"Reform police" progress toward justice. "Abolish police" anarchy. ( They have more guns ) nt

[Atticus]

[WhiskeyGrinder]

1. Who has more guns?

George Floyd? Eric Garner? Breonna Taylor? Ma'Khia Bryant? Philando Castile? Justine Damond? Daunte Wright? The cops?

[Kaleva]

7. Oath Keepers, white mass shooters, Michigan Wolverines, your average Trumpster, etc.

I very highly doubt that the LEOs who went and arrested the Jan 6th rioters did so unarmed. We do know the LEOs who faced of against the Bundy bunch in WA were heavily armed.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. I have some very bad news for you about the cops.

[Kaleva]

23. What are you doing about it then?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

25. Working for abolition.

[Kaleva]

26. How?

I take climate change seriousy. so, I spend anywhere from a few minutes to several hours most every day working to better adapt to the predicted changes that will happen in the area I live in.

One of the things predicated to happen is shortages of foods so in that regards, I'm in the process of converting the two lots that make up my backyard into a vegatable garden and fruit orchard. I spent several hours working on it yesterday and after i post this, I'll go back there to clear the brush from that trees that ere taken down. Trees that blocked sunlight fro the future orchard during part of the day.

I posted the below in the Frugal Living group earlier this year:

"Spend time fishing for suckers and learning how to clean, can and pickle them. There is no daily limit on how many one can catch.

Install a vent free LP gas heater in the basement. They don't cost much and it would be quite useful during a power outage during winter. Another option would be to install a flex gas line to terminate in the office and when needed, I could hook up the gas heater to the line. This setup would provide more heat to the main living area rather then having to rise up the basement stairs, into the kitchen and then to the upstairs

Plant the summer bearing and fall bearing raspberry plants I have already ordered and paid for.

Install an emergency waterless toilet in the basement next to the utility sink. Also install a shelf near the basement ceiling for a 5 gallon bucket that would supply water to the utility sink, if needed, and will be for hand washing. I have the materials for this. Just need to build it.

Install rain gutters on the storage building to divert water to the 275 gallon water tote I have in the back of the storage building.

Purchase 2 more 275 gallon water totes and place them in the back of the storage building and to be fed by the rain gutters. This water will be used to water the garden and orchard using soaker hoses or watering can. As the one I already have and the ones I plan to purchase are used, I don't know what they contained in the past so i will only use them for watering the garden and orchard.

Purchase at least one touring bike. I could sell my scooter to pay the cost for a good quality bike.

Build a 8'X4'X4' cold storage bin in the basement.

Visit yard and estate sales to buy hand tools and garden tools.

Lose 30 lbs and exercise on a regular basis.

Replace current 500 gallon LP tank with a 1000 gallon tank or add another 500 gallon tank to the one I already have. This would allow me to purchase more gas in summer when it's about a $1 a gallon cheaper then it is in later winter.

Build more selves in the basement for home canned foods.

Construct a biosand water filtration system.

Take an on line American Red Cross Adult, Child and Baby First Aid/CPR/AED course.

Purchase a quality first aid kit and adult/child CPR mask.

Purchase a quality hand crank/solar AM/FM/NOAA weather radio with 2000mAh power bank and USB cell phone charger

Purchase a single shot break action 20 gauge shotgun for home defense, hunting and varmint control.

Purchase 2 30 gal or bigger heavy duty trash cans with lids to be used as storage and in an emergency, to collect rainwater from the house roof.

Learn to make Pemmican and make it.

Become adept at using cattail roots as food.

Learn how to and become proficient in at making basic breads such as sailor biscuits, tortillas and Navajo bread.

Repair and get working the portable gas generator. This would be important to keep the fridge and freezers cold during the warmer months. Not so critical in winter.

Get back on track with taking free on line courses at Khan Academy. What I had learned from their basic geometry class came in handy when laying out the garden.

Continue working to convert backyard into a garden and orchard. Lay down sheets of cardboard between the raised rows in the garden and cover with a thick mulch of hay. I'll be getting topsoil from a neighbor to build up the berms where the fruit trees will be planted in the near future.

Give the basement a really good cleaning and keep it clean in case I need to use it as a primary living space. Acquire camping gear that I could use to make the basement a living area such as cots, folding camping chairs, folding tables and such.


The above will be paid for with the money i will be making baby sitting."

https://democraticunderground.com/11284578

[WhiskeyGrinder]

32. .

* actively divesting myself from law enforcement solutions.

* agitating my representatives about cop abolition.

* spending my personal and professional capital to support the concept.

* working in community groups to build capacity for abolitionist principles.

* making a pain in the ass out of myself among people I generally consider political allies, both online and IRL.

[Atticus]

2. The usual "they"---the Trumpies in general, the Oath Keepers and 3-Percenters and

Proud Boys and the Klan.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

4. Do you believe it's the cops that keep you safe from "them"?

If so, I have some very bad news for you about the cops.

[Atticus]

12. I will not tell you what it is like to be a person of color. Please don't tell me what it is like

to be an outspoken white liberal as l am in a DEEP red community that reliably votes over 75% in favor of WHOEVER is opposing the "socialist libtard n-word lovers". I have been shot and shot at, found anonymous threats in my mailbox and had calls for my death on a local comment board.

I know many of the local cops and not all, but nearly all, can be counted on to enforce the law even-handedly.

If they all disappeared I KNOW that the night time "visits" would no longer stop at my mailbox. So, save your "news" about cops. In my world, you don't know what you're talking about.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

18. .

I will not tell you what it is like to be a person of color.

Why do you say this?

I have been shot and shot at, found anonymous threats in my mailbox and had calls for my death on a local comment board.

So it sounds like you don't feel safe.

I know many of the local cops and not all, but nearly all, can be counted on to enforce the law even-handedly.

So it sounds like you rely on *community* -- people who are cops that you know and like -- and not The Police to keep you safe. What happens when the makeup of The Police in your community changes?

In my world, you don't know what you're talking about.

Pretty sure we live in the same world, which is one where people's needs are not met and efforts to build community are routinely undermined. The theory of abolition addresses these issues.

[Atticus]

24. I have no idea how you read my post and came up with those "interpretations". Reminds me of

how Rush used to tell people what someone else "really meant", despite what they actually said.

[Phoenix61]

3. It has to start with the training.

It should focus on teaching the skills needed to be successful as a police officer. Since almost every encounter involves deescalation that skill should be emphasized. This will require a longer training program which has the added benefit of providing the time to weed out those who are not psychologically and/or ideologically suited to a career in law enforcement. It takes years to become an electrician because people recognize that a wiring mistake can lead to loss of life. It’s time we use the same logic for law enforcement.

[Atticus]

5. Great post. I think shifting from the "warrior" concept to that of "guardian" would be very

helpful. And your suggestion of it taking longer to be "qualified" as a LEO is spot on IMHO.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

6. .

It should focus on teaching the skills needed to be successful as a police officer.

You'll actually have to push back "farther" in the training cycle than that, as cops are trained very well on how to be a "successful police officer." A "successful" one now is the one who goes home at the end of the shift. And as far as finding people suitable for a career in law enforcement, this is what law enforcement is -- a violent, racist system based on and meant to uphold white supremacy.

[Phoenix61]

9. If you think the current training produces

“successful police officers” then you’re happy with the status quo, right?

[WhiskeyGrinder]

10. No, and I hope that's not how it comes across. It's why I used quotation marks.

[Phoenix61]

11. So what's your definition of a "successful police officer"? nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

14. I don't have one. I think the whole system should be abolished.

[Phoenix61]

16. What happens when someone murders someone? nt

[Voltaire2]

19. somebody would be dead.

Which is exactly what happens today with the police. They generally do not stop crimes.

Abolishing the police means replacing the existing institutions with new ones. That would include a criminal investigation agency that would investigate crimes, identify suspects, etc. That agency would not be an occupying military force in our cities.

[TwilightZone]

22. So, you're OK with a dead or injured girl?

I find the complete lack of concern for the girl who was about to get stabbed quite disturbing, yet it's a very common theme here this morning. You argue that the police don't stop crimes, yet in this case, it's pretty obvious that they did. The only thing in question is the appropriateness of method used.

You'd rather let her get injured or killed first and deal with it after the fact?

Good luck selling that. Arguing that we shouldn't bother with crimes until after they're committed is truly, well, remarkable.

"a criminal investigation agency"

So, like police detectives. Got it.

[Voltaire2]

27. They executed a child.

If you think that was a successful intervention I just don't know what to say.

But you asked what happens if somebody murders somebody. and we don't have police. What happens is exactly what happens today: a murder is committed. What happens next is the question, and the answer is, today, in poor urban areas, not much happens next, as the police do not prioritize criminal investigations in poor urban areas.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

20. What happens now when someone murders someone?

About a third of the time, a person isn't even arrested. Less than half of all violent crime cases reported to police result in arrest, much less a conviction and sentencing.

A better place to start is, why do murders happen?

[Phoenix61]

21. Nope, one question at a time. What happens

when someone murders someone?

[tonedevil]

28. Somebody dies. /nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

30. If you're asking about murder in an abolitionist system you've got to play along in good faith.

It's not just about the absence of the cops. It's about the presence of systems that meet individuals' and the community's needs *before* crimes happens. Crime isn't random; in the vast majority of cases, it happens because people's needs aren't being met. When it comes to murder, it's a rare serial killer who didn't have an ugly childhood or untreated injury before they started their spree. When it comes to IPV resulting in murder, we often find generational trauma is the culprit. Poverty, poor mental health, deprived communities and other issues are all ways we can get *ahead* of these problems, instead of pouring money into a violent system that neither prevents murders nor rehabilitates murderers.

[Phoenix61]

31. That's not an answer to the question. If you don't have one that's ok.nt

[WhiskeyGrinder]

33. Truly, I don't know what kind of answer you're looking for. If it's one that convinces you

police abolition is the right thing to do, I'm pretty sure I can't provide that. Murders are such a small part of what cops do, and they don't do it well. As someone who also believes in prison abolition (see my sig line), I also know there would still need to be some kind of system that holds people for their own safety and the immediate safety of others. But we can establish a system of those responders and investigators without relying on the violent white supremacist system we have now. We can have a separation for people who hurt others that doesn't hurt them. What I do know is that we can't have those things under the system we have now, nor can the system be reformed into something that provides accountability, rehabilitation and justice rather than punishment and revenge.

[Phoenix61]

34. "Some kind of system" Haven't really thought through the details.

The idea that violent crime is all due to environment goes against everything we know about the human species.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

35. We actually have pretty good ideas about what causes violent crimes, and much of it is preventable.

What are some of the causes or motives for murder? A crime of passion (jealousy, heat of the moment, control), another crime gone wrong (armed robbery), a business proposition (murder for hire), desperation (trying to get out of a bad situation), and so on. Emotional murders can be mitigated with better emotional intelligence education, conflict resolution, anger control, understanding of cultural cues around gender roles. Even serial killers have their drives, which often stem from ugly childhoods or untreated illnesses/injuries, which would also be mitigated in an abolitionist model.

"Some kind of system" is deliberately vague, because different communities would come up with different models, just like we do now. Small town cops bust up teen parties made up of children of their friends and neighbors differently than inner-city cops do (and with their own exceptions as well, which we accept as part of the price for the system we have). We can have varying models without cops -- and with much more community input.

[Phoenix61]

36. Serial killers are the poster children for antisocial personality disorder.

It’s nice to think that is due to environment because that means we can control it. Much harder to accept that some people are wired differently. Genetic mutations happen all the time with some being advantageous for the species and others not. We are subject to that fact just as much as any other species.
I agree 100% that there are many things we can do to reduce criminal behavior but thinking that’s going to create a utopia denies everything we know about human nature.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

38. But there are many, many people who have those traits who don't become serial killers.

Why? In many, many cases, it's because those traits are "activated" by outside influences, which we can mitigate.

I find it fascinating that people who argue with me use the word "utopia." I'm not saying cop abolition would create a utopia. I'm saying it would eliminate a lot of the things we think we need cops for. A LOT a lot. And it would decrease a lot of the things a person could make an argument that we *do* need cops for. It's not a utopia. It's a reality we can move toward, but for fear.

[Phoenix61]

40. Based on what you've shared eliminating cops

isn’t, in and of itself, going to do anything. It’s the addition of services all of which can be done with the current system in place. If they are successful crime rates will drop.
Came across this but haven’t done a deep dive on it. Looks interesting.
https://purposebuiltcommunities.org/

[WhiskeyGrinder]

41. Eliminating cops eliminates the violence they bring.

And you're right, it creates the opportunity to fill that vacuum with the presence of things that truly help people. It frees up resources for community-building, not community policing. It forces us imagine alternatives. It gives us a model to dismantle a white supremacist institution entirely, which is no small thing in this country.

[uponit7771]

13. Disagree, it has to start with impunity. Chauvin had the right training and threw his body cam off

[Phoenix61]

15. I don't think you mean what you posted.

Maybe “ending qualified immunity”?

[Voltaire2]

17. The institution of 'police' needs to be abolished and replaced.

I assume you knew that, so your argument is disingenuous.

Reforming police institutions has been tried repeatedly and has failed every time.

[maxsolomon]

29. I have no idea what you're on about.

America isn't within 100 light years of "abolishing" cops. Anarchy isn't in the offing.

[Atticus]

44. Some on this board are calling for it. nt

[maxsolomon]

46. It is a fine goal.

Those people do not have the numbers or power to implement that policy, and they won't in our remaining lifetimes.

America is too bourgeois to even listen to what is being proposed.

[Fix The Stupid]

37. Be wary of those who keep shouting "abolish the police".

These are trolls. The game of "trolling" has evolved over the years, just like everything else.

They use to come in here and spout the right wing POV. Just blatantly, in your face, obvious what they were doing... for example you would see something like this:

An OP would get posted about the IRAQ war and how useless and unnecessary it was...

Then the trolls would chime in with their right wing POV's - "They're all terrorists, they flew planes into OUR buildings, America is # 1, etc, etc".

You could see them a mile away.

What we have now is a new kind of troll who will take the Left/moderate Left position and stretch it out to absurd, even comical lengths...

Moderate Leftist:" We need to re-allocate these funds from Police depts. across the country and give them to Social Services, community groups, etc. We need to create a more healing, helpful Police dept. at the same time we bolster the aforementioned Social Services, community groups etc."

Troll: "ACAB!!, Defund and abolish the Police, there are NEVER justified police shootings!!! garble, garble, etc, etc"

This is all done by design to hurt Democrats and the Democratic Party in future elections. It is so obvious to anyone who has been paying attention.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

42. .

[Fix The Stupid]

43. About what I expected...

So, do you believe the stance of "Defund/abolish the Police", helps or hinders the Democratic Party in future elections?

Or, let me dumb it down a bit more, maybe this is too complicated...

Do you believe a Democratic candidate will receive MORE votes if they take the "Abolish the Police" stance?

Or will they receive LESS votes if they take the "Abolish the Police" stance?

All that matters on this site is to get Democrats elected to office. PERIOD.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

45. I don't believe true police change -- something that's more than reform, which got us the murder

of George Floyd -- is a useful electoral issue. I do believe it's better to have Democrats listening to me when I'm on my bullshit than Republicans.

This site is certainly about more than getting Democrats elected. I'm interested in what they do once they get there.

[BGBD]

39. "abolish the police"

LMAO, what a terrible idea.

Let's play this out. The cops are gone. Now everything is going to be perfect? Who do they think is going to fill that power vacuum?

The well off neighborhoods are going to hire their own security forces, probably from all the cops looking for work. Then, there are people like me who live in rural areas. We're already fine because we don't count on police to respond quick enough for an emergency anyway....we have other ways to deal with something like that. It's going to be the cities and poor or minority neighborhoods where it's going to be Lord of the Flies.

Good luck.