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sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:18 PM Apr 2021

Killer cops

Per Snopes, police have shot and killed 984 people since April 2020. That is about 2.7 per day. Most of these don't make national news but many are now recorded so we can view what happened.

Three cases I have seen recently

-a boy being chased on foot for possibly shooting at cars. He tosses a gun and turns to show open hands. In less than a second he is shot once and killed.

-a female vet is entering through a window unarmed. Multiple cops are inside. Before even getting inside she is shot once and killed.

-police are called to a possible abuse/fight situation. There is a chaotic altercation. One girl with a knife tries to slash another girl then presses a third against a car and tries to stab her. She is shot four times and dies.

In none of these cases did police try to use less lethal weapons or de- escalation tactics. However in each case events were happening quickly.

Should any of these people be dead or should other attempts been made to subdue the victims?

20 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Killer cops (Original Post) sarisataka Apr 2021 OP
Female vet is insurrectionist ashli Babbitt trying to break through to reach lawmakers? soothsayer Apr 2021 #1
This Reminds Me, Sir The Magistrate Apr 2021 #2
One may indeed say that sarisataka Apr 2021 #11
People Engaged In Violent Insurrection, Sir, Are Liable To Get Shot The Magistrate Apr 2021 #16
Fair enough sarisataka Apr 2021 #17
In Both Instances, Sir, the Officer Made A Snap Judgement The Magistrate Apr 2021 #18
You may be surprised sarisataka Apr 2021 #20
You forgot to mention that window the "unarmed female vet" tried to enter was the broken window StarfishSaver Apr 2021 #3
See posts 7 and 9 nt sarisataka Apr 2021 #12
Are you really including Babbit the insurrectionist in your list? brush Apr 2021 #4
Devil's advocate sarisataka Apr 2021 #7
My post explains it clearly. And you say you have no issue with the action taken. brush Apr 2021 #8
Why include her- sarisataka Apr 2021 #9
Would love to see things like this used -- Hoyt Apr 2021 #5
I do not disagree nt sarisataka Apr 2021 #13
Not all cases of people being shot by cops Haggard Celine Apr 2021 #6
Really bad example bringing up Ashlii Barrett AZProgressive Apr 2021 #10
As a vet sarisataka Apr 2021 #14
Your description doesn't mention she was an insurrectionist AZProgressive Apr 2021 #15
Militarization. moondust Apr 2021 #19

soothsayer

(38,601 posts)
1. Female vet is insurrectionist ashli Babbitt trying to break through to reach lawmakers?
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:23 PM
Apr 2021

To be fair, they shot her in the shoulder. Bullets do unpredictable things I guess.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
2. This Reminds Me, Sir
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:27 PM
Apr 2021

Of that 'one of these things is not like the others, one of these just doesn't belong' ditty....

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
11. One may indeed say that
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:07 PM
Apr 2021

But as a wordsmith can you articulate why other methods should/ should not have been used

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
16. People Engaged In Violent Insurrection, Sir, Are Liable To Get Shot
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:14 PM
Apr 2021

There should have been a good deal more gunfire used on that insurrectionist crowd.

In fact, that response ought to have started in Michigan last year, when the dress rehearsals for caliing up the Trump mob commenced.

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
17. Fair enough
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:25 PM
Apr 2021

Can you explain the other two cases

-should an officer chasing someone down an alley wait for the shot to be fired to see if the suspect is armed and hope he is alive to respond?

-an office is observing a potentially lethal assault on a person who was a bystander seconds before. Should he risk that person's life to attempt a less lethal action?

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
18. In Both Instances, Sir, the Officer Made A Snap Judgement
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:35 PM
Apr 2021

In the first, he reacted to the speed with which the person turned, without noting the person's hands were empty. He reacted to what he feared, rather than what was there to be seen.

In the second, the officer rolled up to an ongoing fight, and seems to have decided the person with the upper hand at the moment was the problem. I do not know that, and neither did he. The person he shot was the person who called the police for help against a group she felt threatened by.

Two further points.

You ask whether an officer should wait to see if there is a gun in someone's hand before firing. Yes. The chance of being killed or injured is one of the things police work entails. People who will not or cannot face that should find other employment.

Taking a holistic point of view, the rights and wrongs of particular instances are of little importance, weighed against the sheer volume of such incidents. Police here shoot citizens at twenty times the rate police in Germany do. That is a problem, and it needs to be fixed. Now.

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
20. You may be surprised
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 05:11 PM
Apr 2021

That we are more in agreement than not in these cases.

While the system and the individual are intertwined it is still two separate issues. It is entirely possible for a good cop in a good department to commit a bad act and a bad cop in a bad department may do something just. Because of that we need to judge an incident on its own merits.

Good and bad trends will show up in the macro. Is it bad that 3 whites are being shot and killed every 2 days- yes. Is it worse that a black person is being killed everyday by cops- yes, because that is three times what is expected by population. We have found a systemic issue.

We can say people are killed often by cops and examine by reviewing the individual incidents. Determine are cops trigger happy or are people extremely violent with cops or both. It may be systemic or not..

However it is far more likely the subject will be killed if they are black. This is a systemic issue and the larger the issue, the greater chance an individual is going to act incorrectly, with fatal results. To truly correct the issue requires acting from the bottom up, scrutinize the individual actions, as well as from the top down, review training, leadership and the culture that is promoted.


Thank you for taking the time to answer what was intended to be a controversial question.

 

StarfishSaver

(18,486 posts)
3. You forgot to mention that window the "unarmed female vet" tried to enter was the broken window
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:30 PM
Apr 2021

that was the last thing separating her and her fellow marauding insurgents from attacking Members of Congress on the other side, she was warned repeatedly to stop before the shot was fired, she was part of a crowd of people who had broken into the Capitol, beat and badgered police officers, and had attacked several police officers who were desperately trying to keep her and her fellow insurgents from breaking through a door without any use of lethal force.

Why would you include her in this list of police killings?

brush

(53,475 posts)
4. Are you really including Babbit the insurrectionist in your list?
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:30 PM
Apr 2021

"-a female vet is entering through a window unarmed. Multiple cops are inside. Before even getting inside she is shot once and killed."

You do know that she was trying to climb through a window beside the door of Speaker Pelosi's lobby to let in the mob of Capitol invaders who were looking for the Speaker, right?

Unfortunately Babbit got caught up in the mob frenzy, made a bad decision and paid for it.

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
7. Devil's advocate
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:43 PM
Apr 2021

Although I have no issue with the action taken, I am curious if anyone can articulate why different courses of action are demanded in some cases but not others.

Or will the question be avoided as too uncomfortable.

brush

(53,475 posts)
8. My post explains it clearly. And you say you have no issue with the action taken.
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:50 PM
Apr 2021

So why include her on the list? Do you even know yourself?

sarisataka

(18,220 posts)
9. Why include her-
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:00 PM
Apr 2021

Because she was a human being. She died doing something illegal.

I know myself very well. Having to care and fairly treat people you were just trying to kill, as week they were trying to kill you, allows one to peer into one's soul. You don't always like what you find there and may decide to change it.

If I am going to demand equality and fairness for my friends I must do the same I view as opponents.

FWIW- I am not a pacifist, I just take human life very seriously. I believe two of the cases were unfortunate but neccessary.
ETA- and I can explain why I believe they were necessary. It is the same reason for both.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
5. Would love to see things like this used --
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:34 PM
Apr 2021
Sound Cannon




Bolowrap



blob:https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/beb910b2-0e8e-4236-a73c-d4e46cf227ed



But, sometimes, gunz are necessary, especially when dealing with folks like this --

?crop=1290%2C1290%2C0%2C158&resize=1290%2C1290&order=crop%2Cresize

Haggard Celine

(16,820 posts)
6. Not all cases of people being shot by cops
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 01:42 PM
Apr 2021

are unjustified. Sometimes the police are called and show up at times when quick action is called for and they have very little time to decide how to end the conflict. It's unfortunate to see people getting killed by anyone, much less police, but it's the police's job to keep people safe, including themselves. The cases you mention seem like justified uses of force to me, but we'll see what the investigations say. Most police killings are not murders like George Floyd's death, and not all are worth a protest.

AZProgressive

(29,322 posts)
10. Really bad example bringing up Ashlii Barrett
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:06 PM
Apr 2021

How deep into the Capitol did she get before she was shot? 140 police officers were injured during that event.

I often compare the police response on January 6th to Trump's Bible Photo-op.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_photo_op_at_St._John%27s_Church

I'm a veteran so not impressed with the way you frame her as an "unarmed vet".

AZProgressive

(29,322 posts)
15. Your description doesn't mention she was an insurrectionist
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 02:12 PM
Apr 2021

And I have no idea what she had in her backpack but the police response was very light on January 6th compared to BLM protests where police act like counter-protestors.

moondust

(19,917 posts)
19. Militarization.
Wed Apr 21, 2021, 03:08 PM
Apr 2021


Even controlling for other possible factors in police violence (such as household income, overall and black population, violent-crime levels and drug use), more-militarized law enforcement agencies were associated with more civilians killed each year by police.

Does military equipment lead police officers to be more violent? We did the research.
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