HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » How about this as a way t...

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 10:28 AM

How about this as a way to Biden's goal of reducing fossil fuel use?

Here’s my plan to move the country off fossil fuels and towards a sustainable carbon neutral future.

Ration gasoline.

Very simply: require a ration card for every gallon of gas sold across the country. Ration cards would be distributed to every man, women and child on a monthly basis. The total number of gallons would start off equal to the current use and would be slowly decreased until the number in 2030 (Biden’s target date) would be ˝ the current use. The cards would have an expiration date three months after issuance. (This would prevent hoarding and speculation knowing the future will bring higher prices as the 2030 dates grows closer very day). Those people not using their ration could sell their cards at a rate determined by the market. These cards would become a currency in themselves and have to be secured and printed in a way similar to cash today. I imagine a credit system being established similar to the current credit/debit card system now used for money, established by banks, just as we have now in order to ease transactions involving the ration cards.

FAQ:

I need more gas to get to work than my neighbor who sits at home all day. How is that fair?

If you are using more fossil fuels, for whatever reason, you will be penalized. You will find (especially at first) ration cards readily available. But as time goes by it will become apparent that you will need to make some changes. The simple solution will be to get an electric car. Alternatively, you could find ways to live closer to work, share transportation or get a more fuel efficient car.

Kids don’t need gas, why are they getting the same ration as everyone else.

Kids need the climate to cool down just as much as everyone else. In fact, it could be argued they will be required to make many more sacrifices than adults during their life time. They can use their cards to help their parents have enough gas to get them around or sell them on the market to save for a future with many uncertainties.

But what about FREEDOM? I have lots of money and can afford my empty pickup truck that gets almost 15 miles per gallon. This is America, I should be free to drive whatever I want wherever I want. Why not?

By now you should realize that pumping carbon into the air is affecting everyone. Using the shared roadway system to do so will require you to join the rest of us in moving towards a future that is sustainable. While the current system based on the Dollar and the Holy Market gets you what you want because you have the money to afford it, everyone is affected by the climate changes to come. We need a system that based equally on simply one parameter: Life. This method of sharing equally in reducing the use of fossil fuels will get us to the target in the most equitable way.

How will the ration cards be distributed?

Each American with a Social Security Card will be entitled to a gas ration card account. All others in need of gas will need to go to the “Market” (Black or otherwise) to get the gas they need. Those wanting to avoid all the hassle will simply move to an electric car and sell their ration on the market or simply refuse to use their ration which will expire after 3 months.

What about the cost of gas? Won’t it be affected by this system?

Gas prices will, as now, be determined by market forces. As people use less gas, just as when people move to electric cars, supply will exceed demand and the cost of gas will go down. (assuming no manipulation). There would be no other long range expected impact.

How is this different from the Carbon Trading ideas already discussed?

Although very similar in goal, the rationing of gasoline will be much more transparent and controllable by those actually using the
fossil fuels. By hiding the production of carbon in the atmosphere, the average American has no idea what he is responsible for causing. Faced with the decision to spend their ration cards on a daily basis, the rational actor will move away from polluting towards a more economical action. Carbon trading will still have its place in the fight to save the climate.



Just remember what people were required to do during WWII in the name of FREEDOM!

31 replies, 936 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 31 replies Author Time Post
Reply How about this as a way to Biden's goal of reducing fossil fuel use? (Original post)
rgbecker Apr 2021 OP
jimfields33 Apr 2021 #1
SCantiGOP Apr 2021 #2
rgbecker Apr 2021 #3
SCantiGOP Apr 2021 #6
rgbecker Apr 2021 #7
SCantiGOP Apr 2021 #10
Budi Apr 2021 #4
rgbecker Apr 2021 #5
Demsrule86 Apr 2021 #13
jimfields33 Apr 2021 #14
MiHale Apr 2021 #8
rgbecker Apr 2021 #18
Demsrule86 Apr 2021 #19
rgbecker Apr 2021 #21
Demsrule86 Apr 2021 #22
rgbecker Apr 2021 #24
jmowreader Apr 2021 #20
MiHale Apr 2021 #27
TraceNC Apr 2021 #9
SCantiGOP Apr 2021 #11
rgbecker Apr 2021 #16
rgbecker Apr 2021 #17
Demsrule86 Apr 2021 #12
Calculating Apr 2021 #15
NickB79 Apr 2021 #23
rgbecker Apr 2021 #25
NickB79 Apr 2021 #26
rgbecker Apr 2021 #28
Happy Hoosier Apr 2021 #29
BGBD Apr 2021 #30
marie999 Apr 2021 #31

Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 10:32 AM

1. Wow. 2022 would be a bloodbath

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 10:53 AM

2. A good way to guarantee

The collapse and demise of the Democratic Party.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 10:54 AM

3. Another FAQ: How many gallons/mo. would each American get to start?

About 35 Gallons/Mo. How does this compare to your current use? Remember, this ration would go to each man, women and child with a Social Security card.

[link:https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=How+many+gallons+of+gas+are+used+in+the+US+per+month%2F|



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:20 AM

6. So, you treat the NYC resident

who doesn’t own a car because they live near a subway station, like the rural person who has to drive 40 miles a day round trip to get to work?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:25 AM

7. Does the NYC resident suffer from climate change any less than the rural guy?

We're talking carbon in the atmosphere here. Biden says cut fossil fuel to 1/2 2005 levels. There is going to be some changes for that to happen. Should the impact be felt only based on $ resources of each individual or on each person equally?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:35 AM

10. No, the NYC resident makes out great

It's the rural resident that can't afford to drive to work.

It's an idea that would cause an economic collapse and end the career of any party or politician who supported it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:01 AM

4. Is thereva link ir source for the rationing method you present?

Just curious who else would be on board with this method of curbing fuel consumption?

Any Organizations, groups, or media sources currently offering this thought?

Thanks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Budi (Reply #4)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:18 AM

5. This is my idea given the seeming impossible goal set on Thursday by Biden.

The talk of moving to Electric cars quickly enough to get to carbon emissions equal to 1/2 2005 levels is loose without a serious incentive. We need to talk about developing such if there is to be any credibility to Biden's presidency. The market economy alone will not move people out of their gas hogs. Even a Toyota Prius vs. a Corolla doesn't make sense money wise.

I'm sure, given the wonderful response here on DU, many media sources will pick up my idea and get it some good coverage. In fact, the idea probably already has been floated, but I've never seen it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:54 AM

13. God I hope not...we don't want our party linked to such an idea...we would lose, lose and lose...

it would undoubtedly be the end of the Democratic Party.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Reply #5)


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:29 AM

8. How would owner/operator service businesses work...

I used to own a carpet & upholstery cleaning business. The cleaning unit was truck-mounted, basically saying my truck was the cleaning machine. I would regularly put on 3 to 4 hundred miles per week. Of course that cost would be passed on to my clients how would the business divvy up those costs? The less experienced operators would probably get more business due to cheaper rates; they would have less jobs not as much travel. Quality would suffer.

Plus there are way too many of us that just couldn’t afford an electric vehicle, they are expensive.
Those people that depend on buying used vehicles would be at a decided disadvantage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MiHale (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 12:26 PM

18. Those who want to continue using fossil fuels will need to find work arounds.

Maybe your rates which now cover your fuel costs will need to reflect the use. One way would be to charge each customer gallons of rations based on how much it takes to get the cleaning done. This transparent way that shows how much fossil fuel is being used to get that service will then be reflected in their decision making concerning just how much cleaning they want. In the current system, because they haven't a clue about how much fossil fuel burning they are responsible for, and they have enough money to pay you, they are happy to go along with the fossil fuel burning and you are happy to oblige because you need the money.

Those that switch to electric vehicles and electric powered cleaning equipment will be favored as the price they can charge will be less as they won't need to supplement their gasoline ration.

I ask: How else are people going to be moved to less use of fossil fuels? Increase tax on gas? That would impact the poor more than the rich who can simply buy fewer yachts and continue burning higher proportions of fossil fuels.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 12:34 PM

19. Workarounds would include throwing the Democrats out and voting the GOP back in for

Last edited Sun Apr 25, 2021, 01:09 PM - Edit history (1)

a decade or more- that would be the workaround most voters would choose...a rationing plan would be a very bad idea.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 01:02 PM

21. I'm surprised you would want the Democrats out.

Are you thinking that failing to meet Biden's goals on fossil fuel use is a good strategy going into the 2020's? Will the Green-New-Deal be the winning idea? Maybe ignoring the climate issue is best for election victory going forward and the GOP has the future sewed up.

What's your idea and how is it better? We could blame China and India. This out and out lying is working for 40% of the electorate right now.

On that issue look at these numbers: [link:https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=carbon+emmissions+per+capita+by+country.|

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 01:07 PM

22. Nice try. clearly my post indicates I want Democrats to win always...and spare me the

the bogus poll which does not discuss a rationing plan. I would point out to you that while people want gun laws...it is not yet a voting issue. I promise you any attempt to ration gas would cause economic chaos and would mean our party would be destroyed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #22)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 01:11 PM

24. Bogus Poll?

What's your climate plan? Continue as we are and burn the planet up? Certainly as a Democrat you would want Biden to do well. He has promised a cut in fossil fuel use to 1/2 2005 levels. It will take more than closing every last coal powered power plant.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to MiHale (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 12:57 PM

20. Didn't your machine also run on gas?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to jmowreader (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 02:49 PM

27. No...I had a Bane-Clene electric truck mount.

But a lot run on propane or gas

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:29 AM

9. How would you ration air travel?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TraceNC (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:36 AM

11. and farming

which produces more emissions than air and rail travel combined.
Not to mention electric energy production, that produces more emissions than automobiles do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SCantiGOP (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 12:09 PM

16. Not according to the EPA:

[link:https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions|

The primary sources of greenhouse gas emissions in the United States are:

Transportation (29 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – The transportation sector generates the largest share of greenhouse gas emissions. Greenhouse gas emissions from transportation primarily come from burning fossil fuel for our cars, trucks, ships, trains, and planes. Over 90 percent of the fuel used for transportation is petroleum based, which includes primarily gasoline and diesel.2
Electricity production (25 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – Electricity production generates the second largest share of greenhouse gas emissions. Approximately 62 percent of our electricity comes from burning fossil fuels, mostly coal and natural gas.3
Industry (23 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – Greenhouse gas emissions from industry primarily come from burning fossil fuels for energy, as well as greenhouse gas emissions from certain chemical reactions necessary to produce goods from raw materials.
Commercial and Residential (13 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – Greenhouse gas emissions from businesses and homes arise primarily from fossil fuels burned for heat, the use of certain products that contain greenhouse gases, and the handling of waste.
Agriculture (10 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – Greenhouse gas emissions from agriculture come from livestock such as cows, agricultural soils, and rice production.
Land Use and Forestry (12 percent of 2019 greenhouse gas emissions) – Land areas can act as a sink (absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere) or a source of greenhouse gas emissions. In the United States, since 1990, managed forests and other lands are a net sink, i.e., they have absorbed more CO2 from the atmosphere than they emit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TraceNC (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 12:14 PM

17. I'm pretty much concentrating on Gasoline, not Diesel or jet fuel.

But, that said, rationing those fuels could also be implemented. Using the same per person method, these could also be traded in a market, allowing trucking, rail and air fossil fuel burners to accumulate rations in order to continue with their services.

Remember we are talking about cutting fossil fuel emissions by big percentages and people are going to be effected. The question is how could it be done in a fair and equitable way.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 11:51 AM

12. No, 2022 and 2024 would be a blood bath and the GOP would implement awful policy across the board.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 12:06 PM

15. Nope

Just no, this plan would guarantee a republican takeover in 2022/2024

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 01:09 PM

23. Threads like this illustrate the incredible bind we're in

To prevent catastrophic climate change, we'll have to implement draconian social measures almost everyone is guaranteed to hate.

But, in a democracy, people will quickly turn against any politicians that even suggest such a thing.

So we're going to continue nibbling around the edges at the politically acceptable low-hanging fruit of carbon emissions until we pass the point of no return, the world burns and hundreds of millions die.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NickB79 (Reply #23)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 01:17 PM

25. Not trying to bring everyone down, just suggesting something that has worked in the past.

Many won't remember the one day of the week, usually Sunday, when we had meat for dinner. As meat and gas were rationed during WWII. Complaints? Sure, and cursing of Roosevelt, at least in my GOP household....but it did allow the gas to go towards bombing the shit out of both Germany and Japan.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Reply #25)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 01:43 PM

26. I understand you have good intentions

The issue is that Nazis and Japanese were visible, material threats. We saw the damage they were doing in real time. We reacted to an enemy we could see, quantify, and relate to previous enemies.

Climate change is insidious and new. Humanity has never confronted such a dangerous, vast threat.. If you don't trust the science, and wait until you're seeing cities flood and forests burning, it may be too late to stop it. And most humans are really bad at long term thinking like that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 06:28 PM

28. Another FAQ: Only 7% of vehicles on the road in 2030 will be electric....

How would rationing gas help get America off fossil fuels?

Many more vehicles could be electric by 2030 if the demand were higher. The cost of gas will drop as people move to electric vehicles and demand drops for gas....this in turn will reduce demand for electric cars unless there is something that requires reduction in gas usage other than Market forces. By rationing gas to a level that achieves the fossil fuel usage level goal announced by Biden, the market will move to electric vehicles to overcome the artificial increase in the gas caused by rationing. This method will be far cheaper than using tax funded subsidies to artificially stimulate demand for electric cars as is going on now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 06:32 PM

29. Much simpler solution:

Fund research in battery tech.

Fund electric vehicle charging infrastructure.

Offer generous tax credits for using green alternatives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 06:34 PM

30. This sounds like

the kind of policy that MTG would tweet that we are pushing.

This is a terrible idea. We can't just force people off of gasoline since there isn't even an infrastructure across the country for anything outside of a fossil fuel based transportation sector.

It's a bad policy, not to mention awful politics. We'd be swept out of office. Republicans would win districts that they wouldn't have dreamed of.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to rgbecker (Original post)

Sun Apr 25, 2021, 07:08 PM

31. Do you think that the majority or even a large minority of people

care about climate change. I don't mean a poll asking people if they are, ask them if they are willing to give up their gas-powered car and buy a more expensive electric car. I personally have a very low opinion of humanity. I doubt that any meaningful progress will be made to save us from a horrendous future.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread