Are we really going to sit here and pretend there's no alternative to police gunning down teenager

[Soph0571]

Columbus police - the fatal police shooting of a 15-year-old girl - releasing bodycam that shows her attempting to stab two women - cause of course killing her was the only way to deescalate the situation *rolls eyes*

Link to tweet

It’s like swaths of the US have been gaslit into believing that lethal force is the correct response to just about anything

No judge, no jury, no punishment fitting the crime. Just total, full on lethal force. Well, if they’re black or brown anyway

Even as the verdict in the Chauvin trial was coming in they still shoot from the hip.

[uponit7771]

1. K&R, Americans are conditioned to believe Americans are so bad that we need to be gunned down

... at every perception of threat to anything.

Just take that thought and apply it too people who shoot black Americans 21 times more than white Americans.

I don't know why a taser couldn't have been used in the case of the 15 yr old girl, 5 bullets ?! really?!

[Soph0571]

3. You know?

In the UK, we have a knife crime culture, the police don't habitually go around armed so the trained to restrain not kill. It should not be that hard

[uponit7771]

4. +1, it seems in the UK the police care about the relationship the LEOs have with the communities

... they are policing while here the police are nearly rewarded for ruining those relationships with any means necassary.

[oldsoftie]

11. "perception" of threat? Watch the video; the girl is about to stab another person.

If it were YOU, i bet you'd be glad he did what he did.

[48656c6c6f20]

22. When viewed in slow motion

It is clear there is a blurry object in her hand. I was not aware the Columbus police had time dilation equipment. But its a good thing because that cop was able to exit the vehicle, identify a knife and intent within seconds. The only explanation is time dilation tech. Or..
Cops pull out guns instinctively in calls that have black folks involved.

[greenjar_01]

35. The cop immediately stated that she tried to stab the other girl, and was correct in that

assessment.

I don't know what you're on about regarding time dilation, but the officer saw the knife, saw her thrust the knife at the girl in pink twice, and come back for more, and acted on that. It's possible to have different opinions on what he should have done, but are you really claiming that the officer didn't see the knife - or couldn't have seen the knife without slow motion - when he immediately said "She tried to stab her" like 3 seconds after the shooting?

Here's what it is: You didn't see the knife absent the slow motion. You, somebody watching a shaky body cam video, didn't see it. That doesn't mean the officer didn't. He clearly did.

[48656c6c6f20]

38. You didn't see it either

So all I have is the word of a cop. That fuzzy video doesn't show shit. Yet you take the word of someone you've never met, never interviewed, have no knowledge of his intent. And made an informed decision? Please never serve as a jury member. That logic will send innocent people to prison.

[greenjar_01]

40. The cop said that Ms. Bryant tried to stab the other girl

That is obviously true. She was thrusting a large knife, blade out, at another human being...and a dog! The girl was literally holding a small dog, which she dropped to go into a defensive posture.

So, he was correct. He made that statement immediately afterwards. So, he saw and correctly identified in real time what everyone else sees in (but you refuse to admit even with) obvious slo-mos and freeze frames.

You can play your little games with interpreting the video any way you'd like. Reasonable people agree on the fact that Ms. Bryant was thrusting a knife at another human being at the moment that she was shot. Now, reasonable people can disagree on what should have been done in that scenario - I am not myself sold on the idea that shooting was necessary - but to say that the cop wasn't making (and couldn't possibly have made!) a correct assessment - that Ms. Bryant was at the very least assaulting somebody with a deadly weapon, if not attempting a murder - is just silly.

[48656c6c6f20]

48. You are investigating this incident?

I was not aware you were part of Columbus police IA department. My apologies. So what else is in your report from when you interviewed the officer? We would all like to know.

[greenjar_01]

52. It's in the video

You want a time stamp?

Do go on, though.

[Ms. Toad]

90. The girl first swung the knife at another girl right in front of him.

He did not shoot her at that time. (The appropriate call - there is no way he could have identified the knife, assessed the threat, and safely aimed.) This other person is the girl in the foreground below, so you can see how close the girl with the knife came to the police, giving him an up-close view of the knife.

The shots were fired after she pivoted and took off after a second girl. They were fired simultaneously with her swinging the arm with a knife at a second girl who was pinned between the girl who was shot and a car.

As for being blurry - I'm sure you've had the experience of pointing your camera (or cell phone) at something that is crystal clear to your eyes - and the photo comes out blurry. The same thing happens with videos - videos are thousands and thousands of stills that are stitched together so that the single frame nature of the images is not apparent to the naked eye. They are very good - but are still subject to the limitations of motion (of the camera and what is being filmed), lighting, etc. It generally much easier to see in person that watching a grainy video taken via a camera placed on a moving body. Eyes are far more sophisticated than cameras; the camera is just a tool to confirm what the police say they saw.

But here's the knife - and it is pretty clear (top center pane).



It is a tragedy. But given the clear threat in that moment to the girl in pink, I can't fault the choice made by that officer.

That said, it is a preventable tragedy - we must do better at providing resources to help families, finding ways to respond other than sending in people with guns, training both police and communities in de-escalation tactics, and more, so that we don't repeatedly - especially in black and brown commmunities - find ourselves in the situation in which someone with a gun has to make a split second decision as to whether to shoot one person to save the life of another.

[48656c6c6f20]

107. Thanks

It's always good to hear from someone at the scene and was able to get the cops testimony.

[Ms. Toad]

108. I wasn't at the scene -

I'm just reporting what I observed in the video - and what I know as a potographer about photographs and videos.

[questionseverything]

123. The five shots seems excessive

Makes a person wonder, could this have gone differently with a crisis team earlier instead of the police

[Nexus2]

109. Wasn't the call about a person armed with a knife/possible attempted stabbing? [nt]

[2naSalit]

27. Really?

So the only way to interact with her was to kill her? That thinking is what perpetuates the rampant killing of black and brown people. The "he had no choice" argument is so worn that it not only has a rind on it, it is full of swill left over from authoritarianism that has to go by the wayside. When that rind finally ruptures, as we are seeing now, everyone who is able can tell that it's a hardshell ball of shit that needs to be disposed of. The stench of that shit is so intense that it can be smelled around the entire globe.

[ExciteBike66]

42. What is the other option here?

She was thrusting her knife at the other girl, what else could the cop do from 10-15 feet away?

EDIT: I am being sincere. I want you to list the other options he had in the situation.

[2naSalit]

50. Taser?

Tackle her? Knock her feet out from under her?

Pepper gel?

A gun was the first and only option?

That makes the cop judge, jury and executioner in a very short time. He should decide that she should be dead?

[ExciteBike66]

51. Taser has one shot and doesn't always work, also it wasn't in his hand

so he would have had taken valuable time switching weapons.

He wasn't close enough to hit the girl physically, so no sweeping the leg, karate kid.

How would pepper stop her arm from thrusting the knife?

If there is any time that a cop may use deadly force, it is when someone is in the immediate act of murdering someone else.

[2naSalit]

53. Wow.

[ExciteBike66]

54. It's true, he had no other options.

The girl was in the process of committing a murder on another girl. The cop saved the other girl's life.

[uponit7771]

79. This is wrong, the current tasers have up to 3 shots in them

[marie999]

87. She was on the other girl. She would have stabbed her before he could pull and taser her.

He did exactly what he had to do to save the other girl.

[ExciteBike66]

112. What model taser did the cop have?

[uponit7771]

78. ***FALSE*** Current tasers have up to 3 shots

[Celerity]

139. Don Lemon and other CNN shows had a series of experts on that said a Taser was highly unlikely

to work in this situation, almost all of the experts were also PoC as well. They went into great detail why aTaser was ot a good option in this tragedy.

The consensus was that the cop saved the girl in pink's life. Funny how her (also a PoC) life is left out of equation by some.

[Arazi]

72. There are options. There are ways to disarm a knife wielding suspect

Without killing them.

Here's one training course as an example (there are many)

http://www.nletc.com/knife-defense-disarming

This binary choice that it has to be a gun or nothing is bullshit

[wnylib]

110. Was the cop close enough to use

a restraint and disarming tactic in time to protect the girl in pink? Genuine question because I can't tell the distance accurately from the video. I am somewhat familiar with the restraint techniques since my husband (who was not a cop) went through a training program for using them.

[oldsoftie]

59. Yeah, if someone is about to stab ME, I hope a cop would shoot them too.

Because there's NO TIME to do anything else.
Authoritarianism my foot. This is a cop defending a girl from BEING STABBED.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

68. +100. nt

[uponit7771]

80. This is false, use a 3 shot taser

[oldsoftie]

114. A Taser dart doesnt deploy nearly as fast as a bullet. The likely result is a stabbed girl.

Especially with the backswing start the attacker had.
Cop did what he had to do to possibly save that girls life.

Dont try to stab people & especially dont try to stab people in front of a cop.

[pnwmom]

135. Bullets are much, much faster and more accurate. Tasers are not accurate beyond about 10 feet. n/t

[uponit7771]

141. ... and greater lethal force than an adequate stopping power of a taser. Like Maddow said ...

.. find a black person offending kill it, a white person offending with the premeditation to harm?

Set them free without bail,

I'm sick of this shit ... people with little field knowledge or experience with tasers arguing their efficacy to justify in their minds the needless killing of that 15 yr old girl

[uponit7771]

77. She could've been stopped with a taser, she's 15 and knowing she could've been stopped with

... a taser I would be thankful for being alive but not that she was dead.

[pnwmom]

136. Assuming the officer had a taser, a taser can't shoot its target nearly as quickly as a gun can.

And in this situation, time was of the essence.

[uponit7771]

140. Yes a taser can be discharged just as quickly as a gun the projectiles aren't as fast and ...

... they don't need to be when we're talking about .002 of seconds and he did have a taser on his person.

The information about tasers and the use are minimal either that or people are stretching to their safety places to explain away why a gun was used when a taser would do fine and most likely would not have been as lethal.

That's OK, I agree with Maddow for people of color in America "justified" is enough to use as much lethal force as possible and that's 100% fucked up.

[gldstwmn]

121. Plus I saw two other cops in the video.

She was flailing around with that knife but she was not coming towards any of those cops. She could have been tased from several different angles.

[uponit7771]

122. +1, I just read about that the other cops did not pull out a gun and get busy

[bucolic_frolic]

2. We need to study methodology in other countries

Our training and methods are inadequate in my limited view. Policing needs to be part of criminology, it needs to be a profession and not just a 20 year pension plan. The stereotype of donut paunch and gun must end. Fitness of mind and body. Psychological filtering for the profession must be enhanced.

[ShazzieB]

5. I am SO sick of this shit. 🤬

"It’s like swaths of the US have been gaslit into believing that lethal force is the correct response to just about anything."

I think it's more like there are way too many cops in the US who seem to operate on the assumption that ALL poc, regardless of age or other physical characteristics, are raging, murderous hellbeasts who are always up to no good and can only be controlled by the use of total, full on lethal force.

It's disgusting and infuriating nd ludicrous, and it has GOT to stop. Until and unless it does, black people will not be able to safely walk the streets of this country.

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

6. Looks like he saved the other girl

From a stabbing

[oldsoftie]

60. To reasonable objective folks, yes. To agenda driven ones, no way.

[sinkingfeeling]

7. Is it because half the country belives a gun is the answer to any and all

problems in life? Domestic argument? Romantic rival? Traffic irritant? Scared? Don't like your neighbor? Get a gun and shoot.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. People are willing to pay this price rather than try abolition.

Copaganda is a helluva drug.

[Sunsky]

9. Amen.

I expect to ignore many of those posts and posters on here today.
4 times. Is there something wrong with the way we train our police officers? I grew up in another country where I have witnessed the police shoot someone in their leg, who posed a greater threat than this child. He was hopping around when they took him into custody but he was alive. I've witnessed them de-escalate situations without discharging their weapons. It's like the police here learn nothing other than to use their guns especially went the situation involves a person of color.

[oldsoftie]

10. Bullshit. The girl was in the process of STABBING someone. There's ZERO time for anything else.

Watch that video; it was an active fight when the cop got there; with at least one already stabbed.
We rightfully condemn the shooting of unarmed & unthreatening people.
But NOW people want to condemn a cop for stopping a possible MURDER right in front of him?
As another poster pointed out, age doesnt matter when someone is a lethal attacker

[AZProgressive]

12. Since people think it is important to bring up what a Chicago 13-year-old

Was doing before police showed up it is also important in this case. Bryant was the one who called the cops because she is in Foster care and was threatened by older kids with assault.

NPR

The girl has been identified as Ma'Khia Bryant by her aunt, Hazel Bryant.

Bryant allegedly called officers at about 4:30 p.m. local time when a group of "older kids" threatened her with assault, her aunt told Ohio Statehouse News Bureau Reporter Andy Chow. She did not elaborate on the nature of the threat.

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/20/989342784/16-year-old-black-girl-who-called-for-help-fatally-shot-by-police-ohio-family-sa

[jaxexpat]

13. So, it was a kid trying to save her own life from her tormentors....

......in a place she's supposed to call home? And then gets shot dead for her trouble?

My Lord. We know very little of the ceaseless desperation that, for so many, is life.

[Karma13612]

20. May just need to borrow this quote, if you don't mind?

“We know very little of the ceaseless desperation that, for so many, is life.”

That statement is so powerful.

[jaxexpat]

58. Thanks. Those of us who presume to overcome few challenges fulfilling our desires cannot know.

We've graduated from adolescence without obvious scars, having known worthy adults personally whom we regard with affection and admiration. We've found wisdom in modeling from what we've seen of their grace.

What if there were no accessible and positive role models in our spheres of experience? What if it had always been escaping from one bad situation after another, having no, or only poor, spur-of-the-moment choices from which to model expertise and mastery? Unwittingly accepting the company of the foolish and transitory gratification to represent accomplishment? Because every moment could hide a sinister aspect, there is no trust even in one's own self, only a facade of bravado masking impenetrable incompetence in any worthwhile thing. And add to that a universal distain from our fellows. Life with a target painted squarely on one's back. Imagine an entire community of persons eating from that plate.

It is nearly always appropriate to assume nothing in this world. That's especially true when judging others.

[Karma13612]

143. Wow!

Apologies for my absence of response.

How profound and true. You should be consulting or offering counseling with your wisdom, insight and way with words.

[ExciteBike66]

44. If she was scared for her life, why was she running at the other girl?

[oldsoftie]

15. We'll see what comes out of the call investigation,

but if she's the one who called the cops, then why didnt she tell him who was threatening her as soon as he got there? In the NPR article it also says the caller said someone with a knife was threatening them. This girl had a knife. Did she take it from others? Or did others call? We dont know. But in the moment the cop is there, a person is about to be stabbed. Even as he's yelling at her to get down. Either he lets that person get stabbed or he stops it. No win situation for him.

[StarfishSaver]

29. Because a frightened teenager is supposed to know the exact correct way to call for help

So that the police she called to protect her don't shoot her 10 seconds after they arrived?

It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who insist that cops were justified in shooting people because they were caught and a heated moment and didn't have time to think will turn around and insist that untrained civilians - in this case, a child - are supposed to behave with perfect calm, logic and presence of mind in the most trying of circumstances.

[Act_of_Reparation]

49. No one is saying the police shouldn't have stopped the stabbing.

They are critiquing the methods used. Specifically, was shooting the girl the only option?

I'm gonna say probably not. And as long as we're going to armchair quarterback victims' behavior post hoc, I don't understand all the consternation over doing the same to the cops.

[StarfishSaver]

56. Cops get the benefit of the doubt and who are we to second guess them?

The dead Black girl ... That's different.

[Act_of_Reparation]

100. But but but but... she wasn't robotically rational in a high-stress, fight-for-flight situation!

Cops are human beings and get to make mistakes under stress. Black kids don't, apparently.

[StarfishSaver]

101. Yup. The guys with the gun can go all Barney Fife because they're scared

[pnwmom]

138. But there is also a Black girl (the one in pink) who might be still alive today

because the cop shot the girl who was lunging at her with the knife.

[StarfishSaver]

16. What happened before police showed up or before the camera started recording

only matters when trying to excuse the inexcusable ... "I know it looks like the cop shot a black man in the back while he was running away, but we don't know what happened before the video started."

But here, we're getting "it doesn't matter what happened before. All that matters is that in that 10 seconds, it looks like that girl was trying to stab someone."

[Sunsky]

17. Exactly

I have seen no reports that anyone was stabbed. Yet the poster claimed someone was stabbed.
It seems as if only certain people are allowed to protect themselves and the only weapon to protect oneself with is a gun. If early reports are true, Ma'Khia was trying to protect herself and she called the police. If the intent was to murder someone, I don't think you'd call the cops prior. George Zimmerman antagonized Trayvon and murdered him with his gun, yet he was found to be standing his ground.
Again the police showed up on a scene and became the judge, jury, and executioner. Ma'Khia won't ever be able to tell her side of the story.

[StarfishSaver]

30. Only white men can stand their ground

[StarfishSaver]

14. I assume that's a rhetorical question

[Karma13612]

18. What would have happened if

The two struggling on the hood of the car had moved during the shooting? What if the one being threatened with the knife had somehow moved so that THEY were the one who got shot. Seemed like a risky shot for the cop to take. It wasn’t a clean shot for sure.

I am not going to ‘arm chair/back seat/ call this shooting.

But I have to agree that it seems the ONLY avenue cops use is lethal force.

[StarfishSaver]

21. "the ONLY avenue cops use is lethal force" ... when dealing with Black and Brown people

[Karma13612]

23. Indeed. And sad.....eom

[Bettie]

55. Right? It seems to be the only "tool"

in their box.

Black or brown person? Check: shoot, then figure out why it was "justified" later on.

Is there no training in de-escalation?

[Roc2020]

19. She was about to either kill

or seriously injure that other girl. Give the police credit when they do their job right. I didn't see an alternative.

[StarfishSaver]

25. The issue is not whether the cop should have taken action to protect the people there

The question is why he thought the only possible way to so his job was to fire 5 bullets into a teenager's chest.

It's possible that this was the right thing to do. But given the history and culture - as exemplified by other cops' "Blue Lives Matter" taunts as this child still lay on the ground - he is not entitled to a presumption of innocence.

People are quick to proclaim the girl was wrong and deserved to be shot but did in their heels and refuse to make any negative assumption about a cop's behavior, notwithstanding all of the reasons they've been given to be skeptical. People are far too deferential to the police - many white folks see them as their protectors while many of us Black people, for good reason, see them as a force to be wary and distrustful of.

[ExciteBike66]

45. List the other options please.

You keep harping on the cop having options, so list them.

[bluestarone]

106. One that i can think of is ONE SHOT.

WHY FIVE?

[ExciteBike66]

111. So the shooting is justified if it is only one bullet?

Your problem is not with shooting per se, but with the number of shots fired? I agree with you on that. In this situation where the girl is clearly stabbing someone else, I don't really have a problem with 4 rounds being fired, since the suspect was using deadly force.

That said, there is certainly an argument in general that police should shoot less and check to see if it worked before proceeding.

[bluestarone]

113. Just saying ONE SHOT STOPPED the attack!

WHY continue? It was STOPPED>

[ExciteBike66]

116. Do you have a link to a video of the whole thing, that doesn't cut out when she is shot?

I can't find one now, every news org cut out the part with the shooting.

[bluestarone]

117. NO. BUT

From what i saw, he COULDN'T miss the first shot!

[ExciteBike66]

118. I am certain he could have missed, it's a quick moving situation

and cops are not always known for hitting their targets.

[questionseverything]

124. That he is a lousy shot isn't a good defense

He should be able to disarm in a shot or two max

Five shots was excessive, any shots questionable

[ExciteBike66]

132. Any shots questionable? She was committing a murder!

Why do you think the girl in pink was supposed to take a knife in the neck?

[GulfCoast66]

126. Could not have missed?!? Have you ever trained with a handgun?

I had a reason to in my younger years. A 3 meter shot if tough to hit repeatedly even in a static range situation even with ample time and no adrenaline flowing.

Real life is not the movies you have watched. Handguns are hard to aim. The short barrels make them so.

And real life is not like the movies when a bullet hits. You can’t know until the target goes down. Harsh, I know, but that is the fact. It’s not like the movies when blood splatters everywhere.

That young lady in pink is safe and healthy today because of that’s cops actions. Would you rather see her stabbed? Because she was about to be. With a big knife. Not a 3 inch pocket knife. But a 6-8 inch blade which could have easily had hit her liver or heart, resulting in a fatal stab.

[womanofthehills]

129. One shot In her butt or legs would have done the job

Why always shoot to kill. She has a mom but was in foster care - and felt unsafe in her foster house -

[ExciteBike66]

133. Shooting her in the butt or leg would stop her arm?

She was in the process of stabbing the other girl.

Also, aiming for a moving leg is a difficult thing, which is why no one is expected to do it.

[TheRickles]

34. So shoot her in the leg. Police are trained how to aim, right?

[Tommymac]

37. Wait for it...police are trained to shoot for the biggest body mass, They can't aim. etc. etc. etc.

[ExciteBike66]

46. How does shooting her leg stop her arm from thrusting her knife?

[oldsoftie]

62. OMG another movie buff.

[FSogol]

66. He should have shot the knife out of her hands!

[MarineCombatEngineer]

67. You've been watching to many movies,

a leg shot can be lethal also, especially if the Femoral Artery is hit, the person would bleed out in seconds and be just as dead.

[Tommymac]

36. Police in other countries routinely deal with knives.

And very rarely resort to lethal force.

Here lethal force is the go to method when dealing with people of Color.

There is ALWAYS an alternative.

Start by hiring non Racist police and train them in a civilized 21st century manner.

[pnwmom]

137. The girl in pink who was on the verge of being stabbed was also Black.

The alternative would have been risking her life. Was her life worth less than the life of the girl about to stab her?

[Tommymac]

142. Strawman argument. Please do better.

[pnwmom]

144. Please explain. The life of the girl in pink was clearly at risk. This is not a straw man.

I would like to know how the police in another country would have handled this identical situation and protected the life of both girls.

And I know that a taser can't be accurately aimed at that distance and that tasers can't travel at the speed of a bullet, and that time and accuracy were both critical elements.

[madville]

24. Policing is going to have to change

Instead of rapid armed response, policing will have to become more of an afterthought to write reports, get statements, and process crime scenes. The current model is too dangerous to the public.

[samnsara]

26. a bullet to the leg would have stopped it i think :(

[WhiskeyGrinder]

31. Badjacketing is a shit move, and don't worry, plenty of us don't like the cops already.

[StarfishSaver]

32. Poor, misunderstood cops

If only we were nicer to them and cut them more slack ...

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. Whomst could expect them to act differently, knowing what animosity lies in the human heart?

[wendyb-NC]

39. This has to, stop.

I am in tied in knots in my whole being over, this. Why, damn it, why does this play out yet, again.

At the very same time, the guilty verdicts are read out, in the trial Derrick Chauvin. I was so grateful, to hear that, finally the killer is held to account. I kept saying Thank you over and over, and Amen, finally.

Then when I heard this news of a 15 year old being shot and killed by a police officer in Columbus, Ohio, and that she had called 911, to report an altercation, going on in front of her house and she was afraid for her safety. Knife or no knife, she was fifteen, and doing the right thing, by notifying the authorities.

I can't stand the fear and panic level, the makes lethal force the first option, for action. Especially, if the incident involves people of color. It's shameful, revolting, outrageous, and every other damn thing. I am fed up.

[ExciteBike66]

41. She was in the actual act of murdering someone else...

If that is not a reason for a cop to use deadly force, then you might as well take away their guns because nothing is.

"No judge, no jury, no punishment fitting the crime. Just total, full on lethal force. " This is an accurate description of what the girl with the knife was doing to the other girl.

[marie999]

43. I have not read one post that gives a meaningful way the officer could have reacted to the situation

other than the way he did. Unless an investigation of the shooting shows that the girl was not trying to stab another person I consider it a clean shoot.

[ExciteBike66]

47. Starfish Saver swears the cop had options, but doesn't ever tell us what they are...

[Wednesdays]

63. See post #50. nt

[oldsoftie]

69. NOT an option in this case. Girl in pink would've been stabbed by the time the TAser deployed.

They dont fire like guns.

[JT45242]

57. Neighborhood eyewitnesses reported that the girl had a knife and tried to stab the other girl

The fact is multiple witnesses -- not just the cop -- said that the girl who was shot had a knife and was trying to stab the other girl.

From that distance -- with more people potentially in the way -- was there any way that he could have charged and disarmed her without any other civilians getting hurt?

This is sad -- but I do not know what else he could and try to protect the girl who was being stabbed.

Now -- if you want to address whether the training to shoot for center of chest twice is the best training -- that is understandable. I have spoken to a lot of officers who have been trained to shoot twice in the chest if they ever have to fire. They have all told me that the first time you actually have to fire it is normal to pull the trigger two to four extra times because of the stress of the situation. Maybe, the training should go back to shoot the leg -- but it is a smaller target that moves and may not stop a dangerous assailant.

The old argument was that assailants on drugs would only get angered and ramped up by being shot in a leg -- maybe it is time to rethink this.

I am saddened by the death -- but I really do not see what else the officer could do to minimize the risk of death to the other unarmed people in the crowd. Not with as escalated as the situation was by the time he got there.

[JuJuChen]

61. I know they're "kids" but have you seen the size of these "kids"?

I can't be the only one going, "That's 15??"

[WhiskeyGrinder]

64. Black children and teens are routinely seen as larger and older than they actually are,

and larger and older than white people "think" they "should" be.

[Raine]

128. She was larger then the girl in pink along with having a knife

and having the unarmed girl in pink backed up against a car.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

65. Abolition now.

[kcr]

70. I'm afraid that outrage over this

is going to set back the Chauvin verdict. I'm sorry, but I seriously don't get it.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

74. What does this mean? The verdict is in; it can't be "set back."

[uponit7771]

81. DU doesn't have that kind of pull and the cop could've used a multi shot taser

[kcr]

83. Tazers are torture devices overused by police to enforce compliance

They are not entirely non-lethal, and shouldn't be carried at all. I don't even think most cops should even be carrying guns, but in this instance, the cop had one and he happened to use it appropriately.

[uponit7771]

88. So being plugged 5 times isn't torture and tasers have a greater chance of full stop than

... bullets as we see.

They are less than lethal than shooting we do agree with that

[kcr]

95. Tasers have contributed heavily to the problem

Tasers are perceived as harmless and non-lethal. They don't break bones or shoot bullets, so cops are much quicker on the draw. But they are torturous and aren't entirely non-lethal. They aren't effective at stopping violence. They are effective as torture instruments for compliance and nothing more.

[StarfishSaver]

85. How does a discussion on an online discussion board "set back" a verdict?

[kcr]

86. How is it that we're the only ones talking about it?

I must be imagining things.

[uponit7771]

94. DU is fairly woke information wise

[kcr]

97. Only DU. Nowhere else

lol

Also lol at how woke DU is. My nickname for DU is Old White Underground.

[uponit7771]

91. right ?! some of this smells like FUD

[StarfishSaver]

93. White folk love telling black folk we need to be quiet so we don't mess things up

And now we're being told that expressing concern and even outrage about a police shooting in Columbus will somehow undermine a murder verdict in Minnesota.

[uponit7771]

96. lol, like if don't whisper & shit the cops gonna shoot everyone and Biden is going to turn on BLM

[Arazi]

71. There are many, many training courses on disarming a knife wielding suspect

Without killing them. Including courses specifically designed for cops

Here's one of many options. That police DECIDE to use guns first is a deliberate decision

http://www.nletc.com/knife-defense-disarming

[brooklynite]

73. And there's a difference between...

Encountering a person WITH a knife and Encountering a person USING a knife.

[Arazi]

75. Unarmed police around the world de-escalate without killing suspects EVERY DAY

Including those with knives.

That we have chosen to resort to guns first without other less lethal options isn't working.

[kcr]

76. When they are actively using the knife

I think the choices get narrowed significantly. If someone is trying to stab me, I don't want talk. I want action. I think the girl who was on the business end of that knife deserved the same thing.

[Arazi]

82. I'll never understand the mentality that believes "shot dead" is a cop's only choice

Virtually the entire rest of the world's police (except failed states like Somalia) don't operate like that.

Only we do.

It's fucked up.

Police around the planet are trained on how to disarm murderous knife wielders. Taking another's life isn't done as cavalierly as America

[kcr]

84. It's not the only choice

I'm not an apologist for police brutality. You can check my post history. I just don't see how this is an instance where the officer was in the wrong. I'm saying this as someone who thinks most cops shouldn't even be carrying guns in the first place.

[sarisataka]

89. There are such courses

Although they are not often geared towards protecting a 3rd party.

But for the sake of debate, say the cop tried to disarm the girl with the knife. She could have stabbed the other girl 2-3 times before the cop could have covered the distance to the girls.

What would you say if the stabbed girl died of her injuries?

[Arazi]

92. I'd be sad and horrified but that's a hypothetical

She might just as well have lived and Ma'Khia would be in juvie.

Thing is that option isn't possible because the cop decided to simply kill her immediately.

[sarisataka]

98. Everything we are discussing is hypothetical

Every point and counter point is a may or may not have stopped the assault.

While I believe you and probably other would feel sad and horrified I also believe there would be a larger number who would criticize the racist cop who stood by and watched a black girl get stabbed to death.

[Arazi]

104. You're assuming the other girl would have been stabbed to death

What's a fact is this officer escalated to maximum force and killed Ma'Khia Bryant within 10 seconds of arriving, with zero effort at any alternative techniques.

The use of immediate maximum force by officers against black/brown people is also a fact.

Tbh, this is a futile conversation.

I tried to actually discuss the Daunte Wright situation last week, took up my entire day off trying to explain why there's rage about these incidents and why (predominantly white) people trying to justify them receive big pushback.

So feel free to have the last word. I have other more productive shit to do today

[sarisataka]

105. I'll stand by you 100%

In the case of Daunte Wright.

I was onboard with charges for George Floyd's murder from day 1.

I think a grand jury should review Adam Toledo's shooting.

Sometimes however something must be done immediately and sometimes it is maximum force.

[LizBeth]

99. "lethal force justified for about anything" when discussing a girl with knife in motion of a stab.

If people ponder the righteousness of stopping someone from stabbing another, it in no way validates the argument that then "swaths of the US has been gaslit into believing that lethal force is the correct response to just about anything".

One can consider the justification of a cop shooting the assailant without the mind set that cops should use a gun whenever and however they want like that comment suggests.

[malaise]

102. Global data shows that is is absolute rubbish

That is all.

[malaise]

103. Global data shows that is is absolute rubbish

That is all.

[brooklynite]

115. And by "pretending" you mean "having a different opinion than you do"?

[ibegurpard]

119. Some are apparently

The Columbus shooting was obviously a lot more complicated than first reported but I'm not convinced a shooting was the inevitable outcome.

[uponit7771]

120. +1,

[Stinky The Clown]

125. There are some, right here on DU, who are doing exactly that.

They are complaining that this very police killing was righteous. Nothing more that could have been done.

[Kaleva]

130. which is the view of most everyone

People are limiting themselves to sending thoughts and prayers by posting and not doing much of anything else.

One can tell a lot by how strongly someone feels about an issue by what they actually do in response to it.

[jcgoldie]

127. Shoot her four times in the chest! It was the best he could do!

There was no other option that bullshit is all over this forum.

[Decoy of Fenris]

131. As to why five shots were fired:

Guns aren't like the movies make them out to be. There is only as much 'stopping power' on a firearm as the charge expended to fire the bullet. In handguns, most bullets use relatively low velocity charge, meaning there's less recoil than, say, a .308 Hotload.

Now, I know that sounds awful "Gunner", and it is, but there's a reason cops are trained to fire off several shots; One shot from the average handgun, in the heat of the moment, will not have enough stopping power or 'shock value' to stop an assailant. Having been shot by a low-caliber weapon, I can tell you that it's possible you don't even feel it other than a mild, annoying sting. It hurts later, but on initial impact, there's very little 'feedback'. If you've got adrenaline pumping (as the knife-wielding woman probably does), it's entirely possible she never felt the first, second, or even third shot enter her body.

With a police firearm, several shots may be needed to reach a point where a threat is considered 'neutralized', and you don't know where each shot lands every time you fire; there's no 'hitmarker' and you don't know what the target is doing as they react, whether they're falling to the ground or going for a concealed weapon, or you might have missed every shot and they just tripped. There's a hundred different variables that always change and shift as time moves, so followup shots are a part of training. (I'm not even going to address the 'Shoot the knife out of her hand!' nonsense because it isn't worth my time.)

And since I know "But tasers!" will come up as well, tasers on an armed individual are generally avoided due to the harm they can do to the people around them while seizing, as well as the danger they pose to themselves. Often the body will seize with the dominant arm clutched against the chest, so the attacker in this case would likely have stabbed themselves.


This is about as close as you can get to a 'justified shooting' as you can get. If the cop didn't shoot, an innocent would have been gutted in the streets. I seriously question the motives of those who want to let the girl in pink get slaughtered like an animal, since clearly -that- black life doesn't matter to them.

[pnwmom]

134. She didn't just have a knife in her hand. She was gripping a knife as she lunged toward a girl

who was pinned between her and the car. And she was inches away from being able to stab her in the neck.

I would like to know how police in the UK would handle a situation like that, not simply one of a girl standing by herself with a knife in her hand.