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Maybe a dumb question on Assault rifles (Original Post) bluestarone Apr 2021 OP
The suggestion that ammunition be highly taxed or made extremely expensive PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2021 #1
Well, frankly, if the targets of any new taxes are asked: dawg day Apr 2021 #7
It already extremely expensive if you can doc03 Apr 2021 #9
If you can afford a gun that shoots 200 rounds a minute it's not expensive enough. nt AndyS Apr 2021 #22
You would have to tax the components as well. Thomas Hurt Apr 2021 #2
Taxation is a power reserved to Congress sarisataka Apr 2021 #3
I remember a time not too long ago bluestarone Apr 2021 #4
All this would do is anger non-violent gun owners. SYFROYH Apr 2021 #5
Yea you're probably right! bluestarone Apr 2021 #6
Every gun control measure angers many non-violent gunowners. dawg day Apr 2021 #8
Which is why we should pursue something that has a chance of reducing deaths SYFROYH Apr 2021 #12
Open to suggestions then-- dawg day Apr 2021 #31
First step, is to repudiate gun bans. Once gun bans are off the table, there will be room to talk SYFROYH Apr 2021 #39
Disagree Sgent Apr 2021 #15
I'm saying this with all due respect... dawg day Apr 2021 #30
So I'm supposed to give a shit what gun owner want? That is so 1994 thinking. AndyS Apr 2021 #24
..., MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #25
'Tis true. However I do have strong opinions about some topics. AndyS Apr 2021 #27
And others have strong opinions also, MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #28
Back at'cha 🙂 AndyS Apr 2021 #33
Slow your roll there, Andy. I'm for more gun control, too. Just not this type. SYFROYH Apr 2021 #36
Assault rifles use a wide range of ammunition. Some are commonly used for hunting Kaleva Apr 2021 #10
Yea i mean the ones they use most bluestarone Apr 2021 #11
the more powerful rounds can kill humans much faster Kaleva Apr 2021 #16
Doesn't the .223 round have a larger grams of gunpowder bluestarone Apr 2021 #18
The advantages of the .223 is that they are are lighter and being less powerful , have little recoil Kaleva Apr 2021 #19
When I deployed to Vietnam MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #20
I believe the Army is thinking of abandoning the 5.45X45 NATO round for something more powerful Kaleva Apr 2021 #43
That's what I heard also, MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #44
TY. just thought the velosity speed of these type bullets bluestarone Apr 2021 #21
The high velocity is not particularly unique to those rounds DetroitLegalBeagle Apr 2021 #29
+100. nt MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #32
No, the 223 has very little powder. sir pball Apr 2021 #41
Hunters are accustomed to one shot one kill. 'Assault weapon" shooter are accustomed to just spray AndyS Apr 2021 #26
Wish I could rec this, MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #34
Strange bedfellows! AndyS Apr 2021 #35
I have no desire to own any firearms, I recently sold my Colt 1911 ACP because I just MarineCombatEngineer Apr 2021 #37
There is no unique assault weapon ammunition hack89 Apr 2021 #13
Yes i did hear this before. I forgot that BUT bluestarone Apr 2021 #14
They tend to fire the so-called intermediate ammunition. Kaleva Apr 2021 #17
It's not about the ammunition. Straw Man Apr 2021 #23
Might not be constitutional in the vein of Minneapolis Star v. Minnesota Comm'r Amishman Apr 2021 #38
Count on the gunsplainers to show up. Kingofalldems Apr 2021 #40
Taxing one type of ammunition will eventually mean having to tax them all. YMB Apr 2021 #42
Ammunition tax Crepuscular Apr 2021 #45
Exactly...if you outlawed whatever car was highest in DUI accidents it wouldn't effect the DUI count EX500rider Apr 2021 #46

PoindexterOglethorpe

(26,001 posts)
1. The suggestion that ammunition be highly taxed or made extremely expensive
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 03:17 PM
Apr 2021

has been made lots and lots of times. Can't imagine that the makers and sellers of ammunition would be willing to go along.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
7. Well, frankly, if the targets of any new taxes are asked:
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:20 PM
Apr 2021

"Do you want to be taxed?"
They will say NOOOOO!

That's why taxes aren't voluntary.

And "sin taxes" which charge "sin sellers" like tobacco companies for a small part of the damage they do to the society is a time-honored and quite justifiable way to capitalistically deal with these problems.

I'm sure there are many considerations, but anyone who buys tobacco or even gasoline knows how heavy the taxation can be. And there is also the clear benefit that buyers -- to save money- will cut down on consumption-- smoke less, drive less.

When the only downside is ammo manufacturers lose a bit of their profit, well, it could be a good policy.

Three mass shootings in three days kind of brings out the vengeful capitalist in me.

Thomas Hurt

(13,903 posts)
2. You would have to tax the components as well.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 03:17 PM
Apr 2021

You can make your own ammunition by purchasing some reloading presses, powder, shells and bullets.

sarisataka

(19,503 posts)
3. Taxation is a power reserved to Congress
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 03:18 PM
Apr 2021

although they have delegated certain powers to the executive, but I don't think Biden would be able to do so.

SCOTUS has ruled that excessive taxes on materials needed to exercise a right are an unconstitutional restriction on the right, the case being an extra tax on printer's ink as a restriction on freedom of the press. A similar tax on ammo would be struck down on the same principle.

bluestarone

(17,389 posts)
4. I remember a time not too long ago
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 03:22 PM
Apr 2021

You couldn't even find 22 long rifle shells on the shelves at any sporting goods store. THIS needs to happen again!! To add here maybe some BILLIONAIRES need to buy all the ammo!

SYFROYH

(34,193 posts)
5. All this would do is anger non-violent gun owners.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 03:25 PM
Apr 2021

Last edited Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:04 PM - Edit history (1)


Anyone planning a mass shooting will just put it on a credit card because they know they’ll be dead or in Jail.

Most shootings are just a few rounds. Just one for most deaths with guns .

If you piss off the Fudds it’s all over for gun control.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
8. Every gun control measure angers many non-violent gunowners.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:22 PM
Apr 2021

Somehow the mass shootings don't anger many of them nearly as much.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
31. Open to suggestions then--
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:03 PM
Apr 2021

What gun control measures will 1) reduce death, and 2) pass state legislatures and Congress? and "without pissing off gun-owners"?

I'm at a loss.


SYFROYH

(34,193 posts)
39. First step, is to repudiate gun bans. Once gun bans are off the table, there will be room to talk
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:36 PM
Apr 2021

The point is not to avoid all gun owners being angry just the reasonable middle.

Toomey-Manchin style background checks (with the friends and family clauses) will get more votes
Raising the age for semi-auto ownership to 21 or 24 might get enough votes, too.
Magazine bans over 33 might work because it only impacts a few owners and manufacturers.

I think those are the low-hanging fruit.

The NRA and the energized primary voters in many are fighting everything because too many gun controllers have said their real goal is to ban some classes of guns.




Sgent

(5,857 posts)
15. Disagree
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:53 PM
Apr 2021

I own a few guns, and the ammo tax would piss me off. Requiring a background check and waiting period for all transfers including private sales I would support, as well as quite a few more. I might even support a ban, but then come out and say it.

Note, I do not own anything that could be considered an "assault rifle" but my .308 lever action hunting rifle uses the same ammo.

dawg day

(7,947 posts)
30. I'm saying this with all due respect...
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:01 PM
Apr 2021

but... how important is your being pissed off? I mean, I get pissed off at all sorts of things. I don't like paying property taxes (up 20% suddenly!), and I get pissed off at the gas tax and I really get pissed off that I pay many times more in income tax than "billionaire" Trump.

I'm pissed off a lot-- just ask my partner how often I yell at Wolf Blitzer.

I'm just not sure that us being pissed off about something is more important than something that could prevent the utter devastation of families and communities when there's a mass shooting. IF (and I know that's a big IF) making ammunition for these sorts of weapons more expensive is a way to get around the refusal of 20% of the population but 55% of the legislators from enacting a ban on these weapons...
Sorry. Got lost in that sentence! But maybe it will help, you know? maybe it won't, and if not, what suggestions do you have that will work?

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
24. So I'm supposed to give a shit what gun owner want? That is so 1994 thinking.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:43 PM
Apr 2021

We Democrats have a plank in the platform (unlike Republicans that DON'T HAVE A PLATFOM) that favors increased gun reform. Get with the program or change parties to that supports your personal platform.

MarineCombatEngineer

(12,758 posts)
25. ...,
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:45 PM
Apr 2021
Get with the program or change parties to that supports your personal platform.


There are differences of opinion on the issue of gun control and you aren't the arbiter of what's acceptable to discuss on DU.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
27. 'Tis true. However I do have strong opinions about some topics.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:57 PM
Apr 2021

And among those opinions is a belief so strongly held about the Democratic Party Platform that if you can't at least support the platform as a whole and get so hung up on one particular issue then perhaps there are other options. Abortion, LGBT, GUNZ or what ever it is that makes you so upset just may be more important to you than voting D.

MarineCombatEngineer

(12,758 posts)
28. And others have strong opinions also,
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:01 PM
Apr 2021

telling someone who has a different opinion than yours to either get with the program or find a different party is not conductive to a good conversation.

You have a pleasant Sunday afternoon.

SYFROYH

(34,193 posts)
36. Slow your roll there, Andy. I'm for more gun control, too. Just not this type.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:19 PM
Apr 2021

I think the OP made a well-intentioned suggestion with which I disagreed. My point of the previous email is why propose a law that won't reduce killings and only alienate more potential allies who are not violent.

I get to call myself a Democrat. You can like it or not. Why don't contact the DNC and report SYFROYH on DU. They'll be glad to go from there.

The platform of which you speak doesn't include increasing taxation. Here it is in case you haven't read it yet.

And just a reminder: This platform plank is about reducing gun violence -- it's not anti-gun.

In a country as great as ours, no child should be afraid to go to school or walk around their neighborhood. No spouse should be afraid to come home at night. No American should be afraid to go to work or their place of worship. And no human being should be afraid to go to a shopping mall or baseball field, nightclub or movie theater, concert or college campus.

But too many politicians act as if gun violence is just a fact of everyday life. They offer only thoughts and prayers as tragedies unfold, while accepting millions from the National Rifle Association to stand in the way of even the smallest reforms.

We must stop pretending that we are powerless to prevent gun violence. That’s why for decades the Democratic Party has put forth policies that would help prevent the carnage that has become all too common in schools and communities across the country.

Democrats believe that we can reduce gun violence while respecting the rights of responsible gun owners. We believe we should expand and strengthen background checks for those who want to purchase a firearm – because it shouldn’t be easier to get a gun than a driver’s license. We believe we should ensure that guns don’t fall into the hands of terrorists (whether they be domestic or foreign), domestic abusers, other violent criminals, or those who have shown signs of danger toward themselves or others. And we believe we should treat gun violence as the deadly public health crisis it is.

Democrats stand with the students, families, and organizers who are fighting to enact these commonsense policies to keep our communities safe, once and for all.

Kaleva

(36,595 posts)
10. Assault rifles use a wide range of ammunition. Some are commonly used for hunting
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:34 PM
Apr 2021

Or are you actually talking about ammunition the so-called assault weapons (not assault rifles) are considered to mainly use? Like the .223 Remington, the 5.56×45mm NATO, the 5.45×39mm and the 7.62X39mm.


"An assault rifle is a rifle that uses an intermediate cartridge, a detachable magazine, and can switch between semi-automatic/fully automatic fire. Assault rifles are currently the standard service rifles in most modern armies."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assault_rifles


bluestarone

(17,389 posts)
11. Yea i mean the ones they use most
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:46 PM
Apr 2021

I believe the .223 shells! ( i think this is the ones that kill lots of people FASTEST)

Kaleva

(36,595 posts)
16. the more powerful rounds can kill humans much faster
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:55 PM
Apr 2021

Any round that can drop a moose, a grizzly bear or a bison can do a number on the average human being. Some states prohibit the use of the .223 Remington for hunting deer (male deer can weigh between 150-300 lbs) because it isn't considered powerful enough to kill the animal almost immediately and thus reduce suffering.

bluestarone

(17,389 posts)
18. Doesn't the .223 round have a larger grams of gunpowder
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:01 PM
Apr 2021

Like say the 22-250? Same bullet but larger casing? I thought that's what they are shooting in these AR. type riffles.

Kaleva

(36,595 posts)
19. The advantages of the .223 is that they are are lighter and being less powerful , have little recoil
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:13 PM
Apr 2021

Producing little recoil because they are less powerful, it's easier to keep the rifle on target. And being smaller and lighter then the high powered and more deadly rounds, a person can carry more. A single 7.62X51 NATO cartridge weighs about twice as much as a single .223 Remington cartridge weighs.

The advantages of rounds like the .223 Remington is not that they are more deadly, they aren't, but they are deadly enough and along with the other advantages I listed , the round is preferred by mass shooters.

MarineCombatEngineer

(12,758 posts)
20. When I deployed to Vietnam
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:19 PM
Apr 2021

we were issued the heavy and bulky M-14 which chambered the 7.62x51 NATO round, the advantage was that it had more stopping power than the new M-16's 5.56x45 round, the disadvantage was the we couldn't carry as many rounds because of the weight and size.

I sure did miss that M-14 when we transitioned to the lighter M-16.

MarineCombatEngineer

(12,758 posts)
44. That's what I heard also,
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 07:45 PM
Apr 2021

I believe this is what they're replacing the M-4 with:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a19183026/us-army-squads-new-marksman-rifles/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Army%20has%20chosen%20a%20new%20rifle,armor%20at%20longer%20ranges%20than%20existing%20M4%20carbines.

U.S. Army Squads Getting New Marksman Rifles
The new rifle is the same weapon issued to army snipers
.


The U.S. Army has chosen a new rifle designed to allow infantry squads to hit targets at greater ranges. The Heckler and Koch G28 designated marksman rifle will give infantrymen a weapon guaranteed to penetrate enemy body armor at longer ranges than existing M4 carbines. The move is an acknowledgement that the Army could someday fight enemies equipped with advanced body armor, which is part of the Army’s reorientation to the world of conflicts between large powers.

Shortly after the invasion of Iraq, U.S. Navy SEALs began deploying to the country armed with the “new” M14 Enhanced Battle Rifle. The M14 EBR was an older M14 battle rifle accurized, fitted with a new chassis, and equipped with a bipod and long-range scope. The EBR was designed to provide long-range fire where M4 carbine-type rifles fell short.

The U.S. Army later jumped on the bandwagon, fielding EBRs in Iraq and Afghanistan. The rifles were generally issued to soldiers with a higher level of marksman training, who could provide security as the rest of their unit went about their business or pick out and eliminate specific threats.

bluestarone

(17,389 posts)
21. TY. just thought the velosity speed of these type bullets
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:19 PM
Apr 2021

Really tears a body apart when it hits it! Doing MORE damage. Is this the type round that is used in the AR type weapons? Or is that a completely dif round? I'm talking about the FED X shooter here.What type did he use?

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,966 posts)
29. The high velocity is not particularly unique to those rounds
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:01 PM
Apr 2021

All rifle calibers shoot at a pretty high velocity. Most of the common deer hunting rounds are faster and hit harder due to their larger caliber, bullet weight, and greater gunpowder load. The .223/5.56 round is just the most commonly used in mass shootings because that is what an AR15 is most commonly chambered in, and the AR15 is the most common semi auto rifle in the country. The .308 and 7.62x39 are probably the next most common calibers in semi auto rifles, and both hit harder then a .223/5.56 since they shoot bigger bullets, and in the case of the .308, at higher velocity then a .223/5.56.
Pretty much any rifle shooting one of the common calibers will cause horrific damage to the human body. The specific caliber doesn't matter much.

sir pball

(4,821 posts)
41. No, the 223 has very little powder.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:50 PM
Apr 2021

You have it exactly backwards - the .223/5.56mm round is one of the least powerful .22 centerfire rifle rounds; virtually every other 22 caliber in production uses a larger casing with more powder. The 22-250 you mention has a case capacity of 44.6 grains, the .223 is 31.4.

Its a misconception that the .223 is a powerful round, in fact it's not uncommon to see it and other 22 caliber rounds restricted for hunting use as they are too weak to guarantee an immediate kill: the 223 has a muzzle energy of 1,325 foot-pounds, while Grandpa's 30-06 has 2,913. The lethality of rapid-loading weapons as used in mass shootings is a result of the high rate of fire as opposed to the relative deadliness of their ammunition...magazine capacity restrictions, or the elimination of detachable magazines (on ALL types of firearms), would be far more effective than regulating the ammo.

AndyS

(14,559 posts)
26. Hunters are accustomed to one shot one kill. 'Assault weapon" shooter are accustomed to just spray
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:50 PM
Apr 2021

pray. Hunters, the really skilled shooters, don't need or want 200-400 rounds a minute. We can afford $2-3 a round. Idiots who like use such things as bump stocks (now regulated) all bitch and complain about $.05 a bullet tax.

I don't. I hit what I shoot at. My ammunition already costs more than $1 a round. Another $.05 or $.10 or even $1.00 a shot isn't something I'd notice.

MarineCombatEngineer

(12,758 posts)
37. I have no desire to own any firearms, I recently sold my Colt 1911 ACP because I just
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:28 PM
Apr 2021

don't want firearms in my life anymore and I don't want to leave it in my motorhome while out on the road and I certainly didn't want it in my truck as I constantly cross state lines.

While I have no desire to have a firearm, I certainly don't want to impede on lawful citizens right to own firearms, but there is, IMO, no right to carry them in public like what we have now.

I like your idea about the ammo, it wouldn't, again IMHO, be an undue burden on firearm owners.

I enjoy the back and forth with people I have a difference of opinion on many subjects, but, as you can see, I do try to keep it civil, sometimes though, I do fail.

Strange bedfellows indeed!!




bluestarone

(17,389 posts)
14. Yes i did hear this before. I forgot that BUT
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 04:53 PM
Apr 2021

I'm thinking most killings taking place, they are using the .223 cal bullets? That's the ammo i talking about. TY for your input here.

Straw Man

(6,657 posts)
23. It's not about the ammunition.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 05:40 PM
Apr 2021

There are military-style rifles in many calibers. Although the .223 is the most common, it is not uniquely deadly, despite much misinformation to the contrary.

Amishman

(5,571 posts)
38. Might not be constitutional in the vein of Minneapolis Star v. Minnesota Comm'r
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 06:36 PM
Apr 2021

Minneapolis Star v. Minnesota Comm’r was a first amendment case that said that Minnesota could not pass a targeted tax on the supplies needed for printing newspapers as this inhibited actions protected under the first amendment. I can see this logic being applied towards bullets and the 2nd.

Since the ammo in question is used by many kinds of guns, more than just assault rifles, it might be more likely to be protected than the assault weapons themselves.

 

YMB

(63 posts)
42. Taxing one type of ammunition will eventually mean having to tax them all.
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 07:02 PM
Apr 2021

Which will not only piss off the the right (which many wouldnt mind regardless), but a decent amount of people on the left and center as well. Going after one or a few types ONLY means manufacturers start making new guns/ammunition types or outfitting existing ones in the non-taxed calibers. The AR platform alone supports 70+ calibers already, not just .223/5.56.

Crepuscular

(1,058 posts)
45. Ammunition tax
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 10:53 PM
Apr 2021

Not sure how many are aware of this but since 1937 there has been an 11% Federal Excise tax on guns and ammunition, known as the Pittmann Roberston tax, named after the legislators who sponsored the act which imposed it.

It has generated hundreds of millions of dollars, which are then re-distributed back to the states for conservation funding.

So an ammunition tax is certainly not an impossibility. If it gets too high, then I suspect it would be challenged under 2nd amendment grounds.

Btw, there is nothing unique or special about the cartridges commonly used in assault style weapons, the same cartridges are used in bolt and pump action rifles or in a variety of pistols.

Probably 95% of the mass shootings that have occurred in the last decade or so, could have been just as easily accomplished with non-semi-automatic weapons, with technology that dates back almost 150 years. It is wishful thinking to assume that banning certain weapons will have any kind of a tangible impact on the violence that is becoming all too common. Better mental health services, legalizing and de-criminalizing some drugs and addressing the systemic social and economic issues that have created gang cultures in urban areas, would be much more likely to have transformational impacts in the long run.

EX500rider

(10,952 posts)
46. Exactly...if you outlawed whatever car was highest in DUI accidents it wouldn't effect the DUI count
Sun Apr 18, 2021, 11:12 PM
Apr 2021

drunks would just drive another brand.
Same goes for guns.

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