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Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:22 AM

Val Demings: officer who shot Ma'Khia Bryant 'responded as he was trained'

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/25/val-demings-makhia-bryant-killing


Val Demings, a Democratic congresswoman and former police chief, said on Sunday the officer who fatally shot teenager Ma’Khia Bryant in Ohio this week “responded as he was trained to do”.

On CBS, the host John Dickerson asked Demings about Reardon’s conduct, which would still be protected under a police reform bill, the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, which has passed the US House.


“Everybody has the benefit of slowing the video down and seizing the perfect moment,” Demings said. “The officer on the street does not have that ability. He or she has to make those split-second decisions and they’re tough.


“But the limited information that I know in viewing the video, it appears that the officer responded as he was trained to do with the main thought of preventing a tragedy and a loss of life of the person who was about to be assaulted.”


It is important to remember that police reform will not prevent good policing decisions, but instead it will prevent the abuses. There are people out there looking to commit harm to others. We do need a civil authority to deal with such issues as they arise.

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Reply Val Demings: officer who shot Ma'Khia Bryant 'responded as he was trained' (Original post)
cinematicdiversions Apr 2021 OP
Hoyt Apr 2021 #1
brush Apr 2021 #17
Jose Garcia Apr 2021 #21
Watchfoxheadexplodes Apr 2021 #2
bigtree Apr 2021 #3
karynnj Apr 2021 #9
bigtree Apr 2021 #14
Straw Man Apr 2021 #25
Arazi Apr 2021 #26
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #31
Straw Man Apr 2021 #39
bigtree Apr 2021 #27
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #32
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #43
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #30
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #29
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #4
jonstl08 Apr 2021 #5
wnylib Apr 2021 #6
yagotme Apr 2021 #46
wnylib Apr 2021 #51
yagotme Apr 2021 #53
StarfishSaver Apr 2021 #7
Tom Rinaldo Apr 2021 #18
StarfishSaver Apr 2021 #20
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #23
GulfCoast66 Apr 2021 #28
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #36
yagotme Apr 2021 #47
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #50
yagotme Apr 2021 #52
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #34
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #35
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #40
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #42
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #45
TexasBushwhacker Apr 2021 #41
ProfessorGAC Apr 2021 #19
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #24
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #37
uponit7771 Apr 2021 #22
DontBelieveEastisEas Apr 2021 #33
oasis Apr 2021 #8
Beakybird Apr 2021 #10
canetoad Apr 2021 #38
Arazi Apr 2021 #11
ripcord Apr 2021 #12
bullwinkle428 Apr 2021 #13
Treefrog Apr 2021 #15
LAS14 Apr 2021 #16
WhiskeyGrinder Apr 2021 #44
Vinca Apr 2021 #48
BannonsLiver Apr 2021 #49

Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:27 AM

1. She has guts to make that statement.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 12:00 PM

17. This is not the case to die on. Just as in the Chauvin case, the video speaks for itself.

It's horrible that the teen was killed. It's also unfortunate that she got herself involved in such a situation where she tried to stab someone RIGHT IN FRONT OF A COP.

She was failed by those who raised her. We've got to teach our kids to be smarter than that for God's sake.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #1)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 03:53 PM

21. How so? Most of the people who have seen the video are expressing similar sentiments.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:30 AM

2. Guts and correct

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:32 AM

3. that's a pretty broad assumption for someone with 'limited information'

...seems an inappropriately premature defense of the cop's actions.

And how is it not a 'political issue' if the training and policy led to this outcome?

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Response to bigtree (Reply #3)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:10 AM

9. She qualified it twice

1. She said it was based on limited information
2. She said it seemed ...

Both allow for change if new information or another view changed the after the fact determination of what happened. I think the point she is intending to make is that even with the George Floyd reform bill there will be times when a police officer will shoot someone.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #9)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:42 AM

14. should be impetus to look closer at rules of engagement

...not codifying some middle ground where police feel comfortable shooting 16 year-olds.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #14)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 06:55 PM

25. Rules of engagement, yes.

...not codifying some middle ground where police feel comfortable shooting 16 year-olds.

But her age has nothing to do with the cop's decision. Nothing whatsoever. Was he supposed to ID her before pulling the trigger?

It's not like she was 6 and incapable of doing real harm.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 07:17 PM

26. What's the age cut-off then? 12 yrs old like Tamir Rice? 13 yrs like Tyre King?

They were playing with toys and were shot by police within a couple seconds of the cops arrival. Were they "old enough" and "capable" of "doing real harm" such that their slaughter is justifiable?

The fact remains that cops instantly assume black/brown people are a threat and resort to the most lethal method when confronted with a situation and age has nothing to do with it.

So fucking sick of it

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Response to Arazi (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:16 AM

31. No Cut-Off



Even if she were 6, if she moved that fast with her back to the policeman during the time he had the best view, the policeman has to make decisions thinking of the person as an adult. Perhaps a minor adult, but still an adult.

If you are 10 but you are huge and the lighting bad, the policeman might think you are a young adult.


For that matter, at what point do you allow a person to kill some innocent person, because of how young they are?

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Response to Arazi (Reply #26)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 01:48 AM

39. Playing with toys?

They were playing with toys and were shot by police within a couple seconds of the cops arrival. Were they "old enough" and "capable" of "doing real harm" such that their slaughter is justifiable?

Ma'Khia Bryant was not playing with a toy. She was using a deadly weapon to assault someone. Please tell me that you can recognize the difference between this case and the ones you referenced.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:38 PM

27. someone prone to making excuses like that shouldn't be a policeman

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Response to bigtree (Reply #27)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:22 AM

32. Facts and Reasons can be used as an Excuse.


I guess you mean this excuse --> Was he supposed to ID her before pulling the trigger?

"excuses like that". That is the kind of logic that I want in a policeman. So he should be a policeman.


Remember that he was not looking directly at her face ever.
If a bulletin had been put out on her, wouldn't it describe her as a young adult female?


There is an excuse for everything I do. I call them reasons.

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #25)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 09:20 AM

43. Sad, but likely true

I think I was wrong. Maybe not just sociopaths. (I had said unless they are sociopaths they would not feel comfortable shooting a person.) Perhaps, also, racist that are so extreme that they don't consider the other race deserving of full humanity.

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Response to bigtree (Reply #14)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:09 AM

30. Not comfortable

By the way, a 21 year old, or a 28 year old is nearly as tragic.

I don't think police are comfortable shooting anyone. Just like a regular person is not. They may feel justified. And I am not including sociopaths in this general statement.

And finding out the age afterward would hurt emotionally, but the justification would likely remain the same, although I'm sure they would run it through their minds a more critically.


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Response to bigtree (Reply #3)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:04 AM

29. If only a few people see a left right point


Question was how is it not a 'political issue' if the training and policy led to this outcome?

If we watch the actions of the policeman, and think he acted just like we would have hoped, we have no political issue.
I believe it is close enough that there is no political issue.

I wish the following was a reform issue.

If he would have arrived with lights and sirens, (not sure if he did but I think not) Maybe the aggressor would have been moved to restrain herself.
And if he would have said loudly, "This is the police department. Everybody stay calm." it would have helped.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:36 AM

4. I agree, he was trained to shoot when he saw justified to do so.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:39 AM

5. she is correct

In this instant I believe the police acted accordingly because the person was attacking somebody with a knife. At that instant he did not know who she was or why it was happening but he was trying to save a life. We have the luxury of knowing information after the fact but the policemen in this instant did not.

PS. Whether he could have injure her instead of fatally shooting her is open to debate though.

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Response to jonstl08 (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 10:57 AM

6. Your last sentence - That's the problem, isn't it?

Training appears to be to react quickly with lethal force to threats and in this case there was a real threat from one person to another. In the future, training for calls to an ongoing fight might focus more on distancing all parties immediately to de-escalate the physical action in order to sort what is going on. It would probably require more than two cops to .respond.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #6)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 11:21 AM

46. Problem is,

it wasn't an "ongoing fight". According to the video I have seen, it was an assault. Person "A" has a knife, ready to stab person "B", who is in a defensive position, pinned against a car, severely limiting her escape route. Pretty sure any investigator will determine the same thing.

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Response to yagotme (Reply #46)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 01:35 PM

51. I saw the same video. She was not assaulting the girl

by the car when the police arrived. That happened soon after the cops got there. The police did arrive in the midst of ongoing hostilities. I am not faulting he cop. I am only saying that training to separate all parties immediately on arrival might help to prevent assaults in police presence. Instead of trying to figure out what is going on when they get there, they could arrive with the assumption that everyone is in danger and they all need to be physically distanced immediately.

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Response to wnylib (Reply #51)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:52 PM

53. From the moment the first officer arrived, to the shooting,

was less than 15 seconds. How do you propose, exactly, that the 1 cop was to separate all parties, esp. when the aggressor is so fired up, she commits 1 assault right in front of him, and continues on to do another. Doesn't "Shh, the teacher's looking." come into play at all here? I believe Ms. Bryant was in the zone, seeing red, and the only thing that was going to stop her, IN TIME, was with what happened. IN TIME, are the key words.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:01 AM

7. He likely DID do what he was trained to do

 

He was trained to respond as he did to what he saw as an imminent threat.

That's not the problem. The problem is that too many police officers perceive black people as bigger threats, so when they have to make that split second decision of whether to use lethal force (or in some cases, any force at all), it's based on that perception - a perception they often don't apply to white people in the same situations.

A few hours of training at the Academy won't fix that.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 02:18 PM

18. Your point is critical and I believe 100% true

Where we may disagree in this instance is that I believe in this case, by any standard, there was a more objective "imminent threat" than exists for the vast majority of police actions involving use of force. Someone in the kinetic act of lunging with a knife can not be deescalated. I do, in this case, belief that a decent police officer of any race would likely have acted similarly against an aggressor of any race in that split second.

Having said that up front I want to support and underscore the importance of your core observation. The hard core racist "bad apple" worst of the worst cops will use force simply because they can and want to, and then retroactively (falsely) claim that they thought there was some "imminent threat" that justified their actions. Far more frequently, I think, are cases where white cops project their fears and prejudices onto black males, building them up to menacing proportions in their mind and then acting upon their projected fear as though it were objective reality. In other words, they may actually emotionally experience an "imminent threat" that in fact is neither imminent nor a threat. And you are right, "a few hours of training at the Academy won't fix that."

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 02:53 PM

20. We are in total agreement

 

Thanks you for explaining it so eloquently.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #18)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 06:47 PM

23. Yes a person in the act can be stopped, tasers work and are less lethal than a gun

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #23)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:26 PM

28. Yeah, but tasers are very inaccurate to aim.

And don’t work well at the distance the cop was from the girl with the knife was from him. Who the cop had no idea was 16.

The girl that was about to ram-jam a 6-8 inch knife into an unarmed black young lady.

Val is correct. She know from actual experience. Not internet speculation.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #28)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:46 AM

36. He didn't pull the gun because the lady was about to get stabbed


The policeman didn't know what the distance would be when he had already made the mental and beginning physical decisions of which weapon he was about to use in case of an emergency.

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #36)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 11:28 AM

47. He pulled the gun after the first female was knocked to the ground,

in the body cam video, this is when the video is quickly turned to the right, and returns to the front. You can see his firearm come in to the picture at this time. The video moving sharply to the right, was him turning his torso to draw his weapon. His eyes were still most likely locked onto the scene. At the time he drew, the girl that was shot was moving away from him, toward the other girl. He had just observed her knock down one girl onto the ground while holding the knife, and proceeding to the second one, in a highly energized state. A split second decision was made to draw the pistol, as a deadly weapon was present on the scene, and appeared to be made use of. Lethal weapon=lethal weapon. I'm glad I don't have to make decisions like that, in that time frame.

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Response to yagotme (Reply #47)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:49 PM

50. The officer actually drew his gun because of the attack of the girl on the ground

You have a good eye. The video taken from the neighbor's house shows a lot of things well.

And remember, from the outset, he had his hand poised by the gun.
That was his planned go to move in case of emergency at that moment.

As they rushed forward, and the first person lands on her back, he takes a couple of steps toward them and his hand actually leaves the gun for a moment, but then as the attacker goes down low to attack the head of the person that is on their back, he makes the decision to draw the weapon.

The weapon gets drawn at almost the exact same moment that the attackers momentum moves away from him because the person on the ground begins to sit up and the attacker follows the movement of that girl, which just happens to be toward the woman in Pink.

However, the movement is not meant to attack the girl in pink just yet. She is still attacking the person on the ground. That person is sitting up to try to get away.

The girl in Pink sees this happening and actually steps forward as if to help. But never gets close enough to help or do anything other than get closer while holding the dog.

Now, as momentum carries the attacker toward the girl in pink, it seems the attacker recognizes this girl in pink as someone that she would also like to attack. And so the attacker uses her momentum to focus on this new target. Almost a target of opportunity because suddenly they are close together.

So the attacker lets her focus of attack leave the victim that just sat up from the ground, and used her momentum to focus now on the girl in pink.

The officer actually drew his gun because of the attack of the girl on the ground.


EDIT : Here is a link to the video

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #50)

Wed Apr 28, 2021, 01:47 PM

52. Some is eye, some is training.

6 1/2 years USMC, 24 yrs Dept of Corr. When in a "hot" environment, like that scene, you want to have your hand near your weapon, and draw it while turning your strong side away from suspect, as this keeps their hand further away from your weapon, thus the quick "turn" in the video. He was responding to a call, with reported persons with deadly weapons (knives), and keeping his hand near his primary weapon, instead of taser, would be the best choice, as a taser might not have the desired effect if an actual assault is taking place. Irregardless of some thoughts in this thread, I think he showed a LOT of restraint, as if he was truly a horrible, racist person, with a badge and a gun, he COULD have started firing within a few seconds of arriving, shooting Ms. Bryant , and the male individual that kicked the fallen girl, right then and there. No, he waited until he saw 1 assault, and the beginning of another, where the victim was in immediate danger of being stabbed, that he fired. Could have also "accidently" shot pink suit girl, but he didn't.

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:40 AM

34. No choice at the last moment


The policeman exited his car with his hand on his real gun, worried about a threat might be imminent?
I suppose he worried someone from far away, or close by, might pull a gun and start shooting at him. OR maybe that someone would attack him with a knife.

As the two humans suddenly moved toward the policeman, he instinctively pulled the weapon that he already had his hand on. His hand was on it for the reason that there might be a sudden threat. And here it was in his mind. It happened so fast, the rush of bodies, that I'm sure it scared and startled him.

So, there was never a choice of Taser or Gun once he left his vehicle.

If the choice was able to be made at that last moment, even though it wasn't, would it be best to use a taser? I think not, but that would be the debate, even the it wouldn't apply to this scenario.

In this case, the question is, I believe, should an officer approach a scene like this with his hand on the taser?

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #23)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:43 AM

35. Not as reliably.


Yes a person in the act can be stopped by a taser. They can be stopped by throwing a knife.
I'm pretty sure it is not as reliable. Maybe it is within a % or 2, I do not know. I'll bet the experts have a strong opinion on this.

Why fire more than one real bullet? Isn't that because 1 shot from a real gun is not "reliable" enough?

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 07:36 AM

40. The fact that he had to put 4 bullets in the 15 yr old girl lets me know bullets aren't 100% either

... and if their was a choice for a knife a taser would work.

There's new information someone upthread said is that the leo had his hand on his gun already

If he was told there were guns in the altercation then I'll give it to him he had no choice because that is the weapon he was prepared to use.

If the LEO was told something like this was regular domestic dispute then fuck him, its what I thought; he see black people and "justified" is all he needs to go from 0 to 13 on a 10 scale in -3 seconds

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Response to uponit7771 (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 09:17 AM

42. 911 Call

When I read some of what was reported in the 911 Call, it sounded like a scene of multiple people trying to stab multiple other people.

So, if the officer got that story, he would be thinking that this was likely the scene of murder or attempted murder by multiple people. A truly lawless situation that is nearly as violent as they come.

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #42)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 09:50 AM

45. +1, that changes my opinion of the scene if I could know what the officer was told. He grabbed his..

... gun first

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Response to DontBelieveEastisEas (Reply #35)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 08:59 AM

41. Yes. One shot from a gun is not reliable enough

They do not pull the trigger, then stop and check to see if they hit their target. A semi-automatic pistol can fire as quickly as the shooter can pull the trigger again.

What hasn't been discussed much is why Ma'Khia was in foster care. Her grieving mother said she was "working very hard to get her daughter back." What kind of care was Ma'Khia in the foster home? Who called 911 about the fight, twice? Why was Ma'Khia in a fight with 2 other girls/women in the first place? There are a lot of questions to be answered and while they won't bring Ma'Khia back, we need some answers. One thing seems pretty certain. Ma'Khia was let down by her parents and the foster care system.

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 02:27 PM

19. Adding To Your Concern

There seems to be an awful lot of "feared for my life" excuses. Shot a guy with a phone in his hand? "Feared for my life."
Perhaps we need to screen for people who want to be cops but are constantly terrified by the situation.
After all, it's factual that being a cop is far from being the most dangerous occupation.
In fact, per this article, there are 21 more dangerous occupations. Including garbage collectors, delivery drivers & farmers.
https://www.ishn.com/articles/112748-top-25-most-dangerous-jobs-in-the-united-states
Maybe we need to quit hiring people who operate constantly in fear.

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #19)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 06:49 PM

24. Wow cops don't even make the top 10 most dangerous

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #19)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:51 AM

37. It's in the moment.



It may be far from being the most dangerous occupation. But at that moment it is FAR more dangerous than an average moment.

That being said, there is no doubt that some can not handle their fear as well.
I remember having buck fever one time as I was hunting. A rush of some chemicals that my body put out. I was just a kid, but I never forgot the moment.

Once, a policeman tapped on our window with a gun. My dad went outside to see what he wanted.
The policeman was trembling. The gun shaking in his hand as he told my dad what the situation was.
My dad said, "first of all, put your gun away".

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #7)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 06:44 PM

22. THIS !!!! ☝🏾☝🏾☝🏾

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Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #7)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 12:32 AM

33. Bias

Do they perceive males as bigger threats?

Do they perceive large people as bigger threats?

Do they perceive bikers as bigger threats?

Do they perceive people dressed in raggedy clothing as bigger threats?

Do they perceive people with tattoos as bigger threats?

Do they perceive anyone stopped in a poor neighborhood as bigger threats?


I heard a defense lawyer say that the officer was always judging the danger of a situation and using information such as zip code.


So yes, perceiving black people as bigger threats is one of the problems.
And another, I think even bigger, problem is that to a lot of policemen, the black person is given less respect as a person and their lives are not valued as highly.

A few hours of training at the Academy won't fix that.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:03 AM

8. "split-second decisions". Rep. Demmings knows, and tells it like it is. nt

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Response to oasis (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:10 AM

10. I agee nt

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Response to oasis (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 01:06 AM

38. +1

nt

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:20 AM

11. Agreed. Cops are trained to use the most lethal methods instead of de-escalation

Furthermore cops are trained by other cops to instantly assess black and brown people as lethal threats as soon as they lay eyes on them.

Demings is exactly right - training 100% kicked in

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:20 AM

12. Their training is that lethal force is met with lethal force

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:28 AM

13. This statement definitely opens things to interpretation. See below:

1) "The officer's actions were completely appropriate given the circumstances."

2) "I question if the training is 100% effective, given the outcome, even if the officer followed every step of the training by the book."

Either conclusion is entirely possible, given the way Val Demings chose her words. Personally, I'm in complete agreement with how she expressed her thoughts.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:45 AM

15. Val Demings has the experience and knows what she's talking about.

All this second guessing by random internet warriors is just noise.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Mon Apr 26, 2021, 11:51 AM

16. I'm very glad to see this. We could be in big trouble if the pendulum swings too far the other way.

The other day some MSNBC person said with great indignation, "Whatever the circumstances, a police officer shot a black child." She had no business rousing anger based on no good information.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 09:20 AM

44. A cop defends another cop and cop training? Huh.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 11:36 AM

48. I agree with her. If the other person had died of a stab wound, the cop would have been taken

to the cleaners about why he hesitated. There is a world of difference between most of the incidents we learn about (currently Mr. Brown in NC who seems to have been shot leaving and posed no threat to anyone) and this event with Ma'Khia Bryant.

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Response to cinematicdiversions (Original post)

Tue Apr 27, 2021, 11:39 AM

49. I agree with Demings

This officer will be cleared as he should be.

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