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Someone needs to tell Joe Manchin, Re: DC statehood to read the following: (Original Post) AZLD4Candidate Apr 2021 OP
The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations elleng Apr 2021 #1
The rules have applied to the other 37 states. Why change them for DC and, by extension, PR? AZLD4Candidate Apr 2021 #6
As a condition of admission Texas was given the right to form former9thward Apr 2021 #18
Yet again the reason why every single member of Congress should have to "ace" (not merely pass) a hlthe2b Apr 2021 #2
It's not that simple as DC is a special case and the Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on it. PoliticAverse Apr 2021 #3
Which is why they made a constitutional amendment to make it a district with EVs ColinC Apr 2021 #4
Which would just be ridiculous Amishman May 2021 #27
The area that people live in has far more people than ColinC May 2021 #29
Opinions of an attorney general aren't codified law or legal precedent. AZLD4Candidate Apr 2021 #5
When did PR apply for statehood? former9thward Apr 2021 #19
Well... it's JOE'S decision. WarGamer Apr 2021 #7
Sad, huh? One man has complete veto power of our entire government and the Democratic Party AZLD4Candidate Apr 2021 #8
What resignation? WarGamer Apr 2021 #9
If I misinterpreted, I apologize, but your tone in your reply had a tinge of resignation and defeat AZLD4Candidate Apr 2021 #10
Ohhh I see. WarGamer Apr 2021 #11
I'm running in AZ to stop this insanity in Arizona. AZLD4Candidate Apr 2021 #13
Those will just be overturned by the next Republican President, who will win with a minority... Humanist_Activist Apr 2021 #14
It's still got to be done. WarGamer Apr 2021 #15
What's the point? Democracy is dying the United States, even when we vote against... Humanist_Activist Apr 2021 #16
Because people getting $600 a month on SS WarGamer Apr 2021 #17
How would this get 60 votes even if Manchin supported it? Jose Garcia May 2021 #20
I always thought 51 was a majority out of 100, not 60. AZLD4Candidate May 2021 #21
The rules of the Senate require 60 Senators to agree to consider most legislation Jose Garcia May 2021 #22
No, that is only if the filibuster is invoked (which it doesn't have to be) OR the few exceptions Celerity May 2021 #23
Do any reasonable people think that it wouldn't be invoked for this bill? Jose Garcia May 2021 #24
of course it will be, that was not my point, and that is not what you claimed Celerity May 2021 #25
We'd get the same amount of things done in the Senate budkin Apr 2021 #12
We wouldn't have gotten COVID relief or many of Biden's cabinet picks... Silent3 May 2021 #26
Well, this may be. EndlessWire May 2021 #28

elleng

(130,865 posts)
1. The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 06:29 PM
Apr 2021

respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

The 'Travis Translation' of Article 4, Section 3: ... Congress can let new states into the Union, but no states can be formed inside another State.

AZLD4Candidate

(5,684 posts)
6. The rules have applied to the other 37 states. Why change them for DC and, by extension, PR?
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:22 PM
Apr 2021

Last time I checked, WV seceded from VA and was formed into a state.

former9thward

(31,987 posts)
18. As a condition of admission Texas was given the right to form
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 09:32 PM
Apr 2021

states within itself in 1845. Congress has never revoked that permission.

hlthe2b

(102,234 posts)
2. Yet again the reason why every single member of Congress should have to "ace" (not merely pass) a
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 06:30 PM
Apr 2021

civics and constitutional history exam--at least as rigorous as what our newly minted US citizens face after immigrating to the US.

PoliticAverse

(26,366 posts)
3. It's not that simple as DC is a special case and the Supreme Court has never explicitly ruled on it.
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 06:54 PM
Apr 2021

Manchin cites the similar opinion of others on this issue, including that of Robert F. Kennedy.

ColinC

(8,291 posts)
4. Which is why they made a constitutional amendment to make it a district with EVs
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:14 PM
Apr 2021

That being said, the new law differntiates between the district and the area around it that is separate from it. Congress designating that area as a state is fully within their authority if the president approves.

Amishman

(5,556 posts)
27. Which would just be ridiculous
Sat May 1, 2021, 10:30 AM
May 2021

A portion of a city simply doesn't make sense as a state.

There are other ways to fix the representation issue - namely restore most of DC to Maryland - as was already done with the VA portion

ColinC

(8,291 posts)
29. The area that people live in has far more people than
Sat May 1, 2021, 08:06 PM
May 2021

Wyoming. Making dc a state with extra electoral votes makes far more sense than arbitrarily drawing lines and designating them states -as was the case with so much of the west and midwest.

AZLD4Candidate

(5,684 posts)
5. Opinions of an attorney general aren't codified law or legal precedent.
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:19 PM
Apr 2021

He can count George Fitzhugh for all I care. Or do you believe that Americans should be taxed without representation in Congress, as the DC license plate says. These are American citizens. . .they require at least one Congressperson and two Senators.

That is the end of discuss. Our colonies are different (they aren't protectorates, they are colonies). They can also apply for statehood, as Puerto Rico has.

WarGamer

(12,439 posts)
7. Well... it's JOE'S decision.
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:23 PM
Apr 2021

If he says it's a no, it's a no.

But go ahead and fight with him.

One phone call and Manchin can sign in McConnell as speaker in less than 24 hours.

AZLD4Candidate

(5,684 posts)
8. Sad, huh? One man has complete veto power of our entire government and the Democratic Party
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:25 PM
Apr 2021

By your resignation, do you support Joe's decision?

WarGamer

(12,439 posts)
11. Ohhh I see.
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:30 PM
Apr 2021

No I'm not defeated or deflated.

We work with Manchin where we can.

HR1 (or w/e it's called now) is dead. DC Statehood is dead, as is PR...

So let's focus political JUICE and MOMENTUM on tax reform, infrastructure, Social Security reform and Healthcare.

THOSE are things we can get 50 DEMS and VP Harris to all agree on.

AZLD4Candidate

(5,684 posts)
13. I'm running in AZ to stop this insanity in Arizona.
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:33 PM
Apr 2021

I hope the rest of the country realizes this and votes out vulnerable GOP senators, or elects Democrats in open senate seats.

That way Manchin can drop the DINO act and cross sides.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
14. Those will just be overturned by the next Republican President, who will win with a minority...
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:37 PM
Apr 2021

of the popular vote, with a gerrymandered House that will also be Republican, and again, minority ruled, as will the Senate. At this point, Joe Manchin stands against democracy itself, not just the Democratic Party. Unless the filibuster is removed, democracy is dead in the United States, we are no longer backsliding, its just not going to be there, Russia 2.0.

WarGamer

(12,439 posts)
15. It's still got to be done.
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:39 PM
Apr 2021

Joe made promises. FOr example, the $15,200 MINIMUM Social Security level... that's a BFD as Joe would say.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
16. What's the point? Democracy is dying the United States, even when we vote against...
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:44 PM
Apr 2021

these bastards, our votes barely matter, and in 4 years, they won't matter at all. Without some way to shore up voting rights, reduce gerrymandering, etc. none of this will really matter. Joe Manchin is pushing a stake into the heart of our democracy that trump placed there, and you want to go through with the motions of what? Pretending he's on the side of democracy?

WarGamer

(12,439 posts)
17. Because people getting $600 a month on SS
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 09:14 PM
Apr 2021

Shouldn't have to eat dirt and live in a cardboard box...

Pass legislation that's POSSIBLE... NOW.

We may not have the chance next year. You know how election years make politicians squeamish.

Celerity

(43,333 posts)
23. No, that is only if the filibuster is invoked (which it doesn't have to be) OR the few exceptions
Sat May 1, 2021, 12:43 AM
May 2021

specifically spelled out in the Constitution.

One of the biggest myths going (and SO often used by Manchin, Sinema, Feinstein, a few other Dems, and most all of the Rethugs) is that the Founding fathers intended the Senate from the beginning to NOT be a majoritarian body. That is a flat out lie. The filibuster only was made possible by an 1806 mistake that came from Aaron Burr's foolish suggestion in 1805 (ie. the removal of the previous question motion).

Senate Filibuster Was Created By Mistake (in 1805/1806)

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2013/11/20/senate-filibuster-was-created-by-mistake/

In 2010, Brookings Senior Fellow Sarah Binder, an expert on Congress and congressional history, testified to the Senate that “the filibuster was created by mistake.” We have many received wisdoms about the filibuster. However, most of them are not true. The most persistent myth is that the filibuster was part of the founding fathers’ constitutional vision for the Senate: It is said that the upper chamber was designed to be a slow-moving, deliberative body that cherished minority rights. In this version of history, the filibuster was a critical part of the framers’ Senate.

However, when we dig into the history of Congress, it seems that the filibuster was created by mistake. Let me explain. The House and Senate rulebooks in 1789 were nearly identical. Both rulebooks included what is known as the “previous question” motion. The House kept their motion, and today it empowers a simple majority to cut off debate. The Senate no longer has that rule on its books.

What happened to the Senate’s rule? In 1805, Vice President Aaron Burr was presiding over the Senate (freshly indicted for the murder of Alexander Hamilton), and he offered this advice. He said something like this. You are a great deliberative body. But a truly great Senate would have a cleaner rule book. Yours is a mess. You have lots of rules that do the same thing. And he singles out the previous question motion. Now, today, we know that a simple majority in the House can use the rule to cut off debate. But in 1805, neither chamber used the rule that way. Majorities were still experimenting with it. And so when Aaron Burr said, get rid of the previous question motion, the Senate didn’t think twice. When they met in 1806, they dropped the motion from the Senate rule book.

Why? Not because senators in 1806 sought to protect minority rights and extended debate. They got rid of the rule by mistake: Because Aaron Burr told them to. Once the rule was gone, senators still did not filibuster. Deletion of the rule made possible the filibuster because the Senate no longer had a rule that could have empowered a simple majority to cut off debate. It took several decades until the minority exploited the lax limits on debate, leading to the first real-live filibuster in 1837.

snip

Celerity

(43,333 posts)
25. of course it will be, that was not my point, and that is not what you claimed
Sat May 1, 2021, 10:07 AM
May 2021


that is not a factual statement

'require' and 'option to use' are two different things

budkin

(6,700 posts)
12. We'd get the same amount of things done in the Senate
Fri Apr 30, 2021, 07:32 PM
Apr 2021

Because he won’t be voting for anything in Biden’s agenda unless 10 Rs decide to join. So I say get it over with.

Silent3

(15,206 posts)
26. We wouldn't have gotten COVID relief or many of Biden's cabinet picks...
Sat May 1, 2021, 10:15 AM
May 2021

...without Manchin, so please, while I too am frustrated by Manchin, it is ridiculous in the extreme to think having Mitch running the Senate would be pretty much the same. What we have with Manchin is much, MUCH better.

My frustration with Manchin comes from all the extra good the he (and Sinema too) stand in the way of, and the fact that he knows how important he his, and I think he likes that way too damned much.

EndlessWire

(6,514 posts)
28. Well, this may be.
Sat May 1, 2021, 10:43 AM
May 2021

But, he's not much better. And, The People are tired of it. He shouldn't wonder why he's hated by his own side.

At least most people can see now. The Repubs are more than just Americans with a different point of view; they are fascists. Whatever they were before, they are not now. And, he is thus siding with fascism. It's Party Over Country with them.

Why is it that people are now conditioned to know automatically that "Joe" won't approve? He's an obstructionist. He's probably receiving instructions from Trump through McConnell.

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