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Fri May 7, 2021, 08:28 AM

Wow, the Bushes and Cheneys Have Become the "Reasonable Right

Wow, the Bushes and Cheneys Have Become the “Reasonable Right”
This does not bode well for the GOP nor for America
https://juliovincent.medium.com/wow-the-bushes-and-cheneys-have-become-the-reasonable-right-b962404e5a28

Oh, now we like Dubya? And the Cheneys? How quickly we forget the past. The media has held both families up this week as respectable old-guard traditionalists — masked and responsible — celebrating their outspoken defenses of democracy against the modern GOP crazies: Trump, Boebert, Cruz, Taylor Green, and the rest. I am not the first one to say it, by any means, but I may be the first one to say it on your screen today, my friends. I call bullshit. This is dangerous. These people are just an inch north of crazy themselves. They’re also responsible for getting us here.

snip//

Let us not forget, though, that George Bush left the country on the verge of collapse in 2009. The economy was in tatters. No one went to jail. The financial crisis was not just a problem on paper. People’s retirement accounts were nearly wiped out. Families lost their homes, their livelihoods. There was great suffering in this country. This was after he spent his presidency lying to the American people, waging an illegitimate war in the name of 9/11, draining the country’s coffers, and demonizing gays and lesbians. Most of which was architected by Dr. Evil himself, Dick Cheney.

snip//

Same for Liz. Liz Cheney, the third-ranking Republican in the House of Representatives, who is about to be ousted from her leadership role in the party, has consistently held that Trump crossed a line by inciting the Capitol Riot, and by trumpeting The Big Lie. I agree. That line is dark and clear, and crossing it is egregious. What we all saw, with our own eyes, on video on January 6, was a disgusting spectacle. But the Cheneys have crossed many a line in the last 20 years in this country. They moved the line.

Not only was Dick architecting and doctoring (see above), but Liz, herself, threw her own sister under the bus during the marriage equality debates, excusing her lack of support for her sister’s marriage as simply a “disagreement” — as if policy doesn’t have real-world effects on people’s lives. In 2009, she was such a strong advocate for torture, that it is one reason she became a rising star in the party. She may be the more approachable Cheney, but she is a Cheney nonetheless.

I am sure Mitt is happy to have company on the Reasonable Right as the Bushes and the Cheneys try to hold the center and prevent the party from freefall. (Aren’t we kind of there already?) But let’s not — in conversation, in the media, online, and elsewhere — hold these people up as heroes. They may be speaking out now to save their party, but if we excuse them their own serious offenses, we’ll be looking at a post-pandemic political field where Democrats and Republicans are suddenly on the same moral plane. The Bushes and the Cheneys watered the soil in which Donald Trump and his new brand of extremism have grown. We may forgive, but we ought not forget.

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Reply Wow, the Bushes and Cheneys Have Become the "Reasonable Right (Original post)
dajoki May 7 OP
Bettie May 7 #1
Irish_Dem May 7 #4
hlthe2b May 7 #2
Act_of_Reparation May 7 #5
hlthe2b May 7 #7
Act_of_Reparation May 7 #9
hlthe2b May 7 #11
MatthewG. May 7 #3
Claustrum May 7 #6
MatthewG. May 7 #8
Claustrum May 7 #10
treestar May 8 #12

Response to dajoki (Original post)

Fri May 7, 2021, 08:35 AM

1. And with that the Overton window slides

a little farther to the right.

None of it is reasonable, the only real difference is that Liz Cheney admitted that the election was legitimate and doesn't fully support insurrection.

That isn't "Reasonable" at all. She's still an extremist and it is a huge mistake to forget that.

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Response to Bettie (Reply #1)

Fri May 7, 2021, 09:59 AM

4. Exactly. The Cheneys are quite dangerous.

And crazy. We cannot let the fake calm reasonable exterior fool us.

Trump was stupid and evil.
The Cheneys are smart and evil.

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Response to dajoki (Original post)

Fri May 7, 2021, 08:39 AM

2. I don't think most (over a certain age) have forgotten ANYTHING.

I do believe in the historical tenets of smart strategy--whether in a military or political context has included PICKING your opponents. In this case, I'd prefer my political opposition to be a sane, NON-insurrectionist/Seditionist opponent bent on destroying democracy and the country at large.

Does anyone REALLY think FDR (or Churchill) WANTED to work with Joseph Stalin? Really?

Picking the less destructive option for an ally--however transitory and temporary-- is not tantamount to forgetting or creating an alternative reality. At least if we are SMART.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #2)

Fri May 7, 2021, 10:13 AM

5. Yeah, ok.

The chief difference here is Stalin was in a good position to win, while the Bushes and Cheneys aren't leading anything but jack and shit... and jack just left town.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #5)

Fri May 7, 2021, 10:15 AM

7. what a leap that is...



I guess my assumption that Dems know and benefit from more knowledge of history is misplaced.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #7)

Fri May 7, 2021, 10:32 AM

9. Is it?

The overwhelming majority of Republicans supported Donald Trump. The overwhelming majority believe Joe Biden stole the election. The mainstream Republican voter has already rebuked the Bushes and is now working harder than a cat trying to buy a turd on a marble floor to rid themselves of Liz Cheney. The GOP is a self-radicalizing society where one's status is determined by their purity, and that status can change dramatically with the slightest step. No one gives a shit that fifteen years ago they were suckling like mewling babes at the teat of the Bush administration. They had no particular affection for the man then, and they don't now. All they care about is pwning the libs.

No way in hell are any Democrats so stupid as to think befriending the Bushes and the Cheneys will push confer some significant political advantage. They talk nice about Bush and Cheney because decorum demands it, and unlike the Republicans, the Democrats tend to respect decorum.

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Response to Act_of_Reparation (Reply #9)

Fri May 7, 2021, 10:37 AM

11. It is clear you have no understanding of the point I am making... nor the danger posed

by a fascist political party totally uncontained. Gawd help us all if others fail to learn from history because, yeah we ARE destined to repeat it. Seems just fine with you as long as you aren't asked to be pragmatic for even a second. All about venting your spleen for immediate gratification, I guess, with no constraints nor concern for the future. We don't always get to pick our enemies, but when they are divided, we can weaken one faction and thereby ensure the worst does not prevail. Just as with Stalin, yes.

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Response to dajoki (Original post)

Fri May 7, 2021, 09:18 AM

3. Bush may have been a worse President than Trump.

Bush may actually have been a worse President than Trump, at least if measured by the impact of his policies on the planet as a whole. (Admittedly, he had twice as many years in office to screw things up.)

The Gulf War was a colossal, totally predictable logistical and moral disaster at multiple levels, a mess which led to massive loss of civilian life and contributed to the ongoing miseries of the Middle East. I can’t think of a worse policy decision by a President in my lifetime. (I was born as the Vietnam War ended, so if we went back far enough, entering that war might have been a worse decision.)

Trump’s handling of Covid was a huge mess, and did contribute to loss of life, but I don’t see how we wouldn’t have had major suffering under any Administration. He worsened a bad situation, but he didn’t actually create the situation.

That was probably Trump’s biggest policy disaster. Most of the rest of what he did was a mix of gross corruption and incompetence, with some truly awful and unnecessarily deficit-busting fiscal policy tossed in. That’s really, really bad, but probably not world-class in its disastrous impact.

Trump is a worse human being than Bush, in the sense that he’s throughly and unashamedly corrupt, sleazy, narcissistic, emotionally stunted, loudly bigoted, and pretty much embodies every gross quality one could imagine. I have an extremely low opinion of Bush, but I think it’s unlikely he would sexually assault my niece if they were alone in a room together, which is not something I could say about Trump.


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Response to MatthewG. (Reply #3)

Fri May 7, 2021, 10:14 AM

6. If there is any policy or position that I am most aligned with Trump,

it would be his stance on war (him being against it and try to pull out of them). Though, I have much less knowledge or actual influence on such matter so I can take a much simplistic approach as to I am against it. But as the leader of the country, there are more on the line than simply against it. It has to be done more thoroughly and follow in line with our country's previous and future stance. I do think Trump has weakened the US in the world stage due to some of his stance on the issue.

I think you also forget the impact that Trump have on the country. We were always divided as a country but the divide has widen a whole lot under Trump. I used to be able to argue and agree on some stuff with republicans. Actually, I used to think I lean right (on fiscal issue) more than the left. But now, I can't seem to talk to any of them anymore. Trump made "saying the quiet part out" normal for republicans and they don't think they are wrong for it. It makes any conversations with them extremely difficult. The implicit racism, sexism, etc are imbedded in everything they say now. Trump also made the conspiracy theory fraction in the republican party mainstream. We have our conspiracies on our side but our party leader are mostly very good at keeping away with those CT. Thus, not making them mainstream. To be honest, I think the divide deepened as Trump left office.

So domestically, I think Trump is a way worst president for the country. Trump's only saving grace was that he didn't start a war.

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Response to Claustrum (Reply #6)

Fri May 7, 2021, 10:18 AM

8. Some good points.

Yes, I’d agree with some of us. One of the things that makes Trump uniquely bad is that his sheer awfulness as a human being normalizes a level of awfulness in political discourse, and coarsens and divides the entire country.

In that sense he is somewhat unusual. I don’t think Bush actually led anyone to become a worse person, although his policy decisions certainly killed more civilians than Trump’s.

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Response to MatthewG. (Reply #8)

Fri May 7, 2021, 10:34 AM

10. Also, re: Trump's COVID response.

I think Trump worsen the impact of COVID by magnitudes of 10-100x worst. If we have a normal president that would at least pretend to care about norms and human life. They wouldn't take the stance of anti-mask, anti-shut down, anti-doing anything preventive to COVID.

We would still have some anti-mask people in the country. But it would be 5-10% of the population instead of 30-50%. Then COVID wouldn't spread as bad as it did or we can contain it much better. Local outbreaks are unavoidable as seen in Europe and Asia. But they immediately go into lockdown or shutdown. And some countries like South Korea, never had to shutdown due to their citizens cooperation to masking and other COVID limitations. Their country and their citizens takes even a 10 people outbreak seriously and it is reported widely and seriously in the media and people take proper measure after it. So we suffered both in the human life aspect and economic aspect because of Trump's COVID stance.

So while Trump didn't start a war to claim human lives directly. His COVID stance is responsible for a lot more deaths than Bush IMO.

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Response to MatthewG. (Reply #3)

Sat May 8, 2021, 12:49 PM

12. A relatively competent enemy

is a lot worse. Like it's been said, imagine if Trump were competent.

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