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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust saw Kamau Bell on CNN still defending the phrase "defund the police".
Last edited Sat May 1, 2021, 03:57 PM - Edit history (1)
I generally like him but he's, IMO, so wrong on this wording. There was a video with a chart that showed a guy talking about redistributing portions of a police budget to other agencies like social services etc. He then said no one can really argue with the premise of the chart, once they get past the phrase "defund the police".
I wanted to scream. The point is most people can't get past the phrase. My thought is and has been since the ridiculous term was introduced, is that defund the police immediately brings to mind that there will be no police.
Just as elections have consequences, so do word choices. It showed immediately in the 2020 election as we lost several Congressional seats we won in the 2018 blue wave as republicans used that phrase to scare voters and now out majority in the house is razor thin.
Words have consequences and I don't get how intelligent people like Bell don't get that. Defund the police means no police to many voters. When you have to explain a slogan or a position, you're already losing.
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Treefrog
(4,170 posts)
brush
(53,764 posts)Treefrog
(4,170 posts)So I agree with you.
misanthrope
(7,411 posts)Last edited Sat May 1, 2021, 03:49 PM - Edit history (2)
I don't have much respect for his journalistic chops. It's a long story but he accepted lies about local history when obvious evidence to the contrary was right in front of him. No questions. No, "Hey, then maybe you can explain these things right here." He just accepted the prevarications as truth and let it pass to his audience with no exception.
Indykatie
(3,695 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... voted for reps because of dtp?
thx in advance
The reason I ask is people I even respect keep saying this without a sliver of fact to back it up other than anectdotes.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)in Ohio...for sure.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... legal in the united states and its in the constitution.
People would swear up and down that's not true but is in the 13th amendment clear as day.
If you got any exit polling, anything on DTP I would love to see otherwise democrats are making huge excuses for losing those down ballot races due to bad campaigning not a slogan,
We can't address our issues if we don't admit to them
hurl
(938 posts)Those can be the same thing. IMO, this slogan in Texas and other GOP-dominated states is itself bad campaigning... Good campaigning involves reading the room, and that is exactly where this slogan falls on its face in Texas, where law enforcement has an undeserved protected status free from serious criticism. It doesn't matter how reasonable the DTP argument is. Reason is not a dominating factor here, so our campaigning has to take this into account if it is to be effective.
A similar example: 'Gun safety' is better phraseology than 'gun control' in Texas. A campaign that uses 'gun control' in its advertising is unlikely to get traction in Texas, while 'gun safety' has a better chance of not being rejected out of hand. It's the same situation. Bad slogans ARE bad campaigning.
We have to take the electorate we are dealt and adapt accordingly.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... fully did make it part of their platform
The bad campaigning is not being on attack enough ... or ... not refuting with a counter attack a slogan ascribed to a candidate that wants nothing to do with it.
The latter is 04JohnKerry and swift boating and we all know what letting the stupid anchor itself would do.
That's what people we respect and people and here on DU are saying down ballot candidates did; straight up not respond in kind or with aggression to a slogan they didn't ascribe to.
THAT'S ... bad campaigning hands down and not the fault of a slogan
hurl
(938 posts)when we're dealt an electorate unequipped to process reason.
I fully agree with Bell's position on defunding the police as a policy, because I understand the reasoning. However, I also recognize that this is a terrible mistake to use as a campaign slogan here because most voters do not have my perspective.
The problem is the electorate itself, and to that you must adapt if you want to achieve even a modicum of success. I don't like it either but it's reality.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... and responded to with the derision and then deflection or just the plain truth about the candidate.
Trump was very talented at that; derision then deflection
Ask John Kerry in his '04 campaign what he thought he did wrong when he came to the swift boating
To let that Theme about his service go on for months with a huge mistake on his team's part because it took just that much longer for that message to be dug out
Bottom line let's say there is proof that the fund the police was a gating factor in many of the down ballot losses (Proof through exit polls not our opinions) ...
For those down ballot candidates to allow themselves to be defined by their opponents via that slogan without a swift meaningful derisive then deflective counterattack is not good campaigning, that's 04JohnKerry
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... that you admit “... few to no one ... fully did make it part of their platform”.
That should tell you all you need to know. WHY did almost no dem candidate embrace that slogan?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... a damn slogan that beat our down ballot candidates despite what people I respect say about the losses.
and
2. Any candidate that allows themselves to be defined by the opponent with something they don't support is running a bad campaign. Hit hard and first and don't let up with defining the kGQP and they don't have room for slogans that few to no one ascribed to.
We all know what happened to Kerry in 04, his team allowed his service message to be defined with little to no derision / deflection response and that was a mistake then too.
Response to uponit7771 (Reply #155)
Post removed
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... us first is a bad strategy even if you did have empirical data that dtp beat us down ballot and you don't.
Don't jump on the band wagon unless you know what you're jumping on to.
Whiskeytide
(4,461 posts)... a self own. Whether a Dem candidate agrees with it/embraces it or not, the opposing candidate will try to hang it around their neck because SOME Dems are still calling for it nationally. It’s a waste of resources to spend time and $ to counter a slogan that members of our own party are throwing out there needlessly.
And - again - I don’t know if there is polling on the issue. But it’s pretty self evident from the reaction of the RWNJ media circus that THEY consider it to be a great issue to harp on. They’re assholes, but they’re pretty crafty assholes who know how to sling red meat. This was just a gift to them.
caber09
(666 posts)
Amishman
(5,555 posts)DTP has terrible optics. Add in ongoing unrest in cities, and you get scared stupid people in the suburbs.
If the Pubs managed to muzzle their lunatic wing, they could take congress from us. As I said elsewhere this morning, our current grasp on power is very tenuous. Rock the boat too much and we could easily capsize.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... tried to show some jaded article on it claiming there was a nation wide movement to dtp (there wasn't) and a 12% difference in support post election but that's about it.
Anyone with any exit polling on dtp I would love to see ... there has been mostly derision so far but no empirical exit polling like data
caber09
(666 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)
FlyingPiggy
(3,383 posts)
Kahuna
(27,311 posts)FlyingPiggy
(3,383 posts)Not what it means but what it sounds like. And as we both know, in a world of disinformation, it becomes even more paramount. But this seems to be lost on some people.
Cha
(297,137 posts)refuse to accept it.. it's bizarre.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)The poling shows that this stupid slogan hurt down ballot candidates in the real world. There are posters on this board who are claiming that any Democrat who lost in 2020 due to this ignorant slogan are bad democrats who deserved to lose. I know two candidates who ran for state house races and they had ads sponsored by a GOP pac that discussed socialism and defund the police and feature a prominent member of the Just Us Dem caucus. These ads were effective
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)Link to tweet
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/david-shor-analysis-2020-election-autopsy-democrats-polls.html
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/03/david-shor-2020-democrats-autopsy-hispanic-vote-midterms-trump-gop.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/2020-election-democrats-lost-ground-with-voters-of-color-strategy-for-2022/#x
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... dem because of dtp?
tia
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...and I recall vividly how it was our party's timidity in the face of those attacks which did us in.
I watched a Medal of Honor recipient hounded as a traitor as our party recoiled in fear of offending someone by fighting back. Watched a party so afraid of looking 'soft on defense' acquiesce to another trumped-up war. Watched a party afraid of appearing 'soft on crime' condemn black youth to lives dominated by police brutality and incarceration.
It's interesting to watch the same weak strategies being advocated today.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I'm old enough time remember a time when "Black Lives Matter" was cryptonite - only to see Black Lives Matter signs in the windows of just about every department store, grocery store, office building within sight and Fortune 500 company incorporate the Black Lives Matter banner on their websites.
So ...
FlyingPiggy
(3,383 posts)But, we don’t have to help them either.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...I can't believe people think this scolding and shaming our own over something republicans might demagogue does any political good.
It's dirt dumb strategy to eat our own over this, RIGHT ALONG with republicans, but it's caught on with Democrats like the hula-hoop.
FlyingPiggy
(3,383 posts)Of DTP is detrimental. Lose it and move one with a different wording. It’s not that hard. No one is saying to dump reforming the police. Just words it differently.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...
George II
(67,782 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)Again, your false claims that any real Democrat who lost their race due to the moronic "defund the police" slogan are really bad democrats and deserved to lose. Such a claim is both ignorant and offensive. I had two friends who ran in state house races in my county who lost after the GOP ran another of ads using socialism and defund the police. These ads quoted or featured members of the squad (who are not popular outside their deep blue districts) and were effective. Both of my friends are actual members of the Democratic party and ran campaigns that should have won but the negative ads used.
These ads were effective. For example these attacks were used in the Maine Senate race which Susan Collins won
Link to tweet
This line of attack was used in South Carolina against Jaime Harrison
Link to tweet
President Obama is clear that this line of attack cost Democrats down ballot races
Link to tweet
In an interview with Peter Hamby, who hosts the Snapchat political show “Good Luck America,” Obama said “you [lose] a big audience the minute” a slogan like “defund the police” is used, making “it a lot less likely that you’re actually going to get the changes you want done.”
“Defund the police” refers to the reallocation or redirection of government funding from police departments to social services for minority communities. As Rashawn Ray of the Brookings Institution noted, defunding does not mean the abolishment of police departments but instead “highlights fiscal responsibility” and “advocates for a market-driven approach to taxpayer money.”....
Obama ― echoing other centrist Democrats who’ve similarly taken issue with “defund the police” and what they’ve decried as radical messaging ― told Hamby that Democrats could benefit from adopting softer rhetoric when talking about police reform.
“If you instead say, ‘Hey, you know what? Let’s reform the police department so that everybody’s being treated fairly. And not just in policing, but in sentencing, how can we divert young people from getting into crime?’” he said.
Joe Biden is clear on this also That is how the real worls works Here is a good explanation https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/huge-catastrophe-democrats-grapple-congressional-state-election-losses-n1248529
In leaked recording, Biden says GOP used 'defund the police' to 'beat the living hell' out of Democrats
Republicans barraged swing districts with ads linking moderates to the most far-left voices in the party, which has led to bitter recriminations between the factions.
"When you're Joe Biden and you have 47 years in public life and you have a billion dollars behind you, you can build your own brand," said Matt Bennett, executive vice president of the centrist think tank Third Way. "But when you're down-ballot, it's hard to outrun that brand in red and purple districts."
I saw this in two down ballot races in my county where the GOP ran a ton of defund the police and soclialsim ads
I have forwarded you polling that showed that the defund the police was toxic and the fact that you are unable to understand such polling is another source of amusement to me. The fact that you do not understand the polling does not mean that it does exist. Clearly the GOP understood this polling and used such polling to win some races
Again, I trust the polling posted and I trust Presidents Obama and Biden on this issue. Your claims are false and offensive
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)The fact that you do not understand the polling presented amuses me
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... backed up by any empirical numbers.
This is getting childish
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)gain, your false claims that any real Democrat who lost their race due to the moronic "defund the police" slogan are really bad democrats and deserved to lose. Such a claim is both ignorant and offensive. I had two friends who ran in state house races in my county who lost after the GOP ran another of ads using socialism and defund the police. These ads quoted or featured members of the squad (who are not popular outside their deep blue districts) and were effective. Both of my friends are actual members of the Democratic party and ran campaigns that should have won but the negative ads used.
These ads were effective. For example these attacks were used in the Maine Senate race which Susan Collins won
Link to tweet
This line of attack was used in South Carolina against Jaime Harrison
Link to tweet
President Obama is clear that this line of attack cost Democrats down ballot races
Link to tweet
In an interview with Peter Hamby, who hosts the Snapchat political show “Good Luck America,” Obama said “you [lose] a big audience the minute” a slogan like “defund the police” is used, making “it a lot less likely that you’re actually going to get the changes you want done.”
“Defund the police” refers to the reallocation or redirection of government funding from police departments to social services for minority communities. As Rashawn Ray of the Brookings Institution noted, defunding does not mean the abolishment of police departments but instead “highlights fiscal responsibility” and “advocates for a market-driven approach to taxpayer money.”....
Obama ― echoing other centrist Democrats who’ve similarly taken issue with “defund the police” and what they’ve decried as radical messaging ― told Hamby that Democrats could benefit from adopting softer rhetoric when talking about police reform.
“If you instead say, ‘Hey, you know what? Let’s reform the police department so that everybody’s being treated fairly. And not just in policing, but in sentencing, how can we divert young people from getting into crime?’” he said.
Joe Biden is clear on this also That is how the real worls works Here is a good explanation https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/huge-catastrophe-democrats-grapple-congressional-state-election-losses-n1248529
In leaked recording, Biden says GOP used 'defund the police' to 'beat the living hell' out of Democrats
Republicans barraged swing districts with ads linking moderates to the most far-left voices in the party, which has led to bitter recriminations between the factions.
"When you're Joe Biden and you have 47 years in public life and you have a billion dollars behind you, you can build your own brand," said Matt Bennett, executive vice president of the centrist think tank Third Way. "But when you're down-ballot, it's hard to outrun that brand in red and purple districts."
I saw this in two down ballot races in my county where the GOP ran a ton of defund the police and soclialsim ads
I have forwarded you polling that showed that the defund the police was toxic and the fact that you are unable to understand such polling is another source of amusement to me. The fact that you do not understand the polling does not mean that it does exist. Clearly the GOP understood this polling and used such polling to win some races
Again, I trust the polling posted and I trust Presidents Obama and Biden on this issue. Your claims are false and offensive
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)We lost Max Rose's seat due to the Defund the Police stupidity https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/06/nyregion/election-nyc-defund-police.html
“The Republican promise was strong in terms of safety,” said Thomas Abbate, 46, a mechanical engineer from Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, who voted for Mr. Rose in 2018, but switched his vote this year to the Republican candidate, Nicole Malliotakis, because he said he feels his neighborhood is in decline. “We need a change.”....
Then, as calls to defund the police swirled around New York City and Black Lives Matter demonstrations filled the streets this summer, Mr. Rose joined a protest. That further alienated some moderate voters.
“The Republican promise was strong in terms of safety,” said Thomas Abbate, 46, a mechanical engineer from Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, who voted for Mr. Rose in 2018, but switched his vote this year to the Republican candidate, Nicole Malliotakis, because he said he feels his neighborhood is in decline. “We need a change.”....
The 11th Congressional District, represented by Mr. Rose, encompasses Staten Island and a part of South Brooklyn, and has long been the city’s most conservative. Guy Molinari and Susan Molinari, a Republican father and daughter political dynasty, represented the district in Congress for most of the 1980s and 1990s.
Mr. Rose was elected in a “blue wave” in 2018, beating the incumbent, Dan Donovan, by running as an anti-establishment centrist, saying he wanted to “get rid of all the leadership in D.C. — Republican and Democrat.”
But Ms. Malliotakis easily found success linking Mr. Rose, a veteran, to the Black Lives Matter movement and the progressive factions of his party, including the city’s unpopular mayor.
“She was able to paint Max Rose as less strong on law and order,” said Jim Lamond, 79, a resident of Bay Ridge who voted Democrat, but who has close friends who didn’t. “They thought Rose was too linked to de Blasio,” referring to Bill de Blasio, the New York City mayor.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)on Black Lives Matter. Should the Democratic party abandon them to help "win"?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... dems ran on it.
It also shows just a 12% difference in voting popularity which means nothing
The kGQP took the slogan and ascribed it to dem candidates down ballot and it was ... ALLOWED ... to stick.
I think people, who I respect, are pinning the blame on a slogan no one can PROVE lost us anything.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)That's the reality here: Defund the Police isn't inherently bad. The slogan wasn't good, tho.
Do you think the rioting helped or hurt Democrats?
I suspect it hurt. Kenosha, Wisconsin was a county Obama carried in 2008 and 2012 by a sizable margin. It's a county Hillary barely lost in 2016.
Trump won it by three-points in 2020, despite losing Wisconsin - that was 2 points better than in 2016 (when he won the state).
Do you think maybe what happened in Kenosha helped him, especially in the suburban areas of Kenosha City?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)I know that in my town, Sacramento, there was a particular evening when the police shot a journalist and a bona-fide observer in the face with rubber bullets. There had been no provocation by the protesters. One block over there was what appeared to be organized looting and no police bothered to even look.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I don't know about any other riots.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/18/fact-check-nearly-all-arrests-kenosha-protests-were-area/3492839001/
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)not anything about rioting or who may have started it. In Sacramento I saw the police fire rubber bullets and throw tear gas at protesters not engaged in any violence.
I can't speak to Kenosha wasn't there and I don't have any other information. I did find it interesting the police being so aggressive with the Riot Kitchen folks.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Your comment about Sacramento is irrelevant.
Here's more on some of the people charged:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/crime/2021/02/22/pair-charged-kenosha-looting-during-jacob-blake-protests-august/4539196001/
Here's the IG account of the girl:
https://www.instagram.com/rhyanon_mcnab
I could not find anything on Antoine Simpson.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)The first article you posted showed that most of the people arrested were from an area that could easily be considered local. Which absolutely supports what you said about the makeup of the participants. I know nothing further regarding rioting in Kenosha. Were there protests that turned into riots? Did protesters become violent at some point? Was there outside agitation? Did the police escalate the violence?
The first link in your current post did lead me to find out this is where Kyle Rittenhouse decided to murder protesters. So there was some outside agitation. The police did give Kyle and some of his vigilante buddies water before he started shooting people and let him escape after he did. I'm going to say I suspect some over exhauburance on the part of that police department. I do admit I can't point to anything other than the cozy relationship with vigilantes and not bothering to detain the guy who shot a couple of people to death.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)Read the material posted. Why are telling falsehoods ?
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... and a lack of exit polling lets me know what I should.
Please post to me about something else, thx in advance
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)Read the Real Clear Politics and Forbes articles or have someone read these polls and explain them to you
I find your falsehoods to be as sad as your disgusting comments about real democrats about real Democratic candidates who lost in 2020 due to Defund the Police ads used by the GOP
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)It has been clear to me that you have never worked in a campaign and have no idea as to how campaigns work in the real world. Your emphasis on exit polls has been a source of amusement to me in that this is a great example as to how little you understand how the real world operated. Thank you for the laughs
I finally decided to humor you (after all you have provide me with some good laughs) and found some exit polls for you. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html
I beg to differ. I think this was a law and order election.
According to early exit polls, here were the reasons that voters voted for Trump and presumably other Republicans: The economy (82%), crime and safety (71%), health care policy (36%), the coronavirus pandemic (14%) and racial inequality (8%).....
Maybe the slogan “defund the police” backfired.
Democrats might reply: But Biden and Harris rejected the phrase “defund the police.” Indeed, they did. And Donald Trump has repeatedly denounced and rejected white supremacy and white nationalism. Nevertheless, the mainstream media and Democratic propagandists (but I repeat myself again) have told us for four years that by denouncing white supremacy in public, Trump is secretly approving of white supremacy, dog-whistle-style.
Turnabout is fair play. Having tried to persuade voters that all Republicans are closet Nazis whose public statements cannot be taken at face value, Democratic spinmeisters in the media cannot be surprised if it turns out that some swing voters have concluded that apparently mainstream Democrats are closet antifa sympathizers. Possibly many swing voters thought that actions—or, in the case of the summer riots, inaction—spoke louder than words about the Democratic Party’s attitude to law enforcement, particularly when many Democratic urban governments from Minneapolis to Austin proceeded relentlessly to cut police budgets in the name of racial justice, even as the violence was going on.
When you put together two facts—the fact that the Republican Party as a whole picked up voters, and the fact that 71% of voters for the Republican presidential candidate said they were motivated by “crime and safety”—it all adds up. The voter backlash following the urban riots of 1967 helped to produce the Nixon victory of 1968. And the voter backlash following the urban riots of 2020 helped to produce the Republican electoral wave in November 2020.
Cha
(297,137 posts)the facts on the ground.. it doesn't change REALITY!
And, this is fucked up.. Sara Gedeon had nothing the do with "Defund the police".
TY for your Informative post, LMPV!.. I just hope the Dems running in Swing states, who we so vitally need, will stand up and strongly Denounce this SHIIT!
Hekate
(90,643 posts)As the OP said, “ When you have to explain a slogan or a position, you're already losing.”
brush
(53,764 posts)Election day polling is the most accurate polling there is and we lost several seats that we won in the 2018 blue wave due to republicans scaring voters successfully with the defund the police slogan (the dumbest slogan ever). Our majority in the House was reduced to a razor thin advantage.
If you want further evidence see posts 32 and 52 for polls and actual observed knowledge.
I'm kind of surprised that you, a long-time poster, would resort to this.
Cha
(297,137 posts)after all the shite we've been through the last few years... not much does.
brush
(53,764 posts)Stay well.
Cha
(297,137 posts)to see reality denied.. if we weren't strong it could drive us crazy!
At least we have a POTUS who lives in Reality now.. Thank Goodness!
:
You stay well, too.. the fight never ends.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... factor it would've shown up post election.
brush
(53,764 posts)effect on the 2020 election botn nationally and statewide.
It's the dumbest slogan ever.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)Again, I remain amused by your lack of experience in working on campaigns in the real world. Thank you for the laughs
It took less than a half of a minute to find another poll that proves your uniformed claims are wrong. https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2020/11/17/new-post-election-poll-reveals-how-democrats-leftward-movement-cost-the-party-in-the-2020-election/?sh=403ab6b4675f
Ultimately, the election results taken together with our survey findings show that it was the Democratic party’s movement to the left that represents a clear drag on their level of support and a potential problem going forward for the party both in governing and in the 2022 midterm elections. Accordingly, a majority (62%) of SCR’s survey respondents take Joe Biden’s likely victory as a mandate for centrist policies, compromise, and coming together with Republicans; as opposed to a mandate for Biden to pursue progressive policies (28%)......
Not only did Biden’s narrower-than-expected victory not coincide with the blue-wave that Democrats anticipated in down-ballot races, but our findings also suggest that Donald Trump would have been reelected, most likely easily, if not for the coronavirus pandemic and the economic downturn that followed. Trump actually overperformed in most battlegrounds and ran close margins in lean-Democrat states like Wisconsin and Michigan, where Biden held wide polling leads in months prior.
SCR’s survey findings also suggest that most voters did not see a clear Democratic agenda; moreover, Democratic candidates were hurt by their party’s associations with far-left attitudes and movements—in particular, the movement to defund the police.
By a 12-point margin, 35% to 23%, respondents said that the movements across the country to defund the police made them less likely to vote for Democrats. Likewise, by a 12-point margin, 32% to 20%, respondents also said that these movements made them more likely to vote for Republicans.
Again, the polling shows that the GOP use of attack ads featuring Defund the Police were very effective. Your attacks on good Democrats who lost due to these ads are truly sad and disgusting. The polls prove that you are wrong and you need to apologize to the good members of the Democratic Party who lost elections that they should had won but for these attacks
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... is desperate on its face.
Response to uponit7771 (Reply #103)
Post removed
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)you convince anyone to see things your way.
Response to StarfishSaver (Reply #165)
Post removed
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Maybe you'll feel better tomorrow.
Good night.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)lapucelle
(18,247 posts)we'll get further answers concerning messaging that helped and hurt Democrats in 2020.
https://www.iq.harvard.edu/news/crunching-data-american-elections-cooperative-congressional-election-study-cces
https://cces.gov.harvard.edu/pages/welcome-cooperative-congressional-election-study
caber09
(666 posts)Just stop being wrong and admit this severely damaged us https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2021/03/06/defund_the_police_cost_democrats_minority_votes_537561.html#!
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)
Owl
(3,641 posts)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)by people like Carville.
Response to brush (Original post)
brush This message was self-deleted by its author.
oswaldactedalone
(3,490 posts)Better phrasing is: “Reimagine The Police.” Defund the police is nonsense and bad politics. Be smarter than that.
Celerity
(43,304 posts)Readjust, De-racialise, De-radicalise, etc.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)police. It is a justice issue...Justice is being denied to African Americans and other minorities period. It is horrific and must end. I see that Justice is charging the police who use excessive for and/or kill people with civil right violations. Good, make it so bad for them that they will stop and think next time about what they have to lose and realize they are not invincible. I think some college would help too...policing should require a two-year degree.
I would like to see more social welfare spending too but don't tie it to the police issue because it will be used against us. And while more spending will help, we will always need a police force: hopefully better than what we have now.
Celerity
(43,304 posts)slung about for decades and few good faith actors are buying (especially us PoC) anymore.
I do agree that defund is horrid messaging, but 'reform' is shady AF now too.
Demsrule86
(68,543 posts)Nope, we make it so miserable for them, that they change their egregious behavior and get rid of bad cops. As for not buying it and good faith and all that stuff...it is going to take a big effort to end this. I don't think what you describe has a snowball's chance in hell. The ultimate goal is to hold police departments accountable for their officers and to hold said officers accountable for their behavior. And that needs to happen at the ballot box.
I would see some of the comments here as people giving up on the process...and you can never give up...I think the Floyd verdict was very important, and I also think the fact the Justice planned to step in and arrest Chauvin at the courthouse if he was exonerated and charge him federally is huge. That is what needs to happen.
And please consider that you do need allies in this fight and some of the comments (not saying from you) have been divisive and I think somewhat mean-spirited. When all is said and done, we need to fix this for every American's sake. And it will happen at the ballot box or not at all. This is why remaining united on this issue is vital. Institutional Racism and police violence is a scourge on our nation and it must end.
Celerity
(43,304 posts)I did not describe anything other than better branding. The 'reform' card has been flopped on the table for 3 or 4 decades and its becoming
except it ends with our deaths at the hands of the coppers and not a football snatched away.
Also, unless Manchin and Sinema cave in and accept truly impactful filibuster modifications (Manchin has shot down most already and Sinema is even more radical in that she wants a 60 vote threshold for ALL Senate action, including a repeal of the two mini-nuke exceptions on the books now) no racial justice or police bill will ever get a floor vote as we will never be able to invoke cloture. Same for the voter rights/protections bills (the lack of which will like well fuck us in 2022, 20224, and beyond as the Rethugs. run riot at state level with 100's of suppression laws and regulations).
We fail to deliver on truly meaningful racial justice and policing fixes, we are truly putting the black vote in many key areas at risk.
Unless Biden can pull off some supercharged Executive Orders, the black vote is quite possibly going to tail off even more than it traditionally does in midterms.
Really interesting interviews today/yesterday with Trymaine Lee on MSNBC and Milwaukee black voters
early warning signs here:
Milwaukee is THE bellwether for black turnout in the entire Midwest (if not the nation) as the black voters there are so, so hard to get to come out (they did for Biden, which let him barely scrape out a win in WI in 2020) AND they hold all Wisconsin state-wide offices and US Senate/POTUS races in the palms of their hands.
If just 4 cities (Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and Detroit) had had 2012 level (2008 level was not even needed) black turnout, Clinton would have beaten Trump. The difference in fall-off for black voters from 2012 to 2016 was greater than the total number of Stein voters in all 3 states. (and not every Stein voter was a Dem anyway, roughly 65-70% were, the rest were always Green who will almost never vote for a Dem no matter what). If black voters had turned out in WI in 2020 at 2016 levels, Biden would have lost the state, same for GA and likely AZ (data is a bit thin there so far).
Remember, just 22,000 or so D to R flips split between 3 states (AZ, WI, GA) and Trump would be POTUS still. (270-270 tie with the Rethugs electing him in the House due to their controlling 27 state delegations, and now, post 2020 Census reapportionment of EV's, Trump would have won outright with the exact same theoretical vote totals, ie. including either those 22,000 or so D to R flips OR a falloff of the black vote equal to 2016 or a combination of the two factors).
Milwaukee voters want targeted relief for Black community
https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/milwaukee-voters-want-targeted-relief-for-black-community-111082565878
Milwaukee’s Black voters assess Biden’s first 100 days
https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/milwaukee-s-black-voters-assess-biden-s-first-100-days-111047749955
Black Milwaukee voters want more action on police reform, grade him 'B minus' so far
https://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/black-milwaukee-voters-want-more-action-on-police-reform-grade-him-b-minus-so-far-111067717716
brush
(53,764 posts)Last edited Sat May 1, 2021, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)
for decades and has had no effect. Fresher wording is needed as people hear "reform" and hear it as just a cliche that politicians mouth.
Again, fresher wording is needed, and it's certainly not defund the police, or reform the police either for that matter.
Maybe it's time to be direct and to the point.
"Stop police killings".
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)Reform is pro-active, participatory, and the other is frank and to the point.
Both could be used as they don't work against each other.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)I don't need to explain they are the cause of most of the violence.
brush
(53,764 posts)and whether it loses votes for Democratic candidates?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)loses us a lot more votes than standing up for our principles.
brush
(53,764 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)Trump supporters belonged to two groups decent people and deplorables. Did the Democratic party get behind here and support the truth she said? No the Democratic party coward and worried it might offend deplorables. That is cowardice.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... predator who in the hell votes for that ?!!?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... the cause of down ballot losses.
NONE
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)eliminating the police, I have to assume the other side was listening closely to warnings about no police.
It was an incredibly stupid phrase that should be dead and buried and never used again.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... and stop supporting police escalating every situation with PoC to 13 on a 5 scale every time they get a chance.
I capitalize sentiment because the American people understood in polling at that time that is what the phrase was.
I'm black, no way I want to pay people to terrorize me but no doubt we minimum need to keep order.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)getting tear gassed and shot at by the police as you try to exercise your first amendment rights you can make up your own slogan. Until then you can squeek your objections while safely behind your keyboard.
brush
(53,764 posts)"behind your keyboard" rhetoric. "Defund the police" is the stupidest slogan ever invented. Anyone defending it makes one wonder about their ahhhh...how should I put it...let's say, critical thinking skills. Yeah, that's it.
And also better sloganeering skills are needed as one doesn't want slogans that push away supporters.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)to run their ideas past a focus group.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)Guess that never occurred to them, but that's evident.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)which you evidently were not.
brush
(53,764 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Like the keyboard warriors who say, "My fellow white people don't understand what 'Black Lives Matter' means so you need to go back and come up with a better slogan to express yourselves before you can expect them to be sensitive to your issues ... I'll wait over here with them chatting about family and kittens while you work on that."
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)it's never the right phrase, it's never the right time, and we can never be sure it's really racism.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)EX500rider
(10,839 posts)Over 16,000 homicides in a year in the US and the majority had nothing to do with the police.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Also in 2019, the FBI's data reports that there were approximately 1,203,808 violent crimes in the US.
Again, vast majority having nothing to do with the police.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime#United_States
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Is he employed by the Democratic Party for policy or communications?
If not, then he can say whatever he pleases.
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)It's pretty obvious that anyone can say "whatever he pleases", including both the OP and and those who think that promulgating a particular talking point is counterproductive at best.
Welcome to DU.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)If he is not in any way affiliated with the Democratic Party he is only speaking for himself.
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Did Bell associate with the Democratic Party?
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Defund the police was associated with the Democratic Party. Did Bell do that?
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)Anyone who would like to limit the expression of his or her opinion concerning the statements of others to only those statements made by or that originated with party spokespeople or strategists is perfectly free to set those parameters for his or her own speech.
Expecting "answers" from those who choose not to fall in line, however, might be interpreted as grossly entitled.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)and have been since my first post in this thread.
Bell is not a Democratic Party spokesman or official, don’t even know if he is a registered Democrat. If he wants to express his personal opinion on an issue he is allowed to do so.
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)for defending the slogan because it allegedly cost Democrats seats in Congress. My point is and always has been that Bell isn’t a Democratic Party official or spokesman, he speaks only for himself and allowed to say whatever he wants.
Cha
(297,137 posts)smh.
Mahalo, my friend!
Cha
(297,137 posts)Because we don't have enough gaslight.
brush
(53,764 posts)where the stupid phrase arose and was promptly affixed to the Democratic Party by right wing media? Did you miss all that?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)we should believe that it is true?
brush
(53,764 posts)And it's pretty evident that it negatively affected many as we almost lost back most of the House seats we won in the 2018 blue wave as it scared many voters away form Dem candidates.
See posts 32 and 52.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Is he an official or spokesman for the Democratic Party?
brush
(53,764 posts)win, it's a good idea, especially if you have a national TV platform like Bell does, to not defend the "defund the police" slogan, quite possibly the dumbest one ever coined.
See also post 87.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)He has a right to his personal opinion. Just because the right wing lies doesn’t mean he should be censored.
Maybe we should spend more time denouncing the lies and those who tell them rather than an individual exercising their 1st amendment rights.
brush
(53,764 posts)Carry on.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)of the intelligence of opinions that you think you are. I for one reject your frequently mentioned opinion that defunding the police is dumb.
brush
(53,764 posts)And I express that freely as that's what a discussion board is for. And you're welcome to express yours.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)and I'll disagree with you as I see fit.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Defund the police a dumb policy and attacking someone, who is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, from supporting it.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)He is still not an official or spokesman for the Democratic Party. He has a right to voice his personal opinion.
caber09
(666 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)an official or spokesman of the Democratic Party? Is that untrue?
George II
(67,782 posts)There are tens of millions of registered Democrats. Each and every one speaks for the Democratic Party in their own way.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Every Democrat does not speak for the Democratic Party.
That said, do you even know that Kamau is a Democrat?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)I don’t speak for the Democratic Party and have been a registered Democrat for over 40 years.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Unless you can prove that he is, your argument has no merit.
George II
(67,782 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)And being "affiliated" with an organization is very different than representing it or speaking for it.
You're really stretching here, George.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Does that mean I can speak for Netflix? Lol
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)I’m a registered Democrat, but would never presume to speak for the party.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)DU is full of registered Democrats. Which ones of us speak for the Democratic Party and how do we determine whose opinion represents the party's position on any given topic.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Kahuna
(27,311 posts)StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Cha
(297,137 posts)how ever the hell they Please.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)rather than denounce Bell for expressing his personal opinion.
Cha
(297,137 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)his personal opinion?
Budi
(15,325 posts)Anyone, including Bell can say anything.
1st Ammendment right.
Doesn't matter the wording of the message, nor who it assists nor damages, right?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Any individual is free to express their opinion.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)The OP was already out there. But y'all have jumped the shark in this thread.
Budi
(15,325 posts)..even tho Bell doesn't officially represent the Democratic Party, so claiming, because its a 1st Amendment right.
Sure. Just as FOX, etc claim.
That claim which is correct, doesn't make their message true.
Examine the message being sent, not the right to say it.
I believe there's been sufficient proof presented here, that questions why Bell is promoting the slogan, DTP.
Not questioning Bell's right to say it, rather what & why a controversial & clearly damaging statement to the election of Democrats is being still being stated as a "good thing".
For who is it good exactly?
Not those close Dem races we sorely needed.
Imagine a country with NO police. But everyone can carry a weapon?
THAT is what the DTP broad messaging was saying, as many interpreted the broad slogan.
And THAT is why the slogan was a goldmine for the GOP against Democrats.
And here Bell sits STILL making the claim.
Why? Unless....
Welp, that's all I'm adding here.
It's still a slogan that blew up in Democrats faces.
But, hey. Maybe that was the intent?
Depends who promots it, as one may determine.
It's My opinion & my 1st amendment right to say it.
Later..
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)you agree or disagree or believe that what he said is somehow "controversial & clearly damaging statement to the election of Democrats" and neither can most of the people on this thread who are now insisting that his comments are sure to ensure the defeat of Democrats all across the country.
I'm looking forward to all of the many in-depth posts and pithy discussions of future comments that Bell makes in the coming months.
Budi
(15,325 posts)..1 very damaging slogan, that cost Democrat's critical elections.
Yet Bell STILL runs with that slogan..STILL running it on a Major Media Platform.
That is the subject the OP.
"Money & Media", they said
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)but now you're acting like his words hold so much influence that when he "runs with" a slogan, it is a huge problem for the Democrats.
Ridiculous.
I sincerely doubt that any of the white voters who are the object of some Democrats obsessions who are refusing to vote for Democrats because they are offended by "Defund the Police" are paying the least bit of attention to anything Kamau Bell is saying about anything - any more than the people on this thread who suddenly believe he's so hugely influential had probably ever heard about, much less paid any attention to anything he said until a few days ago.
"I was open to voting for a Democrat in a year and a half, but now that Kamau Bell has said he thinks it's a good idea to 'Defund the Police,' I'm not going to even consider it," said not one single person ever in life.
Budi
(15,325 posts)I can stick to the subject, without playing the but..but..but game to justify Bell's questionable comment that proved to damage the electing of crucial seats for Democrats.
There is nothing more to say than that.
AZProgressive
(29,322 posts)House Democrats don't have problems passing whatever they want because they don't have rules like the filibuster. Besides those candidates that lost sucked.
I don't buy into narratives especially when people are still pushing them long after November 2020.
Link to tweet
When it takes a chart and several minutes to explain your catch phrase so it doesn't freak typical folks out, you may want to consider getting a new one.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Really stupid messaging.
Stop clinging to it.
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)lapucelle
(18,247 posts)less insultingly dismissive than "pass the gravy, grandpa".
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/04/30/james-carville-wokeness-democrats-w-kamau-bell-newday-vpx.cnn
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)The question remains, though.
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)We've gone from Bell dismissing Carville's opinion to Bell dismissing an entire demographic? People really do want to be mad about shit sometimes.
And no one's told me what Bell should say instead of "defund the police."
lapucelle
(18,247 posts)Maybe the "great communicator" could try to communicate his point of disagreement rather than dismiss those he thinks are mistaken with ageist insults.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Criticizing a white person is the same as attacking all white people, each and every one, personally, to their faces
..
WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)Kahuna
(27,311 posts)take when he made that remark. I immediately sent a tweet to CNN to let them know that this long time Democrat agrees with Carville and Begala. The condescending nature of that remark and others during the interview is why a lot of people who might agree with Democrats on policy, are turned off by the smart-alecky, condescending tone.
Kahuna
(27,311 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)Kahuna
(27,311 posts)WhiskeyGrinder
(22,326 posts)And when it comes to phrases like "defund the police" or "abolish the police" (a favorite of mine), you can generally be sure that people have done their homework behind them. Not necessarily the homework you might want it to be -- such as electoral politics. But there's a lot more to politics than elections.
Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)given the existing culture? There is no truth any more. Biden to ban hamburgers after all.
And, no one is given the courtesy of the former sequence of events -
1) you say something,
2) people calmly and courteously ask you to explain before they react,
3) people like your explanation or get angry because they don't.
Instead, we have lost #2
Case in point, the Jeopardy winner who was accused of flashing a white power symbol with his hand when he explained he was just trying to hold his fingers up to symbolize three wins and abhors racism and would never even imagine using the Jeopardy platform in any political way. BUT first he was branded by a social media swarm as a racist.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)We've got to be smarter about our messaging.
Paladin
(28,252 posts)I'm tired of providing trump goons with such easy victories.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,916 posts)will mean the Republicans will say "See, they hate the police and want them gone."
Maybe we need to have a more solid message in response than backing away from everything the Republicans twist and try to use against us?
Oneironaut
(5,492 posts)Outside of Leftist spaces, “defund the police” is a non-starter and gift to Republicans. It started in far-left echo chambers, and only resonates with people who don’t need to be convinced.
Wtf is so hard with using “reform the police” instead of a phrase that invokes an apocalyptic, lawless society? We’re going to give 2022 to them on a platter if we continue to use this term.
Stop! Please, I’m begging you. Stop using this term! It doesn’t even accurately describe what we’re trying to do: shifting police resources away from militarized foot soldiers to specialists based on the situation.
Again, the people who like this slogan don’t need to be convinced. They’re already on our side. “Defund the Police” is terrible messaging that needs intervention from Democratic leaders. Please!
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)You are correct. Defund the police is one of the reasons why good Democrats lost down ballot races
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)the ones where the police shot at journalists and bona-fide observers. Perhaps if you had put yourself out there you could have had an influence on the phrasing. Reform the police is meaningless drivel since it has produced more and more out-of-control police violence for the last 50 years it has been bandied about.
Oneironaut
(5,492 posts)Protesters are not media trained or savvy. Without official channels, inarticulate messages (like “defund the police”) that only appeal to those that already agree with it are the ones that make it out.
There is no point in appealing to people already on our side. I would be as clueless as those who protested. This is something PR teams should be handling, imo.
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)aren't being shot in the face by rubber bullets from the police. You aren't going to have any influence over what is said at protests unless you have some skin in the game.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)In fact, it's even more vague and meaningless. But at least it doesn't upset or make uncomfortable those who aren't really all that interested in changing anything about the systemic racism in policing.
Oneironaut
(5,492 posts)It’s not about upsetting others or discomfort. A good protest should bring out uncomfortable ideas. The problem is how easily “defund the police” is characterized as a lunatic fringe idea, even if it isn’t.
“Reform the police” doesn’t need to be meaningless. It’s up to the organizers to have a media presence and explain to audiences outside their bubble what is being protested. Otherwise, the other side will just invent their own narrative.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)but actually means REAL reform that will affect funding (including the defunding of some police activities - i.e. shifting resources from law enforcement to other services), the same people who are either pretending they don't understand what "Defund the Police" actually means or are completely freaked out because they know what it actually means and that's the last thing they want but won't admit it, will react just as they're reacting to "Defund the Police."
And, as sure as day follows night, they'll turn "Reform the Police" into a modern day version of Vietnamese Land Reform movement.
brush
(53,764 posts)That scares the crap out of many voters. It's horrible messaging.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)When applied to a verb, "de-" can mean to lessen or reduce. It doesn't necessarily mean to get rid of completely.
But twisting ourselves into semantics is a waste of time. Some people don't like the term. Some think it makes sense. But leave it to progressives to allow ourselves to get caught up in endlessly arguing semantics, which conveniently detracts from the real issue and is just what our opponents want us to do - and they would provoke regardless WHAT we say or how we say it.
brush
(53,764 posts)In a dictionary that would be the first definition. See below.
www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › defund
Defund definition is - to withdraw funding from. Recent Examples on the Web No issue demonstrates the folly of politics as performance art more starkly than the reckless call to abolish and defund the Minneapolis Police Department.
It actually invokes thoughts of no money for police in the minds of many, which is why republicans rejoiced over that slogan coming to the fore.
I have to disagree. And we're usually on the same side of most issues.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Defund the police calls for shifting resources away from the police to other entities who can better handle certain duties and responsibilities.
"Invoking thoughts of no money for police in the minds of many" is not the fault of people who are trying to deal with the problem. And most people who think that way and don't bother making the effort to educated themselves - or even to listen to anyone about it - are usually not interested in doing anything about the problem anyway, but are looking for excuses. And even if "Defund the Police" had never been said by anyone, they would have found another reason to ignore the problem.
brush
(53,764 posts)what they say...when you have to explain it you've already losing.
You think magats and those on the fence with poor critical thinking skills don't immediately jump to no "money for police? WTF?"
IMO, of course they do.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)poor critical thinking skills. Among other things, "white magats and those on the fence with poor critical thinking skills" aren't going to pay attention to anything we say, regardless how idiot-friendly we make it.
Perhaps white people who are "sentient, thinking people who get nuance" should step up and take on some responsibility for educating their fellow, less intelligent white people who, after all, are much more likely to listen to people who look like them than to any person of color.
brush
(53,764 posts)and picking off a few voters can swing elections to us.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)subordinate our interests and concerns in order to attract the elusive white voter.
Funny how we never seem to hear people tell these white voters they need to suck it up and stop complaining about how offended they are having to hear about Black and Brown voters' interests because Democrats can't win elections without US.
brush
(53,764 posts)Sorry, I can bite my tongue. Itls still the dumbest slogan ever.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)wrong and to stop doing it rather than telling their own people fix their own shish.
caber09
(666 posts)Happy Hoosier
(7,285 posts)"if you are explaining, you are losing."
Simply put, your slogan better not imply something most people don;t support, even if in reality it's not proposing that.
A lot of people vote with their gut, not their head. You pretty much win or lose those people in BS sound-bite messaging. And THIS message is a catastrophic LOSER.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Come up with a better slogan that you think is more effective and then do everything you can can to use it to help influence the people that you know. Who knows? If it 's good enough, it may catch on to a much larger audience - just like "Defund the Police" did. But complaining about a slogan you think is bad is a waste of time and energy and only keeps the slogan you hate in the public discourse.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)I personally support reforms to the police. I worked hard and we got a good Democrat elected as District Attorney in my county two years ago and this cycle we got a good man elected as sheriff of my county. Our new DA has made a tremendous amount of difference in my county and I believe that the new Sheriff will also help. However, it is clear that we lost races that we should not have lost Defund the police was used very effectively by the GOP in down ballot races. A good number of races that Democrats should have won were lost due to this issue.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
The GOP ran a ton of ads using this issue
Out of 31 broadcast TV ads that Trump and other allied campaign groups used to attack Biden and other Democrats for being soft on law and order, 11 spots ― that aired a total of 77,647 times ― explicitly mentioned “defund the police,” according to an analysis Kantar Media/CMAG conducted for HuffPost. And out of 216 Republican broadcast TV ads in congressional races blasting Democrats, 157 spots that aired 103,000 times used the phrase.
I was disappointed to seen Susan Collins re-elected. It seems that Collins was able to use the "defund the police" issue very effectively
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Republicans lie about the positions of their opponents all the time, and misuse terminology all the time as well, hell Romney was just booed off a stage being called a fucking Communist by his own goddamned party at their own convention. Words and terms mean nothing to Republicans, whatever they can try to do to hurt anyone "on their left" from their perspective.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)The GOP was able to quote and feature members of the Squad and other prominent democrats and use these statements effectively. The GOP is planning on doing thin again in 2022 We came close to losing the House in 2020 and did not do well in state legislature races. The real world results show that you are wrong
Link to tweet
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)in a non-presidential election year, by the Democrats, the President's party historically loses ground in Congress during mid-terms. We ended up losing most of the most marginal seats because Republicans turned out for the President, or for those who didn't vote for President, they turned out for their party when they sat things out 2 years ago. I don't understand why so many are surprised by this, many of those seats were destined to only be Democratic temporarily anyways.
Instead of blaming a few congress people, perhaps blame the Democratic party apparatus itself, especially at local and state levels, that has a much larger effect than a single phrase does. During Obama's terms, the Democrats lost ground on the state and local level, thousands of positions ceded to the Republican party, and we need to regain that ground, its going to take years to play catchup. Look at how damaging that has been to us due to the Republicans being in control for not one, but now two censuses.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... phrase or slogan that would've been in on their minds that they could've thrown in because there wasn't effective positioning.
From a link talking about republican voters
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2020/11/09/defund_the_police_backfired_on_democrats_528914.html
"...SCR’s survey findings also suggest that most voters did not see a clear Democratic agenda.."
IMHO this is what lost democrats down ballot races more than a slogan, a slogan might have been the punch but not having a clear agenda allowed the punch to land with any kind of efficacy.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)The Republicans seem to have decided on internecine conflict over Trump, his legacy, and trying to pull the party together based on White Supremacy and Anti-LGBT agendas.
The Democrats seem to be doing the same, but based on things like parliamentary rules and basically hindering passing their own agenda for purposes that mystify me. Its hard to set an agenda if you can't pass it, even with a narrow majority. It gives off the appearance of incompetency.
Biden has clear agendas that are muddied by his own party. Trump was muddied to begin with, and the Republican party tried to steer him into their agendas of lower taxes and killing the welfare state. He half succeeded, then they gave up on having an agenda that's clearly articulated.
Biden should not just be the anti-Trump, he's going to have to try to go in a different direction, and help forge a clear path to a brighter future, somehow.
BannonsLiver
(16,369 posts)And anyone who doubles down on that phrase or thinks it’s a winner should have their heads examined.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)or even, for that matter, mentioned him. But now he's being held up as some kind of major pundit/influence who is proof of something the Democrats are doing wrong?
Interesting.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)tonedevil
(3,022 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)Texas is already the toughest state to vote in and a racist named Briscoe Cain (who is a truly weak attorney) is busy making Texas an even worst place to vote. Right now we may not be able to draw districts for the 2022 elections until either late summer or early fall which will be interesting in that the deadline for the Texas primary is normally early December.
No true Texan can sleep soundly with the Texas legis is in session
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)can be quite an art form. You may well be the Van Gogh of it.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)button issue), anyway, I couldn't believe a Black guy, which I am, was still defending the dumbest slogan ever invented. (such a gift to the GOP) and on national TV seen my who knows how many voters.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)and some Black people don't think "Defund the Police" is "the dumbest slogan ever invented."
brush
(53,764 posts)It's an election loser.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Last edited Sun May 2, 2021, 10:36 AM - Edit history (1)
But I also don't think that it is the cause of or signals the end of the Democratic Party.
Like many things today, it was latched onto by the right to try to turn Democrats into something scary and crazy. If they didn't have "Defund the Police," they would have used something else. It's what they do.
And what we always do is jump into their rabbit holes, beating ourselves up over terminology, fighting with each other about saying it, not saying, and whose fault it is that it supposedly caused us damage - all the while, completely over-estimating and over-reacting to any possible problem it caused us as if, absent that one phrase, it would have been all ponies, daisies and sunshine for us.
Remember the fights over the term "liberal"? And how liberals fell all over themselves trying to prove we're not REALLY liberal to the point that renamed ourselves progressives - all because Republicans convinced us that "liberal" is a bad word and would lose us votes and if we just stopped calling ourselves that, the elusive white working class would come flocking to us. Same thing.
And as we do this, we convince ourselves that if only no one had ever said "Defund the Police," white voters would have voted for Decmocrats in much larger numbers - all because some of them told pollsters that's the reason they didn't vote for Democrats - when you cannot convince me that anything more than handful of halfway sentient voters said, "I was going to vote for Jaime Harrison instead of Lindsay Graham, but then someone I never heard of who wasn't running for office and isn't in office in another state said 'Defund the Police,' so I decided there's no way I could vote for Jaime Harrison after that and I voted to reelect Lindsay Graham." I have no doubt that some people CLAIM that's why they didn't vote for Democrats, but most of these people were going to vote for Trump and his foot soldiers no matter what but they're using "Defund the Police" as an excuse - not only because it makes them seem like they have a reason for voting the way they did aside from being an idiot or a racist or both AND because it's so much fun watching Democrats scrap it out with each other about whose fault it is that something as obscure and meaningless as one slogan is somehow such a big deal.
And then the right wing laughs and laughs watching Democrats chasing our tails trying to lick off the Tabasco sauce they sprinkled on it.
So, no - I don't think "Defund the Police" is a great slogan. But I also don't think it's an "election loser" either. It's a distraction that Republicans created and, just like we usually do, we fell for it big time. And are still doing their work for them.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)IMO it was the best gift to the GOP in a long time. We nearly lost the 2018 blue wave advantage in the House, didn't win Senate races expected and in state races, forget about it.
It scared off a lot of voters, undecideds and some Dems too. and in close races, they decide who wins.
Anyway, I hope we're past that for 2022.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Blaming it on "Defund the Police" is a lazy excuse.
You can claim otherwise all you want, but I don't believe that the voters who are claiming they didn't vote for Democrats because of "Defund the Police" any further than I can throw them. I believe it's an excuse, one of the many in a long line of excuses these voters always give for not voting for Democrats and for voting for backward thinking Republicans. And every time they come up with a new excuse, some Democrats get themselves all twisted around their axles insisting trying to shut other Democrats up.
The same think happened in 2018 - people forget how many Democrats insisted that Democrats who loudly pushed for impeachment nearly lost the election because voters weren't interested in impeachment but wanted to hear about healthcare and other policy solutions.
We heard it in 2016 when people claimed that Hillary didn't do enough to reach out to the white working class voters in Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania.
This is the same old same old.
And one thing that also repeats itself is that this argument that Democrats are sending the wrong message ALWAYS is about sending the wrong message to this same group of white voters who claim that something about the Democrats rubs them the wrong way - be it "Defund the Police" or "Black Lives Matter"
people forget that that was one of the cryponite phrases before they found a new phrase to blame) or there's just something about Hillary they didn't like, etc. But there never seems to be ANY concern AT ALL about whether any approach of the Democrats might be off-putting to Black and Brown voters.
So, for example, when it was claimed that Hillary lost support of many of the Black and Brown voters who voted for Obama, what was the solution? Run after more white voters to make up the slack. We didn't have these endless debates about whether the Democrats over-the-top outreach to white voters was turning off Black and Brown voters or how the Democrats need to do a better job communicating to Black and Brown voters so that we will turn out in Obama-like numbers. No - in fact, not only was there no constant debate about how to make us happy, we were partially BLAMED for the outcome and when anyone tried to talk about stepping up outreach to us, they were shouted down with cries of "STOP PLAYING IDENTITY POLITICS! YOU'LL DRIVE AWAY THE WHITE PEOPLE WE'RE TRYING TO ATTRACT!!!"
So, I just don't buy this "Defund the Police" is the reason we're not doing better. This is a false construct ginned up by Republicans and that too many Democrats are lapping up like crazy instead of figuring out how to not let Republicans drag us around by the nose.
It's ridiculous in my view.
brush
(53,764 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... that slogan still in the ether and had clear messaging but democrats who didn't have clear messaging didn't win.
Blaming a slogan of the oppressed is counterproductive at best.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... for unclear message which the exit pollster suggest was the bigger of democrats issues here.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2020/11/17/new-post-election-poll-reveals-how-democrats-leftward-movement-cost-the-party-in-the-2020-election/?sh=3dd89973675f
SCR’s survey findings also suggest that most voters did not see a clear Democratic agenda;
An unclear message allows for dtp to be ascribed to candidates that aren't even running on it but a clear message like the one Warnock and Osoff had made no room for it
Cha
(297,137 posts)he's actually Won Elections.. which is the whole Big Picture GOAL here.
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)and it being seen as a huge boogeyman responsible for myriad ills of the Democratic Party across the country.
I think it's a bad slogan. I also don't think it's a big deal and the only reason it's being treated as such is because Democrats have, once again, fallen into the trap Republicans set for us.
Cha
(297,137 posts)"I do not want to defund the police. And Kelly Loeffler knows it. But she keeps saying this because she wants to distract from her own record."
https://www.savannahnow.com/story/news/2020/12/07/georgia-senate-debate-kelly-loeffler-raphael-warnock-defunding-police-black-lives-matter/3859198001/
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...people caterwauling about the phrase, advocating genuflecting to republicans over it, aren't helping Democrats politically.
But what's worse is the conscious effort to obscure what advocates are actually saying, what they actually represent. It seems deliberate, to me.
Even when prompted to acknowledge what these Democrats are actually advocating, there's a curious deflection away from the substance and specifics of the policies they're fighting for.
These are Democratic communities being lectured down to by people who don't live there. Critics of the phrase should be challenged to state the details of these policies, or just admit they're not really supporting these communities with their petty, paternalistic, intimidated politics over a phrase - which, incidentally, mirrors the effort being put forward by the opposition to misrepresent the Democratic initiatives.
When are these critics going to show more solidarity with these communities than they are with republican opposition to this phrase?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)"I fully support what you're advocating for, but you're saying it all wrong and my fellow white people (who have never supported you anyway, no matter what you say or don't say, but that's neither here nor there) don't like it. You need to come up with a better way to speak to them they'll pay attention to you and if you get it right, you will win the over. But if you don't, it will be your fault that they don't vote Democratic. Now, go come up with a better way to communicate to my fellow white people. In the meantime, I'll just sit here with them chatting happily about family, talking sports, and exchanging photos of our pets because I have no responsibility in any of this other than to tell you that you're doing it all wrong."
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...all of this talk about how a phrase defeats Democrats, while tearing down this fellow Democrat for speaking his mind.
No visible support for this Democrat or his community, only this petty scorn borne out of republican demagoguery.
This is supposed to be smart politics?
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)Like the swarms of people defending James Carville for "speaking hard truths" to people who care about "wokeness" - while never, ever, ever, "speaking hard truths" to the white voters who continue to vote Republican and refuse to listen to or consider the views or concerns of people of color.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...revealed as nothing more than an association of bigots, racists, and crooks.
But some continue to give fealty to their complaints, professing concern for some political consequence from our party's progressivism, over and above care for the needs and concerns of our own voters.
It's part and parcel of the limiting effect that 'moderate' politics advocates under the guise of pragmatism. A policy of demanding less creates the landscape and groundwork for less change. That's a political strategy the opposition will always encourage from Democrats.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... now has to choose a huge excuse to deflect from what has to be done.
It seems like the ingroup has choosing the "how they protest" (kneeling, words, slogans) as the means for the distraction away from the real issue of what to do with a police force infiltrated by white supremacist as pointed at in the 2009 FBI report.
Cha
(297,137 posts)Can you imagine Rev Warnock having to Fight OFF this Smear in Georgia in 2022?!!!
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Cha
(297,137 posts)"I do not want to defund the police. And Kelly Loeffler knows it. But she keeps saying this because she wants to distract from her own record."
https://www.savannahnow.com/story/news/2020/12/07/georgia-senate-debate-kelly-loeffler-raphael-warnock-defunding-police-black-lives-matter/3859198001/
Good on Sen Warnock for fending OFF the attacks from Loeffler.. It's still a gift to the gop.. Sara Gideon wasn't so fortunate.
Link to tweet
Oh and Mahalo for letting me know!
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... but Warnock and Osoff won with it out in the ether.
Why?
Because Warnock and Osoff run campaigns where they effectively counter punched or defined their opponent first and not set back and let the kGQP define them with a slogan they didn't even ascribe to.
That's crazy we're blaming bad campaigning (effective counterpunching) on a slogan
We can't fix our messaging issues if we keep claiming its someone else's fault our poor messaging / feedback infrastructure relative to reps isn't working.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)The GOP was happy to take quotes or video of members of the squad and other prominent progressive types and use these statements in these ads. That is what is done in the politics. Here are some of the ads used in 2020
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
You accusations that the good democrats who lost in 2020 deserved to lose and that these democrats were bad democrats is really sad and disgusting. Again, I am friends with two state house candidates who lost and the GOP ran ads accusing all Democrats of being socialists and supporting defund the police.
There is great exit polling that shows that these ads were effective https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15391238 and https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15391364
The GOP will be using the same stunt again in 2022 unless we can shut the squad up and stop defending this ignorant slogan.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)"... SCR’s survey findings also suggest that most voters did not see a clear Democratic agenda;..."
BOOM !!
So when voters don't see a clear agenda then shit like "Biden hates beef" or "defund the police" or "Democrats or socialist" ... WORK !!!
A slogan from the oppressed didn't allow for the kGQP to define democrats !!
****************IT WAS AN UNCLEAR AGENDA !!*****************
This is from the link ... YOU ... provided !!!
Here ... I'll take your point if you can relate mine.
You're claiming dtp lost us the down ballot races ...
and
... I'm claiming it wasn't dtp it was the weak message and counter punch that allowed for dtp to fit IN !!
If it wasn't dtp then it would've been ".. Biden hates beef" or "democrats are socialist" or "LetMyPeopleVote has ten toes" or some other dumb shit.
Weak promoted agendas allow candidates to be defined by any slogan ...PERIOD ... and if it was dtp it would've been something else.
DTP might have been a sharp rock but the fact that other people won races where they were defining their opponent or effectively counter punching shows that rock wasn't that sharp enough for that many down ballots to lose.
What say you? ... and can you do such without being unprogressively condescending?"
thx in advance
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)I am amused that you admit that exit polling on this issue exists and that such polling show that defund the police hurt real Democrats and accounted for the reason why Democrats lost so many down ballot races that they should had won. You kept telling falsehoods about the polling on defund the police and I am glad that you have had to admit that your claims were false. The polling (both exit and other polling) clearly show that defund the police is a stupid slogan that hurt down ballot candidates in the real world.
I also enjoy the fact that you freely admit that you do not understand how campaigns work. I have been active in party politics for a long time and I have helped recruit candidates and worked on campaigns. I saw what happened in 2020 up close including having to watch a number of GOP ads using members of the Squad talking about Defund the Police. These ads were effective because they feature members of the squad who the GOP claimed that the official policy of the party was defund the police. You are still defending this ignorant policy despite the fact that the polling shows that it hurt down ballot candidates.
Again, your attacks on good and real Democrats who lost in 2020 due to ads featuring members of the Squad promoting defund the police is really disgusting and sad. Exit polls and other polling confirmed the fact that defund the police hurt down ballot Democrats and both President Obama and President Biden agree.
Why is it important to you to attack good Democrats who lost in 2002 due to the defund the police issue? Do you hate real Democrats who do not embrace unpopular and stupid ideas like defund the police? The squad can only win races in deeply blue districts and the stupid concepts that work in the deep blue districts that are represented by members of the squad are poison in the rest of the country.
To tie this back to the comments from James Carville, it is clear that dumb slogans like defund the police hurt in 2020
Link to tweet
Link to tweet
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)I answered your question. I am sorry that you did not understand my answer but I am not surprised. The only reason why some felt that there was a confusing Democratic message was because it was easy for the GOP to take rather sad but ignorant statements from the Squad and other prominent progressive types and to argue that these persons are speaking for the party. That is why there was confusion as to the Democratic platform platform. If you had read and understood the articles posted, this would have been clear to you.
There is clear polling (both exit and other polls) that show that defund the police hurt Democratic candidates in 2020. There is even more polls that I did not post but are easy to find. This is not a close call and the fact you do not understand these polls is sad.
Luckily Joe and the DNC will be calling the shots and the party will make clear that defund the police is an ignorant and wrong slogan that does not reflect the party. This may be a tough mid term and we really do not need to have deal with bogus and ignorant slogans like Defund the Police. It will be sad if the GOP is able to use dumb statements from the Squad or other progressive types to take control of the House or Senate in the mid terms.
Your attacks on good Democratic candidates who ran in 2002 and lost due due to the ignorant Defund the Police slogan are truly sad and disgusting. The reason for any confusion as to Democratic platform lies at the fact that the Squad and other progressives insisted on pushing the ignorant Defund the Police slogan and their efforts cause any confusion. Attacking these good Democrats and blaming these good candidates for losing is truly wrong and sad.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... the level of ad homs via condescension is getting silly.
Shit, you've done everything but say poopy head ... damn yo, get another line.
The SCR exit poll... DOES NOT ... show dtp being a top reason democratic candidates lost. I already knew it wasn't a popular slogan but ... THERE ARE NO POLLS ... showing dtp is the top reason why the down ballot democratic candidates lost against republican candidates.
"it hurt us" is not relevant to my question, shit ... an unclear agenda "hurt us..." more than a slogan few to no democrats ran on.
You're also avoiding addressing the issue I raised from your own link saying most voters felt democrats had an unclear agenda and that being a bigger factor in losses than a slogan few to no democrats running never ascribed to.
There are already people pointing out blaming a slogan of the oppressed that few to no one ran on as a reason races were lost is counter productive at best.
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)I read the poll and the key thing is that I actually understood the material. Did you even read the article? I am amused that you are misquoting the article by leaving out a key passage. Here is the passage that you clearly did not understand
Here is the link and relevant passage that show that it was the lack of a clear message was due to the Democratic Party's "associations with far-left attitudes and movements—in particular, the movement to defund the police."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2020/11/17/new-post-election-poll-reveals-how-democrats-leftward-movement-cost-the-party-in-the-2020-election/?sh=403ab6b4675f
Though party identification in both SCR’s survey and in national exit polls are close to evenly split, the ideological balance of the electorate tilts conservative. Indeed, a plurality (37%) of respondents in SCR’s survey self-identified as conservative, and a similar share considered themselves to be moderate (36%). Yet, less than one-quarter (24%) self-identified as liberal.
Our survey also found that respondents strongly preferred that the candidates who were elected this year pursue right-leaning policies (45%), rather than left-leaning policies (31%) once they take office.
These findings may be unsurprising, given the Democrats’ disappointing election performance, notwithstanding Joe Biden’s likely victory. Contrary to pre-election predictions, which showed a demonstrable Democratic advantage, the Senate is likely to remain evenly divided with perhaps a narrow Republican advantage, and perhaps with no party advantage. Further, the Democrats also lost several seats in the House, including seats that were thought to be secure.
The last sentence is important. Democrats lost a number of seats because of left wing polices such as the rather ignorant Defund the Police slogan pushed by the Squad and progressives. Read the material. Your characterization of this polling is simply false.
You either did not read the article or you did not understand this article. Again, here is a key passage that you are ignoring or do not understand
By a 12-point margin, 35% to 23%, respondents said that the movements across the country to defund the police made them less likely to vote for Democrats. Likewise, by a 12-point margin, 32% to 20%, respondents also said that these movements made them more likely to vote for Republicans.
Read the material. The fact that the Squad and progressives pushed rather stupid policies such as defund the police is what hurt the Democrats. The unclear agenda was due to the squad and the progressive types pushing defund the police.
Defund the Police is a stupid policy that hurt us. I saw ads using this theme and socialism used in Texas and the socialism attacks evidently worked very well in Florida where Joe should had have a chance due to trump's poor treatment of Puerto Rico.
In Texas we have looked at why trump did better with Hispanic voters and according to the Continuing Legal Education courses put on by the Harris County Democratic Lawyers Association and the Texas Democratic Lawyers Association (witht the state party numbers cruncher) I have also attended trump was benefited with Hispanic voters due to law and order/defund the police issues and claims of socialism.
I have been working hard in the real world to turn Texas blue. We went from 49 Democratic seats in the Texas house after the 2010 elections (out of a total of 150 seats) to having a good chance of flipping the Texas state house. It hurt like hell to see the GOP retain control of the house due to issues like defund the police. There were a number of seats where Beto beat Carnival Cruz in 2018 that the party hoped to pick up. Now, I and other Texas Democratic lawyers are gearing up to fight bad redistricting maps and GOP voter suppression law
You really should consider reading all of the article. Misquoting an article is not a good idea when dealing with someone who actually read the article
LetMyPeopleVote
(145,129 posts)Did you read this article? If so, why are you making very deceptive and misleading statements about this article or poll. If you pulled this in a legal brief you would be sanctioned for attempting to mislead the court
Here is the link to the article that you are misquoting https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2020/11/17/new-post-election-poll-reveals-how-democrats-leftward-movement-cost-the-party-in-the-2020-election/?sh=403ab6b4675f This article does not support your claims and i fact makes clear that it was the squad and progressives who are the cause of problem. Voters were upset due to the "party’s associations with far-left attitudes and movements—in particular, the movement to defund the police."
The actual quote that you took out of context is the following:
By a 12-point margin, 35% to 23%, respondents said that the movements across the country to defund the police made them less likely to vote for Democrats. Likewise, by a 12-point margin, 32% to 20%, respondents also said that these movements made them more likely to vote for Republicans.
Again, you misquoted the article that I posted.
Cha
(297,137 posts)Thank you, President Obama!
Cha
(297,137 posts)the Police".. it's a Fucking Losing Strategy.
We want to WIN.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts)... agenda allowed for dtp to be ascribed to people who weren't even running on it.
That's not a slogan of the oppressed fault for down ballot losses that's an unclear agenda.
as point out here - in forbes article
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dougschoen/2020/11/17/new-post-election-poll-reveals-how-democrats-leftward-movement-cost-the-party-in-the-2020-election/?sh=3dd89973675f
SCR’s survey findings also suggest that most voters did not see a clear Democratic agenda;
I'll concede republicans used dtp to beat up on dems that didn't have a clear agenda but those who DID have a clear agenda Warnock and Osoff won hands down.
Bottom line I don't see how blaming a slogan of the oppressed, no matter how bad or good said slogan might be, on an unclear agenda helps us win next time.
your take?
tia
Arazi
(6,829 posts)Oops, yes actually they won even with DTP and despite a massive amount of $$ poured into the races.
Ffs, it's not the worst thing that's been hung out there that Dems have to fight against. And there's now evidence Dems can win despite it.
This is just another attempt to smear black slogans imo. Their concerns are never done "right", their protests are "tone deaf", or done wrong. Get over it and let's find ways to make this work FOR us. Virtually every one who isn't a fucking racist can see the police are fucked up
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)I can't help but notice that this degree of angst, over-analysis, hand-wringing and instructions to say it differently only seem to be injected into discussion when it comes to responding to phraseology coined by or used by people of color to describe our situation or efforts to address our concerns: So "woke," "Black Lives Matter," and "Defund the Police" are turned into fodder for excuses about why some white people continue to ignore our issues and demands - while white folk continue to be free to express themselves and their concerns without this kind of second-guessing.
Arazi
(6,829 posts)The two new Dem Senators from Georgia prove that we can win with this.
It's time we own "Defund The Police". Define it. Just like "Black Lives Matter" we shouldn't be afraid of our allies rallying cries.
I'm not afraid to speak this truth and it's disheartening to see so many afraid to throw down this gauntlet
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)It's a distraction. And easier to blame us for not communicating the message the way they think it should be communicated than to admit they aren't interested in what we have to say, regardless how we say it.
uponit7771
(90,335 posts).. like exit polling or the like they come back with derision, polling of the slogan or some other shit that is less than an exit poll saying people didn't vote dem because of dtp.
I understand there are people we respect that say dtp is the reason we lost down ballot races, I'd like to see evidence of that vs a claim.
and lets say it was a factor in losing seats (using evidence like exit polling etc)
then democrats who didn't run on it as part of their platform shouldn't run bad messaging campaigns !!
It's bad campaigning to allow the kGQP to define a candidate first !! Counter punching in politics is explaining and that's bad enough and if they didn't even run on the issue WTF was they doing when the kGQP said they were?!
brush
(53,764 posts)If you know anything about the 2020 race we were supposed to win more seats in the House and Senate. We lost seats in the House and didn't gain the seats we thought we would in the Senate from republicans using that term against Dem candidates. See post 32, 52 and 87 for post-election analysis polls.
We have to be smarter as races are so close. If not for Stacey Abrams and her team in Georgia trump would've won again and we'd all be in deep shit again.
Now seriously, do you really thing that slogan is good messaging to defend? I'm a Black man and I know we can do better than that.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...the handwringing over the phrase, without bothering to give context to the person's position, is not only deepening the fake controversy, it's creating its own wedge against the communities which agree with the sentiment, mainly black majority communities subjected to a glut of abusive police on their streets threatening them and their families.
But, go on and tell us about the damage a slogan is doing. Pathetic.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)When they do it they are just speaking hard truths that need to be heard.
But when people of color criticize what a white person says, we're being divisive, creating wedges, accusing every single white person in America of being racist, etc.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...to the advancement of our very party, both in the presidential election and the national legislature.
This, despite whatever losses were incurred.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)We stand in line for hours, face down intimidation and threats of violence, and jump through all manner of constantly moving hoops that require us to do everything but count the number of jellybeans in a jar. We do it without whining. We do it even when we're not "inspired" by candidates or they haven't catered to our every whim and scratched every itch. We don't demand that other Democrats say only what we want to hear and if they say anything that might offend us (which they often do) or that we just don't agree with or understand, we don't threaten to walk away and not vote.
And yet, we're supposed to continue tolerating being told that we need to hold our tongues or change our words or not be too loud or too visible or too angry or too impatient, lest a group of fickle, confused, unsupportive white people who are begged, pursued, coddled and appealed to year after year decide AGAIN not to vote for Democrats because we haven't enough to "earn" their support. Because, we're told, even after we consistently prove that it was our hard-cast vote that regularly drags Democrats across the finish line, that those white voters are the Democrats' only hope for winning elections.
Screw that.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...screw that.
brush
(53,764 posts)Last edited Sun May 2, 2021, 08:07 PM - Edit history (1)
to different social agencies would help to decrease rogue/killer cop contact with the public. I repeat, the chart showed how "reallocating" police funds would help. Got that? The video illustrated "reallocating" then he proceeded to defend the term "defund the police" because once you explain it to people...
See what I mean? Why show reallocate examples then defend defund? We have to be smarter. I'm Black and I know what a gift to republicans the slogan is.
And IMO those who don't see that...well you used the word pathetic...they are the pathetic ones as it's a vote loser for Democratic candidates. The many House seats we lost to republicans using it against their Dem opponents shows that.
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...but choose to denigrate him, right along with this republican demagoguery over the phrase.
You're simply blind to your own aquiescence to the republican smear. How hard is it to just stop bashing people for using the word 'defund?' No one is making you stir up nonsense against this Democrat. But you're more concerned with this republican canard than you are with this fellow's actual policy.
It's insidious how some critics in the Democratic party have essentially co-opted the republican attack, complaining that the person using the phrase is more responsible than their own flogging of this phony concern..
brush
(53,764 posts)In your zeal to insult me you continue to miss the point. "Defund the police" is a plum gift to the GOP and they used it very effectively for negative ads and messaging against us in the 2020 campaign. That's the point and it still being hyped by a high-profile progressive on a national TV platform, giving republicans even more juice, is just disappointing.
A question to you? Do you think "defund the police" which evokes in many minds, no police, is a good slogan, or is something like "reallocate police funds", or an even more to the point message like "stop killer cops" would've hurt us less in the 2020 races?
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...but this counterproductive exercise is perpetually raised as some sort of political wisdom.
The scolding is what perpetuates the republican canard. It's that simple.
brush
(53,764 posts)Last edited Sun May 2, 2021, 09:55 PM - Edit history (1)
elections they weren't expected to before they hung "defund the police" around the necks of their Democratic opponents.
Such a brilliant observation on your part. 
bigtree
(85,986 posts)...no one in our party should assume responsibility for that idiocy.
It should occur to you that most of the people advocating 'defund' are private citizens entitled to their opinion and not responsible for how someone defends their candidacy against it.
Pols and others with concerns need to find ways to respond to these private citizens advocating defunding police, who are primarily Democratic, with more than scorn over the way someone demagogued them to get elected. That's on politicians, not people exasperated with abusive police forces.
dilby
(2,273 posts)Maybe when you are as upset about dead citizens as you are the term, “Defunds the Police” you will understand what it means. And I am quite frankly tired of staying quiet about institutional racism in this country in the hopes that it wins elections. Rodney King should have been the last time we talked about racism in Law Enforcement, but we stayed quiet, we won elections and look where we are today.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)We NEVER hear the people who complain about this offer even a fraction of pushback against the fragile white voters they're always trying to protect and attract.
brush
(53,764 posts)such plum slogan to run negative ads with. That slogan grew out of frustration at protests marches against killer cops and it just took off and republicans used it as a scare tactic against our candidates...and it worked in many races.
IMO for high-profile progressives defending such a scary slogan is scary in itself. Defund the police evokes a lawless society with no order, no one to stop real criminals. We do need good police, just as we need to weed out the bad, killer cops.
Defending that phrase is just not smart.
Cha
(297,137 posts)"I do not want to defund the police. And Kelly Loeffler knows it. But she keeps saying this because she wants to distract from her own record."
https://www.savannahnow.com/story/news/2020/12/07/georgia-senate-debate-kelly-loeffler-raphael-warnock-defunding-police-black-lives-matter/3859198001/
We're All UPSET & heartbroken about the killings of Black People by the police But if we don't WIN We Can't do Anything.
Playing the "we aren't upset enough.." card isn't working.
bullwinkle428
(20,629 posts)I'm a big fan! 
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I don't know of one Democratic political candidate or campaign that ran on or endorsed "defund the police." This is a phrase pushed by a handful of private citizens and activists, most of whom have no official affiliation with the Democratic Party, other than possibly being among the millions of other members who possess a dizzying array of varying opinions on all types of topics.
So what if the Republicans jumped on this particular phrase and ran with it and used it in their campaign ads? They do that ALL the time with all kinds of things. Because they lie and mislead. If "defund the police" had never been uttered, they'd use something else. In fact they did use other things. Plenty of them. That's what they do.
And one of the reasons they do it is because they know, by virtue of the fact we've proven it to them over and over again, that we will jump on their feigned outrage, adopt it as our own, and then leverage that outrage to THEIR advantage instead of either smacking it down or
depriving it of oxygen altogether.
Our obsession with beating Democrats about the head over a slogan that our party has neither adopted not utilized would be amusing if it weren't so stupid and harmful. Democrats have an alarming and troubling tendency to eagerly grab the club that Republicans carved out and then use it to smash our own selves upside out own heads. Meanwhile Republicans are probably laughing their asses off watching us beat ourselves bloody.
It's a SLOGAN, people. And not even an official one. We don't have control over what people out in the world say and if we think they said something stupid and Republicans are trying to use it against us, we certainly shouldn't help them amplify it far beyond anything they could have ever done.
Let's stop making fools of ourselves fighting over three damned words and focus on our own policies and our own messaging. If you think "defund the police" is a bad slogan, fine. Stop whining about it and demanding that people you have no control over stop saying it and come up with a better one - one that will resonate better with people you think are too stupid to understand what "defund the police" means but will vote for Democrats if only they hear better slogans. And then do everything you can to advance that message instead of repeating "Defund the police is bad message!!! Defund the police is bad message!!! Defund the police is bad message!!!" over and over and over and over.
Damn, y'all. Get a grip.
brush
(53,764 posts)Last edited Mon May 3, 2021, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)
with a national TV platform to double down on DTP as IMO it's a huge vote loser. Republicans will, as you say, always come up with something but this was the biggest gift they've had besides the socialism bogeyman to scare voters. And they ran with it and narrowed our House margin significantly and stymied what we thought was going to be pick-ups in the Senate.
DTP needs to dead and buried but there are even some advocates of it here on DU, which is puzzling to me.
I say we should take a page out the republican playbook and tie the "insurrectionist party" brand around republican candidates all over the nation–24-7, over and over and over.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)No one one the fence who is would decide not to vote for Democrats because someone on CNN defended "Defund the Police" is likely watching Kamau Bell on CNN.
If you want DTP dead and buried, stop talking about it! If other people bring it up, ignore them. And, as suggested, come up with something else to replace it instead of obsessing over and repeating and giving oxygen to a phrase you claim is toxic.
brush
(53,764 posts)than Bell's show on CNN don't you think? And since it's my OP I respond to posters.
And speaking of responding, what's your opinion of turning the tables on republican candidates by tying the "insurrectionist party" label around the necks of republican candidates, just as they did with DTP to our candidates?
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)and is not an official or spokesman for the Democratic Party. He can express his personal opinion. If you disagree with his opinion fine, post your disagreement of his opinion. But to criticize him for expressing it is over the line.
brush
(53,764 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)ChrisF1961
(457 posts)always works for me.
ChrisF1961
(457 posts)Thank you.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,916 posts)would still point and tell their base that Dems hate the police.
How about we just keep pushing the message that we shouldn't be militarizing the police and that there are better people to handle over 75% of what police do now and not get sucked into our shell because the Republicans might complain and your average joe might not like the message.
StarfishSaver
(18,486 posts)brush
(53,764 posts)come the next election? We should never let voters forget which party invaded the nation's capitol in an attempted coup.
Bettie
(16,089 posts)here in Iowa 1.
Two things:
1. Every idiot with a pulse came out to vote for their Orange Leader.
2. Our congresswoman didn't take a stand on anything. Ever. She was fine, but she just said "I'll work with anyone!"
I also think that our party was hurt by the lack of canvassing. We didn't do it, well, because we were in the midst of a global pandemic. Republicans don't give a single rat's backside about it, so they did it a lot. It made a difference.
