For most who are on police departments, Us vs. Them is everything.

[MineralMan]

The cops think they are "us" and everyone who insists that the authorities follow the laws are "them." While not all cops are OK with beating down journalists covering something or with racist cops harming or even killing minorities, even those who would not do that will not stop another cop from doing it. "Us" trumps "Them" every time.

You give people weapons and a uniform and they become a closed "Us" group. Any attempt to control that group will be met with solid opposition. Even if it is a small minority of cops who enjoy taking it out on "them," the rest will refrain from objecting strongly enough to stop those bad cops.

That is the central problem we're facing right now in making the police and other authorities follow the rules. There is no internal push to do so, and those who do not follow the rules get away with it.

"Us" vs "Them"

[uponit7771]

1. Yep, especially if the "them" are mostly non-white or poor. We can do better holding leadership in..

....PDs responsible

[StarfishSaver]

3. And many white people see themselves as part of that "us"

Or, at the very least, see themselves as the group of people who are being protected from "them" by "us."

[KPN]

2. I would also note that the radical right-wing co-opts

the “police” into their version of “us”. Ditto the military/national guard and “militia”. —. We damn well better protect our voting rights because social as well as economic justice for all depends on us outnumbering them at the polls, which we do when we GOTV.

[Ocelot II]

4. Yes. I used to know a few Minneapolis police officers.

They were friends of a friend. I remember sitting at a pizza joint with the friend and these cops, and I distinctly remember one of them saying, "There are only two kinds of people - cops and assholes." This was almost 30 years ago, and I would hope training has improved in the meantime (or maybe it hasn't), but the mind-set at the time was definitely an us vs. them thing.

[multigraincracker]

13. I was married to a cop for a couple of years.

It is worse than you think. Only about 5 percent in her dept were honest and most started out being guards at the jail.

[bluestarone]

5. True words! Plus when you add the x-military to the police force

You're adding a BROTHERS like problem too! (when the military fight together, they become brother like) I feel the training needs to be MONITORED, video needs to be watched CLOSELY! Someone has to in charge of the training for sure! THAT'S a big problem i feel.

[Claire Oh Nette]

7. Military training shouldn't be a pipeline to Police departments

Soldiers are an occupying force, a lethal one at that.

Outside of MPs, soldiers are not trained to step into policing. Knowing how to shoot a weapon isn't policing. Most police never fire their sidearms. Militarization of the police (a police department in Iowa, Iowa, ffs, has a tank, and an MRAP. Why?) creates an occupying force within the states, counties, cities, towns.

The Oathkeepers--ex military--are violating the oath they took. Every single one of them ought to be recalled, and charged with sedition under military justice. I mean, traitors are traitors, no matter how nice they look in uniform.

If these people want war on the United States, fine. The military can court martial them all and we can make Leavenworth Kansas a booming economy as we expand prison space.

The DOJ, the Defense Department, the FBI, all of Federal law enforcement needs to come down hard. This i no joke--these people want to do harm to all of us to impose their vision of America on us all. ANd no one died an left them kaiser.

Hard pass.

[bluestarone]

8. AGREE! That's why i stated this is

Another problem with the police hiring x-military! Wish there was a way to STOP the hiring of x-military.

[Claire Oh Nette]

11. Redefine policing

WHat is it we want the police to do?

Serve whom? Protect whom? Protect What?

Police don't stop too many crimes in progress, do they? We do need patrols for crimes in progress, that's one level of policing. WHat kind of crimes?

Armed police for traffic violators? Maybe not. Highway Patrol/road patrol? OK--what has to be enforced with a stop, and what is administrative and can be handled with video surveillance, pictures, radar, and fines assessed through DMV? Different type/level of policing.

Security guards to protect property? Maybe more of these--unarmed--and fewer cops paid to be security.

Detectives and investigators? Yes--more, since cpolice don't solive that many crimes, maybe 30%?

Plenty of job descriptions are rewritten all the time. Policing falls under social and community services. Military training is good for obedience and weaponry, but none of the above requires knowledge of how to dismantle and reassemble an AK...

Whole new career paths, and types of training. We ask too much of the police, and we allow them to operate in a sea of handguns, then wonder why they are triggered.

Systemic racism built into policing has created the very problems they are hired to fix.

We hav eto address guns in society. Not who should and shouldn't have them, where we dance around mental illness as though that's the problem. The problem is too many guns, and police being asked to provide social services and "crime fighting " and marital counseling and psychological crisis counseling with 6 months training and and proficiency with weapons of war. WHat could possibly go wrong?

Undo military surplus, and get rid of the fucking guns.

[qazplm135]

6. this all stems from the "war on crime" in the 80s

It turned particularly inner cities and rural areas into "war zones" that needed to be "patrolled" to stop "out of control" crime.

It's also part of the "war on drugs" during that same period.

You end up creating an environment of danger, threat, and fear...a wartime environment.

You create a perception of police being a highly dangerous job, when statistically, it falls behind loggers, fishermen, farmers, grounds maintenance workers, first line supervisors of mechanics, installers and repairers, aircraft pilots, and 15 total other professions before you get to police officer.

Is it more dangerous than the average job? Definitely. Is it warzone type dangerous? Not even close. But that's the perception that was built to justify the increase in funding and to get "law and order" politicians elected and re-elected.

[Claire Oh Nette]

9. war on drugs

This.

Johnson declared War on Poverty and brought about medicare/medicaid, and secured the Voting Rights Act.

Nixon responded with the War on Drugs. Code for Black people. because white folks use plenty of drugs, too...

When drugs wasn't enough, Reagan brought War on Crime, and made poverty a crime.
Then Bushes war on terrorism.

Republicans love to declare war on abstract ideas.

[qazplm135]

10. I'm ok with war on abstract ideas

it's when war is on people that it becomes a problem, which is what republicans have been doing since Nixon (and before).

[RANDYWILDMAN]

12. It is a lack of Empathy plain and simple

Trump and his followers have it in bunches.

If police had empathy they would understand the public a lot more.

Second the police should not use traffic tickets as fundraiser, it undermines people's respect for them and rots out their integrity.

[MineralMan]

14. Thanks for the replies. Here's what I think needs to be done:

First, implement a civilian Police Control Board with the power to fire police personnel at all levels, from the Chief on down. No current or former police officials should be on that board, which should include a diverse mix of residents of the jurisdiction, clergy, and social services people. The board should reflect the community in terms of diversity.

Second, take away the power of the police union or federation to block dismissal of police personnel. Fire rogue cops immediately, and let them take it to court if they choose.

Third, require all police personnel to reside in the jurisdiction where they serve. Period, and at all levels. In Brooklyn Center, MN, which is the current story, not a single police official lives in that community. There is zero connection with the community on the part of those who enforce the law in that community.

Fourth, prosecute excessive use of force cases vigorously in the criminal courts. Stop the practice of paid leave of absences for offenders. If they are exonerated, give them back pay and put them back to work. If they are found guilty, they should be sentenced according to the same standards as anyone else and should never work as police officers again. That would require changes in state laws, no doubt.

Finally, hold senior police officials, from the Chief right down to precinct supervisors, responsible for the behavior of the officers under their command. Make them answerable to civilian officials in the jurisdiction. In egregious cases, fire their asses or prosecute them.

[LetMyPeopleVote]

15. Good suggestions/proposals

Having the police live in the jurisdiction that hired these officers is a very good idea

[ProfessorGAC]

16. +1

All very sensible, and far more salable than "defund".
I'd add the elimination of qualified immunity, which has morphed into quantified impunity.