all they want but there are too many people posting who know what's up.

[Atticus]

91. In other words, you have nothing to support what you are saying. It is just what you think.

As for "taking the cops side", I don't think there were any winners in that alley.

I am sorry I offend you by saying I don"t think the cop is a murderer or an executioner.

[uponit7771]

110. Link inside

https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Use-of-Force-Overview-Points-051717.pdf

section 7 on use of force,

This LEO didn't do the minimum

[uponit7771]

221. Linked it down thread already

[EndlessWire]

213. I watched the same videos you did

and I can see that there was a real question of whether the kid had the gun or not.

Let's go with the supposition that he did not. In fact, he had a weapon which he tossed through the gap. Then he turned. What was that cop supposed to do? Give up his life to a shooter when he is trained to neutralize that threat? It is easy for us to hindsight the cop because we have the luxury of slowing the vid down to slngle it out. And still, it is not perfectly clear whether the kid still had the gun or not.

I think it's a damned shame. Just an awful loss of life. And, for what? Stupid kid playing with a handgun that no Repub will prevent him from having? When that kid decided to buddy up with an adult shooting at cars, he moved himself into the adult bracket. The cop could have been killed.

The kid probably thought that if he dumped the gun, he could claim it wasn't his. But, people don't deal in reality anymore. In reality, if a cop realizes that you are holding a gun in your hand and running away, you could turn and shoot him. Kid was lucky that he didn't get shot while running.

So, people are now asking, what should they teach their hoodlum child who is running from a cop with a gun? Other than, don't play with guns, perhaps stop when you are told, keep facing away from the cop, and put your stupid hands in the air. Freeze. Then do what the cop tells you to do. I think that if the boy hadn't turned toward the officer, he would not have been shot. You would turn toward the officer if you were going to shoot at him. That's why cops have people face away from them.

The cop seemed to have had genuine concern over it all.

[Arazi]

230. Or third and best option, waited a second longer to see if there's compliance

The FACT that this cop couldn't even wait one second to evaluate is why this is a bad racist cop.

Same as Tamir Rice with his toy. Its ASSUMED black/brown folks are dangerous instantly and white people nodding along.

You presume the cop is acting with good intentions. The rest of us (and statistics) know that's bullshit

#blacklivesmatter

[StarfishSaver]

233. The white cop gets the benefit of the doubt

The brown kid is assumed to be responsible for his own demise.

He shouldn't have been out at 2:30 in the morning. Where were his parents. That's what he gets for running away. He shouldn't have turned around.

Funny how we're not seeing the cop's behavior and morality questioned by the people raising those questions about Adam. Why did he shoot so fast? Why did he tell him to put up his hands? Why did he chase the kid with the gun. Has he been involved in other shootings? Why didn't a trained cop not do anything to de-escalate the situation? Why didn't he assess the situation before firing?

No. The cop gets the benefit of the doubt.

[CaptainTruth]

111. I'd call it intelligence, common sense, & self-preservation.

Consider Tamir Rice. Police believed he was armed, & what did they do when they saw him? Drove as close & possible & jumped out of their car.

Is that how cops are trained to respond to a suspect they believe is armed & possibly dangerous? Get as close as possible & jump out right in front of them, eliminating any barrier that could possibly protect them (like a steel car door), deliberately placing themselves in maximum danger? If "deliberately place yourself in maximum danger" is standard police training, then we have a much bigger problem than I thought.

I studied satellite photos of the park where Tamir was killed & determined the route the police cruiser took into the park & exactly where it stopped. There was nothing in front of it blocking its path. There was a grassy area it could have driven through into a parking lot a short distance from the pavilion where they could have stopped & initiated contact with Tamir.

They said they felt threatened yet they could have removed themselves from the perceived danger if one of them had pressed an accelerator pedal with their right foot while turning a steering wheel slightly to the left, actions that millions of us take dozens of times every time we drive a car.

If their judgement & skill is that bad, I don't want them on the streets with guns.

Edit to add: I realize that is a different case, I'm discussing it because I believe it illustrates how sometimes police have ways to easily mitigate danger (real or perceived) & they choose not to, with fatal results.

[uponit7771]

118. +1, CPD use of force talks about distance (link inside)

https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Use-of-Force-Overview-Points-051717.pdf

part 7

Some LEOs just say "f**k training" cowboy time and get people killed.

[Atticus]

79. Waiting. nt

[uponit7771]

136. Linked down thread a couple of times

[Atticus]

141. Ha-ha! nt

[uponit7771]

146. ... really ?! I post CPD use of force and you laugh?! ... sigh, whatever.

[Atticus]

167. You posted a SUMMARY which briefly describes what is covered by the

Use of Force rules which are printed ELSEWHERE.

You posted NOTHING that backs your repeated pronouncements about "rule violations".

[uponit7771]

171. omfg, section 7 of the summary doesn't back up the leos actions.

[Atticus]

177. That is not the point, is it? The point is, does section seven back up YOUR numerous

assertions that the Toledo boy died because the cop "didn't follow procedures".

Clearly, it does not.

[uponit7771]

183. Yes, the leo didn't follow the UOF rules ... you can read them yourself but the summary

... in the PDF is pretty clear of what they're supposed to do before taking some action of forcec.

[Atticus]

261. And, still, the fact remains that you have failed or refused to respond with a source which

supports your repeated allegations that "the cop didn't follow procedure". It is not up to me or anyone else to track down and read "UOF rules" which support what you said.

You said it. You can't support it.

People can decide for themselves what that means.

[uponit7771]

283. This is false, everyone can read man

[Atticus]

287. Indeed, but you don't seem to think that proves my point. We are done. nt

[shell34555]

134. 14

All I have to say is, If he was white, I bet he would be alive.

[uponit7771]

139. RIGHT ?!!? I'd bet over 90% of unarmed shooting is because LEO didn't follow rules, training etc

[MichMan]

17. Don't be out at 2AM on a school night shooting at passing cars with a gun?

[uponit7771]

20. None of the kids pre-action justifies execution, people have a hard time answering this question...

... because its a bad shooting hands down

[StarfishSaver]

30. People make mistakes

When a cop shoots a child to death, that was a mistake - cut him some slack.

But when a Black child who makes the mistake of being out at 2 am, he doesn't deserve any slack. If he gets shot as a result of his mistake, let's blame him, not the cop who made the last "mistake" of the encounter that left this child dead.

[uponit7771]

40. +1, yep ... cops gets benefit of the doubt kid does not

[Devil Child]

322. You ignored the shooting at people part but otherwise yes sound alright to me

If lil homicide never left the house at 2am he’d be alive.

[StarfishSaver]

325. If a cop hadn't pulled the trigger after telling him to put his hands up, he'd still be alive

You don't know that he was shooting at cars. But your assumption that he was along with your smearing a dead child as "lil homicide" speaks volumes.

[Devil Child]

329. 'Lil homicide was his gang nickname and how some of his peers addressed him in their eulogies

Seems fitting to honor his memory with the moniker.

[StarfishSaver]

330. It's not "fitting" at all.

It's cruel, petty and obnoxious.

And as I said, your insistence on doing it is volumes

[Devil Child]

332. Cruel, petty, and obnoxious is quite fitting for a deceased member of a criminal gang.

Crocodile tears much less so.

[EndlessWire]

192. Don't shoot at cars

with your buddy, don't have a gun in your hand, and don't go running down a dark alley with a cop chasing you?

[StarfishSaver]

200. Don't shoot children who stop running and put up their hands just like you told them to

[EndlessWire]

218. It wasn't like that.

"Stop!" Failed to stop.
"Show me your hands!" Didn't do THAT until AFTER he tossed his weapon.

He turned toward the cop and a split second later he was shot. It just sounds righteous to say, "Oh, the child got shot after he did what he was told to do," but it didn't happen that way, and it happened in a micro second anyway.

[StarfishSaver]

222. The cop told him to put up his hands

And then he shot him.

If he was such a threat and it didn't matter whether his hands were up or not or what he did at that point, why didn't the cop just shoot him instead of giving him an order? The point of the order is to give him a chance to not get shot. He did what he was told.

If he wasn't enough of a threat to the cop to merit being shot before putting his hands up, there was nothing that happened in the second between being told to put his hands up and his doing it that suddenly turned him into a threat.

The cop screwed up and killed someone. You can make excuses for it all you want, but that doesn't change that fact.

[Treefrog]

237. I'm pretty sure my parents never even had to tell me not to run around on the streets at 2 am.

They never had to tell me not to carry a gun or shoot at people. They never had to tell me that because by 13 I knew that by growing up and learning right from wrong. So, in answer to your question, if their parenting has been so lax that they actually have to TELL them not to do things like that, I really don’t know. Maybe stop, throw the gun, and lie down on the street? No idea because my parents never had to tell me what to do when being chased by a cop at 2 in the morning with a gun in my hand. It was never necessary for them to tell me how to handle that situation. It simply would never happen, and it never did happen.

[LAS14]

318. Actually, in the video, he looked pretty white to me. nt

[AZProgressive]

7. Whether he threw the gun somewhere or dropped it his hands were still up

The police officer should have waited a few seconds before pulling the trigger and if it is a mistake police arrest people all the time for making mistakes.

I'm going to trash this thread. Kyle Rittenhouse was allowed to leave after shooting multiple people.

[Atticus]

22. This is the type of response I expected. nt

[AZProgressive]

33. My criticism wasn't that intense

The main reason why I trashed the thread is because I can expect how this one will turn out.

I agree with Starfish Saver down thread when it comes to being sick of it. I don't even watch videos anymore because I have seen so many and just can't take it anymore.

[Atticus]

262. Yes, looking the other way is less messy than being informed and staging your opinion. nt

[kcr]

290. More like being informed and staging your misinformed opinion anyway nt

[AZProgressive]

347. Watching videos is traumatic

I addressed what you wrote as far as the gun on the ground part.

[barbtries]

77. ditto nt

[Hoyt]

9. Atticus, let me be the first to criticize you . . . . . for not posting this earlier. I agree.

While the risk of the post being hidden for “spreading right wing talking points” is high, that teenager had a gun at most two seconds before a running winded policeman — who did not know his age or intent - caught up to him.

We can’t look at a couple of still photos from our homes and know that policeman shot him knowing he no longer had the gun.

I’m for major police reform and societal reform that gives kids like this better options. But that’s another issue.

[uponit7771]

12. The kid did what he was told to do and still was killed, what else could he have done? All the

... other pre-actions to the shooting don't justify death is a given.

[Hoyt]

23. I'm not sure. In video, he had what sure looks like a pistol at 2:38:39 and didn't at 2:38:40.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2021/4/15/22383392/adam-toledo-shooting-video-released-chicago-police-bodycam


Depends on when the running officer fired. Hopefully someone credible will pinpoint that.

I am definitely biased in that if someone is carrying a gun -- don't care if it's a trump loving white wing POS marching with a confederate flag or whoever -- they are a threat to society. I'd prefer socioeconomic conditions were better to avoid people taking up firearms and police were selected and trained differently, but those aren't the issues here.

I'm glad the police pursued the teenager with a gun -- not knowing his age or anything about him. He couldn't let him get away with that gun. Sorry, too many innocent people get killed by young men with a gun.

I wish the policeman saw it as we do looking at still photos. I want to hear more. I think the Mayor of Chicago and prosecutor will do the right thing. And maybe a jury is the only way to decide.

But I'm sick of guns, whether some white wing racist is carrying one or some criminal.

[uponit7771]

31. All pre-actions to the shooting don't justify an execution. This was hands down a bad ...

... shooting because the LEO didn't follow training.

Most on DU don't know too many and don't know why this was a bad shooting but "put your hands up" is tv cop shit that get people bent up.

At the least if there's a stopped perp the word ... SLOWLY ... is supposed to come out of the LEOs mouth FIRST.

Then there are positions the cop is supposed to call for like SLOWLY get down on your knees and LEO's supposed to do like not get close to the stopped perp he doesn't know has a gun.

No, if these guys minimum follow their training like don't grab for a taser from dominant hand ?! ... these things are minimized at best.

The cities who under train have the worst records, I know that for a fact

[Hoyt]

43. I'm sorry. At 2:38:39 he had a gun. At 2:38:40 his hands are up. Shot seems to be at 2:38:40 too.

Maybe forensics can pinpoint it.



?resize=1024,576

From the BBC video below, it appears the officer also fired at 2:38:40. In fact, I'd almost bet the bullet is on the way in the first phot above. And he had a gun at 2:38:39.

Maybe forensics can pinpoint it.

I just don't think this case is comparable to many of the others recently -- certainly not Chauvin who, even if one accepts Floyd needed restraint, still crushed his neck for over 9 minutes too long.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56768217

[uponit7771]

61. The cop didn't follow training and a kid died, that's what's up. All else is bullshit execuses

[Hoyt]

63. No, BS here is trying to equate this incident with George Floyd and similar incidents with UNARMED

people.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

257. "I am definitely biased in that if someone is carrying a gun -- don't care if it's a trump loving

white wing POS marching with a confederate flag or whoever -- they are a threat to society.

Amazing how this ends for you when the person carrying a gun puts on a cop uniform.

[Hoyt]

288. There is a big difference in this case, Whiskey. Sorry you can't see it, or admit it.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

292. Walk me through it.

[Atticus]

34. Sorry, but the kid did NOT do "what he was told to do". He was ordered to stop---four times---and

he ran. He was told "Show me your hands" and "Drop it" but he delayed showing his hands until he had thrown the gun behind the fence. But, not doing as he was told did not get him shot and killed. What did that was his unintentionally posing an apparent deadly threat to an on edge cop with a gun in his hand. He had a gun visible in his right hand and then, less than a second later, that same hand was raised quickly--empty---in the cop's direction.

[uponit7771]

38. Again, "all preactions to the shooting do not justify execution" ... I don't know why people are

... skipping by that part in answering the simple question

[Hoyt]

47. From what I've seen, I think the bullet was on the way at same time he raised his hands -- 2:38:40.

At 2:38:39 he had the pistol and then threw it to the side.

Believe me, I do not like arguing for the police here. But, I want guns off the street be it 3%er racists or kids too young to have one.

[uponit7771]

56. True, the LEO should not have called for the hands of someone he thought had a gun ...

... in the first place if he didn't know a gun wasn't in his hands.

The cop didn't follow some simple procedures in this case, deescalating the situation is one of them where the kid didn't move fast and he didn't feel like he had to shoot.

That was the root issue, if the kid slowly raised his hands the LEO wouldn't have plugged him ... that was on the LEO seeing the kid was complying.

[Atticus]

48. Your very use of the word "execution" displays the predetermination that you seek to justify. nt

[uponit7771]

57. Peoples deflection of the question via diction shows me where their thinking ISN'T

[Atticus]

73. I respect your opinion, but just like mine, it isn't a fact.

[uponit7771]

117. The link to CPD use of force procedures ***IS*** fact thought, come on man. The majority of

... PoC shootings in the US that are unarmed is because someone didn't follow their training or the rules or procedures.

Cops are NOTORIOUSLY undertrained in some cities and one of the is Chi

[njhoneybadger]

112. Even in a sweeping motion it would have taken half of a second to throw the gun

And raise his hand over his head. The bullet one tenth of a second to hit him.

[StarfishSaver]

11. Why order someone to put his hands in the air if you're going to shoot him when he does?

The point of ordering someone to put their hands in the air is so you can see their hands and know they aren't armed and, I'd they so still have the gun, they can't easily use it against you or anyone else. It gives the officer time to assess the situation and determine whether the person is still a threat.

The act of putting one's hands in the air is an act of surrender.

There is NO excuse for an officer to shoot someone they've ordered to put up their hands less than a second after they complied. None. It doesn't matter what he had in his hand before he put his hands up or how he disposed of it. When he put up his hands, the situation shifted to new ground and the officer was duty bound to reassess the circumstances he was facing.

I'm tired of the excuses for the inexcusable. I'm sick of the wack-a-mole efforts apologist make to shift blame for these killings from the cop to the victim.

Usually the excuse is "if he'd just complied, he wouldn't have been shot." But a video showing a child being shot point blank with his hands in the air has screwed up that tired excuse. So the new excuse is "he may have complied, but let's look at what he did BEFORE he complied to find an excuse to blame him for getting shot."

BS. The cop shouldn't have shot him. PERIOD.

[uponit7771]

18. +1, have you tried to OP this question? There's no one who wants to address it? The cop ...

... didn't follow some dept and common sense rules is the reason the kid was shot but it looks like no one wants to address this.

[StarfishSaver]

25. Frankly

I'm sick of this shit.

I stayed off of DU for several months because I was sick of trying to explain this to people who should know better, who pretend to be progressive and open-minded but parrott the same talking points over and over. I came back yesterday only to find nothing has changed here.

I'm sick of wasting my time trying to help people learn and do better. The kind of thinking we're seeing here is deeply rooted and not likely to be changed by even the most thoughtful, logical and eloquent explanations from a stranger online - especially when that stranger is a Black woman they assume couldn't possibly be objective enough to understand why cops have no choice but to shoot unarmed Black children.

[uponit7771]

27. We need people who are informed, it can be frustrating on issues but not all of them. You add

... to the discourse here with pointed questions and facts.

The mission is waking up the half sleep, MLK is right ... getting people off the fence the work.

I'd OP the question and just tell people why police wise it was a bad shooting seeing the LEO got close to someone he didn't know had a gun and cause the person not to move in order that would protect the LEO and the kid.

The LEO was supposed to order the kid to move in a way that would put them both in the best position like get down on the ground SLOWLY etc etc ...

Saying "show me your hands" is tv cop shit and gets LEOs killed.

[Hoyt]

28. In this video the officer appears to fire at 2:38:40 not even a second after the teenager turned.

That's too close for me to think he had a choice to pause a second or two to decide if the teenager who had a gun at 2:38:39 didn't still have it.

Sorry, again, but I'm tired of white wingers with guns and criminals that kill innocent people.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56768217

[uponit7771]

36. 1. LEO got close, 2. Didn't order armed perp on the ground, 3. Asked for hands without knowning

... what was in them, 4. didn't take cover on suspected armed perp, 5. didn't slow the situation where the perp wasn't flinching.

This is training they've been through and CPD are notoursly undertrained or drilled.

If the LEO follows training there likely isn't a bad shooting

[StarfishSaver]

39. The fact that he shot him that fast doesn't mean he didn't have time to think

He had the time. He didn't use it but just shot instead.

The point of telling someone to put up their hands is to make sure they don't have a fun pointed at you. If you think he has a gun and if he puts his hands up, he'll use it on you, why would you tell him to put up his hands?

This cop was flat out wrong. He should NOT have shot this child after he complied with his order. Every other excuse being made for this trigger-happy officer is bullshit.

[Hoyt]

54. Don't think so, StarfishSaver. Go out and sprint 30 yards in the dark with a strobe light and tell

me you could have thought about. Image you are facing someone in a dark alley -- who may have fired that gun a little earlier -- and was holding that pistol 2:38:39, then raising his arms from the down position to overhead.

He complied with the order, but too late. I think the bullet was on the way. I can't swear there was no chance for the officer to think about it, but if the concept "reasonable doubt" still applies, it does here.

Now the one thing we don't have is a background check on the officer. That could definitely cause me to reflect.

[uponit7771]

58. The cops ***TRAINING*** says if the perp is suspected to be armed do 1, 2 and 3 ... and one of them

... is not "put your hands up" tv cop shit that get folk bent.

[Hoyt]

62. Do what/ A policeman running after an armed person who may have fired the gun a little earlier,

is supposed to shout out some scripted order.

Come on. Go out and run 30 yards in the dark -- while imaging you are right behind an armed person who likely will shoot you to get away -- and recite the second line of the Lord's Prayer.

[uponit7771]

71. Yep, then if not followed get busy ... bout that simple. LOL ... I used to play college football...

... and eat up to 9,000 calories a day.

Not only can the dumbest person do what you described in your last sentence after 3 hours of running 30 yrds or something close but since collage ball players are over trained they do it with precision.

The LEOs in these cases ... ARE NOT ... over trained and this one didn't follow the simplest common sense rules of not getting close to an armed perp.

That in and of itself is a huge red flag, this was a hands down bad shooting ... the cop follows training the kid lives ... PERIOD.

Facts matter and those aren't in dispute

[Hoyt]

81. I'll trust Mayor Lightfoot, the DA, and a jury, if needed, to sort this out. Oh, the facts are

clearly in dispute if you think someone armed at 2:38:39, whirling around while tossing a gun, should not be perceived a threat at 2:38:40.

[uponit7771]

84. We'll see, this leo didn't follow training and a kid died. If training in CPD is to close up on a...

... suspected armed perp then no wonder that city has paid out over a half billion dollars.

[Hoyt]

94. Classroom training, or simulation, is almost meaningless in this situation.

[Hoyt]

101. Former Washington DC and Philly Police Chief/Commissioner and CNN expert says "Reasonable." Not cool

with "reasonable," but I think it was an outcome that I can't blame on policeman from what I know now. I hope at some point down the road, it's not "reasonable."

"Former Washington, D.C., Police Chief Charles Ramsey told CNN’s Anderson Cooper that the shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo “was reasonable.”

“Tragic as it was, the shooting was reasonable,” said Ramsey, who was also commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department and currently serves as CNN’s law enforcement analyst, Mediaite reported."

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/548632-former-dc-police-chief-says-adam-toledo-shooting-was-reasonable

[uponit7771]

108. This is false on its face, LEOs are trained for these situations. I think that's where people are...

... getting this wrong, 90% of the bad shooting of even black people is because the cops said "fuck training" and went out on their own.

https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Use-of-Force-Overview-Points-051717.pdf

Section 7, its all there

This LEO didn't do the minimum

[58Sunliner]

196. I'm so sorry, they forgot to add dark alley at night while perp has a gun.

[Atticus]

87. You keep repeating that the cop "did not follow the rules" or police procedures and protocols

but, until you cite some rule or protocol or procedure of the CPD, this is just your opinion.

[uponit7771]

97. Main Use of Force Policy (G03-02) .. part 7. It aint rocket science and (link) is just a summary

https://home.chicagopolice.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Use-of-Force-Overview-Points-051717.pdf

[StarfishSaver]

64. "he complied with the order but too late"

Bullshit.

But think what you want. I'm sick of trying to explain to people why trained cops should be held to higher standards than scared kids - even scared kids with guns - and I'm really sick and disgusted watching fellow Democrats twist themselves into knots giving the benefit of the doubt to trigger-happy cops who shoot black children because they didn't "come fast enough."

[Hoyt]

75. I'm tired of hearing how training is supposed to be scripted out in 1.8 seconds in an ARMED

confrontation by people sitting at home looking at still photos.

Now, you want to talk about better training, better selection, getting arms off the street, cracking down on armed criminals and armed up domestic terrorists, etc., I'm with you.

[StarfishSaver]

83. This is isn't a training problem

If it were, white people would be getting shot and killed in the same proportions as Black people.

The problem is that too many white cops - just like too many white people in general - see Black people, especially males, as more dangerous and threatening and less worthy of respect and concern than people who look like them.

Therefore, some cops see a frightened, wary black man trying to get back into his car or running away from them or holding his hands up in the air as an imminent threat needing to be tased, shot or otherwise neutralizes when they do not see similarly and even worse behaving white people in the same way.

You can't train that out of people. We need to get people who think like that out of jobs where they have the power to make life and death decisions over people a d have the firepower to take their lives. And people need to stop making excuses for them.

[uponit7771]

99. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾

[Hoyt]

123. I agree. However, I don't think this case is necessarily part of that. Every time a white policeman

shoots a minority is not systemic racism.

Heck, in Atlanta last week 4 Black policeman begged a man to put down his knife before having to shoot him. In fact, one of the policeman said something like, "Look, I'm Black just like you and I don't want to shoot you, please put down that knife." Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

Now, if the Chicago policeman had shot a man who didn't have a gun one second before, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'd be calling for immediate charges of murder and a quick trial like Chauvin.

As to shootings by race, you are definitely right that proportionately minorities are shot much more often than Whites. But, there are a lot of whites shot too. Shoot and/or run with a gun, and the odds of getting shot go up dramatically. Personally, I'd like to either see less domestic terrorists in this country or more of them shot while taking their gunz.

[StarfishSaver]

154. I'd agree with you if whites who run with guns were as likely to be shot as blacks running with guns

or even as likely to be shot as UNARMED blacks.

This isn't a case of police just shooting people. Yes, white people get shot. But they get shot in numbers far below their proportions in society while Blacks are shot in numbers far exceeding our numbers. And how many times do we have to see white people brandishing guns, taunting police, running and driving away, etc., while the police keep their guns holstered and try to reason with them, while we see unarmed, compliant black people harassed, shot, etc?

Please stop making this seem like this is the result of the behavior of the victim. It is NOT. It is the RACE of the victim far too often and their behavior has nothing to do with it.

We have been told over and over and over that if Black people just COMPLY, we won't get shot. Well, Adam Toledo DID comply (just like numerous other people of color) and he still got shot. So now we are hearing new spins on the justifications... He didn't comply FAST enough. He complied, but he turned around when he did it. He complied but before he complied, he tossed away the gun (right - and if he HADN'T tossed away the gun, guess what the excuse would be?)... there's always a justification why Black people keep getting shot other than the obvious reason that's been proven over and over and over.

The attempts to excuse, justify and just plain ignore the elephant in the room is disgusting. And you're playing right into it. Shame on you.

[Hoyt]

164. Tell it to Charles Ramsey on CNN. Doubt he'll miss the elephant like

you are accusing me of doing.

I get the elephant, just not in this case.

[StarfishSaver]

182. Charles Ramsey agrees with you but he's not the only authority on this matter

And many other people with knowledge and experience think the cop was flat out wrong.

[Atticus]

267. So, until "whites who run with guns" are "as likely to be shot as blacks who run with guns",

any white cop who shoots a POC is a racist murderer?

We live in a very flawed racist society, but that does not justify judgment by stereotype for anyone. As we have been insisting for years, "facts matter".

I regret that this issue is so divisive, but ignoring problems leaves them to fester.

[StarfishSaver]

279. Until Black people are treated the same way as white people are

and as long as the criminal justice system sees and treats Black and Brown people differently than whites, and tolerates and even encourages police to use their vast power of life and death in ways that protect white lives while devaluing non-white oneswe have a

Your claim that our rational concerns about obvious racism in policing practices and policies is anaccusation that cops are "racist murderers" Is a hyperbolic mischaracterization, but not an uncommon one.

You say the "problem" is being ignored and allowed to fester. But I think you're confused about what the real problem is. As long as you continue to operate under the erroneous assumption that calls for equity and equality are a demand that white people be treated worse than they are or to lose something they have, the real problems will indeed continue to fester.

And one of those festering problems is a refusal to listen to what Black and Brown people are telling you and insisting on lecturing US that the problem REALLY is, according to you, how we need to communicate it, and lecturing us that we need to stop "judging and stereotyping" if we want you to help do anything about it.

[Atticus]

280. I DO understand and agree with much of your anguish. Do I fully feel it? No, I am a white man.

I can empathize and support the obvious view that serious reform of policing must occur, but I will not patronize you with "Whatever you say".

We differ.

We are both good people who want most of the same things, but i will not defer to your view because our melanin content also differs.

I hope you can understand that, while I may be imperfect, I am an ally.

[StarfishSaver]

284. There's a difference between saying "whatever you say"

and lecturing people of color about what the "real" problem is and continuing to ignore us when we tell you otherwise - and calling us "unhinged" when you don't like how we accurately describe what actually occurred.

Frankly, I'm tired of white people telling me they're allies and claiming they understand that racism exists, there are problems in society, blah blah blah - only to insist that THIS situation isn't what we are telling them it is and that we are wrong, or confused, or misguided, or divisive, or "unhinged" when we try to explain how those individual situations stem from, are part of, and feed into the larger systemic racism they claim to believe actually exists but never they never seem to believe exists in real time when it actually occurs.

[Bluepinky]

294. I agree with your points, there is systemic racism against black people in our society.

But there’s one issue I’m having a problem with. If this 13 year old and others were shooting guns at cars, this is a potentially lethal activity. Were they shooting at parked cars, cars driving by, or at anything that moves? Why were they out shooting in a public area? No matter the race of the shooters, I would want them apprehended and charged. This wasn’t an innocent activity, this activity could have killed or injured someone. So I think the stakes are different than many of the other shootings. I’m sorry the kid was killed, but he was involved in some really bad behaviors. I would hope if it had been a white kid doing it, he would have been pursued just as vigorously.

[StarfishSaver]

300. Too many white people are willing to admit that systemic racism exists

but when it comes to acknowledging it in particular situations, they go out of their way to analyze the scenario to the nth degree, assume facts critical of the victim without any proof, give the benefit of the doubt to the wrongdoer, and then conclude that while systemic racism exists, it didn't exit in THIS case. That's how systemic racism works - and how it's supposed to work. Even well-meaning people can't or refuse to see it and they will bend over backwards to come up with any other excuse for the wrongdoing other than the most obvious and pervasive one. So they're quick to admit that racism exists, it never seems to actually exist in THIS situation ... or in THIS situation ... or in THIS situation ... it only occurs in the abstract.


You have no idea whether this kid was shooting at cars. None. But even if he were, so what? He was not shooting at cars when he encountered and was shot by the police. The fact that he may have engaged in wrongdoing - even lethal behavior - prior to his encounter with the police is irrelevant to the issue of whether it was justified to shoot him in that moment. All that matters is what he was doing in the moments in which he was shot. And in that point in time, he was not doing anything illegal, lethal or threatening. He was ordered to stop and put up his hands. And he did exactly as he was told. And was immediately shot.

Shooting at cars is not a capital offense and the fact that he may have shot at cars earlier did not make him a lethal threat when he was shot.

Another key aspect of systemic racism is that people with power and authority in the system see Black and Brown people as more dangerous than white people in similar situations. They act based on those assumptions and those actions often have lethal consequences. But instead of being held accountable, they are exonerated by people who make excuses for them because they were afraid or they had to make a "split second decision" or they were "in fear for their lives," etc., when all of those reactions and responses are subjective responses based on the race of the person they've encountered, not on the actual circumstances they're facing.

Imagine that instead of a 13-year-old brown kid who may or may not have been shooting at cars in an alley in a minority Chicago neighborhood at 2:30 in the morning, this were a 13-year-old white kid who had been shooting at cars from his front yard in a white Chicago suburb at 2:30 am. The police are called and when they arrive, the kid is no longer shooting, they don't see a gun, and he tries to run away from them. They order him to stop and put up his hands. He immediately stops, drops the gun, puts his hands up and turns around with his hands in the air.

There is NO WAY that any of the people who are trying to justify Adam Toledo's killing because he was supposedly a threat and because he may or may not have been shot at cars earlier or because he should have been in bed would claim that the police were justified in shooting this white boy a second after he put up his hands. They would know that the officer was not in immediate danger and it was unreasonable for him to assume that he was. However, when the same thing occurs involving a Brown child, the assumption that the police officer reasonably felt to be in danger is accepted at face value - without questioning why he felt he was in danger when confronting a Brown child with his hands up but would never have the same fear when confronting a white child doing the exact same thing.

THIS is how systemic racism works. It's not just an abstract. It is an overarching problem that plays itself out in individual cases. So please don't play into it by arguing the murdered child engaged in "really bad behaviors" and suggesting that somehow justifies his killing at the hands of a cop who engaged in the ultimate "bad behavior" when he pulled a trigger and killed a child who had just surrendered to him on his command.

[Bluepinky]

351. I had heard that the police responded because shots were fired

and people were shooting at cars (I don’t know if they were moving cars or parked cars). If I lived in that neighborhood, I would want the shooters apprehended, no matter what race they are. So the police knew the perpetrator had a gun, as the suspect(s) had been shooting at something. The suspect fled the scene when the police arrived. I’m not saying the kid should have been shot and killed, I’m saying he was participating in a dangerous, potentially lethal activity, and he needed to be apprehended. If he was a white 13 year old kid, I would say the same thing. I wish he had not been killed, though, that was clearly wrong.

In cases like George Floyd or Eric Garner, they were not participating in lethal activities and should not have been treated the way they were (let alone killed). At the most, they should have been issued a citation.

You say that even if the kid had been shooting at cars, so what? I definitely don’t agree with that statement. Maybe you don’t care if your car is shot at, but I definitely don’t want anyone shooting at my car.

[CaptainTruth]

138. +100

[58Sunliner]

199. The kid had a gun, he was a threat.

[StarfishSaver]

202. Bullshit

If having a gun makes someone a threat deserving of being summarily shot in the street, the streets would be littered with white men shot by police all across America. But funny how that doesn't happen... Hell - white men who obviously ARE threats as proven by the people they just shot dead don't get shot by the police.

He was not a threat to the cop while running away - that's why police are not permitted to shoot fleeing suspects.

When the cop ordered him to stop and put up his hands, he did it. At that point, he posed no threat to the cop at all. In fact, that's why cops tell people to put up their hands - because people with their hands in the air, even if they have a gun, cannot easily shoot anyone.

The child was no threat to the officer in that moment. He had surrendered.

[58Sunliner]

206. He threw the gun down less than a sec. before he turned. Say bullshit all you like.

I won't be responding to your gas-lighting.

[Atticus]

270. This young man did not just "have a gun". He had fired it at people and had kept it and fled after

being ordered four times to stop.

Your reference to "being summarily shot in the street" borders on unhinged.

You are better than that.

[StarfishSaver]

281. If that's the case, why didn't the cop just shoot him right then?

If he posed such a threat to the officer in those moments, why didn't he shoot him then instead of telling him to stop and show him his hands?

Why did he essentially give him one more chance to surrender, but then when he did, he shot him?

The fact that the officer did not shoot Adam when he was doing the things you claimed suggests that the officer didn't believe those actions did not put him in immediate harm. Otherwise, he would have shot him then and there. Instead, he offered him an out - stop and put up your hands, which is essentially telling him offering him an alternative to getting shot. Once he told him to put up his hands and he did, it didn't matter what he had previously done. The officer had an obligation to immediately reassess the situation to determine the nature and extent of any threat in that moment - not shoot him based on his perceived threat prior to his compliance with the order.

The only thing that changed between the time Adam ran with the gun and second the officer shot him was that Adam had followed the officers orders, stopped running, dropped the gun, and put up his hands. If stopping in his tracks, putting up his hands somehow put the officer in danger that he wasn't in previously, the officer was stupid and reckless to order him to do that.

Moreover, you have absolutely no idea whether Adam had "fired at people." But your willingness to accept every unfounded accusation about a dead child while making every possible favorable assumption about the man who summarily shot him in the street - yes, I said it again because that's exactly what he did - is noted.

[Atticus]

285. I guess we are done. Your post mentioning "deaf child" is the first reference like that I have seen

or heard and you seem to have watched a different video. Your doubling down on "summarily shot in the street" makes further exchanges pointless.

You may have the last word if you think it appropriate.

[uponit7771]

102. Really ?! So lack of training is why non-whites get killed at a disproportionate rate? REALLY ?!

[Hoyt]

151. Didn't say that, didn't even come close. Read it again. Maybe you ought to take

a break.

[uponit7771]

161. My question wasn't rhetorical seeing you did include training as a solution IINM

[Hoyt]

169. 7771, you have posted at least 5 times that the policeman didn't follow training.

He might could have done it differently, but I think his main responsibility in this case was to get that gun off the street, because it shouldn’t have been there. If that teenager and the gun had gotten away, there is no reason to believe it would be used for the good of society. Hence the chase and split second tragedy.

[Arazi]

80. Plus 1 fucking million. Sick of this shit

[Atticus]

128. Are you even aware that characterizing this situation as a "trigger happy cop" shooting a black

child because he didn't 'come fast enough" does not even remotely describe what happened in this incident?

Does what you describe happen? Absolutely, too often. But your description does not fit every incident. And, in my opinion, it does not at all describe this one.

[StarfishSaver]

160. I didn't say he shot him because he didn't comply fast enough. The poster I was responding to did.

Specifically, they wrote: "He complied with the order, but too late" as if that is an excuse for the cop shooting him.

Take your objection up with them.

[uponit7771]

165. ok, ... I'm almost with you in sentiment. This is tiring, the cop doesn't follow training and a kid

... gets killed.

I post CPD Use Of Force guidelines (section 7) to the OP and OP laughs "ha-ha" as a response.

In some peoples worlds they want to believe the cops are always good all the time to make themselves feel safe ... just damn

Its tiring

[StarfishSaver]

184. It's interesting and frustrating that people keep arguing that the cop may have "made a mistake"

but he shouldn't be prosecuted for it. But in the next breath, they express perfect acceptance of the child's mistake being punished by death.

[uponit7771]

190. +1, last summer lost the benefit of the doubt for cops for me. LEOs in some PDs are so racist that

... the see even white people who are marching for justice as people who are the enemy and against them.

It wasn't just one or two PDs who acted like a fool, the cops here in KC grabbed a guy who was calling them assholes, sprayed him and the girl next to him and grabbed him like freedom of speech isn't something he needed to excercise.

The deference given to police by white people mostly in America is what hurts the discourse, any violation of a citizen real or not the BoD goes to the LEO... fuck that, we can't afford that thinking.

[StarfishSaver]

193. Many white people see the police for exactly what they are and why they're there

The police are and always have been in place in order to protect white people and their property from black and brown people. That's the reason police forces were first created, that's the culture that was ingrained in them and that's exactly how they operate and how they are viewed by many white people across the country.

Even many people on DU seem to see it that way.

[58Sunliner]

203. LOL!!

[StarfishSaver]

205. Not the least bit surprised you think that's funny

[58Sunliner]

212. What is funny is your understanding of history and the formation of the police.

Many white people don't have the fantasy that they are not at risk from abuse from the police. I watched my 13 year old brother get beat on my front lawn by 2 cops with billy clubs when I was 7. We are white. When I was raped, I was told by 2 cops, one black, one white, that I must have done something to bring it on. I have no illusions. I have many stories, as my sister was a cop.

[StarfishSaver]

214. I didn't say all white people feel that way. If I wasn't referring to you, I wasn't referring to you

So why get all worked up about my comment?

Your inclination to circle the wagons and jump to the defense of all white people is interesting. I suggest you study some history before you fly off the handle. You might learn something.

[58Sunliner]

215. "So why get all worked up about my comment?"

"Your inclination to circle the wagons and jump to the defense of all white people is interesting. I suggest you study some history before you fly off the handle. You might learn something."


More gaslighting. Give it a rest. It's pathetic.

[Hoyt]

55. Sorry, some how I posted twice.

[Tom Rinaldo]

348. I won't use the word excuse. The cop shouldn't have shot him

But I will say that this particular killing does not seem to be rooted in the same total callous disregard for human (specifically Black human) life as most of the others recently have been. I can and do second guess the decision of this cop. I do also note that this shooting took place in the context of a flurry of actions and motion with the actual possibility of real danger to the officer present, unlike almost all of the other recent executions of unarmed African Americans. The boy who was shot was attempting to surrender. I don't know if he could have avoided getting killed had he frozen for a few seconds first, then raised his hands up, and then turned to face the officer, making it less likely that the cop would falsely assume that the motions being made were "threatening", leading to a premature decision to use deadly force.

[StarfishSaver]

349. If he had hesitated, he would likely have been shot for not complying fast enough

And people would be insisting that he wouldn't have gotten shot if he'd only moved faster.

A cop with any experience and a lick of common sense that someone ordered to stop and put up their hands could respond in a variety of ways, all of them compliant, and not immediately shoot him because he thought his effort to comply was threatening.

And if he thought putting his hands in the air could threaten him on some way, why'd he order him to do it?

[Tom Rinaldo]

350. That's possible. Maybe it's likely, I can't say

The degree of that likelihood probably depends on the specific cop who was involved in that chase. Without knowing the mind set of that cop I can only guess. And I fully accept that there is more than ample ground for anyone to assume the worst in that regard given all that has happened and continues to happen. Granted, I am just a person on the internet with a half formed opinion. I can say with certainty that I would not be among those saying that "he wouldn't have gotten shot if he'd only moved faster"

[dawg day]

15. Docilely and congenially I just want to point out that ascribing objections to this shooting to:

"possibly to prop up the silly agenda which says "All cops are bad and are always wrong."--"


... isn't supportive of your purpose. Who are these people around here who say that?
I for example think many police officers are decent people who have a dedication to helping the community.

But they're not shooting kids with their hands up.

There are definitely some bad cops who should not have a gun and a badge== they are angry, confrontational, defensive, and too quick to resort to violence.

There are also departments and police unions which protect the bad cops from discipline (consider the several departments that protected the killer of Tamir Rice, not to mention the justice system which didn't hold him responsible at any point), thereby discouraging the many good officers who do not want to resort to shooting citizens and antagonizing the community and causing distrust.

There are also training programs which appeal to the worst "fight" instincts of some officers, training them to regard each situation with the community as a threat, and training them to demand utter obedience to their shouted commands.

We can do better. We don't have to demonize all police (and I certainly don't) to criticize a system that routinely protects the worst cops.

I'm not saying this is unique to policing. Medical societies often protect their worst doctors. "Responsible gun owners" often protect the "2nd amendment rights" of abusers and nascent mass murderers.
It's pretty natural to do that, meaning the rest of the community has to insist on more control over the systems so they don't become rogue operations that encourage the rogues.

[Karma13612]

92. Agree 100%

Thanks for your well thought - out and worded response.

👍

[WarGamer]

21. Agreed. And well written.

[catsudon]

24. No criticism from here.

I came to the same conclusion.

this is a tough situation.

[Mr.Bill]

26. What I keep thinking of is before body cams

how many times has something like this happened and the cop said he turned and pointed a gun at him. And we wouldn't even be talking about it now.

[StarfishSaver]

32. The cops still lie, even with the body cams.

They are sure they'll get away with it no matter what. And they're usually right, thanks to the kind of attitude we see in this thread and elsewhere.

[Sneederbunk]

29. No criticism from here.

[TDale313]

35. 13 years old. Hands up. No, not gonna justify this.

You’re a cop who can’t resolve a situation like this without taking the life of a child, you should not be a cop. The killings are too common and need to stop.

[uponit7771]

51. +1,

[SheltieLover]

37. No criticism here at all

Cop did not know kid's age or whom, if anyone, kid might have passed weapon to when he chose to put it through fence.

I do not own a gun but, if I did, in the same situation, I might well have reacted the same way.

Very sad situation!

[StarfishSaver]

44. What he did with the gun before he out up his hands is irrelevant

He put his hands up as ordered. The cop then shot him with his hands up.

Usually, the excuse given to justify cops killing unarmed black men is that the black man didn't comply. That excuses an operable here. So now people are coming up with other bullshit excuses like well he may have handed the gun off to someone else before he put his hands up. Even if he had done that - and there's no evidence that he did - that is absolutely no justification to shoot him.

These kinds of arguments are exactly why people are marching in protest. We are sick of cops killing our children - especially when we know that white men and boys are not subjected to the same harassment and abuse even when behaving in much more threatening ways - and we are sick of people justifying it.

[SheltieLover]

66. My statement is not intended to say that the killing of Black people is OK!

This child clearly made some very poor choices, obviously. One of them was to not just drop the gun on the ground in plain sight, in my opinion.

It is tragic that he was shot and killed.

But, we have to be realistic here. I do not know all the facts, cannot bear to watch the video.

Did the child's arm swing into what might have been perceived as a shooting position? I don't know. I wasn't there.

But I do know that the survival instinct is strong, and hard wired.

It's really hard for me to villify a person for reacting in less than 1 second because someone eventually put their hands up.

If I were physically able, I would be out there peacefully protesting the killing of Black men as well.

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Arazi]

95. You can't even watch the fucking video but want to opine? Jfc

[SheltieLover]

114. Yes

I've read accounts.

Opiniins are like noses, everyone has one.

Apparently you take issue with my comments?

I prefer to agree to disagree.

[Arazi]

126. You're speaking from ignorance. Watch the video. His hands are up, no weapon

He's murdered in cold blood.

Like Tamir Rice, assumed to be guilty, and executed, before the cop took even a single second to evaluate the situation

[SheltieLover]

132. I have no desire to watch the video.

8/10 of a second is not much time.

I do realize that self-preservation is a hard-wired, strong instinct. In fact, it is the primary purpose of brain function.

This is a complex, very tragic situation.

[Arazi]

147. His hands are up. He's complying yet here you are

Opining without the slightest bit of 1st hand knowledge

[SheltieLover]

158. I've read accounts.

Enough for me.

[SheltieLover]

168. That's your opinion.

I'm a very visual person &, as such, opt out of ugly images.

[Arazi]

170. You haven't even watched the evidence

You have no right to comment. Seriously

[SheltieLover]

174. Again, your opiniin.

[Karma13612]

119. The kid has his hands in the air, they were empty

And the cop shot him.

[SheltieLover]

129. Right, after shooting at passing vehicles

In a dark area & after he put the gun behind a fence, rather than dropping it on the ground in plain sight.

Would you have waited to see if the kid had another weapon, or someone else was going to take a shot?

[Arazi]

145. Yes because I'm not a racist psychopath

[skylucy]

41. Atticus---No criticism from me. I have been thinking the same thing.

[Maru Kitteh]

46. I agree with what you.

[Raine]

49. Totally agree. nt

[llmart]

50. You'll get no criticism from me.

If we're going to castigate a young white male for shooting someone in Indiana, we shouldn't expect a young black male with a gun should get preferential treatment either. A guy running around shooting a gun at 2 AM in a dark alley - it doesn't matter to me what color they are. They're breaking the law and a potential threat to a cop.

How would you feel if the cop was your brother, or father, or son and the boy shot and killed him? Would you still give him a pass? I'll bet you wouldn't be so forgiving if it was someone you loved in that police uniform.

[madaboutharry]

52. This argument has been going on for days on DU.

It is disheartening.

I think I am person who is fair minded and tries to look at facts. I am having somewhat of hard time understanding how one believes that this officer was supposed to know Toledo tossed the gun behind the fence in the 8/10 of a second before turning and not realizing the officer had to decide whether to risk being shot and killed himself.

Toledo and the person he was with had the police chasing them because they had fired 8 shots at a passing vehicle. The police were responding to a “shots fired” call.

Yes, this was a tragedy. And more facts will come out. But it is intellectually dishonest to categorize this as an execution, assignation, or by some other inflammatory language.

I know others see it differently. I hope we can keep the discussions civil.

[uponit7771]

59. Like the cop in Minnesota the CPD cop didn't follow training, when that happens and a person is

... killed what are we supposed to call them?

For cops of color its called murder

[Runningdawg]

53. I always have to wonder why cops who are about to be shot - make no attempt to take cover.

[rgbecker]

86. Exactly! Only explanation is the cop knew he was going to shoot him as soon as the time was ripe.

Runs after guy who he thinks has a gun.

Asks the kid to stop so he can shoot him?

Apparently thinks the kid still has the gun and as soon as kid moves his hands to raise them, blows him away.

Only thing the kid could have done differently at that time would be to throw gun towards cop so that the cop could see that he didn't have gun in his hand...but how would that looked to the trigger happy cop?

As soon as the strobe on the gun started, that kid was dead. Just took a couple of seconds for that cop to do the deed.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

133. He could have dropped the gun while he was running.

It appears his desire to toss the gun behind the fence is what got him killed. He had a gun in his right hand and swung his right side to the cop while surreptitiously disposing of the gun. Had he tossed the gun where the cop could see it he might be alive.

My opinion of this shoot has changed after seeing all the video.

There are better views from the fence side here (you have to go to YouTube)

[uponit7771]

130. +1, this one didn't follow well laid out rule of engagement and training period. This was a bad ...

... shooting, if he had just did what USE OF FORCE training said do the kid would be alive.

[Haggard Celine]

60. Agreed.

I watched the video a few times, and it all happened so fast that I couldn't see whether or not the kid had anything in his hand. Combine that with the poor lighting and it looks like a justified shooting to me. Sure, the cop made a mistake; in hindsight, he should have waited until he could clearly see his hands. But a pause like that can get a cop killed, so I can understand why he shot him. This isn't another George Floyd case. The cop wasn't negligent or malicious; he just made a split-second error. The blame for this death is more on the suspect than it is on the cop.

[Jon King]

68. Wrong, he never leveled the weapon or attempted to level the weapon.

This thread is complete nonsense. Several police training officers have been interviewed the past few days. Every one of them says the same thing.....MOST of the time the person will freeze with hands up or almost up and KEEP the weapon in their hand. Its part of the training to look for the hands making any movement down.

The TRAINING teaches them to look for leveling or an attempt to level the gun. In most cases the cop has to give further orders to actually drop the weapon as the scared person will freeze up.

That kid's arms never even made a motion downwards. He can't shoot anyone even if he had the gun in his hand as his arms were up.

[StarfishSaver]

72. Thank you

I defy these apologists to find any experienced cop who will say an officer would ever order someone to put up their hands if they thought doing so would put them in danger of being shot or thay it is appropriate to ever shoot someone a second after they put up their hands on command.

[Jon King]

82. I have seen police training experts from Philly, NY, and several small towns say same thing.

The suspects almost always keep the gun in their hands when they raise their arms. The kid was complying. The cop had his gun pointed at the kid. He was supposed to brace himself while taking aim, and focus on the kid's hands. If the hand's make any movement to level the weapon, then fire.

The cop did not follow his training.

[Hoyt]

90. For Washington DC and Philly Police Chief/Commissioner and CNN expert says differently.

"Former Washington, D.C., Police Chief Charles Ramsey told CNN’s Anderson Cooper that the shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo “was reasonable.”

“Tragic as it was, the shooting was reasonable,” said Ramsey, who was also commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department and currently serves as CNN’s law enforcement analyst, Mediaite reported."

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/548632-former-dc-police-chief-says-adam-toledo-shooting-was-reasonable

[uponit7771]

166. +1, There are so many other use of force tactics the LEO could've taken before even approaching

... the kid.

Its like he said f**k it to training and popped the kid

[Trueblue Texan]

69. I agree with you, Atticus. Nt

[Jon King]

76. Sorry, you folks do not understand police training.

Please read my post above. Most of the time the person will freeze with the weapon still in their hands.. Thats why cops go through training to look for the leveling or attempt to level the weapon.

The kid never made any move with his hands that would be leveling the wepon or even attempting to level the weapon. The cop panicked and did not follow his training.

[uponit7771]

135. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾, I've been trying to make this point that this was a bad shooting for ever ...

... and the LEO didn't go through use of force etc.

[stopdiggin]

173. the suspect's 'hands' were cradling a gun

a fraction of a second earlier. And that is why it's hard to call this anything other than a mistake. It was a slam bam moment under sh*tty lighting, following a foot chase of an individual that is the definition of armed and a danger to law enforcement and the public. Everybody, including the cop, wishes it back. But there's little justification (or logic) in naming it "deliberate" or "murder" or any of the other more inflammatory rhetoric casually tossed about. It was a horrible mistake!

100 percent for more training -- weeding out bad apples -- accountability -- and yada, yada. Not at all sure any of that would have made any difference in this instance.

[Trueblue Texan]

235. agree...

...the cop probably panicked, which by definition does not make it murder. Bad training? bad decision, yes. Not murder.

[Treefrog]

289. Charles Ramsey understands police training.

Do you think you know more than he?

[MoonlitKnight]

88. Hard to take a post seriously

When it basically starts off saying that the poster is going to speak his mind and doesn’t care what anyone else’s opinion is with regard to the subject.

At least that’s how it comes across to me.

[Atticus]

109. It is not that I don't care what others think. It is just that knowing many will disagree with me

will not stop me from saying what I think.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

89. The Child clearly slowed down and stopped running.

The cop, if truly feared for his life, should have also slowed down or stopped chasing completely. The cop continued toward the child and shot him at close range. If the cop was so afraid for his life or thought the child had the gun, then he would not have gotten so close to the child.

[JohnnyRingo]

93. I see your point

Nobody should die at work. The "suspect" would have been further ahead to drop at the first order to stop. The cop may have cuffed him and snuffed him, but few people run away successfully. It's best to be arrested, say nothing, bail out, and get a public defender. The prosecutor will likely not want to try that license plate light rap before a jury.

I've had cops draw weapons on me once. I froze in place and followed instructions. I never thought about outrunning a bullet or hiding my open hands. Same thing I would do in an armed robbery.

Having said that, it seems black people don't get the same courtesy as me. I recognize that.

[ancianita]

100. The parents didn't report their 13 year-old missing for two days.

In the same neighborhood, there's been gunfire in different places in Little Village, around 26th and Sawyer which is near Cook County Jail and courthouse, a residential area near a light industrial area that houses film production warehouses and Lagunitas brewery. Residents have been calling cops every time they hear gunfire.

I've lived in neighborhoods where there's gunfire. I get it. I've lived excellent neighborhoods in north and south sides, been held up at gun point in Hyde Park right near the U. Of Chicago, and can say that a kid running around with a gun that time of night, in that location, given the night tensions of residents, would have been seen by police as up to no good.

Given that context, and the crap year everyone has had, I can understand that Chuck Ramsay, former Chicago deputy chief of police, said that the shooting was "not unreasonable." Doesn't mean I agree. But I understand.

I'll have to say that ONLY shooting as a last resort, and ONLY shooting to disable should be the training, no matter how hot the situation; that no chest or head shots are allowed by department policy; if cops do not de-escalate, disable, but kill someone, they get automatically fired or suspended without pay until all cameras are seen, investigations are done.

A kid should never have to die for being an idiot.
A kid should never have to die for being an armed idiot.
A kid should never have to die for being in the middle of tensions and problems and law enforcement policies he never had a say in.
A kid should never have to die, period.

Any racist sees a black kid as a danger, older, and more adult than they are.
They are none of those things.
They are a kid.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

106. What is your Point

So you are saying he has crappy parents, does that mean he should be shot at close range, after he stopped running? Give me a break.

[ancianita]

120. That is context only. Regardless of context, here's My POINT:

I'll have to say that cop training should be this:
ONLY shooting as a last resort,
and ONLY shooting to disable, no matter how hot the situation;
that no chest or head shots are allowed by department policy;
if cops do not de-escalate or disable, but kill someone, they get automatically fired or suspended without pay until all cameras are seen, investigations are done. No exceptions.

A kid should never have to die for being an idiot.
A kid should never have to die for being an armed idiot.
A kid should never have to die for being in the middle of tensions and problems and law enforcement policies he never had a say in.
A kid should never have to die, period.

Any racist sees a black kid as a danger, older, and more adult than they are.
They are none of those things.
They are a kid.

[Mary in S. Carolina]

152. Amen!

[uponit7771]

176. +1,

[StarfishSaver]

187. Beautifully said

People insist the cop should face no consequences for his mistake but are perfectly fine with a child paying for his mistakes with death.

[Treefrog]

239. You do know that Toledo was not a black kid, right?

[ancianita]

272. Doesn't matter when it comes to kids, though, does it. Doesn't matter.

[Arazi]

103. Thank you for this. 32 DUers plus you. Really. Thank you

Now I know

[Karma13612]

116. I'm not quite following your comment.

What is it that you know?

Thanks if you can just clarify.

[Treefrog]

298. Good luck getting an answer.

Anyway, it’s over 60 now.

[Hoyt]

104. Former Washington DC and Philly Police Chief/Commissioner and CNN expert says "Reasonable." Not cool

with "reasonable," but I think it was an outcome that I can't blame on policeman from what I know now. I hope at some point down the road, it's not "reasonable."

"Former Washington, D.C., Police Chief Charles Ramsey told CNN’s Anderson Cooper that the shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo “was reasonable.”

“Tragic as it was, the shooting was reasonable,” said Ramsey, who was also commissioner of the Philadelphia Police Department and currently serves as CNN’s law enforcement analyst, Mediaite reported."

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/548632-former-dc-police-chief-says-adam-toledo-shooting-was-reasonable

[Karma13612]

107. Nope.

I watched the video.

That kid had his empty hands in the air and still got shot.

[rockfordfile]

121. I agree with some of that

[hamsterjill]

122. Agreed.

This is a horrible tragedy. But the cop did not commit murder.

[dlk]

124. A shot to the chest was an intentional kill shot

Opinions are like noses, everyone has one.

[Maine Abu El Banat]

125. I agree

When we over react to incidents like this we cheapen the real murders of others like George Floyd. And why was a 13yo out at 2:30 am with a gun on a school night. I would like to hear the mother answer that.

[Ferrets are Cool]

127. Yup, you are correct. You are speaking your mind. And I will speak mine

You are wrong. PERIOD.

[Atticus]

140. That is, perhaps, the most honest and respectful disagreement voiced in the entire thread.

Though we do disagree, thank you.

[Ferrets are Cool]

143. +1

Because I respect you and your opinion.

[uponit7771]

149. +1, CPD use of force 2017 section 7 outlines what LEOs are supposed to do and one of them ...

... even states distance like not getting close to a perp they suspect is freakin armed.

That in and of itself could've save some time

[kacekwl]

131. I agree with you completely. This is

Not a case of a cop harassing then escalating a situation involving a person of color for little or no reason like so many others we've seen. To lay the death of Adam solely on the officer calling it an execution based on race is wrong in this case. I've had the opportunity to participate in a class that put me in a live action video that put me in varied situations where I was armed with a gun and was confronted by people, some obviously posed a threat others not so obvious. The decision to fire my gun or be shot or attacked was milliseconds. Sometimes I was correct in my decision sometimes I fired when didn't have to. We also did a school shooting with a unknown number of shooters roaming the school. Again to shoot or not decisions had to be made. I swear by the end I was sweating, shaking and felt ill for days. Believe me there a certainly enough cases at cops killing black and brown people seemingly for sport and fun to justify everyone's outrage and anger but in my mind this is not one of them.

[KatK]

142. Aghast to read this apologia for out-of-control police here at DU. Word fail me. I feel sick. n/t

.

[Arazi]

150. +1 million

[madaboutharry]

155. I am not seeing any one being an apologist.

I am seeing that some people have a different opinion than you.

That is the way the world works. People will have different opinions and see a set of circumstances differently. There is nothing to feel sick over.

[stopdiggin]

219. plenty who abhor out of control police

(and policing) -- and still do not think that every incident necessarily fits that definition. The LE officer was wrong. I'm not at all sure that translates, in this instance, into murderous, malicious, out of control, or racist. (further evidence might convince me of those things -- but as yet I see no reason to assume it) You may disagree if you wish -- but I don't consider the position I take to be 'apologia.'

[StarfishSaver]

226. I don't know if the cop was a racist

But I do know he is operating within a racist culture that encourages brutality against minorities and assumes that black and brown men are far more dangerous than white similarly situated white men. And that culture results in black and brown men being killed unjustifiably.

I also know that he shot a child who had just complied with his orders, which goes against training and he should be held accountable.

I also know that racism is one of the reasons so many people are going out of their way to excuse him and insist he did nothing wrong and are willing to blame the child for his own death.

[stopdiggin]

231. I have no argument with almost all

of what you said. You'll notice that I did not say LE was blameless here. Clearly they were. And I think accountability is in order (in this and every situation). On the other hand, allowing for some condemnation and blame -- is some distance from labeling someone a "murderer." And there's quite a lot of that going on, in this thread and others.

(And, victim blaming, even when it sticks in the craw -- is not always a false construct. The child -- black, white, or brown -- does bear some burden of responsibility here. Lessened by age of course, but still .....
Somebody was taking pot-shots at cars earlier that night. And that is, like it or not, part of the equation. And, no -- nobody said anything specious about carrying a 'death sentence' -- but it does attach blame and confer some share of responsibility for subsequent events.)

[StarfishSaver]

234. Insisting the child "shares the blame" is the same as suggesting his behavior warranted the result.

Your argument is like saying, "I'm not claiming that 13-year-old girl DESERVED to be raped by her classmates. But she does bear some burden of the responsibility because, after all, she did sneak out of the house to go to that party and drank a lot of beer which is a crime ..."

The cop who fired the gun at this child's chest bears ALL the responsibility. He is the adult, the officer supposedly trained in de-escalation who told the kid to stop and put up his hands and when he did just what he was told, shot him point blank anyway.

But for HIS actions, that boy would be alive.

[stopdiggin]

245. we agree on much

and on this not at all. I was crystal clear in saying "not a death sentence" -- but somehow the young person found himself in an alley -- with a gun in his hand. And that -- confers some portion of responsibility.

And, no -- that is not at all the same thing as saying "his behavior warranted the result." Further -- I know you to be far too intelligent to fall for such fallacy, if it were tendered in a different context.

[johnp3907]

148. On the DU homepage you see posts by people you have on ignore.

This is one such post. I made the right call.

[Atticus]

153. Uh, I have never put anyone on ignore. Don't believe in it. nt

[Atticus]

159. Though it is not what you SAID, if you MEANT that you had put me on

ignore, that's fine. I can see why you would.

[AZProgressive]

209. I also still see threads I trashed on the homepage

I see a lot of comments on what the kid did before he was encountered by the police and I would like to point out Illinois isn't a death penalty state.

[flying rabbit]

172. I agree with your conclusions.

Appreciate the post.

[SergeStorms]

175. Atticus, Atticus, Atticus....

you really stepped in it this time, didn't you?

I agree with you on this one. Cops aren't always wrong, and in 1/100 of a second this one made a decision that will probably haunt them their entire life. Most Cops hate drawing their guns, let alone firing on someone. There have been far too many shootings lately, and I think many here are venting their spleens, and no one likes being told they're wrong. This was tragic, but Cops have literally split seconds to make decisions. This Cop thought their life was in danger and reacted. A 13 year old juvenile lost his life because of it.

For those who think the Cop is a "murderer or executioner" let me ask them this; in 1/100 of a second when the kid turned with his "hands up", is it possible the Cop thought those hands were being raised to fire a shot? The kid was told numerous times before to stop and drop the gun, and he didn't. Then he wheels around, after ditching the gun behind a fence where the Cop can't see if he's dropped the gun or not, and raises his hands. The Cop doesn't know if the gun is still in those hands or not, and are those hands being raised to fire his gun? The Cop, fearing for their own life, fires. All in 1/100 of a second.

It's most certainly a tragic end to something that should have never happened, but the kid (and remember, the Cop doesn't know it's a kid at this point) shares responsibility for this terrible tragedy. He took his chances when he picked up that gun and broke the law, and he lost. This Cop is no more a murderer than you or I, Atticus. I'm in the same age group as yourself, and I think we've seen a little more of life, and death, on which to base logical explanations. You knew you were going to catch hell, as do I, but maybe you gave one person reason to take pause and not be so reactionary. If so, you've succeeded. Too bad a kid had to lose his life over such a stupid and tragic mistake.

[Atticus]

179. Thank you. nt

[SheltieLover]

201. Agreed

[58Sunliner]

178. I agree with you. It's awful, and I hate that it happened.

[demtenjeep]

180. I think you are right

this is not the same as the others for sure

[uponit7771]

185. people it doesn't have to be. Murdering someone in slow motion for 9 mins shouldn't be the only

... case being taken to trial.

LEOs should follow rules and training, when they don't people die

[greenjar_01]

188. Yours is an honest account of what happened here

I would add only one small detail. The child and the twenty-one year old were actually shooting at human beings in passing cars. They were literally trying to murder people not ten minutes before this shooting.

[ancianita]

204. Was that info about them shooting at passing cars in any news reports? I didn't come across that.

Do you have a link? Maybe I've just not read very carefully; but since so much discussion comes out of this I'd just like to read more factual context.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

208. Better video here.

You will have to go to YouTube to view it. It’s not gory but it’s flagged for some reason

[ancianita]

216. Thanks! I'll check it out.

[greenjar_01]

238. The video says it all...It's interesting that people keep representing this as shooting at cars

They were shooting at motorists, actual living human beings. They weren't in an empty lot shooting at empty parked cars. They were shooting at people.

[Hoyt]

223. It is better video, but it just makes me want to throw up for kid, parents, neighbors, EMTs, police,

society, and everything. That’s reality and so much of it is avoidable, maybe someday.

I am glad we have these surveillance cameras, body cams, recordings, etc. I think it will make things better in so many ways, someday.

[Beartracks]

189. So he DID drop the gun "as ordered" but did so in a way. ..

... so as to make it seem like he wasn't carrying a gun in the first place? Sounds like he tossed it secretly, where the cop couldn't see him do it.

I have not seen the video.

=======

[StarfishSaver]

198. Seriously?

If he dropped the gun, he dropped the gun. What difference does it make how or why he dropped it the way he did?

And I seriously doubt a 13-year-old in this situation, in the dark with a cop screaming at him, terrified he's going to get shot, has the presence of mind to think, "OK, the cop I can't see just screamed at me to drop the gun. Let me drop it SECRETLY so he won't see that I dropped it."

If the cop ordered the kid to put his hands up and the kid put his hands up, it was up to the cop to look and assess the new situation with the kids hands in the air. The fact that he may or may not have seen him drop the gun is irrelevant. And if he believed that he would still be in danger if the kid put his hands up without getting rid of the gun, he should not have told him to put up his hands.

These excuses are ridiculous. The bottom line is that the cop told the kid to put his hands up and he put his hands up. And he shot him less than a second after he did exactly what the officer told him to do.

[Sunsky]

194. I speak my mind as well

These BS tragic split-second decisions from the police seem to happen less with a certain set of people. The evidence is clear from the recordings IMO. He was unarmed with his hands up at the time of his shooting. Kyle Rittenhouse was allowed to walk free with his weapon after he shot two people and the police were alerted, nobody saw him as a threat. Plain BS.

[Woodwizard]

195. Whole lot of armchair experts here.

OP I agree this was a totaly different situation, life and death is quick and in the moment.

[doc03]

197. I am not getting involved with this discussion nt

[jcgoldie]

210. "All cops are bad and are always wrong."

You think someone here has that agenda? Debate all you want about whether the cop should have shot the kid. But making this hyperbolic claim about anyone who disagrees is what makes your argument reactionary and that accusation belongs on fox news not DU.

[Atticus]

256. Do I THINK some here have that agenda? Have you read this thread? nt

[jcgoldie]

273. yes. I have.

I see a lot of debate of the incident and contrasting opinions which is to be expected in such a tragic event and controversial issue. And I see you in the op trying to devalue the opinions of the many who disagree with you by painting that broad statement that those who feel the killing is unjustified are following some wicked progressive agenda to vilify all police. Thats the sort of argument one would expect in conservative spheres at this time.

[Atticus]

274. When you criticize me for saying something I did not say---that kinda says it all. nt

[jcgoldie]

277. Here is what you said which it appears you have no interest in defending based on this exchange:

"...possibly to prop up the silly agenda which says "All cops are bad and are always wrong.""

[Atticus]

282. Clearly, that was not aimed at "all" who disagree with me plus the word "possibly" does

have meaning. Your characterization of my post is---erroneous.

[Phoenix61]

211. Couldn't agree more.

It’s so easy to look at that still photo and see everything clearly but that’s not how it works in real life. If people were great at perceiving things well when everything’s in motion there wouldn’t be slow motion replays in football. Those are professional observers in ideal lighting and they don’t get it right all the time. I find it interesting people are upset the FBI didn’t do something to take/keep guns out of the hands of the FedEx killer but in this case with a report of gunshots directed at a car, a person running from the scene who kept running, who had a gun in their hand, the cop was supposed to act like they weren’t a threat. It’s tragic and horrible but just like all cops are good guys is bs, all cops are bad guys is bs too.

[live love laugh]

220. Agree. nt

[stillspkg]

225. But, at my age..

Last edited Sun Apr 18, 2021, 12:35 AM - Edit history (2)

Remember the context. We are all old enough to know that those who guard our safety are taught restraint. And, I have never heard of a situation where a police officer is justified in shooting within seconds after shouting an order. Think about the fact that this young man who now literally has no voice is on trial. What has happened to us that we would miss this context. IMHO, this is the very "normalizing" many of us warned about. We cannot be outraged by impassioned cries when those voices are a lifeline.

There is a difference between impassioned care and blind support; one requires little effort. Justice is easily lost in the court of public opinion where good and reasonable people are drawn into arguments far and afield from the context. We can reasonably assume that
the young man who was slain feared for his life. We cannot assume that the police officer was thinking for even one of those milliseconds and yet those milliseconds will matter more than the amount of thought the situation really required. There is a vigilant movement in our country whose target is the disenfranchised among us. Where do we draw the line and,...where is the line?

[BlueTsunami2018]

236. Agreed.

There are many examples of bad shootings and horrendous abuse by police but this isn’t one of them. The video evidence shows there was a split second decision to be made and the officer made the one that kept him safe. There was no way he knew how old the kid was and no way to discern his intentions. His age is irrelevant in this matter anyway. Kids don’t get free shots at people. This whole “Why was he terrified of an unarmed baby?” narrative is ridiculous. Life doesn’t happen in stop motion and the freeze frame photo being used to push the idea that there was an execution of a surrendered kid is misleading at best. It’s flat propaganda that doesn’t reflect the circumstances in the least.

It’s an unpopular opinion around here but unless there’s some new evidence that contradicts what the video clearly shows, I’ll stand behind it until the end of time.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

240. Atticus, in reality it's not up to us to make any conclusions on-line in cases like this.

That's up to the professional investigators assigned to the case. Events like this create tons of case-specific evidence, history and context, most of which we're not privy to. Obviously, the relevant stuff will be presented in court.

We certainly have the right to review what's available to us and reach our own amateur conclusions but should be careful about ranting on any of the specific persons involved on the internet. Thousands of innocent people have had their lives ruined due to being doxxed on social media, public media and/or web discussion boards.

At my age, I'm prone to keep my opinions about news events to myself.

KY

[MillenialDemLXXXIII]

241. No personal criticism of the OP here but as for the "cop"??

Clearly the "law enforcement official" was a racist thug who in all probability just joined the force to kill, maim, or torture as many non-members of the precious "Aryan master race" as possible. The violence against POC in the USA is unspeakable and racism is at the heart of many, many police departments across the nation. Hence, why Trump was so sure the capitol police would join him and help him execute his coup 'd'état. Why was he so confident of their support?

THIS IS A CHILD AND THE DAMN THUG MURDERED HIM WITHOUT EVEN A SECOND THOUGHT OR REMORSE. A CHILD!! A KID!! DO YOU FEEL MY HATRED FOR THIS "LEO" HERE? GOOD!!

[greenjar_01]

244. Everybody knows what you're doing

It's not clever.

[Treefrog]

259. Amusing though.

[Decoy of Fenris]

249. Kevlar isn't bulletproof, and only protects the torso, and not against every type of bullet.

Shots to the legs, arms, and face are still fairly lethal. Lots of arteries and veins.

[Decoy of Fenris]

254. I don't know the answer to most of those questions. Do you?

I simply don't care. A mass shooter, intent on killing motorists, was stopped. That's where my care ends. Nothing else about it (age, race) matters. A mass shooter was killed when he was attempting to kill other people.

[betsuni]

264. With a brick?

[Atticus]

341. As you should have known when you posted your questions. As a courtesy, I will delete

my post(s).

[DiamondShark]

342. Thank you.

[Renew Deal]

265. I'd like to see you take your chances with a Kevlar vest.

Let’s see if you experience any fear.

[LisaL]

268. You have got to be kidding.

Kevlar vests only protect the central body mass. Someone can be still shot in other body parts, like the head, and be killed.

[Duppers]

243. Solution to many cop killings: remove their fear

IF most cops had some convenient equipment that would fully protect them from being killed by bullets, wouldn't they be much less likely to shoot someone?

Not talking about the racists intent on killing or those using their badges to legalize murders.

If cops were required to wear flax jackets & bulletproof face coverings, it could cut down the numbers of these shootings, no?

[Decoy of Fenris]

250. Alt Headline: Active shooter killed after firing at motorists.

If such were the headline, I guarantee you'd see a lot less "OMG COP BAD" intellectually dishonest nonsense.

[Martin Eden]

255. You did indeed draw very intense personal ctiticism

People are way past fed up with all the racial bias and killings at the hands of police officers repeating in an endless cycle of tragedy, with no apparent change in sight. Emotions are running high.

However, I found your OP to be reasonable and logical. None of us can know what was in the mind of the police officer. Was he intent on killing the fleeing suspect from the start -- or in that split second as Adam raised his hands was the officer uncertain whether the gun might still be in the hand which had carried it throughout the chase?

Eight tenths of a second is not much time at the end of a winded pursuit to make a snap judgment whether or not the hand being raised was about to fire the gun it held up to that point.

The video evidence may or may not show the officer failed to follow police training, but anyone who claims to know what was in the mind of the officer at that moment is not being reasonable or logical.

Was the killing a tragic mistake, or intentional murder? Personally, I don't know. That question will likely be decided by a jury.

[CrackityJones75]

260. Let's start with the fact too many people are shot

Let’s start with the fact too many people are shot and killed by cops.

[Renew Deal]

263. The cop will not be charged and if he is he will not be convicted.

Tragic as this all is.

[LisaL]

269. Why should he be charged or convicted?

It would appear 13 year old had a gun in his hand. Sure he threw it away, just before he got shot, but it's a split second decision for the cop to shoot or not to shoot.
In less than a second, that cop had to decide.
He doesn't want to get shot, anymore than any of us do.

[Renew Deal]

271. That's why he won't be charged.

[StarfishSaver]

291. You could say the same thing about 13-year-old Adam

"In less than a second, that cop had to decide. He doesn't want to get shot, anymore than any of us do."

And in that split second, he decided to do exactly what he was told. And the cop shot him anyway.

If the cop thought Adam putting his hands in the air put him in greater danger than he was a second earlier, WHY DID HE ORDER HIM TO PUT HIS HANDS IN THE AIR?

[LisaL]

295. Running around with a gun at night and allegedly shooting at cars

might not be very safe, after all.

[StarfishSaver]

301. Apparently it's also not safe to comply with police orders, either.

And he wasn't "running around with a fun at night and ALLEGEDLY (interesting choice of words on your part) shooting at cars" when he was shot. He had his hands up in the air as ordered by the police. You have no idea whether he was shooting at cars, but it's interesting you're willing to factor that into your justification for his being shot dead on the street by a police officer after he ordered him to put up his hands and he was obviously not shooting at anyone or anything.


We are seeing, almost weekly, that Black and Brown people are not safe no matter WHAT we do. We get shot when we comply, we get shot when we don't comply, we get shot at 2 am. We get shot at 4 pm. We get choked at 11 am. We get killed when we're "running around." We get shot when we're walking home from the store. We get shot when we're jogging. We get shot when we're sleeping in our beds. We get shot when we're in our apartment eating pizza.

So please spare us the he wasn't safe because he was running around ALLEGEDLY shooting at cars excuse.

[LisaL]

302. He was running away from the cop, and he had a gun in his hand.

If cop is chasing someone who allegedly shot at cars, that cop has to be scared for his own life, as he knows the individual is armed, and presumably dangerous. That shouldn't factor?
All righty then.
By the way, the best I can tell right now, when he turns he has a gun in his hand. He throws the gun, and the cop shoots.
Cop had less than a second to make a decision when an armed individual turned toward him.

[StarfishSaver]

305. It is illegal to shoot someone for running away.

But he didn't shoot him as he was running away - at least the cop got that one right. But once the cop told him to stop and put up his hands and the kid did it, there was absolutely no legitimate basis to shoot him.

If the cop actually believed that by putting his hands in the air, the kid was more dangerous to him, then telling him to stop and put his hands in the air was sheer idiocy.

[LisaL]

306. Not really illegal, as far as I can tell, cops can shoot a running felon.

But that didn't happen here, so that's a moot point.

[StarfishSaver]

309. You're wrong. The Supreme Court has ruled it illegal to use deadly force against a fleeing suspect

Read Tennessee v. Garner.

But let's assume it is legal, although it isn't. Why didn't the cop just shoot him as he ran instead of ordering him to stop and put up his hands and THEN shoot him?

[LisaL]

310. I don't think that cop wanted to shoot him.

NT

[StarfishSaver]

312. But he did shoot him, whether he wanted to or not. And he needs to face the consequences.

[mucifer]

293. And IMMEDIATELY calling for the ambulance and starting CPR. I don't believe he wanted

to kill Toledo. It was a split second decision. Being called to a shooting and guns involved. It's so very different than George Floyd with passing a counterfeit $20 and torturing him to death over 9 minutes with an off duty paramedic pleading to help.

[StarfishSaver]

303. How is it a " legitimate shot" if he was shot with his empty hands in the air as he was ordered?

If the cop was justified in shooting him, he would have shot him on the spot without telling him to put up his hands. He didn't. He told him to put up his hands, the kid put up his hands and then he was shot. It is NOT legitimate to shoot someone in that situation, even if they previously had a gun in their hands.

[LisaL]

304. The hand wasn't empty when he turned as far as I can tell.

Him throwing the gun and cop shooting occurred almost at the same time.
But he didn't get shot for running away, so that's a moot point.
And as far as I can tell, when he was turning, the gun was in his hand. He then threw the gun, and cop shot him almost at the same time.

[StarfishSaver]

307. His hand WAS empty when he put up his hands

But if putting up his hands was a threatening gesture in the cop's mind, why did he tell him to put up his hands?

[LisaL]

308. There appears to be a gun in it less than a second before that.

NT

[StarfishSaver]

311. So what

It doesn't matter.

The gun wasn't in his hands when he put up his hands. And even if he was still holding the gun, the point of ordering his hands up is so that the gun is in the air where the cop can see it and it's not pointed at him and the suspect is not in a position to level and aim it. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF ORDERING THE HANDS UP!!!

The fact that he may have had a gun in his hands before he put his hands up is not a justification for shooting him.

[LisaL]

313. As far as I can tell, the gun was in his hand as he put them up.

He puts up his hands and throws the gun at the same time.

[StarfishSaver]

314. "as far as you can tell"

It doesn't matter. When the cop ordered him to put his hands up, he surely took into account that he may or may not have a gun in his hands. That was the point of telling him to put his hands up. So it didn't matter whether he had a gun in his hand seconds before the hands went up or even afterward. When the cop ordered him to put his hands up and he did, he was obligated to assess the situation and determine the nature of the threat in that moment - not based on what had happened moments before.

You can try to justify it all you want, but there was no reason for a police officer to shoot a suspect after ordering his hands up and gaining full compliance.

[LisaL]

315. Not sure WTF you expect me to say if you don't like "as far as I can tell."

The best I can tell by looking at video is that he threw the gun away as he was raising his hands.
So when he turned he had a gun in his hand.
So cop has a split second decision to make at that time.

[StarfishSaver]

316. So, you think the cop's order to put his hands on the air

Was really an order to put his hands in the air so that if the gun was still in his hands, he was justified to shoot him? Except the gun wasn't still in his hands.

Under your logic, there was absolutely nothing Adam could have done at that point to save his own life. He dropped the gun and put his hands up and you think it was fine for him to be shot. If he had kept the gun in his hands and put his hands up, you probably would think it was justified for him to be shot.

So, in other words, as soon as Adam picked up that gun, you think it was justifiable for a cop to shoot him. He deserved to be shot dead and there was nothing he could have done to save himself - even dropping the gun and putting his hands up was not enough.

Maybe he should have just kept running. That way, he at least would have stood a chance of making it out of the encounter alive.

[uppityperson]

331. Uh. Huh.

No avatar yet?

[ratchiweenie]

299. I agree with you Atticus. Did the cop know he was a 13 year old kid? In an instance like this

where the cop is forced to make a split second decision, I doubt they had time to consider all the relevant facts. The kid had a gun and tossed it but I don't think the cop had time to reason it out. So sad but not murder.

[LAS14]

317. THANK YOU for this!!!

I treasure the fact that, compared to the right wing, the left wing values rationality and nuance. But, of course, we don't ALWAYS support rationality and nuance. Sometimes it's just easy (or it feels "required&quot to jump on the knee jerk band wagon. (Yes, I know, mixing my metaphors). I totally support your OP.

las

[Vinca]

320. I agree with you. It's come to the point where a cop has to be shot before he or she fires a shot

to avoid the criticism that ensues. It's a tragic - and unnecessary - death, but understandable. Quite frankly, I hold the parents of this kid more responsible than the cop. Why are they allowing their 13 year old son to be out on the streets running with a 21 year old at 2 o'clock in the morning? If you don't want to take care of your children, don't have children. But, in the end, they'll receive millions of dollars in a settlement for a kid they apparently couldn't be bothered with when he was alive. There needs to be a distinction between a split second decision and a 9 minute kneeling on a neck.

[DiamondShark]

333. Happened less than 20 seconds after the officer got out of his car. A witness claims to have seen

everything and city officials have been giving inconsistent statements on what happened that night since he was shot March 29th to Chicago citizens . This includes saying there was an armed confrontation , or he had a gun in his hand when shot and even in court a prosecutor made false statements This has been what was released in the news’s about the shooting for over 2 weeks
......
As for Stillman, he has four use-of-force reports and three complaints filed against him since 2017, according to Chicago Block Club. His lawyer, Tim Grace, claims Adam was holding a gun at the time he was shot, but the video footage says otherwise. One of the bodycam videos shows that a gun was tossed and found near Adam’s body, but the video shows that it wasn’t in the boy’s hands.

Margarita Gomez, 61, was up the night when Adam was killed and saw everything from the beginning, according to the Chicago Sun-Times. She went to her window after hearing gunshots and saw the police car pull up and grab a 21-year-old man who was allegedly with Adam. Then she saw Stillman chasing the boy and shouting at him.
From her second floor apartment, Gomez says she saw everything and didn’t believe it was necessary for the cop to kill Adam.

Several days after the shooting, a detective went to Gomez’s apartment to get her account of what happened and told her that it was impossible for her to see into the alley where the shooting took place.
Gomez is sticking to her story.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2021/4/15/22386422/adam-toledo-shooting-neighbor-eyewitness-video-released-little-village

https://www.theroot.com/bodycam-footage-contradicts-chicago-police-narratives-a-1846697877

[Atticus]

344. ---"the video shows that it ( the gun ) was not in the boy's hands"??? Video clearly showing

a pistol in the boy's right hand has appeared on TV and on this board.

It may change, but so far, the Gomez "story" is her fact-free opinion that the shooting was not "necessary".

[DiamondShark]

346. You should post on the linked articles and ask the journalist.

Thank you.

[BannonsLiver]

334. The kid made some bad life choices

You go out shooting a gun in the middle of the night you are pushing the personal safety envelope pretty far. In a sense, he bought the ticket and took the ride and it ended badly for him. Not every one of these situations is unjustified and I’m betting in this case the officer will be cleared.

[LanternWaste]

343. A rather self-validating, if irrelevant method to qualify an opinion...

"I don't care what people think of my opinion so much, I'm going to tell them both the opinion and that I don't care what they think..."

Argle-bargle.